Author Topic: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?  (Read 4458 times)

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CaptainAwesome

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Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« on: May 15, 2008, 00:27:38 am »
Hello guys. I'm new here, registered just now but I'm yet to find some sort of introduction thread so I guess I'll get right to it:

I have been playing around with some very crude normal electrolysis setups for about a year but now I feel it's time I start working on something more "real". I have this idea about getting a lot of thin plates and try to assemble them with extremely little spacing, trying to make the cell more of a capacitor rather than a normal electrolysis cell (even though a realize it would still be electrolysis).

I'm thinking that without an electrolyte the water would work as the dielectric and that when the voltage builds high enough there would be jumps of electrons between the plates and gas would be produced. I guess I think these "jumps" would occur more often and at lower voltage the closer the plates are to each other.

Another part of my project will be to try and constantly run the water through the cell using an electric pump, cooling it in a radiator when needed, pretty much like a normal cooling system in a car. I'm thinking that if the plates are placed very close together the bubbles of gas might want help floating up by running water (from the bottom up) and also that this setup probably would produce a lot of heat.

The reason I want to try this is to find a way to produce without having to add stuff to the water (or have to clean out goo, or care about Cl2, CO2 or any other unwanted side  products being produced).

Now my question is, because I'm pretty sure this must have been though of a lot before, if anyone has tried this and if it's worth for me to test it. Any comments on this are very much welcome because I'll be spending my last lousy student bucks on 2000x1000mm of SS, hosing and some other equipment pretty soon :)

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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 01:10:01 am »
My cell has a .015 gap and is allot like what you are talking about but it is tube cell form. http://ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=287.0 Spike and others are making improved version. One thing I found is I can get production in a six cell series with no additives. IM not sure if its the gap or the hard water in our area though.

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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 16:45:27 pm »
Hey there Captain

The idea you hawe is good, it has been tested before and the conclution "for now" is that you would need more energy to split pure water since pure water is a insulator, a insulator hawe a break point and the break point of pure water is way way high, more in the 10k V area

As you can see in my video's there is no problem to make more than 1L of HHO pr min with tapwater, the problem is the heat it generate since you would hawe to use 3V+ between the neutral plates to get a rapid enough production for boosting a big engine

Another problem you will notice with regular tapwater is the amount of "gunk" you get in your cell, also easy to see in the first video's with tapwater

This cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3pXzc-uEBc hawe 10hr's on it on video 6, notice that there is NO GUNK in that water

I know for a fact that you can get atleast 15L pr min with elyte, this is something that you can use to cut the fueldemand in half on a regular car....

This is just my thought's and i'm shure some don't agree with it

Build it, test it, document it that is my best advice m8  ;D


Mr Brown / H2inICE


CaptainAwesome

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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 17:14:36 pm »
Hey there Captain

The idea you hawe is good, it has been tested before and the conclution "for now" is that you would need more energy to split pure water since pure water is a insulator, a insulator hawe a break point and the break point of pure water is way way high, more in the 10k V area

Ow, ok, I might put that idea about using distilled water aside for a while and focus on using tap water in combination with an effective cooling system.


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Another problem you will notice with regular tapwater is the amount of "gunk" you get in your cell, also easy to see in the first video's with tapwater

Yeah, I noticed, though the water here where I live doesn't seem to produce a lot of it. I guess it's a combination of what's in the tap water and what kind of SS used for the plates, right?


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This cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3pXzc-uEBc hawe 10hr's on it on video 6, notice that there is NO GUNK in that water

Nice, So I'm guessing your local water doesn't have a lot of NaCl in it then? Do you add KOH or something? Or has it got anything to do with what plates you use? (Ti coated? ;) )
Also, is that an electric water pump attached to the cell? Is it a 12v one? how much does it pump /minute?


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I know for a fact that you can get atleast 15L pr min with elyte, this is something that you can use to cut the fueldemand in half on a regular car....

Is that 15L of H2 + O2 or does that include Cl-gas/CO2 from the electrolyte as well? I'm not sure about the chemistry, but when using baking powder as electrolyte I heard there's almost as much CO2 produced as H2.

Just a guess might be:
2NaHCO3 + H2O + Energy = 2H2 + O2 + 2CO2 + 2NaH + Heat

Does anyone know the reaction formula for real? ^^

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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 18:21:41 pm »
the reason the cell is clean eaven after 10 hrs is that I mix the E500 with destilled water and NOT TAPWATER, if you use tapwater in your cell it become a watercleaner (atleast my experience and thought)

yes I use a waterpump to sirculate the elyte now and then, eaven with +nnnn- and 2.5 to 2.6V between the plates i get heat, way less than + - cell and tapwater tho, it pump around 10L pr min, but that is not important

as for how much CO2 the gas contain of with E500 elyte I can't say, I hawent had it tested in lab

I dont think anyone can say for shure how acurate that formula is if it hawent been analysed in a lab

If you can get a MMW of 5+ i'm all ears regarding destilled water in electrolysis, hawent heard anyone done that exept with plasma and that is a completely dif. setup

I'm eaven going to test regular salt in my cell, how fast it is going to eat up my plates and so on

Hope you test with tapwater and see all this for your self rather than me saying it, you can always go for elyte later

Good luck with testing m8

Plenty ppl here that hawe realy good experience with tapwater


Mr Brown / H2inICE

CaptainAwesome

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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 19:23:11 pm »
[...] I mix the E500 with destilled water [...]

[...] as for how much CO2 the gas contain of with E500 elyte I can't say [...]


Ok, I have been trying to figure the chemistry out a little:

By E500 I suppose you mean NaHCO3, Sodium bicarbonate?

Something that I only just learned is that at about 60C and up, sodium bicarbonate will begin to decompose (the hotter, the faster the decomposition):

2NaHCO3 --> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2



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Re: Capacitor setup and not using electrolyte?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 22:55:33 pm »
Yep, you are right about the NaHCO3

I find it simpler to just write E500 Since it is realy easy to find for most ppl in the shop

And this is my point, it hawe to be easy for ppl to make they'r elyte....

This is why salt is next on my list

About the decompose of sodium bicarbonate I can tell you that it has a tiny wite smoke depending the heat you apply to it (depend how much heat from how much Amp your cell draw)

To be honest with you it dont mather that much to me at this point since im also going to test antifreeze as elyte in my cell for winter test's

My goal for now is a 12 month working cell + H2 tank + E85 as support

Realy simple and honest

The fastest way to cut the fuel price we hawe to day down to atleast half

The way I see it is that HHO cell's hawe just about a 10 yr life period before we can go directly to electricity (quite ok by me)

After that we only hawe the energy / heat / home market to think about  ;D


Mr Brown / H2inICE