Author Topic: electric field screening  (Read 15007 times)

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 18:49:16 pm »
Today i made a thought about how important is to know the things like the electric field outside a capacitor is zero.

I'm attempting to find a geometry in which current can be generated from a water cell using high voltage electric fields, dielectrics layers and probably movement too.

I think i found a way to actually force the ions from two different water containers to combine and than reverse the field to accelerate the other ions to combine again thereto generating alternating current.  I think this is what stan called the resonant action... when the ions collide they must generate at least more ion pairs ...

The movement is only needed to try to figure somehow it could work without reversing the field ... but i found that reversing the field is not energy consuming as i though it could be, since if the capacitors simply discharge thru a coil than it will reverse its voltage almost fully already..

The idea came from some comments in a recent patent, where they states that they make an electric shunt between two electric field sources and this shunt allows the current to flow because there is a ground plane shielding the electric field.

Ok

But what i found that should impossible because the electric field will always try to go in the easier path../

But making some drawings i found that if i get a pair of electric field sources and just take a deionization surface on one side of each than connect the deionization surfaces to one another than what i find is that it forms a kind of faraday cage thereto there must be an equipotential surface. If however the dielectric is polarized than the charges adsorbed will run in a circuit at a given voltage derived from the dielectric static polarization.

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2013, 10:45:50 am »
why did meyer write the formulas like this???? nobody would make this mistake by accident... and why is everyone focusing on water?? is it magic? if you find an energy generating phenomena then why make hydrogen when you can use it to power a home/??

how many ions will you have inside water ,if u know the total charge they have and avg. speed then you can calculate emf but how will it break conservation of energy?   

the thing is that many people say the same ,that lorentz law only applies for closed currents and maxwell's displacement current http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current is flawed as it is not a real current, lets say in a capacitor but a pseudocurrent while some circuits are open momentarily this law doesnt apply but I havent confirmed this yet I will have to make some experiments but I haven't got much equipment if anyone cares to make them pm me.

in this schematic I've marked how the forces should be according to lorentz law but the man who made this experiment says that the antenna doesnt rotate..
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:03:57 am by geon »

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 11:08:33 am »
well is impossible to know why he did such mistake.... anyway is indeed clear why he show this formula!

Conservation of energy is the least of the problems.

As paul brown stated when ions are inserted in electric fields the result is electric current the energy actually comes not from the field itself but from the event that generated the ion be it chemical, nuclear or cosmic source.

in water they are in solution and water is a dielectric so they are loosely attracted to one another such that they can actually be separated if a  strong electric field is applied. (according to the equation  meyer indicated)


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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 11:21:56 am »
Geon

From what i learned or what i think i remember i learned in physics displacement current is equivalent to the magnetic field inside a capacitor (thing that shouldn't exist since there is no current flowing in there) so the concept of current flowing thru the vacuum was developed.

In a normal capacitor theres only displacement current during charging and discharging since there is electric fields changing an polarization state is changing.

In water capacitor assuming you restrict the amps polarization never stops happening so there is a constant displacement current, which is function of the applied electric field and physical and  chemical proprieties of the studied water.

Lets guess that why meyer called it the electrical polarization generator.

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2013, 13:06:31 pm »
perhaps does anybody have a function generator to make the Z experiment?

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2013, 17:57:03 pm »
Theres no magic in water its just a dielectric medium that has specific proprieties.

According to what meyer said is possible to use water as electron source somehow generating at the same time hydrogen and oxygen using voltage as a force field.

According to paul brown ions in an electric field forms current. And the power is not provenient from the electric field itself but from the ionizing event.

According to me, ions in water has a certain distance somewhat around 1nm between each other at a given concentration. The force of attraction between them is weak in comparison with molecular bond forces since water is a dielectric medium and acts to reduce the electric field of the ions. Is possible thereto to use external electric field to split or sort the ions apart.

Once the ions are separated:

The ions can be discharged into a metallic surface becoming thereto electrically stable and coming out of the water as hydrogen and oxygen. In this case the discharge of the ions mean generating more electricity already.
As the method of generation is not electrochemical but eletcro-physical the voltage should not limited to 1,24v but instead determined by the number of ions reaching the electrode and the electric fields present to cause the separation aNd the capacitance between the two deionization surfaces.

The idea is two pairs of isolated Electric field sources connected in series but having a dielectric between them and a faraday cage forming two deionization surfaces. As the faraday cage has a dielectric inside and the other field source outside, the charges are localized.

In this system i guess is possible to find a way to discharge ions of both polarities at the same time but the most simple is to discharge only one polarity at time...  and accelerate the undischarged ions to collide...

 or:

The ions can be accelerated to collide with water molecules





 

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 18:33:57 pm »
you need very high ion speeds to break apart water otherwise you only get some heat.. a proffesor told that repulsion of similar charges moving in a line changes to attraction above a certain speed in open circuits so by contrast if the charges moving in a line have speed greater than this and then hit a barrier and stop suddendly conservation of momentum says there will be an explosion ...

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Re: electric field screening
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 20:40:56 pm »
The acceleration is a=E*q/mass

thereto E must be E=a*mass/q

The required acceleration i don't know how to calculate but we can try to figure it out.

I think the density of water would be needed too

The mean free path should be the distance that the ion can travel without colliding with neighbors molecules...   

Having the force divided by the mass is the acceleration. acceleration * time squared/2 = distance    and a*t= v so the velocity squared times mass/2 = energy    than it need to be converted to ev ...

than i think that the reverse direction of this calculations could let to the acceleration needed and so the electric field needed.

I'm not sure because i didn't learned this so well..

but one electron volt is the energy an electron that has a mass of

http://www.ou.edu/research/electron/bmz5364/calc-kv.html
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 21:28:52 pm by sebosfato »