### Author Topic: Free energy from an electric field!  (Read 10894 times)

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 20:52:06 pm »
we could argue Well if you could bent a waterfall in such manner as to make the water to take this different path because of the field this mean it won a velocity in the horizontal direction for say, than where this same velocity came from? is the same velocity it has before but just in another direction.... i guess thats why work is zero... to make the water change its path it used the attraction force from the lines of force to reduce the speed in one direction and converting in other direction..

Thank you for that explanation. I'm not entirely convinced that no work is being performed but cosine of 90 is 0.  My own understanding of physics will have to grow before I am satisfied. So maybe in this situation their really isn't any work. I'm wondering if the equation has limitations because its classical physics but I don't know enough to get into that. Anyway, i think the result of no work is specific to the example.

Your explanation did make me wonder if i could find other examples without this limitation I came across this http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2005/jul/26/electric-fields-move-water-droplets

It wasn't exactly what I was expecting but still very interesting! They are using parallel uniform fields to propel the water molecule.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 21:43:26 pm by Dave »

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 05:00:24 am »
I have another thought about the water stream experiment. I looked up an illustration of the field lines. If you imagine the the charged object is positive(on the left) and the water is one the right (negative dipole being attracted). It seems to me that the water is moving along the field line for a short time.  Since the field lines are the force, the water is traveling parallel along them. So once again I think the work equation holds and cosine is not zero. The water is moving towards the rod along the field lines. The water would stop if it wasn't for gravity.

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 15:45:49 pm »
You may be aware that there are two kind of electric fields, static and electromagnetic (circular)

what if science discarded a component of these electric fields?

I think i'm  discovering how the EPG system work.

If you could use an electric field to acelerate ions they would result in a magnetic field...

Meyer clearly stated that we can indeed use electric fields to perform work if the amps are restricted but what is the meaning of this.

What if you could use the electric field force to sort ions from the air for example?

I had this idea when i tried to think about a sequential ionizer to get millions of volts applied...

when you consider the electric field lines of force you get that positive ions would go in one direction and negative ones in the other direction, but when they arrive at the electrode nothing impeeds it from discharging...

I mean if you had two metallic electrodes the ions can exchange charges with them and consume power and we don't want that.

For example you get plastic tube in form of T, and there air is forced to get in from the middle, and you put an electric field at both exits, but with an insulated electrode not a metallic only... with that you set up an electric field across both exit of gas, well it seems to me that at one side positive ions only should exit and on the other side negative ions... well if you than pass this charged ions into a metallic tube you could collect their electricity right?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 17:10:20 pm by sebosfato »

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 17:03:43 pm »
Exactly!!!!

In the epg, all we would need is a charged gas or liquid. We can move these with an electric field alone. Since moving charged particles have a magnetic field we could induce a current in a coil.

I've been working on this concept for some time now. Hydrogen might be a good choice to ionize. An electron emitter might do the trick. Really any of the halogens would be some what stable also. One thing I can't figure out is how long the gas would last.

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 23:31:18 pm »

Meyer clearly stated that we can indeed use electric fields to perform work if the amps are restricted but what is the meaning of this.

What if you could use the electric field force to sort ions from the air for example?

I had this idea when i tried to think about a sequential ionizer to get millions of volts applied...

when you consider the electric field lines of force you get that positive ions would go in one direction and negative ones in the other direction, but when they arrive at the electrode nothing impeeds it from discharging...

I mean if you had two metallic electrodes the ions can exchange charges with them and consume power and we don't want that.

For example you get plastic tube in form of T, and there air is forced to get in from the middle, and you put an electric field at both exits, but with an insulated electrode not a metallic only... with that you set up an electric field across both exit of gas, well it seems to me that at one side positive ions only should exit and on the other side negative ions... well if you than pass this charged ions into a metallic tube you could collect their electricity right?

My post above this one was meant for the first part of your post. I must of mist the rest

Sounds like a great idea! I wonder how many free ions there are in the air. Also, It seems to me that the Ions would stick to the insulated electrodes rather than passing out the end of the tube. So maybe you would have to discharge the field before they would oxidize and reduce with other electrodes to collect their energy?

You have got me thinking about what Stan talks about when he says voltage performing work. It seems to me that no matter how much you restrict amp flow the voltage drop will never be across the cell. If amp flow is restricted, the cell doesn't gain resistance.  So it will never act like a true capacitor. What I'm think is that the electrons that move through the water have a lot of energy at a high voltage so there electric field will be strong and have an effect on the water without having a voltage drop. The net effect would be a high energy wave moving through the water with very little power lost to the cells resistance. So, the electric force of the electrons are performing work on the water  The voltage drop is across the inductors.

Sorry if this is off topic, I guess its still about the electric force performing work.

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 02:29:42 am »
The hole in thermodynamics

First I would like to say, sorry for my lengthy absence. School is difficult and boring

I've been pondering electric fields ever since first starting this topic and a few days ago I came across something fascinating.
In my opinion, its ignored by physics because it proves simple laws incorrect and needs a lot of complex math to be proven other wise. That being said, I normally don't ever disagree with math but when it comes to the electric field and work, I just can't help it.

her is a clip from a website. I don't have the image, just imagine a closed loop with a static electric field

Let us now consider the special case where point  A is identical with point  B. In other words, the case in which we move the charge around a closed loop in the electric field. How much work must we perform in order to achieve this? It is, in fact, possible to prove, using rather high-powered mathematics, that the net work performed when a charge is moved around a closed loop in an electric field generated by fixed charges is zero. However, we do not need to be mathematical geniuses to appreciate that this is a sensible result. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the net work performed when we take a charge around some closed loop in an electric field is non-zero. In other words, we lose energy every time we take the charge around the loop in one direction, but gain energy every time we take the charge around the loop in the opposite direction. This follows from Eq. (77), because when we switch the direction of circulation around the loop the electric field   on the  th path segment is unaffected, but, since the charge is moving along the segment in the opposite direction,  , and, hence,  . Let us choose to move the charge around the loop in the direction in which we gain energy. So, we move the charge once around the loop, and we gain a certain amount of energy in the process. Where does this energy come from? Let us consider the possibilities. Maybe the electric field of the movable charge does negative work on the fixed charges, so that the latter charges lose energy in order to compensate for the energy which we gain? But, the fixed charges cannot move, and so it is impossible to do work on them. Maybe the electric field loses energy in order to compensate for the energy which we gain? (Recall, from the previous section, that there is an energy associated with an electric field which fills space). But, all of the charges (i.e., the fixed charges and the movable charge) are in the same position before and after we take the movable charge around the loop, and so the electric field is the same before and after (since, by Coulomb's law, the electric field only depends on the positions and magnitudes of the charges), and, hence, the energy of the field must be the same before and after. Thus, we have a situation in which we take a charge around a closed loop in an electric field, and gain energy in the process, but nothing loses energy. In other words, the energy appears out of ``thin air,'' which clearly violates the first law of thermodynamics. The only way in which we can avoid this absurd conclusion is if we adopt the following rule:
The work done in taking a charge around a closed loop in an electric field generated by fixed charges is zero.

Hopefully that wasn't to long of a read. anyway, a static field can force and charged particle around a loop continually without performing work or using energy. Net work is zero because it would violate thermodynamics otherwise. Obviously, something is happening for nothing which isn't supposed to happen. According to thermodynamics no work is being done so if you were to harness this movement and create electricity, thermodynamics would not recognize it. Thats my opinion, and its really something cool to think about.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 19:37:39 pm by Dave »

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##### Re: Free energy from an electric field!
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 07:31:07 am »
About that i got a really good for you.

Didn't the rain drops comes from the water which got heat from the suns energy, than defy the laws of gravity...?

My question is:

Aren't we already using gravity static field reacting with sun heat to generate rain and also energy from this movement?

My question is why it could not be done with an electric field?

I think that if the earth had a bigger mass and rotated little faster there would be rain all nigh long and sun shining  every day.

So if we could have a electrically charged rotating globe with some material that under light or heat defy the electric field and when it rotates back to dark it gains energy from the electric field generating power for example "rain in the system".... what could be done? Reinventing Nature? Playing like Gods?