Author Topic: EEC the mission  (Read 9680 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 270
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2013, 06:24:24 am »
Both the hydrogen and oxygen will be positively charged. Like charges repel, which, in this case allows the two gases to exist in a mixture with very low volatility and yet, when recombined, much more powerful. Who cares where the electrons go, as long as we can keep them off the atoms for a fraction of time. It's if as we are snapping rubber bands... the farther you pull them apart, the stronger the snap back.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2013, 13:43:01 pm »
Bubz

I'm just saying that if you ionize lets say 10 molecules, the electrons you stolen from it is going to make the device highly negatively charged unless it discharge those electrons it gained, or its not going to be able to ionize further molecules. did you got it?

I'm not sure if ionizing hydrogen positively is as easy as to ionize it negatively, i'm going to try to explain that.

If you get one molecule of hydrogen for example 2 proton and 2 electron in a recipient of hydrogen gases, you have a neutral molecule. if you take out one electron from it the molecule should still in a kind of molecular form but the positive hydrogen is going to need to keep proximity to the least electronegative molecule in the recipient... this should be the hydrogen atom just ionized, i'm guessing here that they can share the same electron thereto this electron should travel between the 2 atoms electrospheres...

If instead we add an electron than they are going to dissociate for sure according to the books, but they are not allowed to reform until it loses this electron since there are to electrons in the orbit.... farther like steve pointed

If the oxygen is also filled with electrons it than is not able to form the water molecule i guess... since its going to repel as well...

I'm not saying that this is rather better than ionizing positively.... i'm just talking about to see where it goes.

But the important point is only, where electrons come from and where they go to because in a car you get an isolated system and i guess this is part of the game so i'm trying to think about this. Stan was really smart so he knew about the conservation of charge and i'm sure that he also knew that when you try to separate one ion from its opposite charge source you got to put mechanical work.





Offline Login to see usernames

  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 609
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 07:41:51 am »
does this video do anything for you there seb?

list=UUDnCkvXhKbalqOoDV8G29lQ&index=25

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 02:44:56 am »
I think that he is creating bigger molecules there that why he get this vacuum


Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2013, 13:28:04 pm »
How Electric and Magnetic Fields work in Mass Specs
Electric fields and magnetics field act differently on particles:
Assume we will shoot ions at high speed through a field and separate them: All will have same energy, e.g., 10keV
But this means different velocities because E = 1/2mv2
1. Magnetic Fields Sort Ions according to mass:
Magnetic force = B e v, where B = field, e = charge, v = veloc. So force α veloc.
Compare Hydrogen and Deuterium:
Veloc. of H is 2 times greater (kinetic E = 1/2mv2)
Force on H is 2 times greater
Acceleration (a=F/m), 2 2 times greater (it’s 1/2 the mass)
But, greater v means less time in the field (factor of 2 ) And Displacement α t2, so this means 1/2 the displacement
Net effect: Displacement is 2 greater for H+ than for D+. Conclusion: Ions in a mag. field have circular paths:
m −5 B2r2
e = 4.825 ×10 units of e- charges))
V (B = mag field (Gauss), V = accel. voltage, e is charge (in integer

r2 α kinetic energy α veloc.2
r2 α mass
**Note that an ion with 2 times the mass and a double charge will follow the same path.
2. Electric fields sort ions according to kinetic energy alone:
Force depends on charge alone: Same force for H and D H accel. = 2 D accel.
Time in field: 2 times greater for D than for H But displacement = at2
Therefore: the greater time and slower accel. for D cancel out.
Conclusion: In an electric field, all ions with same velocity/energy take the same path. Electric fields can be used as “energy filters”
r = 2E (r = path radius, E = energy of ions, V = field voltage) Vsector
Utility: Collisions in imperfect vacuum slowed ions (need to filter out)

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 13:35:28 pm »
Meyer clearly stated that we can indeed use electric fields to perform work if the amps are restricted but what is the meaning of this.

What if you could use the electric field force to sort ions from the air for example?

I had this idea when i tried to think about a sequential ionizer to get millions of volts applied...

when you consider the electric field lines of force you get that positive ions would go in one direction and negative ones in the other direction, but when they arrive at the electrode nothing impeeds it from discharging...

I mean if you had two metallic electrodes the ions can exchange charges with them and consume power and we don't want that.

For example you get plastic tube in form of T, and there air is forced to get in from the middle, and you put an electric field at both exits, but with an insulated electrode not a metallic only... with that you set up an electric field across both exit of gas, well it seems to me that at one side positive ions only should exit and on the other side negative ions... well if you than pass this charged ions into a metallic tube you could collect their electricity right?

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC the mission
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 14:02:06 pm »
is possible to imagine reasons why the idea above could not work... is it possible to get around?

One thing that came to my consideration is:

If we are sorting the ions than the ions will itself create a counter electric field that would cancel the original field such that it should reduce the potential applied.... even if not discharging the plates...

well is that what really should happens?


if we get a (+) -------->---------- (-)

and than (+)---->----(-)---<----(+)----(-)

Well my first impression is that if this is true is possible to keep inputing charge at the electrodes  applying a constant potential up to the point where the ions get further apart and virtually separate from each other to a point where their fields are weaker than the applied field... 

At this point their charge could be collected somewhere else....

I'm not guessing that they will stick to the electrode since there is flux of air, i could be wrong but would than be possible to rapidly revert the potential at the electrodes by resonant discharge to be able to discharge them at high potential .... 

I'm guessing that their thermal agitation could help this separation...

Adding mechanic work to it should even reduce the amount of E field required...thought

What if electrolysis work just like this?

When 1,24v is applied the ions can arrive at the electrode and discharge?

If so this would mean that its all about the potential applied not the electric field. And that the error with electrolysis is that we apply an overpotential to solve a problem creating another....since its a process limited in many levels...


Offline Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3607
Re: EEC dielectrics the mission
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 14:49:12 pm »
Well it seems to act as a capacitor but where the capacitance will be a function of the availability of ions...
So is possible knowing how many ions there are in air at least estimate the potential required to be applied to do something...

If the applied voltage potential amps restricted because its in a plastic insulator for example, when you put charges in it it creates an electric field in the direction of where you took of the charges... but right in the middle ions start to get far away from each other... such that it create a counter electric field... such as to reduce the original field. so it acts just like a dielectric... Of course!!!

than thats the dielectric properties of interest to meyer... i mean how difficult is to separate ions in a dielectric... Water is good to dissolve things because of its High dielectric value, meaning that salt for example when is in water its ions has 81 times less attraction to each other because the electric field is reduced by the water separating the ions. of course there are other factors...

He clearly stated that its all about moving and deflecting charges.. .


Its known that at a certain potential applied he air start to conduct some current meaning its being ionized, there to is possible that meyers properly ionized some air and than provided its mechanical separation by action of the pump and electric fields... 


What if you have only one polarity of ions to use?



http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/super/life_sciences/E/E-all.pdf

something about E fields physics 3 material
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 15:06:37 pm by sebosfato »