Author Topic: Theory - Unipolar Pulses  (Read 8170 times)

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 17:29:25 pm »
Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source.  And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.   

See recent discussion.  http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370

And another thing, THIN wire is resistive.  That's why it heats up when too much current runs through a wire.  A thicker wire would not heat up when a thinner wire would because the thicker wire is LESS resistive.

TS

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 17:42:23 pm »
Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source.  And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.   

See recent discussion.  http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370

TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 18:05:35 pm »
Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source.  And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.   

See recent discussion.  http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370

TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..

Actually, I didn't wind them side by side in that case.   I just wound them together as a bundle.  This transformer acted as a 1:1 transformer.  4 of the strands were combined to form the primary side, connected to the cell and the positive of the DC source on one side, connected to the positive side of the diode and a power transistor on the other.  The diode negative connected to the other side of the cell.  The secondary of the transformer, single strand, was simply a trigger for the transistor to turn on and off the current to the primary as it charges and discharges.  What would happen is the primary would charge by the DC power, which would in turn charge the secondary trigger.  The trigger would trip the base of the transistor and stop current flow to the primary from the DC source. Now with the primary charged and unable to discharge to the power source, it instead discharges as a high voltage pulse to the cell.  Once discharged, the trigger lets go of the transistor and allows the primary to charge again and the cycle repeats.

That is the extent that I will describe it.  I do not wish to step on Seiler's toes.  Check out Bedini circuits for some direction too as it is very similar.

TS

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 18:11:07 pm »
Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source.  And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.   

See recent discussion.  http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370

TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..

Actually, I didn't wind them side by side in that case.   I just wound them together as a bundle.  This transformer acted as a 1:1 transformer.  4 of the strands were combined to form the primary side, connected to the cell and the positive of the DC source on one side, connected to the positive side of the diode and a power transistor on the other.  The diode negative connected to the other side of the cell.  The secondary of the transformer, single strand, was simply a trigger for the transistor to turn on and off the current to the primary as it charges and discharges.  What would happen is the primary would charge by the DC power, which would in turn charge the secondary trigger.  The trigger would trip the base of the transistor and stop current flow to the primary from the DC source. Now with the primary charged and unable to discharge to the power source, it instead discharges as a high voltage pulse to the cell.  Once discharged, the trigger lets go of the transistor and allows the primary to charge again and the cycle repeats.

That is the extent that I will describe it.  I do not wish to step on Seiler's toes.  Check out Bedini circuits for some direction too as it is very similar.

TS
Ok,i understand...

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 20:46:20 pm »
Timeshell,
  I just simulated and found the updated resonant frequency and came back to post when I found your reply.  It gets up to 31KV.
I posted my edited script below.  (for whatever reason the first line of the script I downloaded prevented me from editing the frequency.
It was very strange).  Also, the link took me to a couple of diagrams/circuits.  I might have grabbed the wrong one circuit.  It doesnt match the
second (black background gating/relay) circuit.  I will build that later and play with it.

  Anyways, thanks for sharing that.  And sorry for the confusion over the terminology on Gating.  Part of the problem in understanding Stans work was knowing what he REALLY MEANT.
Thanks for clarifying theory vs. experience.

  I will work through some more things before I chime in again...

Thanks for sharing.

Kirk Out!

Tuned version of .CIR file of TimeShell (does not match the relay based circuit, I will push that out after I analyze/test it in the sim).

$ 1 5.0E-6 382.76258214399064 34 5.0 50
w 272 32 272 96 0
v 112 160 112 96 0 5 1047.0 14.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
T 272 96 336 160 0 0.8 0.999 33.736696921230106 -0.4728546576984567 0.999
w 112 96 112 32 0
w 112 32 272 32 0
w 112 224 272 224 0
w 272 160 272 224 0
w 112 160 112 224 0
T 400 224 464 288 0 0.225 0.999 -0.4728546576984609 -0.47285465769845736 0.999
w 336 160 400 160 0
w 400 160 400 224 0
w 336 96 528 96 0
w 464 288 528 288 0
w 528 288 528 96 0
w 400 288 400 416 0
w 400 416 432 416 0
w 464 224 560 224 0
w 496 416 560 416 0
w 560 416 560 224 0
c 432 416 496 416 0 2.5670000000000004E-8 -24467.168164962786
o 1 64 0 35 20.0 51.2 0 -1
o 19 64 0 35 40960.0 6.4 1 -1


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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 20:51:58 pm »
Can you attach the actual file?  I'm using the iPad version of iCircuit and I cannot paste your file definition in it directly.

Yes, the other link just had the schematic.  Enough detail was on it to recreate it in the simulator.  Can you also provide an image of yours?

TS

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 22:39:57 pm »
Here you go.  For me, it is far easier to cut/paste, sorry about that.

Kirk Out!

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Re: Theory - Unipolar Pulses
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 18:11:39 pm »
I started comparing the 8XA circuit diagram to the VIC coil and also to Charles Seilers radiant circuits diagram.  Charles Seiler's radiant circuit is very similar to the 8XA design, specifically in how the WFC is connected to the power, diode and coil.

The significance of this is that the power source is constantly maintaining a charge on the coil during pulsing operations.  I believe this to be a very significant piece to the puzzle of the VIC.

See attached schematic.  Notice the placement of the capacitor in the VIC circuit and that it is grounded to the main power ground.  In the scope, this now causes the WFC to maintain a charge during pulsing.  I have tried this on my real circuit and it does apply.  Not only does the charge stay unipolar, but when resonance is achieved the wave form on the WFC is absolutely beautiful, like that in the 8XA image attached.  AND during my first test run, I got a significantly better result in HHO production on my larger cell at 20mA across the cell than I usually get.  Both the cap and ground must be there or it will not work. . Note, I am using rain water. 

Unfortunately, while tinkering I lost the tune in so I am unable to provide images.

Anyone able to try this out and confirm?   Voltage attenuation is also a must at primary input to achieve clean resonance.  The cap, per simulation, needs to be probably in the 100nF to 10uF range.  May need to try a few different values.

Incidentally, the WFC component is a sub-circuit in iCircuit which in my case is a cap at 25.67nF and a parallel resistor at 80 ohm.

Attached 8XA image from http://www.powergate.us/HHOParts/SM8XaCircuit.htm


TS
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 04:29:36 am by timeshell »