Author Topic: How much HHO do we need?  (Read 9595 times)

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 16:47:03 pm »
Steve,

Check out the website at Hydrogen Engine Center and the quantity of hydrogen they use on a variety of engines they run for power gen. All of their engines are hardened and made to run for 10 plus years on pure hydrogen.

They have 1400 engines in the field and really know their stuff. I think you guys have a new company over their called HyEngine.com or something like that. They are doing some very cool things with Hydrogen motors as well.

But these engines consume great quantities of hydrogen, so very cost effective generation is critical. It is also critical that you do not have to compress it, store it, transport it, and build an infrastructure to support it. Even if it is cheap to make, if you still have to do all of the latter, it doesn't play.

Bear


hi, i try to get the information, but it end up like nothing i can find on the web.
please post some pic of the quantitys of hydrogen on a variety of engines.
thanks alot Dude
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 17:11:25 pm by Xaviarei »

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 12:33:34 pm »
Assuming
Speed 60 km/h
RPM 1300 RPM
Economy 10 L/100 km

We can arrive at 0.1 L / 1 min

Further assuming
0.1 L/1 min
RPM 1300 RPM

We can arrive at
0.1 L/1300 RPM
1 mL/780 RPS
1/780 mL/R for 6 cylinder engine
1/4680 mL/R per cylinder

Conclusion is that while running a 1300 RPM each cylinder would require 1/4680 mL of gasoline for each ignition stroke.

How does that compare to requirements for HHO?

If we have a HHO unit for each cylinder, couldn't we accomplish this for each cylinder now?

TS

Hi TS,

This is a good calculation to start from.. I believe the next step in your calculation would be to compare the amount of Hydrogen to gas you need to run the engine. This can be best done on atomic level. The document in attachment gives a good insite on that. It are the testresults of Meyers HHO Cells. I belevie that this document can help you in finalizing the calculation. I still need to finish the analyses of the document myself.

The interesting stuff starts at page 63

Waterfuel. 

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 12:44:11 pm »
I had a try in completing the calculation, hopefully without to many hickups. If you see one please let me know.

I took over the assumptions of Timeshell:

Assuming
Speed 60 km/h (constant)
Economy 10 L/100 km petrol
6 cylinder engine

We can arrive at 0.1 L / 1 min petrol consumption

If we divide the consumption of 0,1L/min of petrol by 6 cilinders we have 0,0166666 L/min Petrol for each cilinder

If we start from the principle that the Hydrogen in the Petrol is the real energy source of the fuel we need to calculate the amount of hydrogen in Petrol. Based on the wikisource (compositon of petrol) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum, i found out that petrol contains  between 10% to 14% of hydrogen. I will take the average 12% of hydrogen in pertrol.

This means 0,0166666 L/min Petrol for each cilinder x 12% of hydrogen => 0,002 liter/min hydrogen

Now lets calculate the amount of water we need to create the same amount of hydrogen. In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" (see previous attachment) I found out that H20 has 20% of hydrogen in it.

So 0,002 Liter/min hydrogen divided by 20% gives you the amount of H2O needed : 0,01 Liter of H2O/min

Now that we have the H2O amount we can calculate the amount of HHO gas we need to procude:

I found on this site http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem07/chem07088.htm that you get 1334 Liter of HHO gas from 1 Liter of H2O.

So this means 0,01Liter of H2O/min x 1334 => 13,34 Liter of HHO/min (this is an approximate number!)

So for each cilinder you would need +/-13,34 Liter of HHO/min to have the same hydrogen energy values as Petrol.

In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" Stan Meyer calculates how much HHO production he gets in ideal circumstances from one tube out of his tubular cell. That is 0,77L/min of HHO.

If we take this into concideration we would need 17 tubes in a tubular cell to produce the needed amount of HHO to drive one cilinder of our 6 cilinder engine. This tubular cell (17 tubes) would consume 952 watts of power to produce the gas.


All this makes me conclude that it's not enough to just produce great amounts of HHO and inject it into the engine to replace petrol. We should find an efficiĆ«nt way to use HHO/H2O as a fuel. For example we need to manipulate the HHO in such a way that you get a high energized fuel. So My proposal is to start experimenting with the energyzing of the HHO we already got and improve it's energy level. Just like Stan did. I think Hydrocars has a point in his post "Water is Fuel"  : http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2646.0.html

What do you think guys?

 





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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 12:56:08 pm »
Quote
Now lets calculate the amount of water we need to create the same amount of hydrogen. In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" (see previous attachment) I found out that H20 has 20% of hydrogen in it.

Ok, please help me here.  H2O has 20% hydrogen in it?  What is H2O again?   Isn't it it a ratio of hydrogen to oxygen at 2:1 respectively?   Doesn't that mean that 66% of water is hydrogen (not considering impurities).

Am I missing something?

TS

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 13:14:01 pm »
Hi,

With H2O i mean water. Water contains 20% of hydrogen. That's what you can find in the doucment "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" page 61.

Mass Unit of a Water Molecule = (2H x 1Mu) + (1Oxy x 8Mu) = 10Mu's
2H Mu divided by 10 Mu's is 20 %

That's how I understood it :-)

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 13:32:42 pm »
The 20% Hydrogen comes from the comparison of Hydrogen and Oxygen in H2O (water) on a molecular level. That's the same calculation stan used in his testresults.

Hope this helps.

I just wanted to make a point that reaching the necesary amounts of HHO to replace Petrol is not an easy thing. Energyzing the amount of HHO we already are able to produce and converting it into a fuel (converting to Gtnt as Meyer stated) seems to me a faster way to reach our goals.

Waterfuel

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2013, 13:44:44 pm »
20% by mass then?  Oxygen obviously has a greater mass than hydrogen.

TS

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Re: How much HHO do we need?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2013, 15:00:02 pm »
Correct  ;)