Author Topic: Reactance/Resistance/Impedance VIC Coils - Correction 2016-01-14  (Read 19248 times)

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It was brought to my attention in a past experiment with the assistance of a fellow named Charles Seiler that a low resistance was required between a coil and water cell to effectively produce gas. This actually makes sense and I have been looking at this in relation to Meyer's VIC.

If the resistance of the choke is greater than the resistance of the water cell, the current from the choke's inductance will force current through the water.  Thus we end up with conventional electrolysis.  Now, let's say we wind the choke with low resistance instead so that the water cell can completely push back against the current with its own resistance.  Now we get a charge across the capacitor that the current is unable to push through because the resistance of the cell is higher than the chokes resistance.

Update: Confirmed in simulation.  Working now to confirm in model.

2013-02-09:  I have measured the resistance of all the coils I have made to date and can confirm that the only ones I have had any measure of success with have a very low resistance value.  This along with adys15 results leads me to conclude that this is a fact.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2426.msg24546.html#msg24546

2015-02-15:  As far as I can now determine, the resistance of the actual coils is not a particularly important factor in current limiting but does have an important impact when sizing the coils to make sure that that the current generated in the coils during resonance doesn't cause them to burn out.  HOWEVER, the coils REACTANCE in relation to the capacitor is of particular importance for the very same reasons in that if the coils reactance isn't equal to the WFC reactance then no charge can properly develop on the capacitor.

While some of the principles in this topic still apply, the context is out of date.

TS
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 15:36:25 pm by timeshell »

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 08:00:16 am »
hmm The L1 inducter is in series with the water cap which would give us maximum power transfer. I believe a high impedance is necessary to build any voltage

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 08:02:34 am »
If you look at the information we have about Stans vic, it looks like the inducters are in a self resonance. From my tests, the water cap only has a small effect 

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 18:49:16 pm »
If you look at the information we have about Stans vic, it looks like the inducters are in a self resonance. From my tests, the water cap only has a small effect

To an extent I agree.

TS

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 05:37:55 am »
I have been able to confirm in simulation that low impedance coils are required in the VIC to achieve high voltage charge at resonance when using a blocking diode in the circuit.

TS

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 06:13:36 am »
Timeshell,
  Can you post your simulator circuit?  What type of voltages are you getting in the resonant part of the circuit? (as multiples of the incoming voltage).
My read on it (a la Tesla), was that the impedance from the coil pushes the current out of phase from the voltage, so it holds the current up, and then releases it.  Meanwhile, the capacitor charged up with voltage completely, and when the current starts coming in, the voltage is coming out...  With a ping pong effect.

  All a lower impedance will do is change the resonant frequency (making it a higher frequency).  Although, if the inductors are too strong, there is a potential backlash effect whereby the capacitors plates could be taking opposite charges (I saw this on the scope today, testing a new inductor that was an order of magnitude too strong for the little capacitor).

Kirk Out!

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Re: Theory - Low impedance is preferable in VIC Coils
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 14:18:16 pm »
Timeshell,
  Can you post your simulator circuit?  What type of voltages are you getting in the resonant part of the circuit? (as multiples of the incoming voltage).
My read on it (a la Tesla), was that the impedance from the coil pushes the current out of phase from the voltage, so it holds the current up, and then releases it.  Meanwhile, the capacitor charged up with voltage completely, and when the current starts coming in, the voltage is coming out...  With a ping pong effect.

  All a lower impedance will do is change the resonant frequency (making it a higher frequency).  Although, if the inductors are too strong, there is a potential backlash effect whereby the capacitors plates could be taking opposite charges (I saw this on the scope today, testing a new inductor that was an order of magnitude too strong for the little capacitor).

Kirk Out!

I went back to my previous notes and communications with Seiler and realize I may have made an error.   I am adjusting my posts throughout this topic to reflect corrections today.   Essentially, it's not the impedance that is the concern but the resistance that is.   The resistance of the water cell vs the coils is far more important.  If the water cannot push back on the coils resistance, you can't have a voltage buildup.  I will post an excerpt of an email conversation with him about this, which includes my failed attempt when I used a coil with too high a resistance.

Quote
From: Timeshell
Sent: Sat, 11/13/2010 6:53pm
To: Charles Seiler
Subject: RE: High Voltage Electrolysis

Incidentally, the impedence on the transformer is 600 ohms on the primary and secondary and tertiary (not presently using).

On Nov 14, 2010, at 23:57, "Charles Seiler" wrote:

To answer your question, yes, I did try smaller wire. I have a coil with 66 ohms on the primary and secondary and it won't even charge batteries, although it resonates nicely and puts out a crisp 400 volts with only 12 volts input. But it never was much use after weeks of constant experimenting.

On 11/14/10 10:39 AM, Charles Seiler wrote:
I would recommend scraping what you have and buying some wire spools from ebay. My latest charger works better than any others. It is the one with the clear CD case cover. It is a spool of 4 strands of 23 gauge wire, and 1 27 gauge trigger wire, all wound paralell to eachother on a spool. I don't know how many turns are on it, but I would start with 200. This charger works better than any, and boils batteries easily. It produces the same amount of hydrogen with much less power input.

So, as per above, I wound a new multi-stranded coil designed to minimize resistance and then I had success with his setup.   I don't believe his setup is what Meyers had in mind, but I believe it works on the same principle.

TS

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Re: Theory - Low Resistance is Preferable in VIC Coils [CORRECTED]
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 22:57:41 pm »
Timeshell,
  This brings up an interesting point of discussion.  As far as I understand.  The High Voltage is driven by resonance, nothing else.  Not the water, type of water, etc.
The performance of the cell (making HHO) is related to using REALLY HIGH voltage (again, opinion), but along the lines of Tesla and our power distribution system.
They use HIGH Voltage NOT for nothing, but for efficiency.  The resistance drops significantly.  Losses are reduced.

  So, the thought of adding a resistor FEELS wrong to me.  Doing this requires EVEN HIGH voltage to get where you are going.

  Now, thinner wires, tighter coupling/winding of transformers.  These things FEEL right to me.

  Then there is IMPEDANCE, which is a bit difference then regular resistance.  And this is where my knowledge ends.

  High Voltage, Proper Frequency (resonance), and non alternate plate charges in the capacitor (although, something FEELS off when I think of this, and try to visualize a pendulum 1/2 swinging, but I have no proof)  This is what I am studying.

Kirk Out!