Author Topic: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato  (Read 40708 times)

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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #112 on: March 16, 2011, 16:22:09 pm »
@Sebosfato
Question1: when you pulse the TX1 coil "0=off 12V=on" what do you get at TX2 coil on different frequency?
Stan said unipolar pulses. For example 12V in secondary 150V out.
What does this signal look like?

My guess: When we talk about "Resonant Charging Choke" is has to be DC pulse to charge a capacitor. So above zero.
The TX2 is stepping up the TX1 signal as PULSE so it is a PULSE transformer. Stan said just add windings on the TX2 to get more voltage.
When the frequency is adjusted into the TX1 the TX2 gives out the same frequency.
This makes sense because the TX4 and TX5 are "Resonant Charging Chokes" dual in line with the capacitor to restrict amps.
As a result the water capacitor would charge due "amp restriction"
Normal "Resonant Charging Choke" charges Vout=2*Vin the capacitor but an WFC cell has the
amp restriction (dual"Resonant Charging Choke" valve) and can not discharge.


Question2:What is the frequency to make the "Resonant Charging Choke" choke the amps?
What does this signal look like?

My guess: This is the PULSE frequency 50% duty cycle.
Should it go into resonance with the wfc (LC resonance) then it "Restricts Amps" or should it be adjusted on the wfc RC charge time?
Notice that the C is not constant so it has to be regulated to maintain resonance.
When resonance occurs AC is created (notice we must only use DC pulse).


Question3:What signal is the TX3.

My guess: DC pulse or AC, I have no idea because the TX2 pulse is the same frequency the TX3 picks-up?
Or on resonance ("Resonant Charging Chokes" and WFC) it senses a AC signal. But then we do not have DC pulse going into the "Resonant Charging Choke" or the blocking diode makes it DC pulse?


It doesn't make it clearer to me at this moment.

br,
Webmug

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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #113 on: March 16, 2011, 18:20:24 pm »
Hello Webmug,


1 :


When Tx1 first turn on (pulse on) the diode will be blocking the current therefore the tx5 coil send a negative voltage field to the cell in reference to ground, when the pulse terminates there is no residual energy left in the core, so the cell discharges the negative field into the ground but while doing so it act as a primary, so it induce now in the tx2 and tx4 coils thru the diode (open during pulse off) a positive field in the cell in reference to ground. The current cannot flow thru the tx5 coil cause there is already another current in it flowing in the opposite direction so the cell get charged now positively or you have now a B+ high voltage field. When 50% of the off period has passed the B-field has reached 0v and start to get positive until the point where the next pulse is applied again.


As you got initially a first negative pulse (in relation to ground) and than 180° later you got another positive pulse (in relation to ground), you clearly doubled the frequency and you got amp restricted cause the positive and negative are not being applied at the same time and also because the circuit that induces the positive restrict the ability of the positive pulse to pass current thru its source so this fact takes voltage to the upper limits cause impedance is maximum. 


The secondary is being feed magnetically by a resonant tank and is connected in series with contrary polarity so the current cannot flow. Actually it can and it does but is only ma to charge up the cell as a whole.


So tx5 is tuned it resonates acts as a secondary during pulse on and primary during pulse off,


The tx2 coil and tx4 act also as secondary but during the pulse off, when the capacitor reaches 0v it start acting as a primary together with tx1 to induce in the tx5 coil the negative pulse once again during pulse on.


Is it clear to you? .


2


I think that the circuit is tuned to electrical resonance but at a certain high voltage field level water breaks down. The wave form will be exact what stan showed across the cell.


The tx5 coil signal should be ac so as tx3 at resonance. At resonance as the fields will be completely out of phase 0 current should flow thru the electrodes,thus become only static electric fields. However some losses must occur and as we are doing it dc the resonance must satisfy to restrict the amps to certain degree as to be able to maintain a dc offset. Is like the voltage between the plates never get 0 during the pulsing operations. 


My best guess is that we can do take the resonant frequency of the water like stan describe and design the electrical resonance in accordance with the frequency and impedance requirements but initially I believe we should go for a 5 to 10khz electrical resonance and than try to detect the water resonant frequency when the resonant action inside the cell takes place to trigger it only need the high voltage. Something tells me that maybe this resonant action is what need the amps to be restricted too...well i don't know...


Stephen meyer showed something like the resonance frequency was 500 Hz and the water resonance seemed to be 14khz... however if you analyze his graphics he had the unipolar pulse happening but the resonance occurs pulse yes pulse no. Than in the other graph he shows the fields in the water. This was sure for tap water. 




Again stan talked about secondary to charging choke ratio, and I think that here lies the deal.


If you take the primary to secondary ratio, it is not important cause it does not even have anything to do with the secondary.


we must follow this path


TX1 ___>TX5____>TX2    ->|  Tx4


1° we need to determine tx1 to tx5 ratio. This will be the increasing step voltage per pulse. But initially we should think about current!


I guess if we start from 12v 5 amps


If we have a 1:5 ratio being tx1:tx5 we should have 60 volts induced in the tx5 coil and a maximum of 1 amp can flow thru it.


Now we take this 60v and 1 amp. Under resonance the only parameter that will hold will be the impedance, the voltage will not be 60v under resonance but much higher cause the current will be 90° away from current and so voltage will be the product of the recirculating amperage times the reactance, so lets say if you have say 10kohm reactance and 1 amp flowing you will get 10kv across the coil, so the secondary will receive an ever increasing voltage according to the amount of energy accumulated in the tank. Actually the secondary if is even bigger than the tx5 coil an even higher voltage will be applied during pulse off. Basically as the diode implies that tx4 and tx5 become a current source if the current is restricted the voltage goes to infinity. This is certainly the deal.


If the resonance is too damped you need to get more voltage in the tx5 coil  from the primary

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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2011, 18:22:17 pm »



Again we need energy accumulated in the cell, energy potential...

ahh
the vic have ac field but form unipolar voltage fields-

What you think about?

Br
Sebos


The Stephen  meyer patent is very smart in the sense that whenever the resonance signal is lost or mis-phasing it is readily taken in the reverse polarity in the 3 phase thing. If it do really lose resonance. Really is a very intelligent way it amused me that i never got a look in that patent with patience.


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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2011, 20:05:39 pm »



Again we need energy accumulated in the cell, energy potential...

ahh
the vic have ac field but form unipolar voltage fields-

What you think about?

Br
Sebos


The Stephen  meyer patent is very smart in the sense that whenever the resonance signal is lost or mis-phasing it is readily taken in the reverse polarity in the 3 phase thing. If it do really lose resonance. Really is a very intelligent way it amused me that i never got a look in that patent with patience.


@Sebosfato
Thanks for the better explanation!

What I have tested is resonance of the coils and wfc connected. This was AC at the B- B+. My wfc cell has a capacitance of 1.23mF and resistance measured @200kOhms gap of 2mm in tap water! 40pF in air.
When I disconnect the wfc and pulse it with DC pulse (12V) it charge till 2.8V. That what it can hold due current flow.
I see slow discharge curve RC time. So it is a real capacitor.

My primary TX1 pulls 100mA at 12V DC pulsed. And get 160V @TX2. But no current!!! Or very little uA.
I think the magnetic field is not created enough to charge the wfc cell to create new PULSE at the OFF pulse.

When I pulse the TX1 and check the TX5 voltage it measures 15V just on the core.
Coils TX2,TX4,TX5 have 2000wnd, TX1 600wnd. All 30agw.

Guess my core is not good!

br,
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Little news.
« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2011, 20:40:46 pm »
Little News.


I was performing some tests and i discovered the misterious problem in my thing here. My signal was inverted, now when the duty cycle is 0 the transistor turns off. Now is working ok. Perfect! Still not switching well because of the interference of the 120hz buts ok.


Cause i tell you i pushed the frequency up and found the resonance, the oscope canot see it but the voltage in the water came up to 250 v pushing some 100w power into the unity. But i guess is not yet tuned to resonance. Now i'm going to make the feedback circuit to be able to tune.


I'm not sure if the primary is in the right configuration in relation to the orientation need to check. But seems a good news to me.




@webmug


If the capacitance was in air 40pf cannot be bigger than 3,5 nf with the water inside of it cause the factor is 81.


You must mind the frequency and the primary orientation. The first pulse must go to the inter tube in relation to the isolated ground capacitance.


I notice that the cell reaches high voltages but than after the pulse is turned off that the inner tube always become the negative and the outer the positive.






And if i short the leads of the cell and then reopen there is still 2v there.




I'm using grain oriented but i think would work with ferrite however the ferrite has a saturation level much small- It could be not desirable if is to resonate..


I will chech the water resistance cause it is the since a while..


My primary and chokes has 24 awg wire. about 600 turns


the secondary has 28awg bout 1000turns


wish i could have yet patience to wind more turns... =)


got to go
see ya
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 21:00:37 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: Little news.
« Reply #117 on: March 16, 2011, 22:19:03 pm »
@webmug


If the capacitance was in air 40pf cannot be bigger than 3,5 nf with the water inside of it cause the factor is 81.
Yes, that's what I also thought. It is a mistery.
Dynodon and Donaldwfc has micro farad and not nano farad in water.
Quote
You must mind the frequency and the primary orientation. The first pulse must go to the inter tube in relation to the isolated ground capacitance.


I notice that the cell reaches high voltages but than after the pulse is turned off that the inner tube always become the negative and the outer the positive.






And if i short the leads of the cell and then reopen there is still 2v there.
I also have 2V after I short the leads of the wfc.

Quote
I'm using grain oriented but i think would work with ferrite however the ferrite has a saturation level much small- It could be not desirable if is to resonate..

I will chech the water resistance cause it is the since a while..

My primary and chokes has 24 awg wire. about 600 turns


the secondary has 28awg bout 1000turns


wish i could have yet patience to wind more turns... =)


got to go
see ya
Curious what your wfc cell specs are. Gap size, resistance, capacitance etc.


br,
Webmug

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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #118 on: March 17, 2011, 03:18:23 am »
My wfc is close to the spec stan gave buts little bigger and also the gap. my gap is 2mm and the tubes are 4 inches i think, oh they are also of higher diameter, not very close to stan specs in the end hehe...


But now i tell you, before i went to the university i tested it again a bit and i could see the step charging effect, it happens when my frequency is set to the max of the pll.


And only between ground and positive choke just as i said it would be, the tx5 coil has probably ac in it. I see that it charges with steps and the step seems to be of a lower frequency, maybe in the audio range. But i think that i'm applying 160khz to the primary as the pll frequency, but i'm not sure cause the pc scope don't read it. I can only see the step charging cause it happens for some mili seconds..


Or i'm hitting a harmonic or the pll is already tuning to the water resonance, well only with good eq i can determine what is happening.


Tomorow i will call the teacher and try to set an apointment to try to get my hands into some equipments.. .












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Re: Stan Resonance finally cracked! by Sebosfato
« Reply #119 on: March 17, 2011, 10:02:21 am »
Man i think that i understood the working of the alternator.


The frequency of the resonance will be the three phase signal frequency there are two chokes connected to each phase with a diode conducting and the other with the diode non conducting, this chokes are connected to 2 capacitors serially connected, than the middle between the capacitors is the ground i'm talking about Ref. each phase have the same set of chokes having the same capacitors values...


This will be important cause the one choke will not resonate only with the other choke in its core but with the other phase sets and so on...


Thats why stephen meyer used a switch in each termination end that select to each cell tube goes the positive or negative goes respectively. Oh boy this is so simple, i'm asking my self why i didn't finished yet my project. I'm a kind that keep thinking...


The frequency seems to be 468 hz for the stephen patent and the impedance matched to 10 ohms (dead short almost)


 So the fields are applied in counter phases with a high voltage magnification cause of the resonance.

Ii think tho the resonate waveform Steve exampled was 13khz?I think in order to get the polarization we are looking will be a subharmonic of the natural atoms resonate frequency becawz its slowed down due to the alignment voltage being applied.WFC memo 424 explains alot about the resonate action im sure you have read ...  parts of it get simpler to understand the more you study.Im thinking ther must be a certain charge in order to get the action even with the correct waveforms.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 12:48:39 pm by newguy »