Author Topic: Everything works!!! in theory  (Read 10229 times)

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 10:10:37 am »
I have found the diode actually hinders the process, if you have a diode you actually stop the circuit from resonating (at least at this stage, there maybe some need in the future to try the diode) as the circuit works by bouncing the charge through the inductor to make the field collapse increasing the voltage potential on the plate. As for the chokes the secondary on the transformer acts as my choke in this system, with the further developments there may be the need for a dedicated choke.
 A video showing the start of resonance is not very interesting to watch. I use distilled water so that straight DC is actually quite slow (we are talking little to no production) thus when i used the circuit and got some production i was impressed enough to push on with the theory and go further.


Thanks for the Vid Alan, i have done that, blown the end out on SS tubes, done HV power supplies and lost a section of roof from my shed going down the Tesla idea. What happens is that the voltage potential is keep at max and arcs inside the HHO mix due to its low dielectric properties. HHO + Spark in a confined space is not good. This theory runs on the idea of once the voltage starts to break apart the water the voltage drops inline with production vs amps introduced to the system, also as your not forcing more amps onto the plate but letting the charge circulate through the circuit there is not the variables there to promote arcing.

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 16:49:24 pm »
I have found the diode actually hinders the process, if you have a diode you actually stop the circuit from resonating (at least at this stage, there maybe some need in the future to try the diode) as the circuit works by bouncing the charge through the inductor to make the field collapse increasing the voltage potential on the plate. As for the chokes the secondary on the transformer acts as my choke in this system, with the further developments there may be the need for a dedicated choke.
 A video showing the start of resonance is not very interesting to watch. I use distilled water so that straight DC is actually quite slow (we are talking little to no production) thus when i used the circuit and got some production i was impressed enough to push on with the theory and go further.


Thanks for the Vid Alan, i have done that, blown the end out on SS tubes, done HV power supplies and lost a section of roof from my shed going down the Tesla idea. What happens is that the voltage potential is keep at max and arcs inside the HHO mix due to its low dielectric properties. HHO + Spark in a confined space is not good. This theory runs on the idea of once the voltage starts to break apart the water the voltage drops inline with production vs amps introduced to the system, also as your not forcing more amps onto the plate but letting the charge circulate through the circuit there is not the variables there to promote arcing.

Hi CE,
 
You say that you see resonance without using the diode and that you have nice production, till the FET was blown?
 
Steve
 
 
 

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 19:43:56 pm »
I have found the diode actually hinders the process, if you have a diode you actually stop the circuit from resonating (at least at this stage, there maybe some need in the future to try the diode) as the circuit works by bouncing the charge through the inductor to make the field collapse increasing the voltage potential on the plate. As for the chokes the secondary on the transformer acts as my choke in this system, with the further developments there may be the need for a dedicated choke.
 A video showing the start of resonance is not very interesting to watch. I use distilled water so that straight DC is actually quite slow (we are talking little to no production) thus when i used the circuit and got some production i was impressed enough to push on with the theory and go further.


Thanks for the Vid Alan, i have done that, blown the end out on SS tubes, done HV power supplies and lost a section of roof from my shed going down the Tesla idea. What happens is that the voltage potential is keep at max and arcs inside the HHO mix due to its low dielectric properties. HHO + Spark in a confined space is not good. This theory runs on the idea of once the voltage starts to break apart the water the voltage drops inline with production vs amps introduced to the system, also as your not forcing more amps onto the plate but letting the charge circulate through the circuit there is not the variables there to promote arcing.
Looks like you have one side of the coin (so to speak)...nice work! (can you show a picture/ circuit)
Check http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg18827.html#msg18827

As I can explain it what you have:
You used the secondary coil as a choke on resonance with a capacitance wfc cell?

What I think is that one part is correct (the secondary coil resonance) but chokes are needed.
This diode (aka Blocking diode) is needed to make a double pulse and creates positive and negative IMPULSES from the chokes to charge the capacitance wfc cell. The chokes limits the current and increases the voltage of the wfc cell.

The whole RLC network (VIC) are the coils (PRIM, SEC, PICKUP, CHOKE1, CHOKE2, WFC) all have inductance and capacitance seen as a RLC network on resonance.  But diode is blocking resonance into the choke... so resonance (self resonance Cp/Rs/L) is in the SEC coil. As a whole RLC network connected to the SEC it influences the SEC resonance, frequency is shifting...

The capacitance and resistance in the wfc cell are changing due the HHO production between the plates so a PLL is needed to hold it on resonance. When water is pumped through wfc cell plates HHO production is increased.

One SM cavity contains multiple wfc cells, all VIC (RLC networks) with PLLs due differences in H2O/HHO between the plates.

I think your FET is burning up, because the voltage exceeded the max. threshold voltage it could handle, due to resonance. SM said that the voltage could go as high as possible what the components can handle.
Here comes the GATE frequency, to limit/regulate the voltage and current on the SEC and also the wfc cell CHARGE.

br,
webmug

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 05:44:35 am »
Thanks for your reply web, just some small things to bring to light,
Firstly, the pulse doubler, I believe, is how his transformer is connected, by having the 3 secondaries, you get your first pulse from the magnetic coupling of the transformer, then as the first secondary's magnetic field collapses this causes the other secondaries to hold their magnetic fields, as the current is still flowing. Once the field has collapsed there is nothing else forcing current flow, so your other fields collapse (second pulse).


As for your theories on the diode, I am sure that there is not a lot that a diode can do except block the flow of current. Therefore i would say that it is used to hold charge on the positive plate. FYI, it has been known to happen that when i diode fails it can result as a resistor on the line rather than a diode. This would allow the current to flow in both directions but with a non determined resistance.


Some more things to understand about this method is that the amount of resistance in your cell has no bearing on your resonant frequency and thus is not part of my initial equation, the fluctuation in the capacitance of the test cell is more my main concern. I am hoping that as the circuit moves in and out of resonance that the magnetic field strength will fluctuate in strength. This will mean that i could use the strength of the magnetic field to "tune" the circuit as it produces gas.


As i said above the resistance of the cell does not effect the resonant frequency, what it does effect is the amp consumption of the circuit. This is where your efficiency calculations can come into it.


Anyone know the resistance of water? We know that the more electrolyte there is the lower its resistance, this also means the lower the voltage that the circuit will ascertain before reaction. So if the resistance of your cell is really high due to the lack of "impurities" (electrolyte) you will need a lot of "watts" to penetrate, that is why brute force electrolysis is so in-efficient. An RC circuit at resonance works like a reciprocating "tank circuit". This means that minus your loses through overcome resistance, each cycle doubles your voltage potential with no diminishing returns on your amps (minus the "consumed" amps through the resistance of your circuit). Now resistance is calculated as R=V/A (R is Resistance, V is Voltage and I is Ampere), so as you increase voltage the required amps is reduced. This works 2 fold, the resistance of your components losses are reduced as there is more volts in the circuit therefore less amps required (by required i am referring to what is commonly called "consumed"), Now back to the water, as you increase voltage your resistance drops, so the resistance in water drops. This drop in resistance continues in each cycle until all of the amps that have been accumulated by the circuit are used. This is your gas production.


Now gas production at 12v 1500ma is not a lot, but gas production at Xv @ 1500ma is quite considerable. Now why did i use "X" in the above? X represents the voltage requirement for 99% of the amps to pass through the water in the cycle time of the circuit. the remaining 1% (and arbitrary number) is to maintain the voltage level in the process. If all of the amps are allowed to pass through the cell the voltage level will drop and you will need to bring it up again.


Now if this is what Stan was doing, his disclosed work is over 10 steps ahead of me in increasing its efficiency. But I, like everyone else, don't know and understand his work to the point of replication successfully. So i have taken a different line. I have looked and read his patents, gone through all of his work i could find and isolated what i think is the "core" method used. Now i am testing my idea. All my notes and "theories" on this i am posting here for reference and to log it in for everyone to see.


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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 18:08:38 pm »
the goal is to restrict amps
there are many ways to do this, thus different methods, and different systems
ex
... custom resistor
... pulsing under leakage threshold (voltage control)
... disconnecting power supply upon amp surge
... using magnetic field (inductive reactance)
...

all of the above are common principles in electrical circuits, which is why he says it in the patents, and mentions them in videos, but does not patent them specifically!

go to the common electrical principles and this stuff makes more sense, Stan was learning over the years, so we have to learn too, and he wasn't learning about wfc secrets, he was learning about electronics and electrical systems, and then he put these into practice

he says variations will be evident to those that are skilled in the art, what does he mean? other wfc inventors? or other people skilled in the art of electrical engineering and physics?

when you get into the art, his diagrams and stuff look exactly like the diagrams in the text books

maybe you need new physics to explain the process, but you don't need new electronics to build it

the only difference between Stan's education and a common engineer/scientist is that he went and learned exactly what he needed to, and didn't care about the "full degree program" and graduating with an expensive piece of paper

for example, the 3-23 VIC is KISS, just the required coils on the core with the desired design properties (not saying it's 'easy', but if you understood the design principles then it would be 'simple')

the 6-1 VIC is an advanced design, not-so-KISS, but if you break down the principles, then it's still as KISS as it possibly can be, but you have to learn the desired principles before you go engineering your own advanced systems

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 05:41:52 am »
the goal is to restrict amps
Hi Donald, Good pick up but in my understanding, this has multiple meanings and by itself has multiple meanings. In his patents, there is one on the method itself, there is a chart relating to the quality of the water and the ampflow that we required/pulled.


there are many ways to do this, thus different methods, and different systems
ex
... custom resistor
... pulsing under leakage threshold (voltage control)
... disconnecting power supply upon amp surge
... using magnetic field (inductive reactance)
...
These above all have different side effects; custom resistor - defeats the Kiss principal and would be difficult to get correct; Pulsing under leakage voltage -  this would rule out his "voltrolysis" theory, also as you increase voltage you decrease ampere resistance; Disconnecting the power supply - i assume you are referring to some sort of self healing fuse; using a magnetic field - You might want to read up on this, Inductive resistance doesn't "restrict" amp flow it actually "restricts" change in amp flow.


all of the above are common principles in electrical circuits, which is why he says it in the patents, and mentions them in videos, but does not patent them specifically!

go to the common electrical principles and this stuff makes more sense, Stan was learning over the years, so we have to learn too, and he wasn't learning about wfc secrets, he was learning about electronics and electrical systems, and then he put these into practice
This i agree with to some degree, he hasn't discovered a new process, he has simply found a new use for something already known but not implemented. You are assuming that this is something that comes under electrical systems broad area of knowledge, wasn't Mr Meyers a Radio communications engineer for the army?


he says variations will be evident to those that are skilled in the art, what does he mean? other wfc inventors? or other people skilled in the art of electrical engineering and physics?

when you get into the art, his diagrams and stuff look exactly like the diagrams in the text books
Variations will be once someone understands the process there will be multiple ways to accomplish it. "there is more than one way to skin a cat"


maybe you need new physics to explain the process, but you don't need new electronics to build it
This i will argue, did you know there is different laws of physics for each sub-division, and the "laws of physics" are blanket policies. More a revert to answer then a definite. No new laws needed just more sharing of information.


the only difference between Stan's education and a common engineer/scientist is that he went and learned exactly what he needed to, and didn't care about the "full degree program" and graduating with an expensive piece of paper

Its a common thought that he went to university to talk to A.P. not to study anything.

for example, the 3-23 VIC is KISS, just the required coils on the core with the desired design properties (not saying it's 'easy', but if you understood the design principles then it would be 'simple')

the 6-1 VIC is an advanced design, not-so-KISS, but if you break down the principles, then it's still as KISS as it possibly can be, but you have to learn the desired principles before you go engineering your own advanced systems
Can't comment on this as I believe that there is more here then we understand (well duh moment). But as said before i have a theory, which is well explained above.


As this last weekend saw zero improvement to my project as my partner decided we needed some new additions to our walls from IKEA I will update once this gets underway, will try for some photo's too.

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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 16:46:24 pm »
Yes Stan worked in the military on some radar type things, and that is exactly the kind of concepts he was using for the VIC, just like Webmug posted the other day, a link to a book about Pulse forming Networks, used in radar and microwave power supplies, all the electronic theory is there about resonant charging chokes and blocking diodes and pulse frequency doubling and everything, the thing is he used these principles in a power system designed to power the wfc as a resonant cavity, instead of a microwave power system that operates a magnetron which is a resonant cavity of a different design at a different frequency.

Inductive Reactance is only one thing in the equation, when you hit resonance the impedance becomes infinity, because you add the inductor and capacitor reactance in parallel which gives you 1/0 = infinity, (look up the equation, it's the same for resistors in parallel), but this is for the 3-23 VIC which I am not working on right now.

Right now my focus is school, but next on the list is the previously listed method, as described here:

"
Quote
This is excited by a high power pulse generator which, together with the cell capacitance and a rectifier diode, forms a charge pump circuit. High frequency pulses build a rising staircase DC potential across the electrodes of the cell until a point is reached where the water breaks down and a momentary high current flows. A current measuring circuit in the supply detects this breakdown and removes the pulse drive for a few cycles allowing the water to "recover".

Read more here: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1268.msg13450#msg13450


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Re: Everything works!!! in theory
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2011, 05:32:08 am »

Yes Stan worked in the military on some radar type things, and that is exactly the kind of concepts he was using for the VIC, just like Webmug posted the other day, a link to a book about Pulse forming Networks, used in radar and microwave power supplies, all the electronic theory is there about resonant charging chokes and blocking diodes and pulse frequency doubling and everything, the thing is he used these principles in a power system designed to power the wfc as a resonant cavity, instead of a microwave power system that operates a magnetron which is a resonant cavity of a different design at a different frequency.

Inductive Reactance is only one thing in the equation, when you hit resonance the impedance becomes infinity, because you add the inductor and capacitor reactance in parallel which gives you 1/0 = infinity, (look up the equation, it's the same for resistors in parallel), but this is for the 3-23 VIC which I am not working on right now.

Right now my focus is school, but next on the list is the previously listed method, as described here:

"
Quote
This is excited by a high power pulse generator which, together with the cell capacitance and a rectifier diode, forms a charge pump circuit. High frequency pulses build a rising staircase DC potential across the electrodes of the cell until a point is reached where the water breaks down and a momentary high current flows. A current measuring circuit in the supply detects this breakdown and removes the pulse drive for a few cycles allowing the water to "recover".

Read more here: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1268.msg13450#msg13450
to Donald,
Radar type things, also you are saying that "this is exactly what he was doing", if i had a dollar every time someone said that... You may think that is what he was doing but until you replicate it you won't know. Also you assume a lot from other peoples posts. School is a good place to concentrate, you may learn to skip the B & C steps there, I need the B & C steps.


I am not copying other members ideas or projects. I put down the method that i am testing with the principals, also a brief description of what is happening. If you feel what you are saying is how the system works then  that is a discussion for you own thread. All I am putting down is the proof of concept before further development. Now if the concept of OU production through circuit resonance is how it works then i should see it here. Maybe not 1700x over unity but if i can get to 130% or higher that would be enough to further look into improving it. While i understand that you have strong feelings about your method I encourage you to go down that path. My understanding is that every process or reaction runs on a principal, adjusting and slightly modifying a principal to promote the ideal environment for what your trying to achieve will always be better than just proof of concept.


Update to my project, I need to purchase some more bits for my Dremmel to finish the edges off<to note on this even in testing situations you will need to clean up anywhere you have made cuts into S/Steel, the cuts splinter and can create small spikes, a simple sanding stone can clean these up for you. I like to bevel the edges to a blunt point to ensure that it can't interfere with your calculations>. Once complete i will remeasure combined Capacitance and set it up with my setup to see if i can hit a nice point of resonance to show everyone.