Author Topic: Crampton and Meyer TOTB  (Read 2820 times)

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Crampton and Meyer TOTB
« on: January 26, 2011, 02:12:13 am »
last modified
26 1 2011 Clarified comments in acoustics and dowel spacers
27 1 2011 Added PKFE pdf Chapter 10
29 1 2011 Comment why greater length tubes need bigger gap
30 1 2011 OT8 anomaly and relation to mass balance
The Meyer and Cramton Cell Thinking Outside The Box
 Subjects: Vibrational Axes, Acoustic Cell Design and HHO Bubbles 
Meyer Cell:  The outer tube has a greater ablity to vibrate than the inner tube
                     Supported by the inverted 7 bracket

Cramton Cell: The inner tube has the greater abliity to vibrate than the outer tube
                      Supported by the "Z "bracket

Meyer Cell:  The gap is maintained at the top by plastic  non- conductive dowels
                 that limit the amount of vibration within certain amounts.           (Adjust amount of x y translation by adjustng the length of the two perspex rods or spacers)
Cramton Cell: The gap and amount of  x y translation is maintained by the use of adjustable non-conductive bolts
Meyer Cell:  The slots or notches are on the outer tube  which vibrates but has greater mass.

Crampton Cell The slots or notches are on the outer tube which vibrates but has the greater mass

 In both cases, the larger diameter tube of roughly the same height of the inner tube will need to be adjusted to be able to vibrate sympathetically.  (Tune within 5 hz of each other) Also reducing mass difference between the inner and outer tubes might be helpful which is what is being done in a partial way by  the creation of slots but the major goal is acoustic equivalence
(One way to reduce mass of the outer tube,and maintain the same length and substantially the same acoustic frequency is to mill out grooves along the length of the tube. A top down view  of the tube would resemble a gear) Another way would be to drill many holes along the length of the tube but to prevent gas escape the holes are to be drilled at an upward angle into the tube. in that manner the tube is lightened in mass, the bubbles that a formed rise go up , not down the angled hole and because of a venturi effect and differences in the density of the bubble filled column and  the non-bubble filled water outside the tube, the water rushes in to create an upward  flow within the tube)  enhancing bubble flow. (pat Pend)
 Think tuning fork!
Both legs of the standard laboratory tunning fork are same mass and acoustically equivalent.
For example in PICT066.jpg  OT8
has a greater wall thickness than the other tubes. Is a shorter IT8  now necessary to compensate for greater mass of OT8 or is it shorter to  compensate for a smaller tube gap which affects the acoustic coupling and strength of sympathetic vibration or the acoustics?
7 of 8 tubes sets with the thinner wall thickness have IT lengths greater than  that of the OT. One tubeset  (TS8) has a thicker
tube wall for the outer tube and it in this case the IT is shorter.

Concept:Think of the Cramton cell as an inside-out Meyers Cell !

(at least in terms of vibrational freedom) with the vibrational guides being on the inside tube of the Meyers Cell and the vibrating tube on the outside and in the Cramton cell with the vibrational guides being affixed to outside tube and the vibrating tube being on the inside.

Similarities regarding vibrational freedom:

The Z spring (flat spring) allows for vibration in the z axis and x axis but y
axis is somewhat restricted by the relative inability to move in both the x and y axes equally because of the flat nature of the Z spring.  It has the abilty to move forward and back but not as well side to side due to twist torsion resistance of the flat spring
Likewise the inverted 7 bracket allows for some vibration in the z axis (up and down or vertical )and
x axis( forward and back) but again the flat nature of the inverted 7 bracket restricts vibration along the y (side to side) axis.

To improve the Cramton cell the mass of the inner tube needs to be reduced in mass to increase its ablity to vibrate. (  Use longitudinal grooves on inside of inner tube (same area for capacitance and area but mass matching)( think lands and grooves as in a rifle barrel with no twist or the  gear inside of a Wankel rotary)  Also this would allow the Z spring (because it would not be supporting as much weight) to be thinner, which would increase oscillation in the vertical or z axis and would allow the Z spring or bracket to be narrower which would make it more flexible in both the x and y axes because of less twist torsion resistance.
Regarding the Meyer Demonstration Cell, Stan tried to lighten up the weight of the outer tube by using a thinner gauge 0.035 for the outer tube than the inner tube (0.049) which allows a closer mass match between the tubes and to allow greater vibration in the x,y and z axes. Also by having two slots at the top of the outer tubes he doubled the mass removed from the outer
 In church organ tuning the mass is often maintained (at least when tuning lead organ pipes) by making two narrow cuts or slits
and an leaving one end of the tab still attached the tube and rolling up the notch material that is often removed in the acoustic tuning of HHO cells
.The tab of lead is rolled in a spriral fashion like a rug and tucked inside
the organ pipe for appearance sake. The mass of the pipe is maintained but the effective length of the resonating air column is shortened. See Dave Lawton's comments Chapt 10  at the PKFE site. This kinds of tuning is used on higher pitched pipes especially. And in this case a possible goal would be  to create sympathetic vibration between the inner and outer tubes and in the water column between the tubes. But in Meyer's Cell so much
material would  be needed to be removed from the outer tube ((in part because thinner gauge (but identical outside diameter to maintain same tube gap) should have been used for the inner tube))  to match the mass of the two tubes that he used in his demonstration cell (over 3.24  sq inches). One is not able to remove enough mass (example 3.14 x 1 inches  surface area of a tube
 1 inch in diameter = 3.14 sq inches) . So much mass would needed to be removed in the case of Meyers Demo cell that the notches would be greater than the circumference of the.075 outer tube and basically would amount to shortening the length of the outer tube by about 1.3 inches thereby substantially changing the acoustic length of the outer tube.  Remember that even a millimeter difference an change the acoustic vibrational frequency a tube by many Hz and cause the tubes to be unable to have sympathetic vibration.
Stan settled for close enough. If he had been able to use a slightly thinner gauge for the inner tube or groove the inner surface like rifle lands, he would have been able to match both the mass and acoustic  frequencies(and in the case of VIC and PLL systems in Meyers later work, the area-capacitance)  and thereby more closely appoximate a tubular tuning fork with different diameter tubes.

Bracket Improvements
If I were going to design the inverted 7 support brackets I would make them narrower to allow better movement in the x ,y axes and slightly thinner to allow more z axis oscillation.
Spacer improvement
To better control the range of vibration I would add a second set of  perspex dowels
in the lower part of the tube.
To prevent the perspex dowels fron shifting I would fix the two cross pieces together thereby preventing any movement of the dowels as originally placed.
To modify the distance that the inner tube can vibrate relative to the outer tube make the length of the dowel shorter than the inside diameter of theouter tube. If you want the inner tube to be able to vibrate along the x y axes (let's say for example 1 mm)
make the dowels shorter than the inside diameter of the by the appropriate distance. This is similar in concept to milling the heads of nylon pop rivets in some constructions or adjusting a non conductive bolt the Cramton cell to maintain tubular gap but still allow for vibration. Hence Scott's comment about not tightening the bolts too much and Lawton comments about the need for the tubes to be loosely fitted into the tube holder brackets. (Suggest that the perspex or nylon dowel rods be
rounded or beveled at the end to minimize damping.)

Also to minimize damping effects the perspex dowels should be placed with respect to nodal points 22.4% from either end (maybe a little adjustment at the top part of the tube to take into account the change in node position caused by the notches or tuning slots.

Enhancing Sympathetic Vibration
To improve the vibration of the inner tubes mounting them to the stainless grounding disk using "z" brackets or alternatively , mounting them very firmly and vibrating the entire inner tube assemby using a piezoelectric crystal tuned to the acoustic frequency of the outer tubes would amplify and enhance the
sympathethic vibration of both the innner and outer tubes  like a tuning fork. Understand that this is an acoustic effect which is designed to remove HHO bubbles rapidly and to increase the effective hydrolysis area, to provide more uniform bubble size  and water flow between the tubes.
Again the slots are there for tuning the tubes to vibrate, shake off the bubbles resulting in small bubbles rising through the gap. As large bubbles form, in the type of cells  that have highly charged surfaces the capacitance across the two charged plates is disrupted and changed as large bubble are formed and rise the the to of the the tube set.
 The greater the length of the tubes the wider the gap needs to be to allow the bubbles which now have coalesced into larger bubbles (due to the greater distance and therefore time to rise to the top of the tubes)Also because the aount of production is now increasesd with at longer tube( more surface area) there is a greater volume of gas that must flow through the gap .Too much production may alter the capacitance adversely. Small bubbles of HHO once knocked off the inner sufaces of the tube can rise
smoothly (especially since the vibrating tube keeps them from attaching). Large bubbles that have coalesced from small ones can bridge the tube gap to cause large patches of HHO that decreases the amount of the inner surface of the outer tube and the outer surface of the inner tube in contact with water which subsequently throws off the capacitance of the two tubular surfaces and creates an unstable state in those cells that use a PPL or VIC and therefore might have problems adjusting to or locking on to this varying state. In the case of the Demo cell the same  water and bubble flow factors are at work (but not the same electrical circuits):  the size of the bubble and the surface tension of the larger bubbles adhering to the inside tubes and physical constraints of flow.
By modifying the surface tension of the water using a non ionic
Tweens or Spans or even agents added to beer to modify foaming to cause smaller bubbles might improve production by creating a more stable flow and improved bubble flow.
Even in the video SME1, the demonstration cell that had variable spacing shows an oscillating production of bubbles. I think a nice even flow of bubbles is an indicator of a well controlled or regulated system system in either type of system.

Although this has been discussed before in some forums, the possibility of improved
and more controlled flow of bubbles through the tubes by a radial waterflow across the tops of the tubes causing a venturi effect or enhancing the water flow by use of pumps and pressurized water flow.
the bubble/acoustic question
However only a clear picture of the bottom of the Demo cell showing if Meyer had plastic dowels at the bottom of the of the inner tube and if it was at a nodal point such as 22.4% can resolve the acoustic questions amd see if Stan was in fact concerned with aiding the release of bubbles by acoustical means.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 17:58:36 pm by jim miller »

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Re: Crampton and Meyer TOTB
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 04:29:31 am »
Your mixing up systems here.The demo tube cell doesn't have a PLL circuit,or a VIC coil,because this
This cell only makes the point that you can restrict amp,which allows voltage to rise.This cell is low voltage,less than 100 volts or lower.A resonant cell voltage would be 1kv or higher.