Author Topic: Bob Boyce  (Read 32462 times)

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2009, 20:09:16 pm »
Hi Cowboyrx
Well buying the big cell was not an option to get it here in one piece and the freight.
Ours was all laser cut, and CNC made any how. It was all done to specs and conditioned etc.
Ian ran is on 'brute force' up to 9amps at 190v and only got 13.5ltrs per min. the cell get very hot at 8amps. 
So I will be asking Ian about the concentration, here is most of our cell we only go to 10% concentration, we use pure stuff, in crystal form, weight it, so much per ltr. I think it is 40grams per ltr for 5%.
 My test cell as Steve may remember, there was a pic some where, it's a round sealed cell but mine is an experimental version.
It has twin inputs, one feed the odd numbers and the other feeds the even, I have holes at the top and at the bottom, so the 22cell unit can be put into two 11's in parallel, if you want. Like this it can give 4.5lts per min at 27v 15amps. Just brute force, it is a convection circulation, I have added a modification, and extra header tank. That is on rainwater, that has been standing for a period of time, at about 8%.
I am winding toroid chokes at the moment, one down two to go. 1.5mm  wire, forgot to count the turns but I used 2 metres, came out to 222uH   0.633ohms,  and impedance Z at 100hz was 0.1535 ohms. Out cell at 35D C is Rof full circuit at 100hz,  the cell is 350uf.

{ 190x15x12=~34LPM }  explain, I got the 190 that volts, the 15 is the amps, what's the 12?
Is that Faraday. And MMW ?
190 x 15 x 12 = 34,200       190 x 15 =  2,850watts. Next ?

ok I will await the reply, I have sent the request in  so Bob should read it soon.  ???

aussepom

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2009, 00:20:09 am »
Hi Cowboyrx
Well buying the big cell was not an option to get it here in one piece and the freight.
Ours was all laser cut, and CNC made any how. It was all done to specs and conditioned etc.
Ian ran is on 'brute force' up to 9amps at 190v and only got 13.5ltrs per min. the cell get very hot at 8amps. 
So I will be asking Ian about the concentration, here is most of our cell we only go to 10% concentration, we use pure stuff, in crystal form, weight it, so much per ltr. I think it is 40grams per ltr for 5%.
 My test cell as Steve may remember, there was a pic some where, it's a round sealed cell but mine is an experimental version.
It has twin inputs, one feed the odd numbers and the other feeds the even, I have holes at the top and at the bottom, so the 22cell unit can be put into two 11's in parallel, if you want. Like this it can give 4.5lts per min at 27v 15amps. Just brute force, it is a convection circulation, I have added a modification, and extra header tank. That is on rainwater, that has been standing for a period of time, at about 8%.
I am winding toroid chokes at the moment, one down two to go. 1.5mm  wire, forgot to count the turns but I used 2 metres, came out to 222uH   0.633ohms,  and impedance Z at 100hz was 0.1535 ohms. Out cell at 35D C is Rof full circuit at 100hz,  the cell is 350uf.

{ 190x15x12=~34LPM }  explain, I got the 190 that volts, the 15 is the amps, what's the 12?
Is that Faraday. And MMW ?
190 x 15 x 12 = 34,200       190 x 15 =  2,850watts. Next ?

ok I will await the reply, I have sent the request in  so Bob should read it soon.  ???

aussepom

Your cell with 4500ml/min is 4500ml/(27vx15a)=11.11 MMW. Not bad.  That's 160% Faraday (100% Faraday is ~7MMW)
190V x 15A x 12mmw = 34,200ml = 34.2LPM
190 x 15 =  2,850watts  At this power, considering 12MMW efficiency,  you should get 34,200ml = 34.2LPM

Using distilled water with 28% KOH or 20-23% NaOH gives best MMW efficiency. You cell should not get over 55C, if you don't exceed 2v/cell and 0.5A/sq. in of active surface area (wet area) AND when you don't have any plate edge/hole leakage.

10% NaoH is only for conditioning the plates, not for full brute force or resonance. I hope your plate spacing between each cell is 3-4 mm?

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2009, 21:25:14 pm »
http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogengarage/-strse-THE-CELL/Categories.bok

Why dont you just buy the dam thing , its gonna cost you the same exact thing to build your own anyways ... Not to mention the trouble you will go throught and all the unknown variables to frustrate you .

Dankie

For the second time:   ;)
THE CELL is merely a 2 x 6 (or 4 x 6) series brute force cell producing +- 1 lpm for every 10A, 13.8VDC.
THE CELL is NOT a 101 plate cell needed for resonance. The 101 plate cell together with Bob's  Hex controller is said to produce up to 100lpm at low amps but we still could not verify this.

Wouter

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2009, 04:15:55 am »
Hi Steve and Cowboyrx,
in the post above wouter

quote
The 101 plate cell together with Bob's  Hex controller is said to produce up to 100lpm at low amps but we still could not verify this. end

Well as you know we here have not either, well here is some of the quotes that may be of interest, you can view them all at the http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.0
Now whether this will help I do not know, I doubt it, still I will try it again when the board is repaired, this is nearly done, and the 'new separate board' is partly done, one choke wound. I have to have both ready for the test as the 'cell'  is some distance away from me at Ian's. I hope to do some tests here later.

well I would like to here some comments on the 'quotes'
aussepom


From Bob Boyce
I will top-post here due to the length of the quoted text below.

I simply do not have the time to read all of Patrick Kellys document(s) to see what is or is not disclosed. I have written so much over the years, at so many forums, that there is no way that I can tell you where every little bit of my information is published. But one thing is certain... I have disclosed everything related to my resonance drive systems, at least once, if not more, in the various sites that I post at. Patrick Kelly, after asking my permission of course, took it upon himself to attempt a compilation of my information. He did not ask for compensation from you or anyone else for this monumental task. As far as I am concerned, he did an excellent job. From time to time, it is brought to our attention that there is an error or omission, and that is corrected by Patrick, hence the continual updates he makes.

I can tell you this. The cell is not a capacitor, no matter how much you want it to be one. It is a load, one that we dissipate power into, in order to liberate a unique form of hydroxy gas. It may have some capacitance, as many loads do, but that has nothing to do with the sort of resonance that my system employs.

The resonance of the primaries has nothing to do with the frequencies (intervals) used. You are trying to compare sinewave (transverse) resonance at specific frequencies, to compression wave (longitudinal) energy. It cannot match due to the propagation velocity differences between the two types of energy. This is because compression wave energy flows at a much higher speed than that of transverse energy. Please try to ignore your traditional education when attempting to understand this technology. It has nothing to do with transverse electromagnetic waves, and everything to do with the compression waves of potential shock waves as they flow through the bi-metallic skin of the winding conductors. The behavior of the compression waves in the primary windings are directly related to the longitudinal wavelength of the wire vs the pulse widths of applied potential. Therefore, you will quickly discover that excess pulse width is a very bad thing when trying to get the maximum amount of energy gain from input power vs output power. At extremely short pulse widths, I have had input to output gains in excess of 200 X magnification. Tesla himself claimed to have reach 100 X gain in his magnifying transmitter at very low power levels as well. My improvements upon his technology should allow me to hit as much as 300 X magnification, but I have yet to see that much. I am still working at it of course.

The operating voltage of the 100 cell unit is typically in the 150 to 160 volt range. In a low leakage unit, the current SHOULD be about 200 mA, but yours may be higher or lower due to differences in leakage currents. We do NOT want electrolysis to occur, as this will interfere with the resonance. Primary current (all 3 combined) should not exceed 200 mA as well. In my own HexController unit, with very accurate windings, primary current does not exceed 10 mA. Of course the PWM3F or PWM3G will not offer the same performance levels (PWM3G is closest) as the HexController, but they are able to show gains of up to 3 X to 5 X if operated at minimum pulse width. By the way, minimum pulse width is determined by the minimum pulse width of channel 3 (10.7 khz repetition rate), and the other channels are to be set to exactly the same pulse width. Primary windings will require adjustment to match that pulse width. There was a reason I made a relatively simple calculation method for determining the number of turns for the primaries based upon secondary turns and cell idle current. It only takes 1 turn of error to make a big difference in performance, 2 turns of error will result in no joy. It's like tuning an antenna, if the VSWR is too high, the impedance mismatch will destroy the effectiveness of the antenna. This is no different, as it is an antenna array of sorts, just not electromagnetic in nature.

Bob Boyce

Quote from: aussepom on February 27, 2009, 02:50:40 PM
Hi Bob, Mr Rowland and others
Thankyou WouterFuel for creating this thread.
Yes the cell was set up and all the procedures was strictly followed

{  The only time 4 amps is used is during the cleansing phase, during which time the cells are not connected to the toroidal power system. After that, the conditioning phase, which is done for at least several days, running at about 1 amp, and again, the cells are not connected to the toroid power system.}


{ Only when operated during resonance, (after cleanse and conditioning are completed) is the toroidal power system connected. At that time, entraining potential current through the cell stack is in the few hundred milliamps range. } 
 How many hundreds?

Or do we follow Mr Rowland?

{ Now instead of the approx. 2vdc per cell the voltage is set at 1.5vdc per cell. With your 100 cell unit operating at 150vdc the amps will (or should be) be much lower.}

and what ever the current is at that stage would be ok??

None of this type of information is in the D9, that every one seems to take as 'the gospel'

Once the board is repaired and re-setup, will follow like to follow an option

{ The primary current to all three toroid primaries combined is no more than a few hundred milliamps TOTAL! }

Our coil
Toroid  P1 = 996uH,  0.319 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 10.7khz Z = 66.96 ohms,
13.8 / 66.96 =  206mA
 
Toroid  P2 = 992uH,  0.323 ohms (DC resistance) 
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 21.4khz Z = 133.38 ohms
13.8 / 133.38 = 103mA

 Toroid  P3 = 992uH,  0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance,  at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 42.8khz Z = 267.57ohms
13.8 / 267.57 = 51.5mA

Total calculated  milliamps by the three primaries = 360.5mA

Measured  Total current after set up was 320mA this was as far as I was prepared to take it at that stage.
How I see things
So if at any time during the setting of the pulse widths this when any where near 500 to 800mA it was backed off. If you are not aware of this you can during this tuning you can send the Mosfets into 'full on mode', when this happens, the coil is no longer getting pulses just straight DC, and acts accordingly, the 'time on' period will 'see the DC resistance only' so do the sums
Max that could be draw in this 'period of on time' is 13.8 / 0.319 for P1 =  43.2 amps FOR THAT  TIME DURATION THAT PULSE IT IS ON FOR. That for these 510's is too much and before you can blink it is blown.
This is why I have said to the 'learners' put the heavier Mosfets in with the coil open, so that you can get the 'feel' of the setting up procedure. You can then fit the 510's when you are happy with your results   
Why was not something like this stated in the D9, or by you Bob?

Pin five will give you the out put of the oscillator, set this first, on all three 556's with the frequency  pots. R24, R 26, R28
Show pic of this

You can monitor the 'with pulse' on pin nine of the 556, as you then adjust the pot you will see the pulse start to increase.
Show pic of this
You must have done this Bob, Or you Mr Roland, simple thing like this help us all understand.


{ the toroid windings ideally should be wound for opposite spin in the southern hemisphere. This would mean winding CCW going CW, and the 3 phases would be reversed in direction for CW clocking. This is to compensate for the reverse earths magnetic field south of the equator. Having it wound and connected for northern hemisphere will still work, but at a loss of production. }

This has not been mentioned any where to my knowledge, if it was posted some where then please point me to the post.


Mr Rowland quote
{ if you are using 204vdc@4amps to get only 4+ LPM I think you may have some leakage between cells. A well cleansed and conditioned pack (without the high end tronix) should do more LPM.}
 
Well I do not think that there is any leakage, however there is one thing that could account for this, and I will ask Ian to check this before we do the next test.
The 'elite mixture' percentage may be to low, but I am sure he has it correct but I will ask him, if this is lower than Bob used then it would account for the low output at 4amps.
What is the required percentage amount, or the grams per litre, that you used or recommend.?
I just want to double check this with you.
 
Our 'Cell'  calculated at 100hz was 350uf, the measured at 390uf at 35 d C (95F) all our checks are done at this temperature.
The 'Natural resonance' of our series circuit is 102hz. With a total DC resistance at this Rof (resonance) of 1.23ohms.
I have not found that any one has posted  a set of pic 'as it was tuned' similar to me, whether they are correct or not, there is even the part of a 'faulty connection with a Mosfet'.
I would like to compare our toroid  coil information,  that I have posted with the one that you have Bob, the results should be similar. Or if any one else has any info similar would be welcomed.   
I hope to repair the board and re set it up for another test, any information is welcomed that will hell test this project.
sorry I would have like to do shading but not sure how.
aussepom



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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2009, 09:51:03 am »
Hi to Steve and you all I will be placing this on the waterfuelforall site and the other sites.

IF YOU HAVE ANY OF THE BOARDS PWM3 'E' OR 'F' OR THE NEW ONE 'G' 

Bob and wouter

 I was doing some checks and I have found what I see is a major problem. It is on both the 'E' and the 'F' board.
The circuit looks ok, but it is on the board it's self.
T o explain, R12 goes from the supply rail to pin five then through C5 to pin 8 the trigger input of the second timer. This is ok on the circuit.
Look at the board, on the tracks ( green ones) from the supply rail through R12 IT THEN GOES DIRECTLY TO PIN 8, THROUGH THE CAP TO PIN 5.
R12 and C5 form a timing circuit to pin 8 of the trigger on the second timer. This CANNOT happen the way that the printed circuit board is.

A solution, CUT THE TRACK BETWEEN R12 AND PIN 8 THEN PUT A JUMPER FROM THE R12 TO PIN 5.

Now this board is the one Bob sent to us directly, so how could any of the boards be working 'as per the circuit'. 
 I do not have a copy of the 'G' board so I can not see if it is the same.
If any of you out there have any of these boards please check them.

I found this when I put pins in position to check the pulses on pin 5 and pin 9, there seem to be a problem, so checked  the signal at pin 5 and at pin 8.  then check the board, against the circuit.

Problem is how many more faults are there?

 Why has this not been picked up before now, was it on the earlier boards??

Why is it left up to us to find these faults, I feel for all those people that have paid good money for these boards, including us.
Sorry to go on but this is not good, why should we all be the guinea pigs to sort out these problems.
aussepom

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2009, 20:12:17 pm »
Bob shut down his Hydroxy Yahoo group maybe because of this?
http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.30

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2009, 20:18:30 pm »
Hi Cowboy,

I think Bob wants to see some money from poor suckers who gonna buy his controller.
Till this moment, NOBODY ever showed me a working device, doing what Bob claims.
And now, he is even gonna tell us that we cannot use the word CONTROLLER?
Hahahahahaha. Sorry. Just like somebody is telling me not to use the word WATER... ;)

br
Steve

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Re: Bob Boyce
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2009, 23:10:03 pm »
Did you guys see the oscilloscope shot there? Can we use it to understand what he might doing with his three frequencies?