Author Topic: HHO storage  (Read 15368 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Jr. member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2008, 21:47:07 pm »
Hi Stevie1001,

I would agree that flow is a little less in a sealed off cell than you would have in a tube setup or a setup with little pieces at the bottom open, but then again, the reaction you get with a completely sealed cell is so much better, that the gas is flung off the plates at such a fast rate that the flow is not that much important.

The real question to ask as you so cleverly picked up is the problem of filling the cell ;)
I have heard of many people completely abandoning the series cell because of this problem, and while there are many ways to tackle this problem, all of them involve some kind of hard labor or smart electronics (or both, lol).

The first thing you can do is to tilt the entire cell sideways about 45 degrees, and then fill the water over the edges of all the cells.  When the cell is tilted back again, the water will automatically equalize, and all cells will be filled to the same level.  This is also the method described in Rhode's patent. 

Next you can do what Bob Boyce recommends.  He says that if you cut the slots holding the plates deep enough, and then insert the plates, with a VERY small gap (0.01mm or less), there will be a little room for the water to travel between every plate, thus allowing you to pump new water into only one or two cells, and the extra water will then equalize automatically by flowing around the plates through the grooves in the plexiglass.  The principle behind this is that the electrons will then still travel through the plates rather that around the edges, because you will effectively have the tolerance so high and the gap between the plexiglass and the plates so small that the electricity would consider that route the long route, and find less resistance by going through every plate.

You can also do it a bit more complicated if that's your thing. This method involves having  a sliding piece of acrylic at the bottom of the cell.  Then you drill a hole (or more) through each of the 100 cells.  Then, during normal operation, this sliding piece of acrylic (either on the side of the cell or on the bottom) will be kept in an off center alignment to the rest of the holes, essentially preventing the electrons from taking a shorter path.  When it's time to fill the cell, then you move the slider back, lining up the holes, allowing the water from the reservoir to flow in and equalize to the level of the water in the reservoir.  once this has happened, you can then move the slider off center again to seal everything off again.

Lastly you can also have a very complex filling system, whereby you monitor each cell's level individually, and have a syringe type setup for every cell, which will fill up only that cell when filling is required.  I don't recommend this way, however, as the electronics and mechanical setup of this would be way too complicated and costly to make it a viable solution.

Apart from the last possibility mentioned here, all of them have one thing in common: For a limited period of time, the possibility for the electrons to just jump off the edge of the plates to take the shortest route to ground still exists, and with that in mind, it's probably wort it to follow the KISS method and keep it as simpleas possible.  I have experimented with the slider thing, as well as filing the cells individually, and more recently, allowing the water to leak around the cells over a period of time and to equalize the cell like that, but I have to honestly say that the easiest (and probably quickest) way of doing it is to just turn the cell on it's side 45 degrees, pumping the new water in, and turning it back, eliminating the current from flowing around the edges for too long.


Brownsgas, I just got a new 7500watt generator with electric start, and will be modifying the engine for hydroxy gas soon, so any help you can offer on that would be greatly appreciated!  My previous hydroxy engine was a 157cc robin edge cutter motor, which, fortunately and for some reason did not produce the second wasted spark, so I never had any issues with it in terms of backfire, aside form the fact that I couldn't adjust the timing on it much, and it was sputtering a bit. 

Thanks!

Johan




Online Login to see usernames

  • Administrator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4441
    • water structure and science
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2008, 11:05:05 am »
Johan,

Do i understand you correctly that you also keep the waterlevel lower then the top edge of your plates?

br

steve

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Jr. member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2008, 14:33:24 pm »
Hi Steve,

100% correct yes.  In a resonance drive system, the reaction is so violent that the water level is often only about half the height of the plate, in order to keep it from foaming over and allowing the electricity a shorter path to ground.  When using brute force, I normally have it around 75% the height of the plates, which makes the tilting method easy to do, because you will never overfill the plates using that method..

Laters

Johan

palsness

  • Guest
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 06:17:18 am »
For those of you that are thinking of using a Laser to cut your SS plates…think twice!  I was talking to Bob the other day and he had 2 sets of plates badly warped from the cutting process.  He is still not sure that they are salvageable.  I told him that I recommend water jet (flow jet) cutting.  It is done cold and does not warp the plates.  It is computer controlled and very clean cutting.  I have used it for cutting 1 ½ inch SS plate and paper thin stuff.  I highly recommend this process…

I generally though just use a sharp mettle shear to cut my thinner plates…and then file the edges.

Just my 2 bits.

Karl

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Look out for the M I B
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2008, 03:41:44 am »
uuuh ok

ur wrong and so is Bob, i was actualy at the factory when they lasercuted my plates and i could hold the plates in my hand as they came out of the cuter
the plates then was transported to a "brusher" where my plates was brushed/sanded  before they whent to the final laminating station
plates was 0,8 mm and bending/warping as u say was less than 0.025mm on a suface 100 x 300 mm
these numbers is before the casting, and if the casting thread is 1,4mm im confident its about that number that il end up with
P.S these guys r the same factory the lab im working in r using and they hawe laser, water and stampers wich they use to cut materials
THEY told me the laser cuting was the best way
i trust the ppl who has been working with SS the last 40 yrs hawe the last words, atleast for me
ooh well i hawe my 164 plates cuted, lets see if im right r not


Mr Browngass

palsness

  • Guest
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2008, 18:04:24 pm »
I was only repeating what Bob Boyce told me about the laser cutting.  I told him about my experience with using water jet.  I known that the military use water jet to cut there SS as I had a hard time getting my work in line, as hear the water jet people are booked by the military most of the time.  I really like the quality of the cuts that I have seen.  I have not seen any SS cut by laser so I can only comment on what I was told.  If the laser is working well for you, than I am happy for you.  I am sure that both processes can monkey up your material if they don’t operate the machinery properly.

Karl

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Look out for the M I B
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2008, 21:06:48 pm »
if Bob was using thicker materials then yes u might get problems when the laser is too weak
im using 0,8 mm plates and the laser cut that like paper
the problem with water cuting is the work u hawe to do after the cuting, the machining of the plates after mean`s more handeling of the plates
im shure water jet do the same work in the end  ;)


Mr Browngass


Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Look out for the M I B
Re: HHO storage
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2008, 22:13:00 pm »
i found a few links that could help us create better cells, some of these machines r in a big scale and scaling them down to fit a car who then can be "charged" (make preshurised Hydrogen in a carbon tank) and when u drive the car u add the WFC tech to get better driving range
Proton-exchange membrane electrolysers hawe between 95.3% and 90.4% energy efficiency.
anyway think about it?

http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf

http://www4.hydro.com/electrolysers/en/products/range/inergon_pem_electrolyser/index.html

this one i realy like to see in a smaller scale   
http://www.genhypem.u-psud.fr/publis/Grigoriev_108.pdf


Mr Browngass