Author Topic: the dielectric property of water  (Read 10222 times)

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 14:34:05 pm »
Not sure what you mean with creating holes.
IF you use a charge (current), then you talk about electrolysis.
In Stans case, as far as i have understand it, he talks about voltage fields and not about current or charges.
So NO electrons travel towards the wfc.
Because there is no charge traveling thru the water, there will be no alligment of molecule, and so you keep the basic water situation.
Molecule clusters of watermolecules.
Hold together by covalent bondings of the H atoms with O atoms.

Lots of questions.....
No answers yet.

Steve

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 15:19:06 pm »
Quote
I have a good news

I learned the other day that atoms have holes that can be filled with electrons every atom have a different configuration.
Oxygen have 2 holes.

When oxygen burn together with h2 the output tend to be h2o because each H fill one of the holes.
If we could charge this oxygen negatively, we would fill this holes. If we was to burn this oxygen with the h2  than water molecule would not reform again. Meyer said that he was avoiding the water to recombine.

this is a quote from seb off of your 102 dry cell thread.. which i been meaning to say very nice steve!


the alignment of water is possible i think when going from very low volts progressivly to higher volt..

think about it this way. when a signal is produced into the tubes... their electric field lets say is 250mv  that little exterior field will deflect what ever electrons that are close enough to be effected.. so lets say that little pulsed field was strong enough to effect the first layer of atoms/ molecules in contact with each tube.. if you impose the slightest difference  without destablizing the water completely which i mean the plucking of the electron right off hand.. even though you didnt pluck any you made them electrons time share rate change by the slightest.. by that i mean the electrons were foced to over shoot there casual orbit.. so if the first layer was able to do that then that means its own personal electrons are intruding  on the neighboring layer..  so all in all its a traveling wave of orbital displament occuring that is progressivley being achieved and cannot just be forced.   

the unipolar pulses allow for this to occur because it creates the step charging effect.. 250mv, 500mv, 1v, 2v, 4v, 8v, 16v , 32v, 64v, 128v, 256v, 512v,  1024v,  2048v,  4096v,  8192v, 16384, 32768v gate for 18 steps to continue again..

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 16:37:20 pm »
What Sebos tried to say, is that the outer orbit of a single oxygen atom has 6 electrons in orbit and has room for 8.
As long as the oxygen atom has 6 electrons , it will always look/hunt for 2 extra electron, because with 8 electrons it will have a stable state.
See picture.

Steve

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 18:28:05 pm »
i understand that steve.. so lets say we have distilled water in a fuel cell... the two holes  are filled correct since we do have water and not gas..   this means atomicaly the only way for electrons to get through the water is how?

these words in quote are stans words from his own mouth on one of his videos

"waters has 8 electrons in oxygens  L orbit when it is water..   L orbit has a capacity of 8 electrons.. it dont want anymore electron nor does it want to exchange electrons.. which means it opposes the movement of electrons 78.54 greater then air"

when stan says "movement of electron" what does he mean? does he mean the force of moving an electron out of orbit L?... 
"nor does it want to exchange" is another key term defining the resistance hes tuning to..

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 19:09:29 pm »
Hello guys,

I discovered another mean for resonance... in quantum physics the electrons that bounds the molecules together move from molecule to other molecule all the time and this is also called resonance. Example you have a aromatic Hydrocarbon molecule witch is closed and witch have 3 double bounds and 3 single bounds, the electrons (cloud) in the bounds are known to change position inside the molecule all the time.

I was guessing today if stan was not meaning by resonance only the self ionization of water induced by voltage...


Hi outlawstc

He meant the resistance of the movement of the ion. As water have 10 electrons and all them are bounded there is no free electron to move.

the 78,54 is the dielectric constant, witch dictates the rate of electrons or coulombs of charge it need to hold to build up 1 volt.

The water molecule have 10 electrons and this is the reason why its so polar. As the oxygen aways want electrons this electrons get closer to him actually in its orbit and it leave the hydrogen as tips glued on him.

By holes i wanted to mean that when you have oxygen gas and you ionize it negatively you fill one of this two holes, lets say it start having 9 electrons instead of 8, thus every oxygen would want to link up with one hydrogen. Otherwise what i was trying to say also was that if you could instead ionize it positively lets say taking from it 1 electron making it have 7 instead of 8 electrons, it would like to link with 3 hydrogens, and this would lead to not reform water entirely as you see below.

Example (the extra oxygen come from atmosphere):
If you take 2 moles of hydrogen and 1 mole of oxygen you have 1 mole of H20    Reforming water normally 18g per mole
If you take 2 moles of hydrogen and 2 moles of oxygen you have 2 moles of OH-  Reforming more water than H2 would normally happen 34g per mole of water
If  you take 3 moles of hydrogen and 1 mole of oxygen you have 1 mole of H3O+ Reforming less water than H2 would normally happen... 19g per mole of water
Thus i guessed that what meyer intended by re energize the water was actually to allow the water to cool down and by action of the sun and the difference of the charges to bound together and rain again.

More things i learned:

Oxygen love electrons.
Electrons or charge can't stay inside a conductor (tube) always outside. (i was thinking about how the delrin in the outside of the tube could influence in this) didn't concluded nothing yet.
Neutrons exist inside the atoms to keep the protons from "touching"each other. And neutrons can be converted into 1 proton and 1 electron.
Water have a certain +- 5% of deuterium witch is hydrogen with 1 neutron inside.


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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 20:28:41 pm »
i understand that steve.. so lets say we have distilled water in a fuel cell... the two holes  are filled correct since we do have water and not gas..   this means atomicaly the only way for electrons to get through the water is how?

these words in quote are stans words from his own mouth on one of his videos

"waters has 8 electrons in oxygens  L orbit when it is water..   L orbit has a capacity of 8 electrons.. it dont want anymore electron nor does it want to exchange electrons.. which means it opposes the movement of electrons 78.54 greater then air"

when stan says "movement of electron" what does he mean? does he mean the force of moving an electron out of orbit L?... 
"nor does it want to exchange" is another key term defining the resistance hes tuning to..

The holes you are referring to are the ions present in the water in the form of salts and such. The ions accept the electron from the cathode making the ion net negative and will also have an attraction the the positive plate. When the ion touches the positive plate it gives up the charge(electron) it took from the cathode.

Remember, dielectric values are based on pure substance which water almost never is even close to pure.  Also, a dielectric value is based upon a medium with little or no ionic content. Since ions are natural charge carriers, the presence of them in water make the conductivity overcome any dielectric resistance. So using the basis of 78.XX ohms as an arbitrary point of measurement is mute, that number will not calculate with your real results.

Electrolysis is by far the opposite of ionization. What I see many do is try to put them in the same comparative group. What should be realized is the current in electrolysis is to be the process we do not want to happen. We want liquid to gas ionization with normal tap water or any available water. But all available water has a good amount of ionic content forcing us to find a solution allowing us to attain high voltages without letting the ions take electrons from the cathode. Hence the need for chokes or a capacitive/resistive ground. Think of it this way... The ground is a vast sea of free electrons. If we charge a plate positively, the electrons from the ground will be attracted to it, depending upon the voltage level and the space between the positive plate and the ground. What we are trying to achieve is keeping the free electrons from leaving ground by means of resistance and magnetism or any method that works. That allows us to raise the positive voltage to a higher potential without drawing current from ground and yet bring the positive plate as close to the ground as possible. I like to call it a "capacitive resistive ground". Now, being able to have this high differential between the plates, the medium in that space, whether it be air or water, will be polarized and or ionized from the conditions set forth. It is easily proven with an "air ionizer" experiment to demonstrate one possible method, although air has very little ionic content where as, water has quite a bit, making circuit design less of a challenge.

How much energy does it take to strip one electron from hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen? What is the most efficient means of ionizing a medium to force it to eject electrons from their orbits?

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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 21:22:48 pm »
Hello guys,

I discovered another mean for resonance... in quantum physics the electrons that bounds the molecules together move from molecule to other molecule all the time and this is also called resonance. Example you have a aromatic Hydrocarbon molecule witch is closed and witch have 3 double bounds and 3 single bounds, the electrons (cloud) in the bounds are known to change position inside the molecule all the time.

I was guessing today if stan was not meaning by resonance only the self ionization of water induced by voltage...


Hi outlawstc

He meant the resistance of the movement of the ion. As water have 10 electrons and all them are bounded there is no free electron to move.

the 78,54 is the dielectric constant, witch dictates the rate of electrons or coulombs of charge it need to hold to build up 1 volt.

The water molecule have 10 electrons and this is the reason why its so polar. As the oxygen aways want electrons this electrons get closer to him actually in its orbit and it leave the hydrogen as tips glued on him.

By holes i wanted to mean that when you have oxygen gas and you ionize it negatively you fill one of this two holes, lets say it start having 9 electrons instead of 8, thus every oxygen would want to link up with one hydrogen. Otherwise what i was trying to say also was that if you could instead ionize it positively lets say taking from it 1 electron making it have 7 instead of 8 electrons, it would like to link with 3 hydrogens, and this would lead to not reform water entirely as you see below.

Example (the extra oxygen come from atmosphere):
If you take 2 moles of hydrogen and 1 mole of oxygen you have 1 mole of H20    Reforming water normally 18g per mole
If you take 2 moles of hydrogen and 2 moles of oxygen you have 2 moles of OH-  Reforming more water than H2 would normally happen 34g per mole of water
If  you take 3 moles of hydrogen and 1 mole of oxygen you have 1 mole of H3O+ Reforming less water than H2 would normally happen... 19g per mole of water
Thus i guessed that what meyer intended by re energize the water was actually to allow the water to cool down and by action of the sun and the difference of the charges to bound together and rain again.

More things i learned:

Oxygen love electrons.
Electrons or charge can't stay inside a conductor (tube) always outside. (i was thinking about how the delrin in the outside of the tube could influence in this) didn't concluded nothing yet.
Neutrons exist inside the atoms to keep the protons from "touching"each other. And neutrons can be converted into 1 proton and 1 electron.
Water have a certain +- 5% of deuterium witch is hydrogen with 1 neutron inside.

Stan sometimes talked about doing the opposite of electrolysis.
That self ionisation effect might be the thing.
So Stan must have thought on how to stimulate that effect, is it...




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Re: the dielectric property of water
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 22:08:06 pm »
I purpose a simple experiment to help explain what I mean when I talk about a capacitive resistive ground. I can maybe upload pics later today. The experiment requires a high voltage source, and a burnt out light bulb. In my personal setup, I use a plasma ball circuit and a burnt 12V bulb. I am able to carefully touch the bulb to the out put wire of the circuit which is about 10Kv and see an array of sparks from the anode to the glass, much like the plasma globe itself. This demonstrates the "capacitive resistive effect" the glass and I add to the circuit. Me touching the glass of the bulb, makes the glass of the bulb itself the negative plate in the circuit. Notice no measurable current is drawn from ground. So where does the arcing come from? Ionization of the medium in the bulb? The glass?

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 22:27:32 pm by Bubz »