Author Topic: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS  (Read 3511 times)

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PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« on: April 15, 2010, 05:19:10 am »
GUYS
We need to start getting into the physics of the thing to be able to do something.
This space is for serious answers to real questions, please no bullshit here!
I would propose some points we need to solve, those who can help, please help!

Here we will talk about dielectrics!

1° We need to know how to calculate Relative permittivity in Lossy medium. Lets consider distilled water and reverse osmose  filtered water (deionized).
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_static_permittivity

2° We need to know the K factor of this waters. (loss per cycle in %)

3° We need to be able to calculate the capacitance of the water with scientist precision. 

For now I believe is enough!

Rules for this discussion:
Please don't *  around here or your post will be deleted!
Please don't make others lose their times with useless posts!
Please don't make me or the other moderators lose their times deleting useless posts!
Instead of lose your time writing things that will only make us lose time, use this time to find the answers!
Any post with non related info will be edited or deleted instantaneously, this is to avoid non educated posts and many pages of no point discussion. 

If a good question is asked, and answered more than once, probably only the best answer will remain. 
 
Thanks

I will do my best to write here only value info!

vacuum permittivity, permittivity of free space or electric constant ?0 ? 8.854×10?12 F m–1
?0 is the magnetic constant or vacuum permeability and has the defined value 4? × 10?7 H m?1
c0  speed of light in vacuum has the defined value 299792458 m·s?1
Elementary charge e=1.602176487(40)×10?19 coulombs

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 20:18:18 pm »
A dielectric material will block dc current while allows Ac to flow, Its reactance is called capacitive and is given by Xc=1/(2*PI*f*C)

The higher the frequency more current flow... Because for each cycle it was charged and discharged...

The more you charge a capacitor the harder become to keep charging it... Its "impedance" to a change in voltage increase as a function of the charge... Or likely the higher is the energy per unity charge implanted... voltage= joules/ coulomb

If the dielectric strength of the capacitor is surpassed it start to conduct electricity (dielectric breakdown) . 

If you put a charge in one plate of a capacitor and touch the other side to ground you get a charged capacitor. During the connection to the ground you generated energy transferring or consolidating the energy into the capacitor (by induction), discharging the capacitor generates it again. not stating its OU ok.

A capacitance may not be constant, being subjected to different voltages and frequencies even temperature and pressure affects it.

The smaller the capacitance, the greater is the energy per unity charge. V=Q/C

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=222228

http://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/water_dielectric.htm

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A dielectric containing ions.
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 18:35:52 pm »
When we consider a capacitor with a dielectric we know that without an electric field set up theres can be no energy stored inside.

Stanley meyer talks about taking out electrical energy and explosive energy from water and i would like to explore that idea.

I think is important for my self to write down my ideas for myself to understand them better.

A dielectric is a medium where there molecules that can suffer polarization when an external electric field is applied. This mean that the dielectric will have induced charges that oppose the free charge at the electrodes, meaning it creates a counter electric field that indeed reduce the effective E field of the same free charges in vacuum for the same separation.

Water's high dielectric constant comes from the fact that the molecules has an intrinsic dipole moment which let them to be tightly bound by hydrogen bonds, and so are not exactly free to align to the external field. Another fact that interferes with that is the thermal agitation.

Another thing that interferes is the free ions in water. In the sense that as you apply a charge to one plate inside water, this ions will try to get closer to the electrode while the counter ion is repelled by the electrode but still attracted by its counter part ion. This means there can be high non linearity in the capacitance behavior of water at certain electric fields levels. The higher the field the greater is the capacitance.

If we consider two conducting plates inside water and try to put charges on them, obviously at a certain point the charge leaks. Of course the faster it goes the less it leaks. But why it leaks?

Meyer talks in one patent that his technology does not introduce electrons to the water bath in the way electrolysis does.

How electrolysis does it?

Well it does so by creating an electric field enough to disrupt the electrostatic equilibrium of water, but it can only disrupt this electrostatic equilibrium because of the appliance of opposite charges. So it need to disrupt the equilibrium very little as it maintain the net charge 0! Is really hard to take out an electron from an insulator, and if you could do so it would be left with net positive charge, making it even harder to keep taking out electrons from it since it would strength the attraction force between the material and its electrons. This is indeed the same way metals develop a potential inside a solution.

I'm thinking that probably meyer applied such high charge to the electrodes at each time that he ionize the molecules and could deionize one ion at time, leaving the net charge in the water ready to be pick up by another outer electrode for example, this way although theres charge transfer, it does not occur like in electrolysis since it goes toward maximum non equilibrium to achieve this transfer of charge. 

Another way to upset this dielectric equilibrium could be to keep the ions busy and than apply high voltage frequency pulse..

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 20:56:14 pm »
The idea is to understand how water can generattoe electricity being a dielectric while being a source of electrons as meyer stated but at the same time becoming hydrogen and oxygen.

As is well known theres must be an electric field to do something with it and for that charges must be applied.

Meyer stated that electric potential do work and no energy is consumed if amps are prohibited to flow. of course there is some leaks as components are not perfect. what he is saying is that once you set up the charges they will create two things an electric field and a potential, those properties existence and location in space will depends on the materials and geometry. 

Meaning that there are some cases where theres can be potential which is constant but no electric field, but not the contrary. like inside a conductor like a van de graff.

So static electricity must come to play in a dynamic way. Forcing potential into the dielectric (polarization) such polarization could reveal the scope of the EEC. allowing it to work as a cell generating electricity and gas thus becoming a self sustained oscillation system as stan claims. 

potential difference is equivalent to the integral sum of the electric fields in dL.. simply V=E*r

E= Q/(4*PI*eo*r^2) (point charge)

is really hard to get into that by simply thinking, probably easier experimenting... but there might be some good logic behind. i try to do both... 

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 00:40:38 am »
What would occur if you could ionize H2 into H1?


Steve

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 04:54:36 am »
I think that if you get H2 pure gas and if an electric field in excess of that holding the diatomic molecules together is applied to it, they are going to dissociate into monoatomic atoms. Its known that monoatomic atoms has greater energy since it's an excited state of the stable diatomic molecule so when it wants to come back to equilibrium it releases the energy of the re formation of the diatomic bound normally as heat.
Anyway H2 is not polar, so is not like water as dielectric, its polarization is electronic not rotational.

In water the dipoles are not going anywhere they only kind of oscillate "around its center of mass" at a certain frequency which is function of the E field applied, an amplitude which depends on its initial position in the field.... anyway this oscillation is readily stop by thermal agitation.
But the ions can indeed move and they cause the screening of the charges of the electrodes and limiting the electric field to a region restricted to close to the electrode.

How close?

Lets map it?

« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 09:21:04 am by sebosfato »

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 17:43:38 pm »
To map it nicely you can use a multimeter and find equipotential lines...

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Re: PHYSICS OF DIELECTRICS
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 04:14:39 am »
you have an lamans explanation of an electret?