Author Topic: Resonance WFC  (Read 47934 times)

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 12:30:27 pm »
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?
First I want to make it simple, just one design. Two identical cavities but half sized clued on top of each other.
Thus water input at the bottom and gas output at the top of the delrin cavity.
Important is that the tube and rod are isolated from the outside water bath. This cavity could be put into a vase...
I want to see if this cavity can preform as a capacitor with water as dielectric.

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

I read multiple times that the RVIC tubes-set is compared with a "Resonance Cavity Cell"
I think this is false. The RVIC tubes-set is not a resonance setup. Try it yourself to maintain resonance manually with a variable capacitor (remember the potential values, larger field more gas, less current)

The RVIC and the PLATE WFCs are only made to demonstrate the different process to plain electrolysis for getting patents.
Stan made big improvements to the used polarization method. This produced the resonance idea and from this ultimately the Injector system.

I think the so called Tube notching on top of the tubes for the RVIC setup are gas flow vents or something? Not resonance fine tune notch...don't see how a notch is made at the side of the outer tube in a cavity...I am open for other theories.

br,
webmug
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 13:24:40 pm by webmug »

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 14:11:53 pm »
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

br,
webmug

Where did you read that again ?

Plz quote me this document .

What was that theory again warp of your efficient RVIC discovery that turned out to be not working apparently ?
 That old story of yours remember ? God dam you tried hard with that thing ... Dam ol Warp  ;)

That RVIC was car powered , or gas motor powered, not electric motor powered . Nobody is gonna turn an RVIC at more than 400 hz with a house current motor .

I made a superior power supply to test those 3 phase concepts that you can all purchase soon .

What was that theory again warp ?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 15:42:20 pm by Dankie »

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 14:36:55 pm »
Good stuff webmug

The RVIC setup may not be resonant, but it did run the dune buggy, so the merit is there. Also we don't know what is in the control box for the RVIC set up, so there is much to learn there as well.


back to the topic of the resonance wfc, the insulation is there to eliminate "voltage coupling" to water bath - not just current coupling... meaning you want the electric field from the tube to be contained in the delrin and focused in the cavity, the point being, I am under the impression that the delrin should be sufficiently thick, and that a thin casing my not prevent the so-called "voltage coupling" to the water bath. This may or my not be an important factor in the design of the cell, it won't stop you from reaching resonance.... but it is something that may be of value.

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 14:56:36 pm »
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

br,
webmug

Where did you read that again ?

Plz quote me this document .
What I mean due contaminants in the water the frequency is not one. Stan calls this "harmonic effects". These are different frequencies (bandwidth).

"Because resonances of different waters, water volumes, and capacitor cells vary, the resonant scanning circuit of Figure 8 is useful. The scanning circuit o Figure 8 scans frequency from high to low to high repeating until a signal lock is determined. The ferromagnetic core of the voltage intensifier circuit transformer suppresses electron surge in an out-of-resonance condition of the fuel cell. In an example, the circuit scans at frequencies from 0 Hz to 10 KHz t 0 Hz. In water having contaminants in the range of 1 ppm to 20 ppm, a 20% variance in resonant frequency is encountered. Depending on water flow rate into fuel cell, the normal variance range is about 8-10%. For example, iron in well water affects the status of molecular disassociation. Also, at a resonant condition harmonic effects occur. In a typical operation of the cell with a representative water capacitor described below, at a frequency of about 5 KHz at unipolar pulses from 0 to 650 volts at a sensed resonant condition into the resonant cavity, conversion of about 5 gallons of water per hour into a fuel gas will occur on average. To increase the rate, multiple resonant cavities can be used and/or the surfaces of the water capacitor can be increased, however, the water capacitor cell is preferably small in scale. A typical water capacitor may be formed from a 0.5 inch in diameter stainless steel rod and a 0.75 inch inside diameter cylinder that together extend concentrically about 3.0 inches with respect to each other.

Shape and size of the resonant cavity may vary. Larger resonant cavities and higher rates of consumption of water in the conversion process require higher frequencies such as up to 50 KHz and above. The pulsing rate, to sustain such high rates of conversion must be correspondingly increased.

From the foregoing description of the preferred embodiment, other variations and modifications of the system disclosed will be evident to those of skill in the art. "

patent WO1992007861A1.pdf

br,
webmug

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 15:28:03 pm »
 It would be simpler to design a system that will turn a little pot nob no ? 20% is not far away ? How fast does tht lock need to be ? It aint fast with all those cmos chips thats 4 sure , that circuit needs an update for 74hc . IMO There is no resonance changing in a single pulse train burst , that circuit would never have the speed for that kind of rapid change  . Its more a long term thing is what I'm trying to say .

It seems like harmonics is more cause and effect , the resonance is always in a range of 20% frequency .

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 16:22:43 pm »
It would be simpler to design a system that will turn a little pot nob no ? 20% is not far away ? How fast does tht lock need to be ? It aint fast with all those cmos chips thats 4 sure , that circuit needs an update for 74hc . IMO There is no resonance changing in a single pulse train burst , that circuit would never have the speed for that kind of rapid change  . Its more a long term thing is what I'm trying to say .

It seems like harmonics is more cause and effect , the resonance is always in a range of 20% frequency .
Yes, but Stan writes this as an example...
"From the foregoing description of the preferred embodiment, other variations and modifications of the system disclosed will be evident to those of skill in the art. "

Seriously, the electronics used are almost 20 years old, these can be better/faster build.
Didn't Stan made the circuits the KISS method?
A frequency generator with a POT is not a KISS method for keeping it in resonance, I don't want to adjust the thing all the time manually, when you have multiple cavity cells. 8)

br,
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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 16:50:03 pm »
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/4x3inchDelrinWFC.jpg)

New thought for a 4 tube cell. Then again the delrin thickness between tubes *might* be too thin for proper isolation and insulation.

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Re: Resonance WFC
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 22:59:15 pm »
Capacitance of Concentric Cylinders

"where the capacitance per unit length is not a function of either the charge on the system or L itself. The only parameters that matter are the radii of the cylindrical shells. This should be expected because capacitance is a feature of a system's geometry and does not depend on applied charges or potentials."

http://www.davidpace.com/physics/em-topics/capacitance-cylinders.htm

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1298.msg14419.html#msg14419
Chapter 4 "quote":
There are actually two principal mechanisms by which electric fields can distort
the charge distribution of a dielectric atom or molecule: stretching and rotating.

What happens to a neutral atom when it is placed in an electric field E? Your first guess
might well be: "Absolutely nothing-since the atom is not charged, the field has no effect
on it." But that is incorrect. Although the atom as a whole is electrically neutral, there is a
positively charged core (the nucleus) and a negatively charged electron cloud surrounding
it. These two regions of charge within the atom are influenced by the field: the nucleus
is pushed in the direction of the field, and the electrons the opposite way. In principle, if
the field is large enough, it can pull the atom apart completely, "ionizing" it (the substance
then becomes a conductor). With less extreme fields, however, an equilibrium is soon
established, for if the center of the electron cloud does not coincide with the nucleus, these
positive and negative charges attract one another, and this holds the atoms together. The
two opposing forces-E pulling the electrons and nucleus apart, their mutual attraction
drawing them together-reach a balance, leaving the atom polarized, with plus charge
shifted slightly one way, and minus the other. The atom now has a tiny dipole moment
p, which points in the same direction as E. Typically, this induced dipole moment is
approximately proportional to the field (as long as the latter is not too strong):
p=aE. (4.1)
The constant of proportionality a is called atomic polarizability. Its value depends on the
detailed structure of the atom in question.

For molecules the situation is not quite so simple, because frequently they polarize
more readily in some directions than others.

Problem 4.1 A hydrogen atom (with the Bohr radius of half an angstrom) is situated between
two metal plates 1 mm apart, which are connected to opposite terminals of a 500 V battery.
What fraction of the atomic radius does the separation distance d amount to, roughly? Estimate
the voltage you would need with this apparatus to ionize the atom. [Use the value of alpha in Table
4.1. Moral: The displacements we're talking about are minute, even on an atomic scale.]

For H atom!!!
E = 500V
x = 1 10^-3
Atomic polarizabilities H = 0.667 -> table 4.1 (Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 78th ed.)

1 eV = 1.602 10^-19 C
1 debye = 3.33564 10^-30 Cm
p = dipole moment
E = electric field
E0 = 8.85 10^-12
R = bohr radius 1.0 10^-10
alpha = atomic polarizability

Problem 4.1
E =V/x =500 / 1 10^-3 =5 10^5
Table 4.1: alpha / 4 pi E0 =0.66 10^-30, so alpha = 4 pi (8.85 10^-12)(0.66 10^-30)= 7.34 10^-41
p =alpha E = e d => d =alpha E / e =(7.34 10^-41)(5 10^5)/(1.6 10^-19)=2.29 10^-16 m
d / R =(2.29 10^-16) / (0.5 10^-10) =14.6 10^-6

To ionize, say d = R. Then R = alpha E / e = alpha V / e x =>
V = R e x / alpha =(0.5 10^-10)(1.6 10^-19)(1 10^-3) / (7.34 10^-41) =1 10^8 V

So that's a lot of Volts for ionizing the H atom. When ionized, it becomes a conductor, so I think SM didn't ionize the water molecules. Only polarize the molecule (dipole moment point to the direction of the E field) thus rotating the molecule...

The dipole moment of water is 6.1 10^-30 Cm (polar molecule) but torque is N =  p E in a uniform field E. If the E field is non-uniform, so that F+ does not exactly balance F-, there will be a net force on the dipole, in addition to the torque. Of course, E must change rather abruptly for there to be significant variation in the space of one molecule.

br,
webmug
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 13:41:36 pm by webmug »