Author Topic: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell  (Read 35142 times)

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2009, 00:30:18 am »
the basic goal of the scr is to switch on and off

when i built the circuit as shown it did nothing. i gave up working on the circuit about a year ago  . i played with it for four months  i tried about 40 diffrent scr  methods each one created  a diffrent wave.

their are very few scr ciruits that involve one scr i tried all the ones i could find none did anything that would be considered great

i had a coil of close to what dynodon has described

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2009, 01:26:15 am »
the basic goal of the scr is to switch on and off

when i built the circuit as shown it did nothing. i gave up working on the circuit about a year ago  . i played with it for four months  i tried about 40 diffrent scr  methods each one created  a diffrent wave.

their are very few scr ciruits that involve one scr i tried all the ones i could find none did anything that would be considered great

i had a coil of close to what dynodon has described

why ? ..

Ok it shouldnt be hard to switch something on and off  , what is the voltage going there seriously lol ?

OFC good synchro will be needed ... So what does it do when you get it pulsing right , wich is rather simple  , you were mentionning 'ripples' .

How did you see those ripples in a closed tube ?

What was production and power used @ source ?






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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2009, 04:36:08 am »
Question: Is there anything "special" about this pulsing circuit, compared to say, a pulse generator, or a Jolt Circuit?

Because I have a Jolt Circuit (tho I never got it operational, because I'm inexperienced with that stuff, i'll play with it when I get a scope going), and I may be able to get my hands on an old Pulse Generator from my engineering lab (not sure if it still works but worth a try).


But then if I get the blocking diode, and build those chokes.... will I be in action?

I'm thinking I'll build a variable plate unit, I can see a lot of potential for good tests. I am thinking I would make the space-adjusting-device a lot simpler, by having a rotating knob come straight out the side.

In fact, I just decided to draw a picture of my first impression of how I would design the cell.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/VariableSpacingPlateCell.jpg)

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2009, 06:10:19 am »
This isn't really on topic, but I just read this post and it caught my eye, so I want to save it, and i'll come back to it in the future

stevie1001 - i agree with you (that the VIC is a modified transformer).  I am new to the forum, and have been in researching mode for about 3 months now.  My theories are these:

1. the VIC is a modified "flyback (LOPT) transformer" - like those found in old B&W televisions
    1a. the modification being the chokes
2. the key to high gas production is resonance of an LRC circuit (the WFC being the capacitor and the FBT being the inductor).

My research and circuit modelling has been 100% dedicated to reproducing the following S.Meyer electronics:
1. The VIC
2. The PLL (phase locked loop)
3. The "resonance scanning circuit"
However, i am not doing this with a cell; this is pure modelling and trying to understand.  I am endeavoring to have complete working replicas of these circuits before attempting any water fracturing/electrolysis.  This may seem asinine to some, but it makes sense to me...


I currently have a working PLL circuit which will lock phase between 85Hz and 1040Hz.  This is way too low for use in a WFC, so I am currently working to expand the range since in a WFC we'll need something which can go to ~20-50KHz (and a FBT has a much more narrow freq range - unlike regular transformers).  ...I can put together a schmatic of my PLL and post if anyone is interested, but its usable freq range is limited.  Its basically a phase comparator, an op-amp, a voltage control oscillator (VCO), 4 resistors, and two capacitors.

Stan's "resonance scanning circuit" is my main focus - but i've had (very) limited sucess.  It's basically an AC sweep and a circuit which calculates the resonant freq of any LRC circuit where the capacitance of C is an unknown quantity.  Once the res freq is "found" it would then feed that back to the PLL which is connected to the VIC (aka FBT) primary winding.  Right now i am using fixed capacitor quanities in dedicated LRCs to test my RSCs on (not a WFC).

I have not done much to date with the VIC (beyond beliving it is a modified flyback transformer) and as such have begun to collect and dismantle old B&W television sets (when i come across them).

I believe the (left-side) schematic of the VIC in Stan's International Patent (I'm referring to the PCT World Intellectual Property Organization [WO 92/07861] document) looked (to me) strangely identical to a schematic of a flyback (LOPT) transformer I came across at:  http://www.powerlabs.org/flybackdriver.htm

Then simply doing a goolge search for "flyback transformer", i got these links:
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flywda
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flyhft

...some very interesting qualities in a FBT...

I remembered Stan lecturing (1st
lecture video on:  http://www.waterfuelcell.org/index.html) on how the VIC worked, and he was talking about how industry has known for years that Voltage (not Amperage) can be made to do work.  He then cited CRTs and a particle accelerator.  So i said "hmmm".  Take a flyback transformer and then add some chokes to it...  the pickup winding on the flyback is connected to the PLL...?  Since a FBT "self-resonates", are we looking for the resonance of the WFC, or the VIC?!...  TBD...

In any event, sorry for being a "loiterer".  I was just researching - there is a lot of "misleading and/or junk" out there.  As i said, i have not actually built a cell yet; so hydrocars needn't worry about my stealing anything.  And i'm not trying to make any money on this - just trying to learn electronics and participate.

My main goal is to get a working "resonance scanning circuit" built - I promise to post anything I get to work.  I believe resonance is key, and since the capacitance in the WFC/LRC will always be variable due to physical configuration of the cell, contaminants in the water, consumption of water during gas production, and any other electronics in the LRC (including the VIC/FBT).  I believe the RSC circuit (and the PLL) are therefore key (to "high gas production").  Otherwise, it is just "efficient electrolysis" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing either...)


I am working these circuits b/c most attempts I've seen at S.Meyer reproductions are focused solely on the:  1) Cell, 2) VIC, 3) Alternator (or other power), 4) Pulse/Freq gererator (or other PWM).  ***but not the resonance***  I figured i would try to do something else to cover more ground...


also apologies in advance if i am redundantly covering anything already covered.  I'll admit i have not read through the entire forum...


If anyone happens to have both an unrectified FBT and a cell, i'd be extremely interested in seeing what kind of gas output you get from:  12VDC pulsed sq.wave 50% duty through the FBT into the cell (w/o chokes or any other electronics).  worst case - i'll end up trying this myself, but it'll be a while yet, since i still have to build a cell.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture30.png)

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2009, 16:45:02 pm »
More thoughts,

Why do I get the feeling that Stan successfully created/used longitudinal impulses to charge a di-pole.
These so called longitudinal impulses are actually TIME IMPULSES. When the pulse is shut off, the collapsed SPIKE is pure voltage potential with NO current. That is why it is virtually a straight line. You're converting work back into potential. Was the so called BLOCKING DIODE used to double the voltage potential and not the frequency?

I still do not believe that Stan used so called resonance to create large currents through the WFC. This explains that his WFC didn't get hot. Remember that batteries can be charged with only current (hot), but also with only voltage (cold). A battery is also a di-pole, just like a WFC.
The transformer creates high voltage pulses and sends these in a inductor, which is creating a SPIKE when high voltage pulse is shut off. Then charging the plates. When SPIKE hits the DIODE the SPIKE charges the plates again, thus doubles the potential. Because the plates must be hit equal, Stan used two identical inductors to SPIKE the plates (di-pole) the same but opposite voltage potential seen as inductor L2 is connected to ground?

I still can not see a KISS solution 8) how to connect the parts (FBT, CHOKE, WFC) and get them to resonate.

First, a FBT resonates on about 15kHz to generate 20-30kHz (BW 20kV) 1-30mA depending on load. So we are only using/consuming current in the primary. Could be 4Amps at 24V.
So if you PULSE the FBT into resonance, what kind of signal do we generate on the output? AC is it?

Second, when HV AC is fed into a HV LOW CURRENT DIODE, this signal is halve rectified, thus we generate pulsed DC. Then sending it into a choke. When pulse is shut off the choke is SPIKING big times, HV DIODE is blocking it...this doubles the voltage at the plates. Because HV DIODE is BLOCKING it, the step charging occurs...?

The main problem (of many other problems ::)):

Do we want to control the pulse into the FBT? YES. The FBT is resonating at 15kHz?
Do we want to control the pulse into the choke? YES/NO Is it also in resonance with the plates etc. ? Why did Stan use a PLL, to get efficient frequency...but where did het connected the PLL?

When the step charge occurs, the resistance of the water changes, so does this has effects on the FBT secondary load? When YES, the resonance frequency has changed and a PLL must adjust this frequency?

So Stan used voltage potential to charge the di-pole and stress the water dielectric to tear the water molecule apart and used no current at all. Gating was used to temporally stop the SPIKING (charging).

Does someone pulsed and gated a FBT and seen the output signal?

br,
webmug

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2009, 18:09:26 pm »
Good thoughts.

I think someone should try the above flyback circuit, and see what it does to a tube set, if it self resonates, then all you need is a gate.... maybe it'll work?

I wonder where the HV diode is in a flyback, and how to get it out!

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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2009, 18:25:09 pm »
Good thoughts.

I think someone should try the above flyback circuit, and see what it does to a tube set, if it self resonates, then all you need is a gate.... maybe it'll work?

I wonder where the HV diode is in a flyback, and how to get it out!

Do you want the DIODE out of the transformer? Is it a BLOCKING DIODE?
Most FBT work on mains voltage 110V/230V. It is possible to modify this FBT for 12V.
http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/fly/index.html

br,
webmug



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Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2010, 23:45:52 pm »
The resistor before the optocoupler, it's 100 ohms... but it's also 25 watts, 25 watts is huge for a resistor.

Does it really need to be this large?

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=10M5288&CMP=AFC-TL10000001

The closest thing I have on hand is a 204 ohm (measured, 220 marked) 20 watt resistor, it's white ceramic type material. Could this work?