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The basics of electrolysis
« on: July 15, 2009, 20:02:35 pm »
Here are the basics of electrolysis. Most research was done by Tero.
My dryplatecell is a variant on his research.
 
 
Low Voltage Electrolysis
 
I think everyone should probably start where they feel they will have the most success. Although low voltage is a completely different approach and has nothing to do with the Water Fuel Cell, I and many others are open minded and optimistic that low voltage electrolysis might give rise to new efficiencies over 100%. The ultimate goal would  be able to supply enough gas to power a vehicle on demand.
 
Before you waste time experimenting on something that has already been done before or asking people silly questions on forums, read this information below and refer to books in the resource section. I am going to compile a great resource for experimenters in low voltage electrolysis.
 
I have created this section on low voltage electrolysis to give answers or a guide to these topics.
 
How to produce a efficient electrolyser?
How much hydrogen/oxygen do I have to generate per minute to run a small engine?
 
First Things First:  Understand Electrolysis
 
Click here to learn about Electrolysis
 
There are plenty of people building different types of electrolysers on the forums.
I will try and fast track the learning process by teaching you what I have learned. I will base this on what I have read in books and observed from other experimenters.
 
 
 
                                   How to Produce a Efficient Electrolyser
 
 
 
Things that need to be considered
Electrical Efficiency
Temperature
Pressure
Cell design
Calculate the Efficiency of your Cell
Electrolyte
Recent Patent Discoveries for Increasing Gas Production
Different types of hydrogen production
 
 
Electrical Efficiency
 
 
Hydrogen/oxygen generated during electrolysis is dependent on current (amperage)
If voltage is to rise higher than the lower limit then power is wasted. (refer below)
 
For example:  An electrolyser using 2000 volts and 2amp would produce approximately the same amount of gas as a 2 volts and 2amp electrolyser.
 
When calculating the power in watts, you can really see how much power you are wasting.  (refer below)
 
2000 volts x 2amp = 4000watts 
 
Compared to:
 
 2 volts x 2amp = 4 watts
 
That's pretty amazing !
 
The lowest voltage, theoretically, is 1.24 volts for electrolysis.
 
This is the best explanation I have on why, is that 1.24 volts is the minimum.
 
Quote from this link
 
"This theoretical figure was determined by taking the energy released
per mole when hydrogen is burned. Using that figure, and knowing
how many amp hours are needed to produce 1 mole of gas, they
calculated the theoretical minimum voltage."
 
Definition of a mole here
 
I need a better explanation why the minimum voltage is 1.24 Volts. I am open to your input. Please also provide a link if possible. contact me.
 
 
Lowering the voltage means higher efficiencies.
 
 
 
 
Temperature
 
 
At 25 degree Celsius Using voltages between 1.24 and 1.47 Volts will not produce heat it actually absorbs heat from the environment. This is called a endothermic reaction.
 
1.481 volts is referred to as a thermo neutral reaction. This is the critical limit.  Our electrolysis chamber will actually remain cold or similar temp to the environment you have it in, if you don't go over the 1.481 Volt limit. If you do go over, you will produce heat this is called a Exothermic reaction.
 
See this information that explains a thermo neutral reaction (need a link....contact me )
 
Raising the voltage means the cell temp will rise. This occurs when exceeding the 1.481 limit. We don't want to exceed this upper limit too far because of the risk of boiling/evaporation. We waste power and it may produce steam/Water vapor. This will enter the combustion chamber leading to a decrease in power.
 
I have recently read an article that pulsing the voltage will regulate the temperature when exceeding voltages above 1.481.  See here
 
 
 
Important Fact on Temperature
 
 
 
At 25 degrees Celsius the necessary voltage needed to electrolyses water is 1.24 volts. Increasing the cell temperature will actually lower the 1.24 volt limit.
 
For Every 1 degree Celsius raised during this voltage level you can drop the 1.24 Volt minimum by 0.82mv.
 
I believe the best way to heat the cell will be to capture any heat that will be given of by the engine friction or exhaust gases. thoughts?
 
 
 
 Important fact on Pressure
 
 
Raising cell pressure means you raise the lower voltage limit. bad news !
 
 
With rising cell temperature for every degree Celsius it increases the necessary voltage by 44.4 mv when the pressure is increased 10 times.
 
 
 
 
 
What sought of design should I choose for my cell design?
 
 
News Flash
 
This is the Best Electrolyser I have seen see here. This is made by Tero!
 
  Lets get familiar with the best cell configurations I will use a 12volt source in the examples
 
 
 
 
 Series cell design
 
 
 
Important Note
 
If you don't isolate the cells like I have described above your voltage per cell
will look like this
 
 
 
negative plate
 
2.22 V
1.16V
.89V
.77V
.72V
.69V
.92V
1.06V
1.41V
1.80V
 
Positive plate
 
I have been informed that the above is due to bypass leakage currents so the only way to stop this from happening is to isolate the cells within the container so no electrolyte can pass between, like I have shown above.
 
note....
 
It has just been found that a very small hole drilled through all the plates to give electrolyte equalization will cause minimal current bypass within a acceptable limit......so this is good news!
 
 
 
Calculate the Efficiency of your Cell
 
 
If your wanting to see how efficient your cell is download Warj's calculator (Part 8) . This is very well done and makes everyones life alot easier, see here
 
If you prefer you may want to use this information supplied be Tero here or the Electrolysis Site or just plug in the values here  titled (hydrogen.exe executable) and it will spit it out.
 
A general note on efficiency ( A forum post by Tero)
 
Hi,
Willard's efficiency number (2.3516W/LPH) refers to oxyhydrogen
volume (2/3 H2 and 1/3 O2 per volume). The number will be different
for hydrogen only.
For all practical purposes 1.47V cell voltage will be 100% efficient
electrolyzer. The endothermic value 1.23V would be 120% efficient, as
part of the input energy would come from the ambient thermal energy.
Tero
 
 
 
Electrode spacing and Electrolyte
 
A 3mm gap is thought to be a good clearance to have between plates in a electrolyser, but this has been suspected of causing problems with foaming in Tero's design and we will be soon experimenting with a 8mm gap.
 
You must choose a electrolyte such as Potassium hydroxide (KOH) and use distilled water.  It has always been the recommended electrolyte for the main reason that it stays in the electrolyte and does not cause a toxic gas such as chlorine when using salt as a electrolyte.
 
more on choosing the appropriate ratio of KOH  and other information/dangers See here
 
 
 
Power source 
 
 
The most common is a 12-volt battery but as we discussed above voltage must be around 1.24 and 1.47 or just over for  efficient production. A series cell design may be the most economical approach. This will reduce the voltage. Refer to the series cell designs above.
 
A regulated, pulsed, or variable power supply may be suitable, but large amperage is needed for most cells these types of power supply can be expensive and hard to find.  Twelve volts batteries in parallel will supply a lot of current. Make sure you use a series cell design to cut down the voltage.
 
I was also thinking of rectifying the output of a AC arc welder and feeding this into a series cell design. An arc welder usually produces around 50 volt and pumps out around 100amp. More information to be given on this later. I will give it some more thought.
 
 
Backflash Arrestor
 
 
Many people use bubblers. See here at oupower.
 
Bubblers help in giving you some sought of protection from the cell exploding,  so don't think you don't need it. There is no backflash arrestor I know of that is quick enough to stop a hydrogen/oxygen flame.
 
Stanley Meyer  worked on the principle of the gas traveling through very small  holes stopped the backflash, but it needed to be mixed with non combustible gasses.
 
See the Hydrogen Fracturing Process book
section 2 Titled Quenching circuit technology (specifically
2-3 for written information) and figure 2-4, 2-6, 2-7
 
 
There may be another way!
 
If the hydrogen/oxygen is injected before spark ignition occurs, then the injector will be closed before the gas is even ignited. It also has another advantage of being precisely metered. I think port injection might be the best option, but a specific hydrogen injector might have to be used and definitely a bubbler.
 
A problem that exists with single cylinder four stroke engines is that the spark occurs on the exhaust stroke as well as the firing stroke. The combustion occurs on the exhaust stroke (Backfire). This is because the unburnt hydrogen gases reignite!
 
 
I think all of the methods above are dangerous and I do not advise anyone to use any methods, so it's at your own risk.

Different Types of Hydrogen
 
 
There are four different atomic forms of  hydrogen these are:
 
Orthohydrogen
Parahydrogen
Monatomic Hydrogen
Diatomic Hydrogen
 
At atmospheric pressure and 25degress Celsius hydrogen gas is 75% orthohydrogen and 25% Parahydrogen. When Hydrogen gas is liquefied, it all converts into Parahydrogen.
 
Orthydrogen
 
Orthohydrogen electrons spin in the same direction and the gas is very explosive.
The Xogen Patent seems to think it is ideal for combustion engines.
 
quote from patent
 
"As is well understood by those skilled in the art, orthohydrogen is highly combustible. Therefore, any orthohydrogen produced can be transported from the container 111 through valve 102 and outlet tube 101 to be used by a device such as an internal combustion engine."
 
Parahydrogen
 
Parahydrogen  has electrons spinning in opposite directions , is slower burning, and is safer to use.
 
Quote from Xogen Patent
 
"Parahydrogen is not as highly combustible as orthohydrogen and
hence is a slower burning form of hydrogen. Thus, if Parahydrogen
is produced by the cell, the Parahydrogen can be coupled to a
suitable device such as a cooker or a furnace to provide a source of power
or heat with a slower flame."
 
Monatomic hydrogen
 
Monatomic hydrogen is thought of as more explosive because it travels as a single gas atom (H) and doesn't cling to other hydrogen atoms. This makes it great for combustion because it is less work to break it down.
 
If a feasible way exists to make Monatomic Hydrogen it will increase power.
 
Also See this information on Browns gas (See both pages)
 
also these definition and story on Bob Boyce
 
 
 
Diatomic hydrogen
 
Diatomic hydrogen is thought of as less explosive because it travel in groups of hydrogen (H2) atoms. There is more work needed to combust this gas and is thought of as less explosive.
 
See this information: Browns gas (See both pages)
 
Also these definition and story on Bob Boyce
 
Xogen seem to have the orthohydrogen part under control with the pulsing of the plates see the patent work needs to be done on our behalf to figure out how to produce these gases. I need more information for this section Please Help.
 
Brown gas seems to have the monatomic hydrogen solved.
 
What I think we need to produce is monatomic hydrogen that is in a orthohydrogen state. 
That's my thought, but I might be wrong?
 
This may suit our electrolysers and Combustion engines. We may only need 1% of gas in the combustion chamber.
 
 
 
How Much Hydrogen and Oxygen Do I Have to Generate Per Minute
to Run a Small Engine?
 
 
By what I understand using a stoichiometric air fuel ratio will result in high NOX emissions.  This is not good for the environment and is a waste of fuel. It needs to be diluted with more air.
 
Hydrogen can run at ratios 180 to 1 by mass ratio or in other words about 5% of the combustion chamber. The stoichiometric ratio is a lot higher 34 to 1 by mass, that's about 30% of the combustion chamber. Using the 5% ratio suits the environment and us!
 
So lets do the math and see how much hydrogen we need to power a 100cc engine running at 1000rpm.
 
A four stroke engine doing 1000 revolutions per minute will fire 500 times, so we only need to supply fuel for that 500 compression strokes. If you are not familiar  with the four stroke cycle see this.
 
The minimum required fuel air ratio is 5% hydrogen in the combustion chamber, so that equals 5cc in a 100cc engine.
 
500 ignitions x 5cc of hydrogen = 2500cc
 
So that means for a 100cc engine, we need 2.5 liters of hydrogen per minute for a engine running at 1000rpm.
 
I wonder if I am correct?
 
Now if we use this calculator here titled (hydrogen.exe executable) we can work out using electrolysis how much current we need to pump through a electrolyser. See results below:
 
Hydrogen Gas ...................2.5 liters
 
Water required .................3ml (disassociated)
 
Electrical current required.... 328 amps
 
Time to generate................60 seconds
 
 
If you use port injection, high energy ignition system, High compression Ratio etc it may be possible to use this low ratio?.....who knows ?...that's why we need to find out.
 
 
Warj has created 2 calculators.
see part 7 and 8 here
Elements Themeset
Part 7 is a calculator for how much hydrogen a car will take to run
Part 8 is a calculator for how much hydrogen you are making, and efficiency status
This is great work by Warj, I really appreciate it.
 
 
 
 
Design Considerations
 
I feel that a pipe feed electrolyser going to a small 100cc engine, that is not properly regulating, will result in huge wasteful amount being uncombusted and would run out of gas very quickly! The first few strokes would gobble up all the gas. I think either a proper injection system or a  regulated hydrogen/oxygen gas supply will be the only way.
 
Some people speculate you can go even lower than the minimum 5% ratio. I don't know.  This is why we need to experiment and build a electrolyser and get a small engine running.
 
Also something that I have not equated for in the calculation above was the extra oxygen being created by the electrolyser and entering the combustion chamber as well as the hydrogen. This must certainly help in aiding the combustion process, doesn’t it?
 
For more information see download this called Module 3 Hydrogen: Use in a Internal Combustion Engine.
 
 
 Recent Patent Discoveries for Increasing Gas Production
 
 
Here are some past posts from Tero from the Egas forum
 
Hi,
I found a patent (US4184931) by Inoue that claims pulsed electrolysis
with KOH electrolyte produces 25% increase in gas output with the gas
moisture (=electrolyte vapor) content reduced five times at the same
gas output level. I consider this a very good development, because I
have had lots of problems with foaming and electrolyte vapor while
running my small engines on oxyhydrogen (practically straight DC).
Download here
The patent recommends 5-50ms ON time with OFF times 2..30 times the
OF time.
I believe you should use a large capacitor between power supply and
switch FET so that you get really high current peaks to further
improve electrolyzer efficiency. Bockris reported in the 70s that you
get about twice the gas output by using very narrow but very high
current spikes instead of straight DC.
The patent also claims that by using narrow pulses instead of
straight DC improves the gas output from 55cc/min to 68cc/min. The
KOH vapor content in the output gas is reduced from 15% to 3%.

Tero
 
 
 
Hi,
I just found a very interesting and detailed patent about electrolysis
using spiral swiss roll type electrodes with permanent magnets to
create a vortex. It's a conventional electrolysis cell with
magnetically assisted ion transport.
Download here
The patent claims that the single cell produces 0.116 liters / sec =
417.6 liters/hour at 2.8V 30A.
Normal electrolysis would produce about 19 liters/hour at 30A, so it's
about 20 times Faraday. Very interesting.
Tero
 
 
What Do We Need to Find Out?
 
 
We all need to experiment and work as a team to find solutions to the possibility of running a car on water and find answers to the following:
 
 
Different frequencies may increase gas production?
100 % orthohydrogen production maybe from electrical pulsing?
Vacuum electrolysis. This is what I am interested in. The theory is from others who have experimented with this approach is that you may be able to suck of the bubbles from the electrodes, so electrolysis can continue to produce more gas. Also there might be other mysteries associated with the vacuum?
Different ways to Electrolyze water below 1.24 Volts.
Using different types of hydrogen to lower the 5% minimum requirement in occupying the combustion chamber for combustion to occur.
Direct Injection system to precisely meter/monitor gas supply and prevent gas wastage.
Back flash arrestor that can handle the speed of Hydrogen and oxygen flame or are we stuck with using a pop off valve of some sought?
 
 
 
 

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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 01:21:24 am »
Hi steve

I believe the minimum voltage potential goes over that

WIth my tests i found that for the electrodes i'm using the minimum voltage possible to create was 1,44 or something like that. I believe that using different electrodes materials (maybe zirconia or semiconductors like...) you can achieve lower voltage than that but you are going to have to do with half reactions working on the electrodes, i'm up to that. However High voltage field as meyer intended could switch off the covalent bounding and i believe it have to do with the ability of lower the minimum voltage. Because of interactions of the force created by the field. This condition would lead theoretically to make the water cell to become the power supply of the resonant tank) I believe this is the problem with stabilizing the cold fusion reaction) I also think that permanent magnets would be of great help to distort the molecule even further and helping to avoid the recombination. Lasers would help the half reactions think about...

About the orthohydrogen i never found any real physics or chemistry serious enough to believe papers(about how to generate it), they may exist and if you have some good source other than wiki please post it.

I would like to ask you also the patent number that have more than 20x faraday you mentioned please.

Thanks
and congratulations for your grade of understanding




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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 18:21:44 pm »
All,

In electrolysis the electrons on the outside of the electrode passing the current thru the electrode to the ions of the water.

The electrons are there because of the system we use to get current into the wfc.

Can i assume that it is the amount of electrons that set the electrolysis proces from the outside in motion?
If so, could it be possible to use a Van der Graaf generator or ionized negative air to pump electrons towards the electrode and having electrolysis as result?

Steve



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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 06:46:01 am »
Hi steve i think not the only way to create ions inside pure water without electrolyte is to adding something like a catalyst maybe palladium witch can absorb hydrogen creating ions inside the water without being destructed, than high amp resonance ... boom

Hello guys

I think i found something...

Meyer said

" and the water de-energized will go to the atmosphere and be again energized by the incoming sun rays...

What if he was having at his exhaust:

OH-
or H3O+
or something like that

What do you think is the energy needed to break this into h2 again if it is already at 600°C?

Do you know that at this temperature there is laser energy everywhere, IR energy... ?

What if the magnetic fields could change the attraction forces witch holds the molecule together?

5000 gauss magnetic field a neodymium magnet can provide easily...even more and it would lose its magnetism only if get too hot...

Meyer used a heat sink...

Just some food for your thoughts

Some Quantum Chemistry would make lot of good to you guys
also
Atomic and Molecular Physics

Regards

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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2010, 09:39:31 am »
hi Fabio,

you are right that we dont know exact what happens if you burn hho with air in an ice.

It would be interesting to measure that.....
maybe soon..

steve

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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2010, 10:40:01 am »
Hi steve

That was my guess of the day,

tutanka keeps talking about pure water and nitrogen and meyer only showed once the N atoms ...
Do you think there might be something strange?

Today i had a lesson about capacitance and i learned how to make the cylindrical capacitance calculation too i guess... being everything in meters i believe would be better than parallel plates being rods inside ... the one with a b and ln ...

ln is a function opposite to the exponential one...


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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 02:36:52 am »
thinking about that

if we assume the exhaust could be OH ions there would be a strange gain in volume because there would be more molecules at the output, maybe this would give more" thermal energy expansion " i was thinking that if we could burn H2 + O we would have H20 output however if we burn H2+2O   then output would be -OH + -OH the double of oxygens would interact in the combustion chamber... What do you think about ??? Maybe this -OH's need a bit of photon energy to reach an equilibrium and become water again.... aka re energize...


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Re: The basics of electrolysis
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 10:30:35 am »
thinking about that

if we assume the exhaust could be OH ions there would be a strange gain in volume because there would be more molecules at the output, maybe this would give more" thermal energy expansion " i was thinking that if we could burn H2 + O we would have H20 output however if we burn H2+2O   then output would be -OH + -OH the double of oxygens would interact in the combustion chamber... What do you think about ??? Maybe this -OH's need a bit of photon energy to reach an equilibrium and become water again.... aka re energize...

Fabio,

I did some reading on cars running on hydrogen and there is lots to read on the net. The output of the exhaust  which they all mention are:
Water(vapour) and NOx.
No other elements so far.
I will continue reading on this.

Ciao