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Stanley Meyer => Stanley Meyer => Stanley's Vic => Topic started by: johnbostick on December 28, 2008, 00:41:39 am

Title: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 28, 2008, 00:41:39 am
I own a CNC Coil Winding Machine.  I bought 6lb of the 430FR SS wire from Dankie.
I have the bobbins I intend to use for the Vic Coil.  If anyone would like for me to wind their coil for them I will for nominal fee to cover my time and material.

I have tensioners for all sizes down to 48 AWG

I have in stock

Thermalex /200 (heavy build)
41 AWG
36 AWG
28 AWG

Thermalex /200 data sheet attached
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2008, 19:45:16 pm
I dont know if it was by pure luck but you stumbled on almost the perfect ratio . Good work John .... you lucked out on this one ...



I will try to respect Stans words... I  will respect the ratio of wire circumference ... Stan suggests 30 awg wire for primary , 44 awg wire for secondary and suggest 38 awg for the stainless chokes  ( .004 )

So stan suggests .004 wire .... but we have .005 ..... but stan suggests .006 for the coil @ figure 10-4 ... so I had to split the middle and go .005

He suggests 30 awg for the primary  (.01 inch) , the circumference of .004 wire is about 2.5 times less than .01 wire .

The circumference of .005 wire is about 2.5 times less than .0126 wire ( 28 awg )

The circumference of secondary wire .002 wire is exactly 2 times less than .004 wire

The circumference of .0025 wire ( 42 awg ) is exactly 2 times less than the circumference of .005 wire ( 36 awg )



So in the end , I will be buying some 28 awg and some 42 awg  magnet wire .

Both will be made of heavy-build coating .


Analysing this video closely , I can say that the shape of the letters (and numbers ) from the primary look pretty much identical , same distance... everything.

So I am 99% sure that the dimentions have not been tampered with , so imo , if Stan himself  is standing in front of this , this is indeed viable information .

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2008, 05:15:58 am
I need some help figuring the inductance values  for the primary and secondary winding of the VicCoil

I've got the figures for the inductance of the chokes if 430FR is figured the same as copper

@ 11.6K ohms

36 AWG Choke x 2
Coil as designed with my bobbins
Inductance = 35 mH
Core Dia. = 16.54 mm
Wire Dia. = .152 mm
Core Lg. = 100.6
Turns = 3610
Coil depth = .8 mm
Wire Lg. = 196.58 meters


Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2008, 05:23:49 am
Impossible to calculate on paper ... you make it then calculate ... I dont know magnetic wire reacts here  as people rarely make coils with this ...

This is something you will have to measure after .

All values will change when its all stacked together , this is where the efficiency somes from .


Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2008, 07:36:19 am
Check these sites out.

http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/calcreac.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/XLC.htm
http://www.deephaven.co.uk/lc.html



Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2008, 21:27:33 pm
I'm concerned with the voltage amplitude.
Looking at JohnB's primary to seconday is based on a 3 times boost.
Should we not want to get a boost to 1kv or more at least in our VIC's.
Also what is the start volts, shouldn't it be based on 12v because its already available in the car battery with out all the added extras of inverters etc.
Checking back and forth I am noticing several different VICs...
Doc or memo chapter 7 Meyer states S/S430 and primary of 22awg with secondary of 35awg.
You are mentioning chap 10 I'll look into that.
Trying to get on the same page is tough sometimes.

Thank heavens for Dankie getting the exotic S/S wire as I'm sure this is key!

So as you can see I have some confusion.
I'm all into several different VIC's as they all end up doing the neccessary ends we need.
 
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2008, 22:20:33 pm
I also believe there will be a high step-up ratio... It would be required to test ...

Yes 12 volts .... that would make sense and respects the kiss mentality .

Listen to this video ... @ 7 minutes

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2008, 19:04:52 pm
Did you notice that in 6-1 the secondary is only connected on 1 side.

How does your core look like?
Meyer said it must have a closed loop magnetic induction path as in 3-23

I believe the coil segments in 6-1 are individual stacked coil bobbins electrically interconnected, the long single segment of the primary is winded in both directions.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2008, 20:24:00 pm
I believe what is said is more the likes of the following . 6-1 is made with an I core of electrical steel grain oriented , wich acts as a close loop when bobbins are wound like they are... No mention of closed loop core here ...

Plz see these posts...

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1223

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=870

This is where I am buying my core...

http://frysteel.com/

I also believe that the pulsing core 3-23 was Stans old all-in-1 with toroid design , I believe he used this design for the cell  with the buggy , It used a PLL .  I am 100% sure that the VIC coil 6-1 for the injector didnt use any PLL circuit , plz see this post I made on the subject .

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,709.0.html

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2008, 22:55:54 pm
An I-core is sufficient if the magnetic fields of both chokes cancel eachother out, but do they?
How are they wound and how is the current relationship?
Page 7-14 also talks about closed loop 53 of fig. 190.
 ???

I think you are right about the core, as said in the link you posted:
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=870
VIC Bifilar Wrap Coil-Assembly (10-3B) and VIC Dual Coil Wrap-Assembly (10-3A) both utilize either
"E"& ā€œIā€ and "U" Inductance Core configurations to concentrate Mutual Inductance Fields (Rp l/Rp2) in order
to optimize Amp Inhibiting Process. "E" ā€œIā€ core shape (10-3B) is most preferable since amp spike surge is
minimize during repetitive pulsing operations.

john, are you intended to create amp inhibiting coil 860 of 8-10 ?

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2008, 23:27:49 pm
It is impossible to know by Stan's words how exactly the chokes are wound , there is no connection here showing either ...

I have spoken of this many times already , but what I am interested in is building it right , I dont care what happens and how the end wires connect , I want to build it right then see for myself .

So we know we have chokes , 2 of them ... 56 and 62 but how exactly are they wound on the core ??

See this post to see the only 2 possibilities that make sense here , its either a  regular  bifilar wound where each section has both choke 56 and 62 wound bifilar . Or it is not wound bifilar at all and each choke is individually wound in sequential order  ... red/green/red/green


http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1171

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2009, 00:17:09 am
I think they are wound together, because secondary pickup coil is drawn the same way, which is not bifilar.
But, the attachment explains why the secoondary and bifilar are illustrated like they are in 6-1, to maximize inductance.
(but your link was pretty clear on this)

So you did notice 6-1 missed B-, lol now I realize.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2009, 00:37:49 am
Alan,

I am trying to wind the 620 coil in figure 7-1.  I think it is the figure 6-1 coil assy.  I dont know how to include the wiper yet.
I think I will start without it.

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2009, 00:48:13 am
Not sure, but maybe inductance decreases when the I-core is pulled out a bit.
It is a mystery to me how he used a wiperarm on his VIC.
Instead of a wiperarm, how about a HV variac parallel to the watercap to vary the resonance frequency?
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2009, 00:57:38 am
I think he just tapped the coil.
This would be like a wiper.
Doesn't it show tapping at 3 different points on the secondary somewhere.
This may change the bifilar inductance through the magnetism used for secondary inducted strength.
Or tapping at other winds of the coil.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2009, 06:15:07 am
The taps you can do later on after each section has been wound , you will be able to tap and know exactly how much % of the coil you have tapped , this is no biggy ... Just tap the wire connecting each section to the other ...

Impossible to include a wiper arm here forget it ...
Title: Re: If something were to happen to me
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 02, 2009, 00:50:27 am
...
Title: Re: If something were to happen to me
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 02, 2009, 00:59:20 am
If something were to happen to me , you guys will have to continue this project .

Lets hope I wont be punished for being such a loud-mouth .

I am currently writing a resume of what should be done with the VIC so my friends and family can continue this .

i will start on building a statue and a big monument for you here in The Quebec Provence . ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

stop your paranoia   >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: If something were to happen to me
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 02, 2009, 01:38:54 am
If something were to happen to me , you guys will have to continue this project .

Lets hope I wont be punished for being such a loud-mouth .

I am currently writing a resume of what should be done with the VIC so my friends and family can continue this .

i will start on building a statue and a big monument for you here in The Quebec Provence . ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

stop your paranoia   >:( >:( >:( >:(

Thx , I appreciate .

Plz make the VIC with the wire I will send you as heritage and give 1 million to my family .
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 02, 2009, 21:32:15 pm
sry 4 polluting
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2009, 20:13:05 pm
I would like to correct my error , Stan uses AWG 20 for the primary of VIC 6-1

He says .030 GA not 30 awg ... So its indeed .030 gauge ...

So there is indeed massive step-up voltage ...

Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2009, 20:56:14 pm
Maybe I see wrong. Or lets explain Gauge.
What I see is GA is the equivalent of American Wire Gauge or AWG.
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/wiregauge.html (http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/scales/wiregauge.html)
Stans not using Washburn British or Burmingham and were not using sheet metal gages.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Drawing Fig 6-1 bottom right Dual Pri coil, 30GA.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2009, 23:01:18 pm
RE: Water Fuel Injection System                                                                            Memo WFC 425
Page 6-37
Tri - Coil Construction
Resonant Choke Coils are composed of 430F or 430FR inductance stainless steel film coated wire (typically .004 Ga. Or smaller) which are axially Bifilar wound about core bobbin, forming individual spiral-wrap electrically connected in sequential order to form resistive pickup coil. 
Primary Coil (typically .030 Ga.) film coated magnet wire is longitudinal wrapped in space relationship on top of and layered bi-directional across spiral-wrap coils to complete bobbin cavity.
Secondary pickup coil is, also, composed of individual spiral wrapped coils (typically .002 Ga. magnet wire) electrically connected in sequential order to form bobbin cavity, which is placed on top of, and in space relationship to primary coil cavity

RE: VIC Matrix Circuit                                                                                   Memo WFC 426
Page 7-5
Inductor  and Inductor  is wound or coil-wrapped in such a manner as to increase the magnetic flux intensity of coil-wrap. The circular-spiral turns of wire is separated by an Insulated Dielectric Coating Material which forms a series of capacitors when magnetic flux-lines produces Electromagnetic Coupling Field during pulse on-time.  The series resistance value is determined by ~e composition of the wire material in terms of its ohmic value per given length and diameter cross-section: Resonant Charging Chokes 430F/FR 36 A WG (.006) stainless steel (s/s) wire

Page 7-6
equals 60 micro ohms per centimeter; Primary Coil 22 A WG (.028)  copper wire equals 5.1933 ohms per pound weight; Secondary Pickup Coil 35 A WG (.007) copper wire equals 13K ohms per pound weight. "Pyre-ML" trade name "Himol" polymer coating-material is used to impart thermal and mechanical resistance to the stainless steel (s/s) wire (614/615) coating; both magnet wire sizes uses solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical shield-material ... all dielectric coatings having an effective 3KV per mil dielectric value and formulated
specifically to endure automotive temperature range from _ 40 0 to 1550 C.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2009, 23:38:25 pm
That does show with the references above and all the different memo chapters if they were included.
There are several configurations to the VIC coil.
Depending on what part you are going to develope, from the Meyer memo's.
All the VIC's he made were specific to what part he developed, being it an injector or a tube or a pair of adjustable plates.
Everyone here will most likely wind a VIC and it will work best for a specific setup, may work on all setups to a certain extent.
I am curious what the findings will be after all is said and done.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2009, 02:48:35 am
That does show with the references above and all the different memo chapters if they were included.
There are several configurations to the VIC coil.
Depending on what part you are going to develope, from the Meyer memo's.
All the VIC's he made were specific to what part he developed, being it an injector or a tube or a pair of adjustable plates.
Everyone here will most likely wind a VIC and it will work best for a specific setup, may work on all setups to a certain extent.
I am curious what the findings will be after all is said and done.

I am also very curious to start uncovering the secrets and see how much of a big cell we can use
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2009, 04:46:49 am
This is my first post to this site.I will be sharing info on the VIC coil I saw when I visited Stans buggy this past month.First off it's a two piece bobbin assy.One inside the other.It's about 3 inches in dia. and 3 1/2 inches long.It uses a EI laminate steel core.The laminates are very thin,around .006" .The coil assy looks just like the drawing in the memo 425 figure 6-1.If you are looking at it from the side it would look like that picture.If viewed from the front,you would see the laminate core going all the way around the outside and the center leg passing through the center.The chokes are wound on the inside bobbin first in the machined grooves,first one groove than the next and so on.Then the primary is wound over top of the chokes going from left to right and back left untill the desired wraps are on.This bobbin then presses inside the outer bobbin and the secondary windinges go in the grooves just like the chokes.Fill one groove then move onto the next untill you have the needed wraps.I will have some pictures to share with everyone once my friend sends me the pictures he took,when we went.As you can see my picture to the side thats me with the buggy.
I'll tell more as we go along.
Don
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2009, 05:44:22 am
Bonjour Dyno  ;D

Welcome to this great site , great to see a new post lol , I hope you post those photos here before anywhere else   ;D  When can we expect to see these photos Don ?





Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2009, 17:53:47 pm
Hi Don and welcome here!

Thank you for sharing your knowledge on the VIC. Any pics of that component would be nice to see. It might help some of us here.

Can you confirm that the VIC you seen, was in combination with the injectors?

br
steve
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2009, 22:34:01 pm
The VIC coil I saw was just like the figure 6-1,and that coil is in the water fuel injector memo 425.But I believe that it is meant to replace all previous types.You would just wrap the primary and secondary to get the results you need for you type of cell.Remember,the cell should be kept small.Like a 3 inch set of tubes, 1/2 inside and 3/4 outside.It will not work on a multi tube cell like Stans demo cell.The capacitance would be way to high.Keep it small like Stan states.One 3 inch set of tubes was said to be able to process 5 gallons of water per hour.
Don
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2009, 23:11:06 pm
The VIC coil I saw was just like the figure 6-1,and that coil is in the water fuel injector memo 425.But I believe that it is meant to replace all previous types.You would just wrap the primary and secondary to get the results you need for you type of cell.Remember,the cell should be kept small.Like a 3 inch set of tubes, 1/2 inside and 3/4 outside.It will not work on a multi tube cell like Stans demo cell.The capacitance would be way to high.Keep it small like Stan states.One 3 inch set of tubes was said to be able to process 5 gallons of water per hour.
Don

Interresting Dyno ... very interresting







Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 01:14:30 am
the cell was not, and can not go in the vic coil.They are two seperate parts.And yes you will have to use stainless wire like dankies to wind it with.because you won't be able to wind enough copper wire on the coil,it's not big enough to hold that much wire.It would take 10 times the copper wire to get 11,6k ohms resistance per choke.The coil is wrapped with paper and you can't see the wires.But I do know you won't get enough copper wire on this bobbin.
Don
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 03:08:28 am
gr8 work don
its nice to hear from u and hope u post the photos of the VIC and the gp if  possible ,
was the gp opened just to know the colors of the LEDs,
i think it lays a vital role in the setup
rgds paul
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 05:15:15 am
...Remember,the cell should be kept small.Like a 3 inch set of tubes, 1/2 inside and 3/4 outside.It will not work on a multi tube cell like Stans demo cell.The capacitance would be way to high.Keep it small like Stan states.One 3 inch set of tubes was said to be able to process 5 gallons of water per hour.
Don

Welcome Don.

It's nice to hear from a first hand observer!

My question concerns your statements concerning the cell. Are the tubes loose or tight fit in the cell? Is the inner tube a little longer than the outer tube?

I always appreciated my understanding of how Stan continued to miniturize the mechanics of his process while maximizing the output.

Flag  8)
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 16:32:50 pm
If the gp stands for gas processor,I take it you meen the air gas processor.That unit wasn't open to see the leds.As for the tubes in the cell,there are pictures of his cell,but I didn't see that type of cell when I visited Stans buggy.It was set up with the injectors and not a gas type cell.The picture I'm talking about shows the tubes mounted in a base with a plug in the top of the tubes to hold them apart.In the same picture,it shows a bunch of leds and some colored lenses.There are also another picyure that shows three units mounted on top of each other,plus the hydrogen gas gun.Those are the cells.
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 17:17:58 pm
Here are three more pictures that the owner sent me at the start of this.Some of you might have seen them already.One is the box Stan made to house the VIC coil,and one is the gas gun,and the last is the buggy.
Enjoy Don
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2009, 18:44:56 pm
Well we already saw those pics but its still nice to see them ... Wish we could see the real thing ...

Its clear that the ``multi-coil-spool-assembly`` is just that , a multi coil spool assembly ...



Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2011, 23:11:04 pm
VIC BOBBIN CORES MADE TO EXACT SPECIFICATION (http://mb.hydraclone.com/)
--------------------------------------------------
These are made entirely of Derlin material.  Dimensions are to the tolerances specifed by the inventors authentic CAD drawings discovered at the site of the inventors test car - the famous water powered dune buggy.  Discount pricing available on request.  See photos and make purchase (http://mb.hydraclone.com/).


 
Title: Re: Winding the VicCoil
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 14, 2013, 00:53:17 am
This is my first post to this site.I will be sharing info on the VIC coil I saw when I visited Stans buggy this past month.First off it's a two piece bobbin assy.One inside the other.It's about 3 inches in dia. and 3 1/2 inches long.It uses a EI laminate steel core.The laminates are very thin,around .006" .The coil assy looks just like the drawing in the memo 425 figure 6-1.If you are looking at it from the side it would look like that picture.If viewed from the front,you would see the laminate core going all the way around the outside and the center leg passing through the center.The chokes are wound on the inside bobbin first in the machined grooves,first one groove than the next and so on.Then the primary is wound over top of the chokes going from left to right and back left untill the desired wraps are on.This bobbin then presses inside the outer bobbin and the secondary windinges go in the grooves just like the chokes.Fill one groove then move onto the next untill you have the needed wraps.I will have some pictures to share with everyone once my friend sends me the pictures he took,when we went.As you can see my picture to the side thats me with the buggy.
I'll tell more as we go along.
Don
Hy Don, did you saw the chokes and prymary windings?what style?awg?Thanks!