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Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on February 28, 2016, 18:39:28 pm

Title: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 28, 2016, 18:39:28 pm
I was thinking about and i decided to polish the interior of my tubes... it ends up really well

i used 600 water sandpaper

than 1200 to finish

it would be amazing if we just were missing this isnt it?

shining like a mirror
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 28, 2016, 19:17:59 pm
i guess if we have light photons somehow is good that they can be reflected i´m also planing to have a laser being pulsed to the cell to see what can it do to electronic polarization while the molecules are alligned..
Title: electropolishing and Passivation
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2016, 08:43:56 am
I found some electropolishing companies here i will call them too see how much it would cost to process few tubes in few diferent ways so i can test with the new cell...

basically as i sanded my tubes i could clearly see some spots and this spots and it seems to me that actually stainless steel is not working well if not correctly treated after machining etc...

basically its required a uniform barrier of chromium oxide or some fluoride to make it realy corrosion resistant or electrolysis resistant ...

Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2016, 15:43:39 pm
I have fifteen 3 inch cells lined up in series and can tell you that the ones I made last year and the year before have five times the gas production as ones I made last night and last week.

I run them 24/7 at a variety of voltages and such and have tried numerous doping and coating ideas.  The tubes will not stay nice like mirrors for long.  They will develop a coating over time anyway you do it.  The older and thicker scaled up ones do best.  This is an ongoing experiment.

just my observations

kickbackemf
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2016, 23:19:15 pm
Hey kickback thanks a lot for sharing your experience on that... let me ask you have you tried passivation? like puting the electrodes in very concentrated nitric acid for 1 hour maybe?

this is said to be part of the passivation cycle...

i found a source of infrmation on finishing of stainless stell according to the application but is in portughese..

http://www.nucleoinox.org.br/upfiles/arquivos/downloads/Manual_acabamento_a%E7o%20inox.pdf

here it descrbes the procedure to transform hexavalent ions that are byproducts of electrolysis to safe product neutralized.

it tells alot about all the types of corrosion and how to prevent.. .

i´m not sure if we are going to punture the passivation when its done correctly... i mean with voltages.. if the water is pure enough it should not be corrosive at all...

stainless steel is pretty much like a many metal composition when its not protected by the oxide layer the metals come out of it and it is as good as iron... exagerating from what i read if you allow the corrosion to go it can go all the way thru the plate creating holes..

also found that polished surfaces will have smaller area than unpolished. so less chemical interaction on the surface could be expected..

thats maybe why you get now more gas since the area of the electrodes increase with corrosion.. than when they were new..

i was thinking also about the polished electrodes because if i wantd to insert a pulsed laser i would make it go tangetial to the rod such it would need to round the cell tousands of times before exiting the cavity depending on the angle of incidence and absorption...











Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2016, 00:25:45 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cementing
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2016, 16:06:05 pm
My thoughts are that any surface treatment will fail over time and a coating will appear from normal low amp hv use.  I tried passivation and used mirror like surfaced plates yet they still coated up.  This was done with RO water and all the other waters I used.  I don't remember if the passivator guy used nitric acid.  He had a batch going in and my small 3" tube sets fit in the passivation bath and went through the process with other parts.



Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2016, 12:01:00 pm
i fouond this kick back give it a check...http://www.ableelectropolishing.com/resources/passivation-vs-electropolishing/

Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2016, 16:25:48 pm
I have had tube sets electropolished professionally, done it myself and found that the tubes till scale up.  I thinking the scale and corrosion layer is a good thing.  I leaning toward the semiconductor properties of the coating.
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2016, 18:33:47 pm
Stan never showed any layer on his working models did he?,I would guess with the correct waveform would etch or remove that layer.
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2016, 22:23:45 pm
now that's a stretch...   all the stuff he built was prototype, just consider the five coil transformer, how long do you think that would last at operating parameters?  his tubes scaled up just as any others would is my opinion only

I had a hard time getting past he lord stuff yet wanted to learn electricity and that's how I started

I also believe that no coils is the way to go, I run only a line of small tubes straight off the MOT.  no ringing, no below the line signals, nice clean positive pulses, etc at 800 volts and 20 milliamps

kb
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 01:04:53 am
How are you getting any resonance that way?
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 01:29:26 am
May i ask how you done it KB what chemicals you used? how you proceed with temperature and voltage applied to the cell and amps density?

did it came like a mirror?

i dont know exactly what stan showed.. i saw some things he left but i trully dont know if this layer will even be visible...

i´m constructing a new cell so i decided to try it...


i will use a tube to electropolish all the rods one at a time and a rod to electropolish the tubes interior one at a time too.

Title: 10000 years
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 09:05:29 am
http://www.parrinst.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2011/07/Parr_Stainless-Steels-Corrosion-Info.pdf
Title: this article talks for itself..
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 09:05:54 am
http://scilit.uoregon.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Electrolysis_Lab_Context.pdf

10000 years
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 18:34:45 pm
sorry bub, it just wont' do it for me, the metal will develop a coating

the resonance is not electrical but physical, move the water back and forth, I use 200-500 cps with 60-100 gated cps.  The voltage is 600-800 volts out of the MOT with 20-30 volts in.

titanium anodes may help you, they are very resistant and form a diode in the surface coating....  also they  keep the water crystal clear...
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 22:05:38 pm
today i worked into the polishing by sand paper trying to find the best methode to do it.. .

i found that is better to start rounding the ends of the tubes inwards and outwards.. take out any sharp points...

later is good to do one time on the outside of the tube a first polishing to understand how is to polish inside..

outside of the tubes however the surface has some defect from the manufacture process Trefilating the tubes to bring them to right diameter is accomplished by having a initially larger diameter tube than  roling it with some hard and heavy rollers so its possible to get a small diameter seamless tube...

so outside of the tube the surface is plenty of defects to take it out i did the following
)
first sand the tube in the vertical lenght direction perpendicular to the defects ( risks.). / than tangencial follwoing the circunference of the tube..

i fixed my tube to a piece of wood rod half cut in half where i can fix it over some sandpaper and attach it to my driller so i can mak the tube turns and i can polish in the outer circunference with easy when the tube is stuck,,and polish the internal if is allowed to slip

i used 80 than 150 for iron sandpapers than 360 and 600 water sandpapers aways doing in bothe directions..stop in one direction and turning in the other of course;;; this makes it easier..

after it i used a piece of cloth and polishing mass number 2 for cars.. and also did in both directions..

you will see that this last step is decisive in geting mirror like surface...

once outside is mirror the inside will be easier.. .

i used 600 sandpaper inside, than polishing mass and cloth on turning...than inserting the turning thing into the tube to polish inside..







Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 22:13:01 pm
Theoreticaly i believe the more the surface is flat the higher will be the voltage we are able to apply across the water capacitor since it will be harder for a single point to oxidize... or liberate an ion..

when one point in stailess steel oxidize it become an anode and will develop a current in reference to the rest of the piece that acts as a cathode so it never stop increasing the corrosion the oxided point...

is the same as having two dissimilar metals you get a battery effect...so it corrode untill there is chemicals to react.;;;

My electrodes are now very flat it apear to me that is the way to go for it...

the conditioniong may be than to use some kind of nitric acid and or citric acid solution intercallating with a chloride solution to take the oxides layer and allow electropolish to make an even surface..

if we apply some kind of polishing wax some kind of films can be formed too but this would not be stable i guess and so actually would be better to have only a passivated surface



Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2016, 23:29:51 pm

you can put some dish wash liquid in water , it helps clean the sand paper
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2016, 00:51:54 am
yes massive i forgot to mention the cleaning at each step and that the electrodes should not get hot i keep a bootle of water diping to maintain it cold..

if it heats up other metals arrise in the surface ....

is a very slow process
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 12, 2016, 23:55:12 pm
the electrodes gap now seems much bigger although the actuall size didnt change more than 0.1mm

as the borders of the tubes and rods are round its possible to see it beter inside the gap...

today i further polished the tubes now i tried again with car polishing and wax for polishing..

i´m certain that is not the best aproach but it the only thing i could find about it yet..

i´m feeling to do the right thing but feel like its the wrong process or materials.. .otherwise i believe it should be done already... monday i will get some time probably will take to somewhere give a professional polishing,,,better than my eyes can do...
 
from what i see it does not mather how much i go after all i never get the mirror like evenly inside the tube...

PS stanley meyer tubes seem to have absolutely no corrosion spots.. seems perfectly passivated...
Title: thermic treatment
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2016, 14:41:42 pm
how about thermic treatment?

temper? anybody tried ?

from wiki Quenching[edit]
Main article: Quenching
Quenching is a process of cooling a metal at a rapid rate. This is most often done to produce a martensite transformation. In ferrous alloys, this will often produce a harder metal, while non-ferrous alloys will usually become softer than normal.

To harden by quenching, a metal (usually steel or cast iron) must be heated above the upper critical temperature and then quickly cooled. Depending on the alloy and other considerations (such as concern for maximum hardness vs. cracking and distortion), cooling may be done with forced air or other gases, (such as nitrogen). Liquids may be used, due to their better thermal conductivity, such as oil, water, a polymer dissolved in water, or a brine. Upon being rapidly cooled, a portion of austenite (dependent on alloy composition) will transform to martensite, a hard, brittle crystalline structure. The quenched hardness of a metal depends on its chemical composition and quenching method. Cooling speeds, from fastest to slowest, go from fresh water, brine, polymer (i.e. mixtures of water + glycol polymers), oil, and forced air. However, quenching a certain steel too fast can result in cracking, which is why high-tensile steels such as AISI 4140 should be quenched in oil, tool steels such as ISO 1.2767 or H13 hot work tool steel should be quenched in forced air, and low alloy or medium-tensile steels such as XK1320 or AISI 1040 should be quenched in brine.

However, most non-ferrous metals, like alloys of copper, aluminum, or nickel, and some high alloy steels such as austenitic stainless steel (304, 316), produce an opposite effect when these are quenched: they soften. Austenitic stainless steels must be quenched to become fully corrosion resistant, as they work-harden significantly.[18]

Tempering[edit]
Main article: Tempering (metallurgy)
Untempered martensitic steel, while very hard, is too brittle to be useful for most applications. A method for alleviating this problem is called tempering. Most applications require that quenched parts be tempered. Tempering consists of heating steel below the lower critical temperature, (often from 400 to 1105 ˚F or 205 to 595 ˚C, depending on the desired results), to impart some toughness. Higher tempering temperatures (may be up to 1,300 ˚F or 700 ˚C, depending on the alloy and application) are sometimes used to impart further ductility, although some yield strength is lost.

Tempering may also be performed on normalized steels. Other methods of tempering consist of quenching to a specific temperature, which is above the martensite start temperature, and then holding it there until pure bainite can form or internal stresses can be relieved. These include austempering and martempering.[18]
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 22, 2016, 02:29:06 am
I think maybe passivation is the only way with stailess steel

dany danfor said that 304 would not work and it had to be 410 or 430 if i remember well

this ferritic steel can receive heat treatment and quenching to harden

the 304 needs to be cold worked apparently trefilating may be an option..

it seem to me that 304 is very soft on the rod but very hard on the tubes because probably the tubes are cold trefilated or something to get this sizes...

i mean that is easy to get it damaged like if it was very soft metal...

my electrodes were pited from my 11 cell cavity today i took the out to look

this week i willbe cleaning it again and polishing but this time i will get it passivated very well before try
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 22, 2016, 13:56:41 pm
Not sure if Dan Danford said this, to be honest...

I worked with magnetic ss 430 in my magnetic cell...
Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 27, 2016, 12:52:07 pm
here the images

the tubes that have a white like look were polished like this before geting into the cell last year but ended up with lot of pitting and covered with this white like but actually is very tyni corrosion point in ss

part of the dirty come from the spring that is inside the electrical connector to the tubes and rods...
 
the spring  aparently not a good stainless steel... the manufactor said it was 310 ss but it rusts a lot ...

maybe some hardening of the stainless steel would be desired if we could some how achieve it



Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 27, 2016, 16:08:28 pm
i did a citric acid solution with 500g of water and 50g of cirtric acid anidrous..

at the start it made like 5 minibubbes on the polished surface..

i degreased with acetone...

Title: Re: Polished electrodes...
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 27, 2016, 22:54:13 pm
i decided to leave more time the electrode on the citric acid since it seem is not doing anything to it...

i will probably find some nitric and do the process with it after...

i will place the electrodes on hydrogen peroxide to try oxidize a litle deeper.. probably i will add some to the citric acid to see what happens...

i read that citric acid alone is not as good as nitric acid for this process since nitric is also an oxidizer
so you must provide some oxigen to create the passivation layer..

the electrodes didnt changed apearance there was a piece inside the rods with scaling and it didnt came out either...

the spring was also diped into the solution and left... after some time the red rust became dark and it bubbles a lot.. i took it out and used some car polishing paste and a piece of fabric and cleaned it it became very shiny.. than i degrease and dip again into the citric acid and it again bubble and become brown ... this grade of ss is not good sorry steve i guess we must change it for 304 maybe.

i will try to leave it on the citric acid for a while and see if maybe the iron comes out of it otherwise i´m thinking about plating something over it to stop the corrosion... maybe nickel or chrome nicklel... dont know ... maybe palladium...

however the faster way will be to find here someoneelse than can make them for me with 304..


the screws where the springs go in didnt rust at all.. .this may be very well passivated or electropolished or something...