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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: massive on August 19, 2015, 00:09:55 am

Title: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2015, 00:09:55 am
Hi
Ive seen chemical reaction explained with sodium hydroxide where sodium molecule rips H+ from water molecule leaving OH- etc

but what is happening at the + and - plates when there is no electrolyte only water ?

Yull Brown and George Wiseman get monatomic and diatomic gases so theres another reaction there also ... BUT they use electrolyte

If Stan Meyer  was generating gas , was it monatomic or diatomic or both and what was the reaction at the plates ?
If electrons were stripped from the water molecule, then thats high current flow into a conductor , theres only 2 plates .

H2O <> H + OH ?    ..... or  H2 + 2OH ?

there has to be exchange some where , the water molecule has to have a reason to let go a part of itself

1. Input = water
2. process = ANY invention utilised , either electrolysis or NON electrolysis ,HV ,LV , hf , Lf , AC , DC ,chem reaction ....etc
3. out put = gas , either monatomic or diatomic

in order to get from 1 to 3 there is a process .   voltage , current and frequency dont explain it , there has to be a reason for water to turn to a gas , it has to give up its bond as a reaction to an action . If an electron is released then thats current flow

self iniozation is similar example to what Im asking , except theres TWO conductive plates in a cell .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water



Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2015, 19:54:47 pm
Meyer had different theories at various times.  In one patent he said electrons revert to the H and all product gasses remain neutral.  Another time he said electrons migrate to the positive electrode.  If this is the true case, that's why there's a pause between the voltage pulses.  During this pause, electrons go to the plate and neutralize it's charge.  This happens faster than the potential build up from each single pulse.  This does not produce a current in the external circuit.

It's hard to know what the product gasses actually are, without spectroscopic analysis.  For all we know, CO2 may be playing a role, possibly even forming a synthetic compound together with the H.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2015, 23:05:45 pm

even if there was no extracted current , the capacitor/cell has one pos+ plate and 1 neg - plate with excess electrons, so the coulomb charge of x amount of free ectrons from the water would have to equal 1/2 in order to equalize the plates when pulse is off.
but then the neg- plate would have to dump 1/2 its electrons into the water
but then equalization by itself is discharge/short

if it were a case of electrons in exchange for H and O atoms it would be avogardo numbers and be monatomic

I just looked up...
 "dissociation is a process by which a molecule separates into ions ,it may also be called ionization"
"the ability to conduct electricity is based on the ionic make up of a substance"
"the more ions a substance contains the better it will conduct"

at the moment Im looking into sodium hydroxide chem reaction and gonna REMOVE the sodium from equation and consider hydronium in the self ionization theory
they say there is small x amount of deuterium naturally in water , maybe parts of water can be catalyst idk lol
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2015, 00:49:50 am
Meyer vic is meant to restrict the current to keep it straight physical reaction.. the exchange happens all inside the resonant cavity... nothing get ionized.. in my view the molecules simply stop to attract each other when very charged... so hydrogen electrons jump out of oxygen orbit.. you see? no ionization at all... for the electrical polarization process... there are no missing or extra electrons...  yet... you only get that point with the resonant compounding action when the out coming gas is striped of electrons which by collision upon other molecules there split them by collision (maybe is not the right name i can't remember now the correct terminology) something like electron detachment ... ) substituting one electron of the molecule ejecting one hydrogen atom and leaving the molecule (charged) unstable so the next rising electric fields cycle got to break it.. with the electron extraction circuit than you get a net charge so molecules come out with electrical charge...like wise a current flowing in a wire the gas flowing in a tube would generate a magnetic field... since is net charged.. 


i learned all this in an optative course in the university at the center for nuclear research course called chemistry of radiations...


you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble...

sodium hydroxide is not able to electro plate to the electrode so it ionize another molecule and stay in the reaction..

the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2015, 02:03:41 am
Natural water - not distilled or de ionized - contains a variety of ions.  There's even some amount of H2O2, or peroxide ions.  However, these ions don't have a 'vapor pressure' in the sence that removing them causes more to appear, maintaining some kind of balance.  The pressence of these ions is statistical; a certain amount of ions will be present after a certain, long enough, period of time.  Formation of spontaneous ions is not the key to Meyer's system.  He claimed that incrementally moving the electrons away from the valance band regions requires less energy than a normal process.  And I tend to agree with him.  This is the basis of his system's heightened efficiency, at the water spliting stage.  I read about one test using pulses at 1.1 MHz which resulted in 96 percent less energy requirement.

"you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble... " "the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?"

Stan said that the water molecules act as "micro capacitors" in the circuit.  As the surrounding plates are charged, this places a charge on the micro capacitors.  This is a non electron charge, which is related to pure potential.  Pure potential is produced by radiant energy coming from a pulsating static charge.  Or by a complex field which equates to static energy.  A positive potential is an absence of electrons.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2015, 14:18:35 pm
Natural water - not distilled or de ionized - contains a variety of ions.  There's even some amount of H2O2, or peroxide ions.  However, these ions don't have a 'vapor pressure' in the sence that removing them causes more to appear, maintaining some kind of balance.  The pressence of these ions is statistical; a certain amount of ions will be present after a certain, long enough, period of time.  Formation of spontaneous ions is not the key to Meyer's system.  He claimed that incrementally moving the electrons away from the valance band regions requires less energy than a normal process.  And I tend to agree with him.  This is the basis of his system's heightened efficiency, at the water spliting stage.  I read about one test using pulses at 1.1 MHz which resulted in 96 percent less energy requirement.

"you have than monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen that subsequently forms diatomic molecules liberating heat and coming out as a bubble... " "the point is how to charge the water molecules? till the point where this happens?"

Stan said that the water molecules act as "micro capacitors" in the circuit.  As the surrounding plates are charged, this places a charge on the micro capacitors.  This is a non electron charge, which is related to pure potential.  Pure potential is produced by radiant energy coming from a pulsating static charge.  Or by a complex field which equates to static energy.  A positive potential is an absence of electrons.

Meyer actually talks about using voltage as potential energy allowing efficiency at least over 10000% from the magnitude of his claims... this mean not a more efficient process, this mean 180 degree from that...its straight energy amplification... or if you will extraction from the voltage potential...

i don't want to confuse you.. sorry..

i believe this is achieve thru a process of applying voltage fields to the water.. restricting the current to the milliampere range..

this way according to stan water molecules gets a charged and subsequently in the process the covalent attraction force is switched off...

he asks how much energy does it take to turn off a switch?

how much energy is it required for an electron to just jump a band gap?



   
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2015, 17:39:31 pm
The beauty of Meyer's system is that it takes very little energy to turn off the switch.

Covanent bonds are maintained through an exchange of virtual photons, as shown by the Nobel Prize winning Feynman diagram.  Shielding the covalent bond requires a higher order energy than is involved with maintaining the bond.  A photon has two components, so the shielding field must have at least four components.  Whittaker's equations show that a static potential can be decomposed, mathematically, into two bidirectional waves, at least one of which contains a harmonic.  Static is a higher order energy than a normal photon.

Once a molecule is elongated enough to allow a static potential to penetrate the molecule, the presence of that higher order energy, in the form of static potential, will instantly switch off the bond.  No ionization is required for this to happen, and any ionization which does occur will be coincidental.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2015, 23:02:56 pm

besides any process water goes through , water still has the natural property to self ionize itself

2 H20 <> OH-  +  H3O+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water

so either an applied process over rides this natural property OR
self ionization is an integral part of the applied process OR
the process is the natural property Amplified

working with nature instead of against ,  just a thought
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2015, 03:53:52 am

besides any process water goes through , water still has the natural property to self ionize itself

2 H20 <> OH-  +  H3O+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water

so either an applied process over rides this natural property OR
self ionization is an integral part of the applied process OR
the process is the natural property Amplified

working with nature instead of against ,  just a thought

I think you are right as that is why Meyer's technology doesn't take up large amounts of current to break the bonds of the water molecules as it is doing something the water molecules have a tendency to do all by themselves. Ionization is the key we just had to start asking the right questions.

(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/2015-07-27_182645_zpshlpc68n3.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/2015-07-27_182645_zpshlpc68n3.png.html)

Here we can see that a very localized field can break the bonds of the Hydroxide ion as it is a single bond and fairly weak. The VIC transformer places a very localized field on the water molecules that are in between the voltages zones. Now if we take this a step further as I have shown in this drawing:
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/TheElectricalPolarizationProcess-1.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/TheElectricalPolarizationProcess-1.png.html)
We can see that the exciter array is pulling the water molecules apart in very much the same way as when the water molecules do randomly all by themselves so I think it's safe to say the process is in fact dealing with IONIZATION as it all makes a lot of sense when looking at the properties of water and comparing it to Meyer's technology.

Shalom,
TGS

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2015, 17:00:16 pm
Hello, why in your analysis the point of great potential diference is in the middle of the electrodes?

in your theory the gas is generated right in middle of the cell TGS?

in my point of view correct me please if i'm wrong... the cell has the greater intensity field right over the surface of the inner electrode.. and it decays over distance because of screening of charge and polarization effects...

so how can be the center of the cell the point with greater potential difference?

according to physics parallel plates have linear electric field strength distribution while concentric case has stronger near the smaller electrode...

thanks


ps... in attachment my "differential" wave forms ... across cell... pulse in.... Va ... Vb...

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2015, 18:21:00 pm
Hello, why in your analysis the point of great potential diference is in the middle of the electrodes?

in your theory the gas is generated right in middle of the cell TGS?

in my point of view correct me please if i'm wrong... the cell has the greater intensity field right over the surface of the inner electrode.. and it decays over distance because of screening of charge and polarization effects...

so how can be the center of the cell the point with greater potential difference?

according to physics parallel plates have linear electric field strength distribution while concentric case has stronger near the smaller electrode...

thanks


ps... in attachment my "differential" wave forms ... across cell... pulse in.... Va ... Vb...

It's because water is being used as a dielectric material. Many working on this technology have noticed that there is gas being generated right in the center of the high voltage potential zones. When you add these experimental observations to Meyer's words telling us each water molecules acts like a tiny capacitor then right in the center of the cell will be the greatest plain of potential difference as each little water molecule capacitor will carry the voltage over to the next water molecule as remember they are all in a straight line between the electrodes.

The drawing is based on my observations of the many experiments I have performed and helped me reason out just how the process was taking place between the cells on a molecular level with IONIZATION in mind as after all water, no mater how pure, will do this all on it's own naturally. The drawing is only an illustration designed to further my knowledge on the inner workings of this technology and could be incorrect.

Other things to note is this assumes the B+ and B- voltages are equal for if they are not equal then that center will move to the side with the greatest voltage. This is why when people only have a positive voltage shown on the scope the water will heat up as they will be pushing amps through the water bath for the magnetic current quenching effect of the opposed chokes wont be balanced.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2015, 14:06:42 pm
its nice to see how you look at it. Like i told you, i see it in a different way... but that should not stop you..

do you know that the ions are equally distributed thru the volume? 

another question? is that point in the middle of your "cell" the zero volts? i mean you are considering to be applying B+ and B- at same time?

keep going
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2015, 19:17:27 pm
The water molecules can be charged both ways so don't think of it as a zero voltage but one side carrying the positive charge and the other side carrying the negative charge and they meet in the middle.

In learning how to read the scope shoots you must look at the near vertical lines as those are the times when the positive and negative voltages are taking place at near the same time.
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/personalpics009_zpscf31888c.jpg) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/personalpics009_zpscf31888c.jpg.html)
These times are taking place very fast much faster than the relaxation time for water. This is the proper way to read these scope shoots as the times are not equal but near equal and the water molecules are at those times subject to the maximum potential difference that the VIC transformers are making. The frequency for this scope shot is around 5k Hz and that's 5000 times per second. The reading on the oscilloscope give the viewer a false impression of time sort of like riding in a car at high speeds with the windows rolled up. As long as you keep you hands inside of the car you really have no sense of just how fast you are moving but as soon as you put your hand outside then you can feel the speeds you are traveling at.

It is at these near vertical lines where the potential voltages is to be measured at as due to the blocking diode the positive goes to the B+ plate and the negative goes to the B- plate and as you can see the times are almost the same. Remember the blocking diode is acting as a switch so even though it looks like an A/C wave form it is not as the blocking diode will not allow it to be an A/C waveform. So, as you can see it's not good enough to have the ability to see the wave forms produced by the VIC transformers being placed on the exciter array but one must also know and/or understand how to interpret the data they are seeing. This is where I am forced to ignore a lot of people as they simply don't have the necessary education to be able to to solve a technology such as this. If they don't do things the right way they are of little use to me and to this technology as far as figuring it out goes. Following the scientific method is a must for this technology as it has a lot of original ideas in it thus one can't look up a lot of things in any of our books of antiquity. So far I have found three original ideas and created a fourth one on my own. Ideas like these make it very hard for anyone to back engineer this technology as these are totally new ideas and the only way to figure them out is with the use of the scientific method as it forces people to run many experiments.

So, in answering your question the water molecules take the voltage from the plates to the center if the voltages of the B+ and B- voltage fields are equal as water can be charged both ways.

I hope this allows you to understand the need to get the right equipment to do the job as if you don't you are truly flying in the blind on this technology and I am forced to not accept any of your work as it doesn't follow the guidelines the scientific method sets for us all to follow. If anyone refuses to follow the scientific method then I must refuse to accept their work as that is just the way things have to be. I don't make many assumptions as I rely on experimental data and observations to make choices as that is the way the scientific method allows me to move forwards with this technology. I hope this lets everyone understand how I work and why I seem to be so strict all the time.

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2015, 22:35:59 pm
The thing Mr. Ed is forgetting - and will continue to ignore (unscientifically) - is that there is no such thing as 'negative potential'.  All potential is positive.  Negative values are based on the convenience of assigning the earth's surface potential as 'zero'.  With positive hv potential on one electrode, and much less positive potential on the other, the strongest potential field will still be at the surface of the stronger electrode.

If he's talking about charge, in the sense that presence of electrons makes a negative charge while absence of electrons makes a positive charge, then his 'dual charged mini capacitor' theory violates Stan Meyer's stipulation of minimal current.  Without current, one side of a capacitor can't develop a negative electron charge.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2015, 23:48:47 pm
The thing Mr. Ed is forgetting - and will continue to ignore (unscientifically) - is that there is no such thing as 'negative potential'.  All potential is positive.  Negative values are based on the convenience of assigning the earth's surface potential as 'zero'.  With positive hv potential on one electrode, and much less positive potential on the other, the strongest potential field will still be at the surface of the stronger electrode.

If he's talking about charge, in the sense that presence of electrons makes a negative charge while absence of electrons makes a positive charge, then his 'dual charged mini capacitor' theory violates Stan Meyer's stipulation of minimal current.  Without current, one side of a capacitor can't develop a negative electron charge.

Yup. I agree here with yr explanation.
Its called a potential difference, is it.
One pole with more or less electrons then the other.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 00:58:20 am
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/10_5VOLTAGECHARINGEFFECT.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/10_5VOLTAGECHARINGEFFECT.png.html)

As said in Meyer's work a "difference of potential across the water gap." I really don't think I need to explain myself any further do I? as Meyer puts it in writing for us right here. The actual waveform looks a little different but I just explained to everyone how to interpret their data when looking at these wave forms. With that being said let us look at this waveform again and notice that at first there is a potential difference that is negative and positive but as time goes on the negative voltage actually turns into positive voltage which is just a difference of positive voltage, correct?

(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/Maxswaveform_zps9f62fd25.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/Maxswaveform_zps9f62fd25.png.html)

Now that you all know how to go about reading and interpreting the experimental data you can see that this waveform shows a failure to get the maximum potential difference as the negative side isn't charging up. Meyer has it clearly marked showing a B+ and B- voltage and in this screen shot the negative voltage potential doesn't start to build up. After comparing what the two of us did differently the load that Max placed on the VIC transformer is a lot greater than the load I placed on the VIC transformer and the result of doing so was a loss in the negative voltage potential or B- voltage.

Now thanks to Massive we should all be able to see that Meyer's work is that of Ionization as that is a property of the water molecules have and this technology makes it so it is not such a random event as the conditions are made favorable by placing water molecules in a high voltage potential difference field.

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 02:22:52 am
Yup. I agree here with yr explanation.
Its called a potential difference, is it.
One pole with more or less electrons then the other.

Potential takes the form of an rf field.  The field causes electrons and other charged particles to move.  The potential field itself doesn't have any electrons.  It's just a signal.  A difference of electrons built up on the two plates is the static charge.  Meyer shows two forces, the static charges and the pulsating potential - even when one plate is grounded.

When referring to mini caps being charged, he certainly wasn't talking about adding electrons to the Oxygen.  That would be only electrolysis.  The charge is the potential that the valence electrons have to fall back to lower levels.  There is no change in the number of electrons his water molecule has.  So this charging isn't static.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 09:37:01 am
since starting thread I have been looking for forumals ... ... havent been kicking back waiting for answer to fall in my lap
I tried to find dissociation of hydronium .    hydroxide = easy!


http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Acids_and_Bases/Aqueous_Solutions/The_Hydronium_Ion

this site mentions hydronium increase = pH decrease

"Because hydronium- and hydroxide ions can “move without actually moving” and thus without having to plow their way through the solution by shoving aside water molecules as do other ions, solutions which are acidic or alkaline have extraordinarily high electrical conductivities."

kindve rings a bell about radio wave of the Kanzius guy

is it possible SM was dicing with pH from acid to base , electrically and using pH 7 as a non conductive point or zero point
Im talking high freq not slow chemistry level
also what do I know Im just throwing this in there

the article also mentions "holes and electrons" , no different than semi conductor talk

with hydronium I cant see what it would break down to , 11 proton , 10 electron ,therefore + ion , its heading for neg plate ..... :-\
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 10:48:04 am
i would not like to put fire on the wood but actually meyer waveform is meaningless is simply a doubled frequency increasing in potential... there is 1 million manners of replicating this exact waveform and you still not apply the correct fields on water to make the molecule split apart...

when you show me your waveform you give me nothing... summing with your drawing where coil start and polarity confuse whoever try to look at it... Wasn't you that complained about my pencil made drawings? where is your dot convention? do you understand how you draw it?

its really sad to see so much confusion...

massive do you agree that for every atom species you want to ionize in that way you need to put one electron or take it out of water?

 
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 11:12:51 am
since starting thread I have been looking for forumals ... ... havent been kicking back waiting for answer to fall in my lap
I tried to find dissociation of hydronium .    hydroxide = easy!


http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Acids_and_Bases/Aqueous_Solutions/The_Hydronium_Ion

this site mentions hydronium increase = pH decrease

"Because hydronium- and hydroxide ions can “move without actually moving” and thus without having to plow their way through the solution by shoving aside water molecules as do other ions, solutions which are acidic or alkaline have extraordinarily high electrical conductivities."

kindve rings a bell about radio wave of the Kanzius guy

is it possible SM was dicing with pH from acid to base , electrically and using pH 7 as a non conductive point or zero point
Im talking high freq not slow chemistry level
also what do I know Im just throwing this in there

the article also mentions "holes and electrons" , no different than semi conductor talk

with hydronium I cant see what it would break down to , 11 proton , 10 electron ,therefore + ion , its heading for neg plate ..... :-\

I'm with you on that as I don't think the hydronium ions will be broken down either as they are held together too strongly. Plus we already saw that in nature the hydroxide ion does in fact get broken down with lightening so I think us working together on this right now have our answer. The breakdown of the hydroxide ions is what produces the gas production in Meyer's technology as remember the hydrogen molecules contribute a red glow to make the over all glow violet when air gets ionized that has a high humidity to it.

Meyer also talks about the reaction lasting for a while after the system has been shut down and this could be due to the hydronium ions dumping their charge onto the hydroxide ions with enough energy to break their bonds. It's just a thought for now as I don't have the equipment to take a close look at this but perhaps I know someone that does. I'll give him a call and see if he'd like to test this out for us once I have everything up and running.

It was very interesting to see how they both move without moving thanks for the share very interesting stuff. You might find this study of interest: http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm

This page also talks about hydronium being very stable: http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ionisoh.html and a lot about the hydroxide ions.

I think we are in uncharted territory here as this reaction would need to be run and then it's Ph balance tested in a before and after test and against time to see it the reaction stabilizes as the gas production decreases to see if in fact there is a build up of hydronium ions in the water bath. I might need to pick up a good ph tester for this but the good doctor I know has all the good stuff lets just hope he is willing to test things out for us.
Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 12:41:17 pm
massive do you agree that for every atom species you want to ionize in that way you need to put one electron or take it out of water?

yes 



I shouldve just put pen to paper instead of searching

*Ignoring neutrons to make it less clutter

POSITIVE plate  < OH- anion is attracted (9p 10e)      = 2 e taken by Postive plate
                           O monatomic released  (8p 8e)
                           H+ cation repelled        (1p)

NEGATIVE plate < H3O+ cation is attracted (11p 10e)     = 1 e  given to H+ from OH-, 1e given to H+from H3O+
                           H+ monatomic released  (1p 1e)
                           H2O formed                   (10p 10e)

this is similar to what george wiseman has with sodium hydroxide but with out sodium Hydroxide....., I couldnt find any break down formula any where of straight water

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 12:44:30 pm
^^^ thats 2 for 2 electrons which is the same ol electrolysis , but what if the water molecule wasnt allowed to reform
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 13:34:05 pm
in my "opinion" you are going off track ... i doubted for long time about what meyer was doing and saying and i also thought he messed  around with the ions and also auto ionization propriety of water... i considered all that... thru the way... i learned some physiics which helped guiding better my intuition... but today what i can see is that meyer was indeed looking into splitting the molecule... the ions were only rocks in his way only... thats one view..

in my view as i already declared... the atoms in the molecules simply as Stan also claimed become independent forming monoatomic atoms by action of the electrical polarization process that it is subjected than subsequently forms with another atoms diatomic molecules and exit as a neutral gas... when electron extraction circuit is implemented the gas will exit charged... theres no net charge in the water molecule....

simple as that...

its possible that the some gas come out ionized from the electrical polarization process with polarity according to the switch off programation. this will be a very small percenteage of the outcoming gas since im trying to not dealing with exchange of electrons... that wold be just the lost from voltage zones...

as meyer lately said and nobody could see i clear it up to you the next step would be electron extraction... right?

my question to you and its something meyer already mentioned... does water accept any other electrons?
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 15:10:24 pm
^^^ thats 2 for 2 electrons which is the same ol electrolysis , but what if the water molecule wasnt allowed to reform

From my observations nothing comes together in the field thus giving the chance for hydrogen and oxygen gas production all I need to do now is run the experiment and check to see if the hydronium concentration went up and that will be all the proof we need. I must also check to see how long it takes the water to go back into equilibrium with a ph of 7. Thanks for everything as this puts us clearly on the right path as now I know how to calculate the hydronium ion concentration from the ph readings. This reaction should push the system out of equilibrium as why else would Meyer say it takes time to stop producing gas after the power is turned off?

As for anyone with lots of doubt I must ignore you now as I haven't the time to lay it all out on the line for you to understand just what is going on anymore.

TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 15:37:31 pm
your ignorance wont help you...

please film yourself while you burn your ph meter...
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 18:38:34 pm
I mentioned HOH several years ago at ou.com and was met with complete silence.  Everyone is so sure it's HHO.

H+OH burns with three times the energy as gasoline, according to a 70's article in Scientific American.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 19:46:42 pm
your ignorance wont help you...

please film yourself while you burn your ph meter...

Thanks for you concern for my finances but you must be made aware that I have spent a lot of money in dealing with this technology in order to learn more about it so if the meter burns out that's just the cost of trying to learn something about this technology trust me I am use to it already. Is that why you wont get a differential probe for you are concerned it will burn out on you? You have to be willing to break a few eggs with this technology as we are dealing with a lot of unknowns.
I've spent months putting things together only to watch them burn up within a few minutes after being tested. It doesn't detour me as I learn from my mistakes as all I do is figure out what went wrong, fix the problem, and try again that is part of the scientific method. But I guess that is why you don't like to make use of the scientific method as it requires that you fail many times over until you get it right which a lot of times has a high cost to all of those failures, huh?

I could lay it all out on a line for you but what's the point as each time that I do you never acknowledge anything that you have been shown. In fact most of the time when I do lay it all out on the line for you you reject the science and or body of evidence outright with statements that have nothing supporting them other than they are an idea in your mind that you have chosen to cling too. So, again what's the point of showing you anything if your stance is always that of a Naysayer? Given the overwhelming body of evidence shown that lead towards this technology dealing with IONIZATION you still come in here and say "no it doesn't" without anything supporting your arguments for saying so. To date I have shown a number of reactions taking place in nature that show the original idea is supported by them and one of them even breaks the bonds of the water molecules with ionization and you still come in here and say, "It has nothing to do with ionization." The body of evidence that has been shown is stacked in my favor as they all support the idea that the water molecules are being broken down by way of ionization. Why are you so resistant to the body of evidence you are being shown as support for the idea especially when one of them actually does breaks the bonds of the water molecules with ionization? But my guess is that you missed that one, huh? The one where the bonds of the water molecules are actually being broken down by way of ionization as you never bothered to read anything posted fully, correct? Is this what you are learning in school to ignore supporting evidence and only make use of the scientific method as a last resort if it doesn't fit with how you think things work? If so you should be failing your classes as that is not how science is taught.

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 21:10:49 pm
we are what we are.... those with pure heart will read thru my lines and see the true...

im sorry you want to win the prize of who´s who arrogant of the year... i know now why people have ignored you so hard... i wont waste more time reading or trying to see a reason behind your senseless theory, as a physiscist i indentify too much problems in your understanding of very simple concepts and i repudiate your arrogance more than your crappy theory... you can ignore me how much you want... lets see what others will do when i show it working... or the guy in the street i dont care... i dont ignored you when you came here talk about your video... i hope you have all the light on focus you want...

about burning things i just dont get money now to get another probe... it would not tell me what i had to know... nor will tell anyone... this is a false hope you created to yourself that having it you are closer than me or anybody else who have not.. you will never be better than anyone... you will never be close to science if you dont learn the simplest rules.... in nature survive whos stronger and the stronger will be the one with a crew.

i work with very pure water... but i also vary its purity during tests...

have you ever done the calculation of how many ions would be available thru the autoionization from water? do you know how much ions you got ? thats why i say its irrelevant to meyer magnitude of claims... or even horvath.... i did... if you would have a cavity having 1 liter of water in between plates how much ions would you got?

please do the math of your own theory before you claim its the right, or if you dont have the skills for doing it ask for help.. maybe help is all we need... what prevents you now from going there and make more turns and make it work?

my lazyness is the only thing between me and a working cell...

once my teacher of atomsic and molecular physics sub course, that when you ionize something you will create a current flow...not only because you steal that electron... because you created also motion of that specie, at the other electrode instantaneouly you will have another charge being displaced... thats why when you get for example a positive field it would steal one electron from the oxygen this electron will walk on the circuit... thats why i keep saying that is not simply about applying high voltage across the cell... there are other things playing that you dont get because you didnt folllow our ideas development like most here looking the big picture....
s
i had to come up with this theory out of nothing and yes a differential probe would tell me the same thing that my multimeter told me but i can read even if i cannot see... my multimeter has max and min measurements dc+ac so i´m good with it...



Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 22:14:34 pm
It is strange when people messing with this stuff run out of ideas. Hehehe. 

Sebosfato is on the right track. Stop the current!. 


Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 22:45:06 pm

[/quote]

yes 



I shouldve just put pen to paper instead of searching

*Ignoring neutrons to make it less clutter

POSITIVE plate  < OH- anion is attracted (9p 10e)      = 2 e taken by Postive plate
                           O monatomic released  (8p 8e)
                           H+ cation repelled        (1p)

NEGATIVE plate < H3O+ cation is attracted (11p 10e)     = 1 e  given to H+ from OH-, 1e given to H+from H3O+
                           H+ monatomic released  (1p 1e)
                           H2O formed                   (10p 10e)

this is similar to what george wiseman has with sodium hydroxide but with out sodium Hydroxide....., I couldnt find any break down formula any where of straight water
[/quote]


this is water between 2 plates with electon exchange , NOT a sample of water self ionising , say in a glass

got to raise the question ,
HOW did they reach the theory of self ionization ?
a sample of water with tin foil strip galvanic sensor ?
is it PURELY chalk board theory ?
is it pH levels ?
did  the sample/s they use respond to the earths mag polarity ?


Im skeptical of patent info , Dad Garretts carb is too small to make any amount of useful gas .
I dont beleive at all that archie blue used aluminium plates in his cell , or that Pachecos cell was like the patent description , or that Horvath cell is anything like the patent , or Puharichs cell ,  so when I look at SM patent info , I dont see why he would release accurrate drawings and circuits .
and I dont beleive H Anderson has dangerous radioactive material on board , they called him "the King of the ion"

everyone has got to have a view on what they think is happening between the 2 plates . In the SM video it shows rapid production of gas and he fills it with tap water .
From what we can see there is only 2 plates in each cell

it has to be considered that water has its own natural properties before and during the process
either those natural properties are over ridden by the process or the properties are a part of the process or the properties are amplified to some degree

according to science , water self ionizes , THEY say 2H2O = OH- and H3O+
they are the ones who conjure up these formulas and we stick to them

Im skeptical of science as much as Im skeptical of religion  .  theres too many examples of inventors producing H gas from water that I just see science is road blocking

so I see peoples personal views on sites like this as being more valid and holding more value
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2015, 23:35:09 pm
i think the only where i think i see stan show his production is when the buggy first run... other demosntrations i saw of him were very small gas production,,,

the question would be what cause that autoionization.... i guess is decurrence of natural background radiation... but there are some theories about it,.. the point is water is a matrix and this ions have to be equidistant from each other...

if you get their mean distance and charge and calculate you get the voltage that holds them equidistant,,

there is a discussion here in the forum about it somewhere in the past...

at the university i did a course on tecnology of fuell  cell and there was my first contact with a polarization curve.... there i understood more how those ions behave,,,you could teach yourself on a goodbook about it
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 01:38:28 am
(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/2015-08-19_130012_zps1ayyxeyv.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/2015-08-19_130012_zps1ayyxeyv.png.html)
http://sciexplorer.blogspot.co.nz/2013/01/lightning-part-3-lightning-bolt.html

The air under a thunderstorm is very humid. Ionized hydrogen atoms split apart from from water vapour contribute red to the glow, so that ionized humid air glows violet. These are not my words but theirs and they say the hydrogen atoms split apart from water by way of ionization.

Is this clear enough for all of you! What more do you need?

And this information was shared with me from another person on the hereticalbuilders forum called doobie as he took the time to look for what I was talking about actually taking place in nature and, I might add, found it also.

"Molecules can be separated by taking the electrons away from them." ~ excite the electrons and take them away is the core science. This is my original idea and when I went looking for things like this taking place in nature I found them and shared what I found with everyone on this forum but these finds are rejected due to the man who's word is good as gold sebosfato. I clearly showed that a plant breaks down the water molecules in such a manor and again these are not my words but the words of others explaining how photosynthesis works. Like I said the evidence supporting what I am saying is overwhelming. But here on this forum all of this evidence is treated as something freely given has no value.

I show voltages being applied to the exciter array that no one has ever shown before and I emphasis the word shown as sebosfato has never shown what voltages he is placing on his exciter array as it is only his words which again are taken to be good as gold without any proof backing his words up. No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever shown voltages this high being applied to the WFC other than myself. Not Max Miller, Outlawstc, Russ Griess, Don Gable, Sebosfato, and the list goes on and on and the only way to show this is with an oscilloscope like that of Outlawstc and Max Miller or with a set of differential probes. 8.8kv of potential difference is what I showed and again I have not seen anyone to this date showing voltages that high being placed on their WFC's as I have shown all of you. And again what are the working voltages of the exciter array according to Stanley A. Meyer in his patents? 10-20kv correct? I showed my work and all of this disdain is what I get for my efforts in doing so. If you have to get a differential probe to be able to show your work then get it and do so once you have it as your words are not as good as gold as I require proof just like all of you said I had to do when I showed my work to all of you.

From my point of view you don't want this technology in spite of how much you all say you do as you never demand proof from those coming at you with just their words to back up what they say. Prove me wrong and start demanding that people show you proof of what they are telling you.

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 02:03:15 am
i agree with you in many aspects for example

i didnt said thunderstorm  wont break water.. i said they are not breaking it thru the switch off of the covalent bounding...

i didnt said your undertanding of plants are incorrect i just said is has little to do with the electrical polarization process...

"Molecules can be separated by taking the electrons away from them." ~ excite the electrons and take them away is the core science.

the above is nothing more than an obvious statement that tells that if you take the brick off from a wall the wall will fall...

words are meaningless without trust... if you dont trust what i say why should you trust in my tables... now why should i show you any?

can the water molecule be broken without any exchange of electrons?
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 02:47:28 am
i agree with you in many aspects for example

i didnt said thunderstorm  wont break water.. i said they are not breaking it thru the switch off of the covalent bounding...

i didnt said your undertanding of plants are incorrect i just said is has little to do with the electrical polarization process...

"Molecules can be separated by taking the electrons away from them." ~ excite the electrons and take them away is the core science.

the above is nothing more than an obvious statement that tells that if you take the brick off from a wall the wall will fall...

words are meaningless without trust... if you dont trust what i say why should you trust in my tables... now why should i show you any?

can the water molecule be broken without any exchange of electrons?

Once again you try and belittle what I show as that statement has never been made before as it is an Original Idea. Why I am demanding that you show your work? The scientific method demands that I ask you for proof given in a like manor. I showed you a cost effective differential probe to get and you say it's a waste of money so I really don't expect you will even try to get a truly nice oscilloscope like that of Outlawstc or Max Miller has that have differential probes built right into the unit at a cost of around $5k USD. Show your work as you word is what is meaningless here as I have shown you mines did I not? What are you afraid of? That if you actually get a differential probe it will show the world that you are not getting 50kv to your exciter array which is 30kv over what Meyer says to be the working voltages to the exciter array?

Show us is all I am asking you to do but you come up with every excuse in the book as to why 'you' don't have to show the world your work while the rest of us do. If you need funds start a crowdfunding campaign as I am sure all of your supporters here will give you a hand at getting one as even I might donate to your crowdfunding campaign.

The bottom line is I have shown everyone my work and it has not been surpassed by anyone working in the field to this date. I have also provided my original idea so that everyone can make use of it as they go out looking to see if these things are actually taking place in the world around them. And I remind you that is an original idea so you are not going to find it printed in any of our books of antiquity hence the word Original. I didn't have to share that with anyone as I could have kept that to myself but I shared it with the hopes that others would also be able to understand how this technology actually works. Like I said the body of evidence presented to date is stacked in my favor and I am sure others will find more evidence as time goes on as all they needed was to know what to look for which is what the original idea I posted gives them.

However your words are unsettling as you say the only reason why you haven't gotten it up and working is that you are too lazy. That translates to the world doesn't have this technology right now for you are just too lazy to put in the work necessary so that the world can have this technology. These are your words not mines. Now I have a much clearer picture of the type of man that you actually are and I guess I should say thanks for providing that needed to know information about yourself to us all.

"my lazyness is the only thing between me and a working cell... " a quote from you.

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 05:36:26 am
yes ´m lazy...

you welcome...

and thaNK FOR THAT IDEA that you cant make it work but its correct so if everyone know it someone will use it for `free`` and will be forever thankfull to you... ... you just make me laught too much... i cant wait to meet you one day;; you got to be a nice guy...

i´m the kind of man so lazy that dont really should waste my time or the good energy i get with this unfruitfull discussion.

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 07:54:24 am
yes ´m lazy...

you welcome...

and thaNK FOR THAT IDEA that you cant make it work but its correct so if everyone know it someone will use it for `free`` and will be forever thankfull to you... ... you just make me laught too much... i cant wait to meet you one day;; you got to be a nice guy...

i´m the kind of man so lazy that dont really should waste my time or the good energy i get with this unfruitfull discussion.

What idea that I can't make work are you talking about? What holds me back is far different than what holds you back as I am being held back by all the waiting times between projects as I save up for, pay, and then have to wait until things are made. Steve can even tell you just what I am waiting for right now if he wanted too but really he doesn't have to as I have mentioned just what I am waiting for so that I can proceed with my efforts to get my exciter array up and working. I showed a voltage that is just 1.2kv short of Meyer's 10kv minimum and the changes made should allow me to finally reach Meyer's working voltages for the exciter array.

But one thing is totally clear now is you now understand that ionization does in fact break the bonds of the water molecules as well as everyone else that reads that post I made. So, the doubt of rather or not this technology has anything to do with ionization should be over as like a cloud this technology has capacitive zones also and share many other things like a high voltage potential for example.

This thread ask for a formula on this technology and we broke things down to being that of hydronium and hydroxide ions. From our research it's clear that the hydronium ions are held together to strongly and we also learned that the single bond of the hydroxide ions are sad to be easily broken. Thus it is a logical conclusion that the gas production will be coming from the hydroxide ions as they are being broken down by way of ionization.

We even started planning for future experiments designed further our knowledge on rather or not the hydronium concentration will go up as a results of the process and if it does at what rate does it have towards dropping back down to a level 7 ph balance. These are being planned for in lew of Meyer's words and illustrations where Meyer talks about the reaction producing gases after it has been turned off.

(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/2015-08-23_223806_zpsn84kltrl.png) (http://s1025.photobucket.com/user/h2opower/media/2015-08-23_223806_zpsn84kltrl.png.html)

This is what we are talking about shown in this picture taken from the SMTB as the curve suggest something getting pushed out of equilibrium and then the time it takes for it be go back into equilibrium. These are the experiments we are talking about preparing for and the reasons why we feel we need to perform the experiments. If we can show a increase in the hydronimum concentration for then we know that it is the hydroxide ions that are being broken down to produce the usable fuel gases on demand with Meyer's technology.

As you can see we are moving forwards while you are still debating the tech to be ionization based or not.

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 13:54:26 pm
Yes ionization could break molecule... all ok, just dont put words in my mouth... i dont think meyer break the molecules thru this process, alone... if this is really ever achieved or needed...

i wont tell my theory here.. but it consist into thinking how else could i break the molecule... why would it break... and how i do it without amps...

i can tell you that when you understand my theory (stan theory) you will see

why voltage perform work ( maybe your differential probe told you that already)i had to see with my multimeter...

i proposed this experiment here a while ago but i guess no one seems to have tried it so unfortunately i have no other confirmation than my tests and tables with results...just connecting thecells in series and put a voltmeter across them and pulse the inner electrode with high freq high voltage,,, this is the same as having a differential probe with very high insulation fromground depending where are you multimeters cables and where its standing...

how the diode turns off and why it prevent electrons from shorting to the secondary

you will also see that there is no point trying to win an argument by the force... there is no difference if the gas will come out ionized or not untill it comes out and we can see how its face looks like..

only there we can put a resistor together connected from ground to a grid passing the gas thru it and see the way the current will flow...

or make it flow in a coiled tube and measure the magnetic force for example...

thats the way science really works...

the autoionization is a limited process timelimited... i have in the university of biology a friend that gives me water from a purifier i just forgot the name but costs like 30000 dollars and makes the water used for dna manipulations... they give me as much as i want... but just to you see the water start to get conductive as it gets out of the filter... the air in contact with it start to lend nitrogen to its matrix, oxygen, gases, and Co2 and others gases dissolves forming conductive electroilyte.. thats how they discovered it.. they realized that there was no way to keep taking ions out of water they would ever keep apearing and making the conductance never get to zero.

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 14:03:55 pm
about the resonant action.. where the gas keep comming out... thats because stan said it is arranged to become as self sustained oscillation system... it mean that when he gates it the oscillation on the coils will keep going...

i will tell you one thing guys


in my opinion of a simple man the wfc is a sort of capacitor that has a capacitance leap when the gas is generated... when this happens across the cell a very high voltage apear across the cell... its analogous to change the dielectric value or forcing charged electrodes to go far from each other...

this is

sit where you are

amplification  of energy

right?

so if we get the point where gas is generated and the Q factor of the system is above a certain value the system will indeed oscillate undefinately untill parameter change and its pulled out of resonance or actually up to the point where theres no more water

now you see why resonance action? do you see i´m not bla bla bla my friend?

do you see that if you ionize water it gets conductive and you kill the high voltage you are trying to put into it... at least in one point of view electric fields are also defined by the current going thru a resistive media so if you get both equations aside you see that if you get purer water is even better than filling with chemicals for example even if the chemical would distort the molecules making them weakened ... 

you kill the high voltage from the inside, yes you generate a small gas since you are breaking the molecule by ionization... however as you do this you are just doing a very high brute force electrolysis... just the same... you are ionizind because there is nothing less to allow the current flow.. big deal the real big problem with electrolysis sis that you need to set an overvoltage potential and this leads the efficiency to such small factor, including polarization is what really causes the electrolysis to be unefficient...  you set a potential and the cell set a backelectromotive potential that force you to add at least this amount of potential to the electron so it can win the barrier and pass thru``..

you see your ionization idea duplicate this error in a gigantic manner... HV+HIGH AMPS = HIGH POWER  :o

YOU ARE GOOD INTENTION i value that.. i hope you just ask yourself...is there anyone in this world who maybe know something else i dont?

i guess my secret is to ask this every day to my self and try to understand what i dont!

if you leave something on for 1 second and it keeps on for 90 seconds the Q and amplification factor is very huge

i told you all this and yet didnt touched my theory.. thats because its to be released if i prove that its correct or just to tell you what i did and you can do also if you want... 

my idea is not to be the hho man... i just want to make it work and put all of you in front of it and ask if you want to change the world in the way its better to be... than if you want to help great otherwise you get your water car and keep going...
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 17:21:22 pm
about the resonant action.. where the gas keep comming out... thats because stan said it is arranged to become as self sustained oscillation system... it mean that when he gates it the oscillation on the coils will keep going...

i will tell you one thing guys


in my opinion of a simple man the wfc is a sort of capacitor that has a capacitance leap when the gas is generated... when this happens across the cell a very high voltage apear across the cell... its analogous to change the dielectric value or forcing charged electrodes to go far from each other...

this is

sit where you are

amplification  of energy

right?

so if we get the point where gas is generated and the Q factor of the system is above a certain value the system will indeed oscillate undefinately untill parameter change and its pulled out of resonance or actually up to the point where theres no more water

now you see why resonance action? do you see i´m not bla bla bla my friend?

do you see that if you ionize water it gets conductive and you kill the high voltage you are trying to put into it... at least in one point of view electric fields are also defined by the current going thru a resistive media so if you get both equations aside you see that if you get purer water is even better than filling with chemicals for example even if the chemical would distort the molecules making them weakened ... 

you kill the high voltage from the inside, yes you generate a small gas since you are breaking the molecule by ionization... however as you do this you are just doing a very high brute force electrolysis... just the same... you are ionizind because there is nothing less to allow the current flow.. big deal the real big problem with electrolysis sis that you need to set an overvoltage potential and this leads the efficiency to such small factor, including polarization is what really causes the electrolysis to be unefficient...  you set a potential and the cell set a backelectromotive potential that force you to add at least this amount of potential to the electron so it can win the barrier and pass thru``..

you see your ionization idea duplicate this error in a gigantic manner... HV+HIGH AMPS = HIGH POWER  :o

YOU ARE GOOD INTENTION i value that.. i hope you just ask yourself...is there anyone in this world who maybe know something else i dont?

i guess my secret is to ask this every day to my self and try to understand what i dont!

if you leave something on for 1 second and it keeps on for 90 seconds the Q and amplification factor is very huge

i told you all this and yet didnt touched my theory.. thats because its to be released if i prove that its correct or just to tell you what i did and you can do also if you want... 

my idea is not to be the hho man... i just want to make it work and put all of you in front of it and ask if you want to change the world in the way its better to be... than if you want to help great otherwise you get your water car and keep going...

I'll take this to my thread as I'd like massive and I to keep working together on this.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 22:27:55 pm

Im readng george Wisemans book at the moment , in his hunt to unravel Yull Browns technology he discovered series plates , all of which are neutral .
he removed the transformer so theres no transformer loses because he was after low volts , approx 2 volt per cell .
240 vac / 2 v = 120 cells . he uses a bridge rectifier and ac caps for power supply current limiting.
so as far as electrolysis he has already raised effeciency over traditional technology and his gas out put is monatomic which has more volume .
V x I = W    , by lowering V to essential level only , it is more effecient.

I was thinking last night about OH+ , being easiest bond to break . O = 8p , 8n ,8e  , leaving H+ = 1p !!!!!

so is H+ an authentic chemical  OR purely electrical entity OR purely theoretical ?????

sounds simply stuppid but anyhoo ..... if H+ is a single proton and called a hydrogen ion then what are the 8 protons in the nucleus of the Oxygen atom ?????

are H+ "ions" the building blocks of the nucleus ??

(so electrons and holes is another way of picturing what is going on)

all the while focus is on SM and his invention, the other inventors must be considered at the same time , after all they achieved H gas out puts also and with out traditional electrolysis

Herman Anderson (king of the ion) , A Puharich , S Horvath .

was the output monatomic or diatomic or both or ionized gas being either ,+ ion or - ion

on that basis HOW did it get to be ionized ? that leads back to the "process" , either electrons were given or taken OR the gas was monatomic , diatomic OR both , that leads back to the "process" also

so is Oxygen , 8H+ , 8n , 8e ?       proton being H+ , sounds stuppid but isnt a proton a proton ?

just a thought...

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2015, 22:37:49 pm
good question.. the answer is yes ... if you could take for example 2 protons out of oxygen and more 2 neutrons you would get two hydrogen atoms or even a helium atom... and would end up with nitrogen

actually after 11 minutes the neutrons decay into another two hydrogen atom with its own electron each...

this were only examples..

Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 25, 2015, 20:18:14 pm
The hydrogen will always go to form the hydrogen molecule but the oxygen will not. Once the oxygen has depleted the oxygen molecules from which to join with and create ozone it will remain as a monatomic gas atom for a while. The reason why these monatomic oxygen gas atoms don't come together all that quickly is they all have the same charge and like charges repel, correct?

A long time ago this got me to thinking about just what was creating all of this excess energy and it dawned on me that the oxygen atom is responsible for this in Meyer's technology as it has far more electrons to lose and Meyer is actually targeting them to take away up to 4-5 electrons away from the oxygen atoms prior to using them for the creation of the water molecules by being spark ignited in the presence of hydrogen.

Once the reaction is started these two atoms must form the water molecules but they can't as the oxygen atom is missing electrons. Meyer called this extended time prolonging the formation of the water molecules as once the reaction was started these atoms have to come up with the missing electrons from the zero point. It is here where all of the excess energy comes from as E=MC2 tells us the energy given off for the creation of these missing electrons as the electrons have mass.

Give this some thought...

Shalom,
TGS
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 25, 2015, 23:50:02 pm
Checking the literature to see what is already known in a given field is part of the Scientific Method.  doobie was using the Scientific Method when he found the information about lightning splitting water, as evidenced by the red component of the glowing discharge.  Now that Ed Mitchel has accepted this information as valid, here's a question for him:

Why is the spark from a worn out ignition coil red?

It's because the coil isn't producing any amps, just voltage.  So this voltage, only, must be splitting a little of the water present in air as humidity.  Right?

I found out a long time ago how to get a red discharge from my Plasmoid circuit.  I wasn't using any Scientific Method.  I was just experimenting at random, and made an accidental discovery.  That's how I work, and that's the Method I use.  I'm good at making accidental discoveries.  Isn't this still valid to Stan Meyer's system?  Remember that Plasmoid produces an IONIZING RADIATION, red or otherwise.

Whether or not I share this information depends on someone else's attitude. 
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 26, 2015, 01:28:22 am
Checking the literature to see what is already known in a given field is part of the Scientific Method.  doobie was using the Scientific Method when he found the information about lightning splitting water, as evidenced by the red component of the glowing discharge.  Now that Ed Mitchel has accepted this information as valid, here's a question for him:

Why is the spark from a worn out ignition coil red?

It's because the coil isn't producing any amps, just voltage.  So this voltage, only, must be splitting a little of the water present in air as humidity.  Right?

I found out a long time ago how to get a red discharge from my Plasmoid circuit.  I wasn't using any Scientific Method.  I was just experimenting at random, and made an accidental discovery.  That's how I work, and that's the Method I use.  I'm good at making accidental discoveries.  Isn't this still valid to Stan Meyer's system?  Remember that Plasmoid produces an IONIZING RADIATION, red or otherwise.

Whether or not I share this information depends on someone else's attitude.

All will be ignored from you as you are not a friend but the opposite and I truly do not feel comfortable talking to you.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 26, 2015, 17:23:49 pm
Checking the literature to see what is already known in a given field is part of the Scientific Method.  doobie was using the Scientific Method when he found the information about lightning splitting water, as evidenced by the red component of the glowing discharge.  Now that Ed Mitchel has accepted this information as valid, here's a question for him:

Why is the spark from a worn out ignition coil red?

It's because the coil isn't producing any amps, just voltage.  So this voltage, only, must be splitting a little of the water present in air as humidity.  Right?

I found out a long time ago how to get a red discharge from my Plasmoid circuit.  I wasn't using any Scientific Method.  I was just experimenting at random, and made an accidental discovery.  That's how I work, and that's the Method I use.  I'm good at making accidental discoveries.  Isn't this still valid to Stan Meyer's system?  Remember that Plasmoid produces an IONIZING RADIATION, red or otherwise.

Whether or not I share this information depends on someone else's attitude.

All will be ignored from you as you are not a friend but the opposite and I truly do not feel comfortable talking to you.
Likewise, I will stop reading your messages and any message which quotes your message.  You've accused me of being a racist too many times, always ignoring my answer.  Now you're spelling my user name with a KKK.  In light of your prior behavior, this can be nothing but a slanderous reference to the Klu Klux Klan, the racial hate group.
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2015, 11:04:41 am

placing water between 2 conductive plates cant be called electrolysis because the water has pH7 to begin with . 
water charge is neutral , net zero
anions and cations are of equal number
there is no additive , acid or base

anion OH-  (9p , 10e)  and cation H3O+  (11p , 10e)  = self ionization 

only the self ionization formula fits

I cant find any formula or study of break down of water out side of electrolysis , which is a contamination of a simple experiment which thousands of people must have performed in the last 17 years alone , using straight water

Faraday would most certainly have performed his initial first experiment   ,without any additive .

all the argument against H2 as a fuel always falls back on Electrolysis but once the additive is removed , theres no basic experiment out there to say for or against


Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2015, 14:25:32 pm
if you compare this to electrolysis is like comparing semiconductor to metals..

in semiconductors there can be positive and negative charge carrier or both... in metals only electrons conducts...

in water is like on a semiconductor... if you get only positive ions inside it will conduct... so as if you had negative ions... or if you had both...

or do you think that neutralizing the acidity would lead to zero current?

well we could test it... get it very pure water mix with acid and test the conductivity... than add base to neutralize the ph and we would have neutral ph... but the point is it would conduct however...

ph is only the proportion between the positive and negative ions in the water latice... not how many net ions...

if we consider that we have both base and acid in equal proportion why should the electrolyte heat if the ions does not need to cross the cell...

this are some questions i have too..


what happens when we mix a saturated base solution with a acid solution... very huge heat come out...
Title: Re: Does anyone know what the reaction is , when theres no electrolyte?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2015, 19:18:02 pm

placing water between 2 conductive plates cant be called electrolysis because the water has pH7 to begin with . 
water charge is neutral , net zero
anions and cations are of equal number
there is no additive , acid or base

anion OH-  (9p , 10e)  and cation H3O+  (11p , 10e)  = self ionization 

only the self ionization formula fits

I cant find any formula or study of break down of water out side of electrolysis , which is a contamination of a simple experiment which thousands of people must have performed in the last 17 years alone , using straight water

Faraday would most certainly have performed his initial first experiment   ,without any additive .

all the argument against H2 as a fuel always falls back on Electrolysis but once the additive is removed , theres no basic experiment out there to say for or against

Do a google search on impact dissociation of water.  There's a lot of non-electrolysis work out there.  This also includes OH splitting on impact with an electrode, or even a particle of water.  It's known that Hydroxyl ions occur naturally in water.  Couldn't a few of them be accelerated to produce an ion cascade?  "Instantly"?