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Projects by members => Projects by members => Timeshell => Topic started by: timeshell on February 23, 2015, 05:30:39 am

Title: How the VIC Works - IMPORTANT!
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2015, 05:30:39 am
In a step up transformer, the power in equals the power out.  However, the power is transformed in that the increased resistance in the longer coil of the secondary induces a higher voltage.  This is because of the ratio of the resistance from the primary to the secondary coils.

Let's say we step up the voltage at a ratio of 1:5.  If we input voltage into the primary at 12 volts and step it up, we get an output of 60 volts.  Let's say our primary has a resistance of 10 ohms. That means the current on the primary will be 1.2A and transformed onto the secondary the current will be 1.2/5 =0.24A if our secondary has a resistance 5 times higher than the primary.  And this will be the driving current of our secondary circuit.

Now, if we look at the L1 and L2 coils of the VIC.  Once the primary of the VIC has received an on pulse it will initiate a current in the secondary of 0.24A.  The VIC is made of inductors.   Inductors by nature oppose changes to the flow of current.  So, once the off pulse comes, the L1 and L2 coils are going to oppose any change in their current flow.  Here is where the magic happens.  If we assume that the L1 and L2 have an inductive reactance of 60,000 ohms at resonance then L1 and L2 will have to induce a voltage of 60,000 ohm x 0.24A (V=IR) which is 14,400 V to keep the current flowing on the off pulse.

This whole system works as a DC resonant charging circuit as is shown here:
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html

TS

This topic is somewhat of an accumulation of research.  Much of it is related to and referenced in many of my past topics in my project section.  Some of it is a clarified understanding of past posts.  Throughout this topic I make regular references to the sources of my information that I have either recently discovered or previously discovered over the last 7 years.  There is also references to others research and findings contained in the attached links.  I do not wish to claim sole credit for this knowledge nor do I claim it to be complete or without error.  However, I believe I have come to recognize the operation of the VIC circuit as a whole and am explaining what I have come to understand.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2015, 10:47:37 am
Hi TS,

All the 3 coils , 2 chokes and secondairy, are getting the first change when the primary gets charged.
By the off state of the primary, all three will discharge thru the totall resistance of the closed circuit.

I think it is a bit different then the dc resonance charging system of mr Burnett....
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2015, 12:10:58 pm
Hi TS,

All the 3 coils , 2 chokes and secondairy, are getting the first change when the primary gets charged.
By the off state of the primary, all three will discharge thru the totall resistance of the closed circuit.

I think it is a bit different then the dc resonance charging system of mr Burnett....

Only if they are all on the same core.


I believe there are flaws in their interpretation, but they explain a new approach suggesting Meyers cores were at least in some way separate.  This also includes some direction and inspiration I received from R.Walker. 

TS
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 07:03:23 am
I believe there are some fundamental flaws in Russ video in the flow of the VIC.  I am working on the premise that this coil arrangement is correct.  However, here is how I believe that it is functioning.

First off, let's look at the initial pulse on the primary core.  It will create a field on the core creating a potential difference across the L2 coil.   Now the one thing that they are not seeing is that this also creates a voltage potential across the L1 and secondary coils (which are in series) also at the same time since they are in parallel with L1.  This means that the voltage created on L2  will develop a field on the secondary core (which have L1 and the secondary connected in series) at the same time as L2 purely because of the voltage potential developing across L2.

Now, because L1 and the secondary are connected in such a way so that their current will oppose each other, the net effect will be that they cancel each other out, preventing current flow and leaving that side of the water cell with a nearly static electrical state.

However, L2 is not static.  It continues to receive a pulse from the primary and induces current opposing the static state on the opposite side of the cell creating the pulse stretching effect on the building charge of the cell; essentially, the unipolar pulse.  This is where the L2 must be variable to tune into the resonant properties occurring at the static side of the cell. Once they match, you will have a proper unipolar pulse across the cell.

When tuning the frequency, the resonant pulse will have a tuning range at resonance. I believe that it will need to be tuned in such a way while monitoring the wave form of the feedback coil so that peaks are reduced only until pulses and gate time reduce to form the side by side pulses indicated in Meyers "inductive coupling diagram".  I have done this and created this coupling effect.

EDIT:
Also, as I indicate in my past KB post TSKB00006 at http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2409.msg22744.html#msg22744, L2, being variable, may need to be exactly tuned to the corresponding inductance value for its side of the water cell, whose capacitance is different from the opposite side due to the difference in plate area so that matching resonance occurs on both sides of the cell.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 10:46:02 am
According to Meyer him self the system must mess around with the potential of the cell and that frequency would double because of the action of the coils...

---Timeshell:  This occurs at resonance.

My idea of it is that this action arise because of the asymmetrical configuration of the cell.   

Since inside a charged sphere the electric field is zero but potential is not when the positive pulse come to the outer cylinder it raises its potential and as there is a series of cells connected there is indeed an electric field.
Meyer says that electrons are extracted from the cell such that it never comes below an arbitrary ground voltage reference.

  The pulsing can be only in a few ways...

Or the diode is conducting during pulse on or off

or if the coils should add or subtract (on the second core)

so basically 4 setups to tests.

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 13:54:30 pm
According to Meyer him self the system must mess around with the potential of the cell and that frequency would double because of the action of the coils...

The frequency and voltage doubling is simply the action of the DC resonant charging circuit which is L1 with the cell.  L2 balances it to keep the charge in the cell.   Refer to the link in the first post. The VIC very closely resembles that circuit.

It's still an interesting variation of a DC resonant charging circuit.

EDIT:
Actually, the functions of L1 and L2 may be reversed of what is stated above.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 17:38:57 pm
What i meant is that in asymmetrical capacitors there is a voltage that appears on the other electrode if you simply charge one electrode..   

The electric field locally will be equivalent to the potential achieved.. . 

If you charge the inner electrode there is automatically a potential difference set up between the electrodes... the charges wants to go to the outer electrode if you would short them...

on the opposite situation the charge remains in the outer electrode, and brings the potential of whats inside with it...... so if you charge the inner electrode negatively than send a positive pulse to the outer electrode during pulse off it would generate a doubling frequency.. .using potential only as a force within the circuit...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 18:12:11 pm
In this context, I'm not even sure that is relevant.  In short, we are creating and pulsing a potential difference across an open circuit.  This is really what matters.

I think too much focus is being put on the capacitor now. While knowing the capacitance value is important to set the frequency, understanding how the rest of the VIC works is more important and will make you realize what the capacitor is doing.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 22:24:22 pm
dudes,

listen to my 2 cents.
I am winding my vic replica and i made many drawings.
As an electronic engineer from education , i can tell you that the secondairy coil and the 2 chokes can be seen as 1 coil.
The wfcell sits exactly in the middle of that coil.
Like if it sits in the middle of a battery or magnet.
Some kind of neutral place or whatever.
Think about what kind of magnet field is in the middle of a magnet where plus and minus meet....
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2015, 22:45:08 pm
dudes,

listen to my 2 cents.
I am winding my vic replica and i made many drawings.
As an electronic engineer from education , i can tell you that the secondairy coil and the 2 chokes can be seen as 1 coil.
The wfcell sits exactly in the middle of that coil.
Like if it sits in the middle of a battery or magnet.
Some kind of neutral place or whatever.
Think about what kind of magnet field is in the middle of a magnet where plus and minus meet....

With all due respect, I'm in discussions with an electrical engineer.  You're also not taking into consideration the reference point that Meyers puts into the VIC circuits, something an electrical engineer would recognize.  And assuming that there are two cores, it will not necessarily operate the same way.  Not to mention the coils are wired to oppose current flow with each other.

From what I can see, we need to stop looking at the VIC in a linear fashion.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2015, 03:11:56 am
About that second core.  Think about where the first resonance is going to happen.  We give a pulse in the primary and the L2 coupled to the primary becomes energized developing a voltage potential across it.  As previously stated, the voltage is now also across the L1 and secondary which are in series and together are parallel to L2.  Because there is a voltage now across the L1 / secondary, a field gets created on the second core.  A resonance develops between L1 and the WFC and a frequency develops on the secondary core.  How can we use this?  Oh, the feedback coil!  With the feedback coil on the secondary core we now have the ability to detect actual resonance between L1 and the WFC distinctly separate from the primary core and feed that to the PLL!

I suspect that could be why the L2 is variable and not the L1.  L2 needs to then be physically tuned to match reactance with its side of the WFC and the resonant feedback coming from the secondary core!
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2015, 14:31:02 pm
Well Ts i can tell you i just found something really interesting...
i wold say to forget this diagram they present for the moment and stick to meyers diagrams...however using this two core coils dividision...

 i would tell you that you should consider it as a transmission line...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2015, 14:33:18 pm
Well Ts i can tell you i just found something really interesting...
i wold say to forget this diagram they present for the moment and stick to meyers diagrams...however using this two core coils dividision...

 i would tell you that you should consider it as a transmission line...

Well Fabio, I already do.
I used to work for an electric utility.  And the electrical engineer I referred to above was the president of that utility.

;)

I believe I already indicated my concern about the flaws in their interpretation of the diagram in that video link.  I included it mainly to demonstrate the dual core approach.

 TS
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 28, 2015, 12:09:43 pm
basically i'm trying to identify the modes of oscillation of the coils.... and how this would be different than a simple transformer..
I'm shooting the frequencies to it and analyzing voltage current and frequency for all possible configurations...
 
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 04:27:32 am
What I have found in simulation is that the combined sum of inductance in the whole VIC must be accounted for in the resonant property of the WFC.  Whether this is true in application I don't know,  but in simulation, I achieve a 15kV charge on a 702 pF cap using a value of of 721.65 mH on the coils on the secondary core at 5kHz and a gate pulse of 75Hz.  The L2 on the primary core likewise has a relatively low inductance.  Higher inductances on the coil directly coupled to the primary core seem to produce lower voltages.

Ei: the resonant frequency for a 702pF cap with a 1.44 H coil is 5kHz.  According to the simulation to get high voltage on the cap, the total inductance of all the coils (and using the mutual Inductance value from the primary core, not the L2's inductance value) must be equal to 1.44H.  And the L2 main inductance must be lower to get a higher charge on the cap.

Keep in mind that I am using the format of 2 cores where the L2 is coupled to the primary and the L1 is coupled to the secondary.

I will add that I have not been able to confirm this in application yet.   Awaiting some parts to fix my WFC.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 16:59:55 pm
Ts i think it has more to do with the length of the line... the cell should become as charged a very high resistance...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:11:37 pm
Maybe.  However, I'm not convinced wire resistance is the primary focus yet.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:16:54 pm
wel the resistance play an important role if impedances are not matched there are reflections and so power absorbed by the load can be almost 0 witch actually is what we should want but we need to get the charge to the water molecules for them to break apart The water molecules get charged when the high electric field is applied and retain its charge for a time called relaxation time...  it seems a fight between order and heat...


My question to you is what is and where is the load?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:20:42 pm
Resistance is at its maximum due to resonance and opposing currents.   I'm not sure that the wire resistance itself has any important effect.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:25:31 pm
If the cell is a short circuit the amps goes to zero as stan stated.....

If the cell is a high impedance actually the line will have a short circuit facing it... so the current goes to a maximum

High voltage should be present however in both cases so fas as i know

it depends on the load... this kind of transformer has only to do with frequency and length but this is not the only things to be matched... i'm taking a deep look into it...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:33:00 pm
there may be a condition where the cell goes to high voltage regime and the water retain the charge...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:35:35 pm
I think you should re-read Andrija Puharich's patent.

http://www.globalkast.com/docs/Andrija%20Puharich%20-%20US4394230.pdf
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 17:42:57 pm
Right now I am getting 400V DC spikes going across each choke with nearly 0A.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 18:18:07 pm
The problem is to get this voltage in the cell bro... across the coils there should be 20kv or so for that
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 18:19:24 pm
lol

I know.  :)

Even at the WFC I have 0A.

I measure 400V from the WFC from the L1 outside to the L2 inside.  But take it to the L2 outside to the WFC and there's nothing.  No volts or current.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 18:25:06 pm
Oh, I have noticed that tuning the gating frequency changes the alignment of the pulses. Probably important.   Simulations say to keep the gate pulse at probably between 75 and 125.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 02, 2015, 19:57:49 pm
Ok.  I am using a small value cap instead of the WFC at the moment and have noticed a very distinct pattern. On both sides of resonance there is a point where the voltage jumps really high really fast across the cap out of the limits of my scope.  My scope's limits is a couple thousand volts I believe.  I catch the drop back down being in the hundreds of volts.

I'm not sure we should be aiming for actual resonance...

Or my L2 is out of tune...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 03:05:58 am
when i was doing my first tests with the vic back in 2006 i had no diode in parallel with my primary nor a resistor... i was playing with the windings and found that if i had around 30turns of wire after the diode at the same core as the secondary the voltage would go to the limit of the capacitor... and the same didn't happen without the 30turns coil the secondary  had maybe 300 turns at a toroidal core the size of a hand for the secondary and maybe 30turns for the primary... strangely if the turns were more the voltage would be lower and if lower the volts go low again..

I referred many times by the vic working as a charge pump mechanism but i was not succeed in applying this to the water and see the same effect...

It acted as a boost converter but the collapse of the two coils formed a high voltage that goes to the capacitor... later i thought it could be due to the simple kick back from the transformer and concluded that it were the case..

But maybe i was wrong and it was not the case!

The more i learn the more i doubt of the conclusions i took from the tests i did in the past...


Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 03:15:31 am
when i was doing my first tests with the vic back in 2006 i had no diode in parallel with my primary nor a resistor... i was playing with the windings and found that if i had around 30turns of wire after the diode at the same core as the secondary the voltage would go to the limit of the capacitor... and the same didn't happen without the 30turns coil the secondary  had maybe 300 turns at a toroidal core the size of a hand for the secondary and maybe 30turns for the primary... strangely if the turns were more the voltage would be lower and if lower the volts go low again..

I referred many times by the vic working as a charge pump mechanism but i was not succeed in applying this to the water and see the same effect...

It acted as a boost converter but the collapse of the two coils formed a high voltage that goes to the capacitor... later i thought it could be due to the simple kick back from the transformer and concluded that it were the case..

But maybe i was wrong and it was not the case!

The more i learn the more i doubt of the conclusions i took from the tests i did in the past...

Sorry some of that isn't quite clear....  I didn't quite follow the flow of the 30 turns and where that was placed in the circuit.

In simulation with the two core approach if the inductance on L2 is too high it actually prevents proper charging.   This is also consistent with my findings here:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2426.msg22802.html#msg22802

In this case, this seems to apply more to the L2 choke.

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 03:26:45 am
In that case it seemed like if the diode within the coils act as a voltage multiplier of some kind... thats what i mean...

In that case the was a toroidal transformer having a primary a secondary and a choke having 30turns connecting the secondary to the choke thru a diode would result in high voltage output... if the diode goes in the end not!

Iit seem like the coils capacitance were charged and the collapse than adds up the voltages together... i was just mentioning
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 04:18:17 am
A thought just came to mind. The reactance of the coils MUST be lower than or equal to the WFC at any given frequency for this to work. Again, referring to:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2426.msg22802.html#msg22802

If the reactance of the coils at any time are higher than the WFC you won't be able to get a charge on it.   At least that's the way I understand it.

Of course, equal reactance on both coils and WFC means resonance...

So, L1 in series with the secondary on the secondary core needs to be at resonance with the WFC to restrict current flow on that side of the WFC, but L2 needs to be set up BELOW resonance in order create a charge on the WFC.  (Thinking out loud)
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 14:28:59 pm
I still need to fix my main WFC.  The nuts I had been using on it are not SS and I'm pretty sure it's corrupting the capacitance I'm looking for by adding oxides to the water.  I'm expecting some SS nuts in the mail this week.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 19:13:02 pm
In that case it seemed like if the diode within the coils act as a voltage multiplier of some kind... thats what i mean...

In that case the was a toroidal transformer having a primary a secondary and a choke having 30turns connecting the secondary to the choke thru a diode would result in high voltage output... if the diode goes in the end not!

Iit seem like the coils capacitance were charged and the collapse than adds up the voltages together... i was just mentioning

Still sounds like a DC resonant charging circuit.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2015, 22:54:19 pm
probably it was i'm just saying it was strange...

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 04, 2015, 12:33:29 pm
 was thinking and maybe was a good idea to use the diode after the choke and probably even better to have two diodes one at each side to prevent the capacitor from discharging to the choke

I think the diode makes a selective port for the reflections occurring...

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 04, 2015, 15:19:37 pm
Dual core VIC simulation.

I get a 100kV charge on the "WFC" in about 40 seconds.  Current stays in the uA range.

Positioning of the resistor is probably wrong. With the resistor across both caps the voltage charge remains under 10 volts.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 04, 2015, 19:47:41 pm
your simulation is far from reality

the resistance of water can be only a couple of kilo ohms
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2015, 01:11:52 am
your simulation is far from reality

the resistance of water can be only a couple of kilo ohms

Only?  A couple kilo ohms would be better compared to what I have.  135<1k ohm.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2015, 11:07:43 am
there are filters that you can use to deionise the water... do you have a ppm meter?

well actually the resistance of the water should not change things much because as per stan words if you restrict the amps and use the voltage potential to do the work the water will get charged !

May i ask you a question? If you get a charged conducting sphere that you connected to a source of 1kv positive relative to ground, what is the electric field right next to the sphere? what is the electric field 1m away? what if the dielectric was water?

Now imagine its a hollow sphere, what is the electric field inside?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2015, 13:57:56 pm
there are filters that you can use to deionise the water... do you have a ppm meter?

well actually the resistance of the water should not change things much because as per stan words if you restrict the amps and use the voltage potential to do the work the water will get charged !

May i ask you a question? If you get a charged conducting sphere that you connected to a source of 1kv positive relative to ground, what is the electric field right next to the sphere? what is the electric field 1m away? what if the dielectric was water?

Now imagine its a hollow sphere, what is the electric field inside?

I have done some research already on this idea. Sounds like you're describing a single plate capacitor which as I've read makes the opposing "plate" a sphere of infinite size.  I cannot answer the questions you asked but would appreciate if you could provide some direction to answer them.

Regarding the water outside the sphere, I can only imagine it would polarize.  Regarding the inside of the sphere, I imagine it would have a charge nearly equal to the outside.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2015, 19:52:04 pm
The electric field inside  hollow conductor is always zero unless there is another conductor inside with a charge.

Yes i'm referring to the one plate sphere capacitor because is a geometry of easy calculation.

The rest you need to find how to answer to yourself otherwise i will be of no help just telling it... the electric field is the derivative of the potential...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 06, 2015, 05:01:03 am
The gated pulse is NOT just to build a charge on the WFC.  It starts by building a charge on the coils!

The primary frequency pulse builds charges on all the coils, starting with the primary, but doesn't release it until the gate off pulse.  When released by the gate off pulse, it is released by thousands, even hundreds of thousands of induced volts, both on primary and secondary when the core's field collapses.

The high resistance/impedance in the secondary circuit prevents the charge from leaving the secondary coil until the off gate pulse.  Once the gate pulse is off, the secondary will generate a voltage large enough to push the current to the WFC.  How much of a charge that is is determined by the length of the gate on pulse.  The longer the on pulse, the higher the charge.  But it will not discharge until the gate off pulse.   The amount of voltage could literally be hundreds of thousands of volts coming out of the coil!  A lot of it dissipates on hitting the resistance of the WFC, but a high peak to peak voltage wave will still show up on it.

The gate pulse frequency needs to be very low, possibly from 1 to 25 Hz for example, but have a high duty cycle, like 80% to 90%.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 06, 2015, 10:25:40 am
I would not say i'm sure but it seems to me the primary is the only place where this can be happening probably because of the parallel diode... since if you apply a freuquency higher than the LR frequency of the primary the primary current is not allowed to come back to zero until you gate it.

i think this should not be the case... without high voltage going to the cell all the time how would molecules get charged in a single bang?


I have the impression that the idea is to set up high electric fields and than bring to zero... in a frequency high enough for water to retain a charge when the water than reach high voltage the gate acts to allow the electric field to go to zero...

so during pulse train the water charges during gate it discharges... during this discharge the atoms combine in different configuration exiting as gas having neutral charge...

If you look at stan waveforms it looks just like that...

Notice however that each pulse also goes from zero to peak to zero...

the frequency doubling thing also occurs during pulse off meaning during pulse off a positive pulse is sent to discharge the cell... so the gate is the same..

i'm looking at it as a single wire TL

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2015, 17:59:15 pm
My working VIC seems to support this coil charging method.  While not getting gas yet, I am getting high voltage peaks on the secondary coils which are way higher than they would be with the coil ratio against the primary.  At resonance I appear to be getting peaks in the thousands of volts across the coils which are causing my oscilloscope to reset in protection mode.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2015, 20:39:59 pm
I'm more in favor of the fact that meyer used ionized water and I have a theory that supports it, there are 2 newly formed capacitors: think of a parallel plate capacitor and now you put an opposite charged capacitor between while increasing the capacitors' energy from a free source, this way you can send free energy back to the coils then discharge all capacitors so this effect can take place again, the only downside is that according to research it takes minutes to store the energy in the new capacitors. When I say free I mean from the environment..

If I'm right the surface of the electrode is all that matters.
http://i.imgur.com/ELJgeC5.png

Maybe something like this?  ;D

http://i.imgur.com/WJyQbRW.png

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2015, 16:29:09 pm
I guess that is the idea.. water has a high dielectric value and that means that its a good solvent but as in your picture shows the double layer formed reduces a lot the electric field... its called a shielding effect... the water has the ability to conduct an electric field higher than vacuum meaning that the voltage drop on water should be lower than in the vacuum case... that means the infinite ground should be farther away from source test charge. this is where the zero goes...

If the water gap is high enough you can apply electric fields on both sides while the middle receives no electric field at all,,,



Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2015, 19:50:00 pm
Water being polar can absorb radiant energy to increase the capacitor gap increasing voltage which in theory if is large enough you can use to increase the voltage really high , it would explain why conditioning the tubes gets you better results except the larger surface area which would also increase current. The electrolyte solution is the ground in this case. Pure water is the dielectric , the electrodes are Metal+ | negative ions and positive ions| Metal- . This double layer effect happens with all electrolysis cells but water and other solvents can rearrange themselves given the circumstances and the electrode surface you can try nafion or to condition your tubes you can try for yourself get a camera with zoom and a container with a window  put dye in ionized water and measure the formed gap. I haven't tested it yet.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2015, 22:34:29 pm
I see it like this...

Meyer would not put evidence on the easiest way to get a cell working so he show an asymmetric device which carry its own required logic to be operated...

I think the amp inhibiting coil is a coil used to close the circuit and secure the potentials are sent to the water not lost thru the secondary... if system is open the open lead of the transformer will get all the high voltage while the connected lead very small...

Balance is the way.... if not balanced the amp restriction cannot happen completely.... which happens only when high voltage or correct coefficient of voltage is present.. voltage is according to meyer being applied 90" ahead of current...  this lag comes mainly from the chokes and amp restriction ckt

The resonant charging chokes seems to be keeping the charge on the water during the reversing (here it frequency doubles for real).. The higher is the charge in water the higher is the collapsing voltage...

regarding conditioning i believe is not the case you just need plain clean polished stainless steel lowest area as possible
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2015, 23:19:16 pm
Water being polar can absorb radiant energy to increase the capacitor gap increasing voltage which in theory if is large enough you can use to increase the voltage really high , it would explain why conditioning the tubes gets you better results except the larger surface area which would also increase current. The electrolyte solution is the ground in this case. Pure water is the dielectric , the electrodes are Metal+ | negative ions and positive ions| Metal- . This double layer effect happens with all electrolysis cells but water and other solvents can rearrange themselves given the circumstances and the electrode surface you can try nafion or to condition your tubes you can try for yourself get a camera with zoom and a container with a window  put dye in ionized water and measure the formed gap. I haven't tested it yet.

"Conditioning the tubes" increases their capacitance because the oxides end up having a higher dielectric value than water. It also screws up your resonance values and impedances.  If this was what Meyers intended I'm pretty sure he would have made mention of it in his patent. I'm quite certain this isn't right.  There should be no electrolyte in a Meyers cell.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 00:28:13 am
I will again emphasize that the tuning of the gate pulse is of huge importance in getting the step charge effect on the WFC to work.  If not tuned correctly it can appear as a flat pulse or a descending charge instead of ascending.  When the gate is set properly, the resonance charge should apply voltages in the hundreds or even thousands of volts against the WFC as a step charge.

It seems that the slower the gate pulse, the higher the potential charges and step up hitting the cell.

Also, the higher the resistance that appears across the cell, the higher the charge on the cell will become.  I am simulating with values across the cell ranging between 1k to 10k.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 00:47:26 am
Post to mark becoming a Sr. Member.   Woohoo!
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 01:06:24 am
Ok maybe youre right will have to make some experiments.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 12:51:16 pm
Meyer said that Stainless steel is chosen to keep out the chemical reaction so the lower is the area of the electrode the lower is the capacitance and so lower the chemical reaction (current)....

before experimenting you should know what you are doing.... the voltages to be reached are going to kill yourself if proper care is not taken.

If you don't know what you are doing, and just try to copy stan or others, the chance to discover it may be 1 in one trillion... of course coincidences can happen....

The main problem is that we fell lost not knowing what should happen inside the cell... Than the lack of physics and electrical engineering basic fundamentals also won't help and cause an even greater confusion....

I can help you saying coils are coils capacitors are capacitors.... potential is potential.... potential difference is another thing....

I think i figured the meaning of voltage bounce effect or electron bounce... Its the ability of the charging choke to balance the potential being applied sometimes making the potential jump from one value to another... basically meyer named it this way because the current on one end of the coil become different than on the other... so it just bounce the potential to somewhere else in the ckt ... (thats related to the capacitance charging effect)

the electron inhibiting effect is accomplished with the other coil being in series...


Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 14:33:26 pm
Post to mark becoming a Sr. Member.   Woohoo!
If you want another specific title, just let me know.
GENERAL , MARSHALL,KING, QUEEN, PRESIDENT...... ;-)
Well done, btw, TS  :)

Steve
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 14:51:40 pm
There are so many things going on in the VIC despite there only being a handful components to it.  I am still coming to recognize new actions in it.  I am going to try to make a slideshow showing each component.  But here is what I know so far.

1.  Normally a transformer transforms power according to its winding ratio.  But the other physical properties of coils cannot be ignored and they also apply to transformers.

2.  Assuming point 1, we know we are trying to limit current in the VIC.

3.  Also assuming point 1, we know we are trying to achieve a high voltage on the VIC.

4.  Assuming point 2, two coils in the VIC can be set up to oppose each other to halt main current flow in the VIC.  This will not completely stop current flow with other components but definitely slow it down.

5.  Assuming point 4, since current flow is near possible due to restriction in point 4, applying a step up voltage on a transformer to the VIC, such as 5kHz will not do anything to the restricted current flow.  Each pulse will just add to the magnetic field on the transformer core and leak some current out with each pulse since the current is being maintained due to what we know about coils in point 1.  This will appear on a scope as a stepped up current, not stepped up voltage, at this stage.  We are assuming the gate pulse has not been applied yet.

6.  Assuming point 1, we know that when the applied voltage on the primary side of the transformer is stopped that the coil is going to want to induce a voltage high enough to continue current flow and we can calculate the required induced voltage to do this.  Due to current restriction and high impedance on the secondary circuit it will be very high, in the range of thousands of volts.  Since the coil that is coupled to the primary has higher windings, it will experience an exponential step up and could be in the hundreds of thousands of volts depending on the resistance it must overcome from what we know in point 4.

7.  Since we know point 6, we can assume that if we kept turning point 5 on and off we can repeat step 6 over and over again.  In essence, the gate pulse.

8.  If we tune step 7 correctly, we can then get a step up charge on a specific component that has been placed in the secondary circuit, such as the WFC.

9.  If step 8 has a resistance value, the amount of charge that can be measured will be lower relative to the value of the resistance.  How high that value is is also dependant on how well the coils are tuned and gating of point 6 is tuned. However, this doesn't change the fact that step 8 is still being hit by potentially hundreds of thousands of volts.

10.  Now, what if we got step 7 going as a second resonant frequency?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 15:04:08 pm
Post to mark becoming a Sr. Member.   Woohoo!
If you want another specific title, just let me know.
GENERAL , MARSHALL,KING, QUEEN, PRESIDENT...... ;-)
Well done, btw, TS  :)

Steve

Q

:D

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 15:15:10 pm
could the isolated ground be a connection to ground between a  capacitor ?  it could be made big so it represent a reference ˜stable˜, bouncing but a reference...source and sink for electrons...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 15:33:36 pm
could the isolated ground be a connection to ground between a  capacitor ?  it could be made big so it represent a reference ˜stable˜, bouncing but a reference...source and sink for electrons...

Go back to your transmission line idea and you should be able to find your answer.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 17:27:05 pm
Actually i'm bouncing between theories... my head is shaking... however almost ready for testing... just hooked up the vic coils and diodes and cells as required...

Well TS thats not a good answer...  8) hehe

what do you mean?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 17:35:41 pm
Actually i'm bouncing between theories... my head is shaking... however almost ready for testing... just hooked up the vic coils and diodes and cells as required...

Well TS thats not a good answer...  8) hehe

Yah I agree.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 17:42:19 pm
could the isolated ground be a connection to ground between a  capacitor ?  it could be made big so it represent a reference ˜stable˜, bouncing but a reference...source and sink for electrons...

In actual answer, I don't think it really matters.  If you think of the reference in a centre tapped transformer, the "ground" in the VIC is kind of the same thing.  It doesn't need to be actually grounded.  It just acts as the reference ground for the other two branches of the circuit.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 17:42:26 pm
Actually i'm bouncing between theories... my head is shaking... however almost ready for testing... just hooked up the vic coils and diodes and cells as required...

Well TS thats not a good answer...  8) hehe

Yah I agree.

The idea was that grounding the potential sent to water will double....
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 18:14:17 pm
Hi Fabio and Ts,

I showed and discuss the vic last weekend with a very old and wise man. Its actually the man who interviewed  Meyer in the video i released some time ago.
He also gave me the Meyer documents which i shared here on the forum.
My friend is very technical.
When i showed him the core of the vic and the coil setup his came with a nice answer.
The thin flat core is capable to do the transforming up to high voltage but because it is thin, the core cannot provide a lot of power....read amps.....

We also hooked the cell different up. In Stans schematic it is betweeb the 2 chokes.
In our schematic the cell is in parallel with the first choke.......
Put that into yr simulators.
Andrei Puharich talked about ac electrolysis....

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 18:31:37 pm
I have two theories mainly steve... one say that the vic works to bring the potential up such like the electron must go up in a montain before jump but the higher it goes the stronger become the gravity ... where the cell must be connected in one way... that being because the inner electrode having a positive potential will have positive electric fields coming out of it disregard it is the negative electrode in the arrange

And another that actually we create two mountains where the electron need to go up but as it get on top it gets trapped and bounce elsewhere...


the main secretes for the cylinder types is how it is connected... how the vic is connected.... how its tuned... and what is happening....

if you can answer all this questions you are on the way...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2015, 19:23:28 pm
We also hooked the cell different up. In Stans schematic it is betweeb the 2 chokes.
In our schematic the cell is in parallel with the first choke.......
Put that into yr simulators.
Andrei Puharich talked about ac electrolysis....

Interesting thought about thin core.  Not sure it should really matter.  I'm thinking it may keep the impedances low on the coils but this can also be accomplished by smaller coils.

Also, Meyer did indicate that there are different ways to implement the VIC for those who were familiar with the art.  I have no doubt that there are other configurations that may work.  I may give it a shot in simulation but am continuing my real one in its current direction.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2015, 15:59:59 pm
So far i understood there are two ways of getting there... one applying high voltage low power and one applying lower voltage probably with higher output...

The point is this is two different systems they don't even look much the same disregarding the cell connections...

I think we need to split into there parts to get it right on the second method

input, transmission , and resonant inductor + cell

Now when the frequency of the cel+inductor is matched to the resonant 1/4 or ((1/4)+(1/2)*n) frequency of the line the voltage is amplified because the pulses are ordered..  frequency is doubled when the resonant inductor + cell collapse generating a pulse that travels back in the line, when it gets to the diode its reflected back to the cell because the diode only allow electric current in one direction, here another pulse comes summing creating the step charging effect ...

the intrinsic series inductance of the line also collapses amplifying voltage

the number of pulses is proportional to the wavelength and resonant frequency.

when impedance of the load = that of the line source there is no reflection... of course at resonance the impedance will not reach exactly zero... it can be a more positive number to allow accommodate to the contaminants on water.. frequency doubly occur any way since the resonant inductor is located between two cells forming a series resonant ckt..


theres still some magic about the cell connections and the tuning procedure..

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2015, 23:24:30 pm
i could be wrong but the next step in the meyer dream was injector system so i think that he was indeed generating gas on demand,....

so theres no to small pressure on the cell or little vaccum indeed... this way the air intake could go straight to the cell (butterfly valve) so the gas is mixed with air than goes to a bubbler and than goes to the engine... i think i would use a small electric turbine to than pressurize the gas before injecting to the engine...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2015, 01:30:45 am
i could be wrong but the next step in the meyer dream was injector system so i think that he was indeed generating gas on demand,....

so theres no to small pressure on the cell or little vaccum indeed... this way the air intake could go straight to the cell (butterfly valve) so the gas is mixed with air than goes to a bubbler and than goes to the engine... i think i would use a small electric turbine to than pressurize the gas before injecting to the engine...

Kind of off topic isn't it?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2015, 11:31:30 am
i wanted to mean that the gas is generated on demand, there is no need to worry about getting any reserve of gas probably even just using the resonant cell with no injectors..

and so we are talking about the vic this is what it should be its power output indication!

did you tried the frequency doubling?

simply put a coil between two cells and pulse it with a transformer thru a diode
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2015, 08:42:39 am
Here's a new tidbit to think about.

If you have the coils in the VIC opposing each other, what is the total inductance going to be?  For example, let's say choke L1 is 1.2H and the secondary on the same core is 1.4H and they are wired to oppose each other.  Their net inductance will be less than the two of them.  For me, although just subtracting the lesser from the greater didn't result in the actual inductance so I am assuming there is another factor involved such as mutual inductance.   At any rate, let's say that the net difference leaves us with 200mH.

200mH doesn't match up with a 1nF capacitor to give a frequency of  let's say 5kHz. So, the final choke, L2 needs to make up for the difference.   We need a total of 1.1H to make resonance at 5kHz.  So, L2 in this example would need to be 900mH to achieve proper resonance in this circuit.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2015, 16:25:27 pm
I am presently experimenting with inline resistors in the VIC.  While not desirable in the end result, it has amplified the resonant effect I have been getting and actually increased the RMS volts.  At resonance, the transformer sounds  like it is producing static and you will see higher peaks in the voltage waveform associated with this "static".  I believe this is where the step up is occuring.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2015, 16:45:13 pm
My experiments have shown that currents of even 8 milliamps may be sufficient to produce electrolysis. So obviously we need to have current less than this. The coils will continue producing a current that is induced in them by creating the necessary voltage to do so because this is the nature of coils.  Therefore the goal should not be to create resistance in the water. The goal should be to produce high resistance in the rest of the VIC while tuning appropriate reactance on the coils and WFC at the desired frequency.  The resistance of the rest of the VIC circuit at resonance should be higher than the resistance of the quality of the water being used.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2015, 11:32:46 am
I think the coils have only two possibilities... adding or subtracting... this give you a broad range of frequencies to play with...

of oourse adjusting the core we change the coeficient of inductance and resistance of the circuit....

how much gas do you get with this 8ma? here with up to 20ma i can't see anything... where are you reading this 8ma and how? what kind of meter?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2015, 17:16:37 pm
It's only a small steady steam.  It's also appearing on the connection points so I know it is still normal electrolysis.  I have a small analog ammeter inline with the cell that measures from 0 to 50mA.

Incidentally, using distilled water.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2015, 17:27:56 pm
Here's another perspective on the fields on the coils that has recently occurred to me; related to my post here:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2946.msg27337.html#msg27337
Quote
First off, let's look at the initial pulse on the primary core.  It will create a field on the core creating a potential difference across the L2 coil.   Now the one thing that they are not seeing is that this also creates a voltage potential across the L1 and secondary coils (which are in series) also at the same time since they are in parallel with L1.  This means that the voltage created on L2  will develop a field on the secondary core (which have L1 and the secondary connected in series) at the same time as L2 purely because of the voltage potential developing across L2.

The secondary and L1 coils on the secondary core behave almost like a transistor.  Once the voltage from the L2 on the primary core energizes and creates a voltage potential across the secondary/L1 the current from the collapsing primary core can now flow through these coils in the direction that the diode will allow.  This is because the field already exists from the applied voltage and the current is no longer needed to create the field.  BUT on the off pulse on L2, the field on the secondary core will be reluctant to collapse because of the way the coils are wired which opposes the fields collapse.  As such, the next voltage pulse from L2 only increases the field on the secondary core, maintaining a constant increasing step up voltage on this side of the WFC.

This is just a theoretical way to look at this.  I don't know for sure if it works this way.

However, the amount of current that will be able to flow through the secondary/L1 coils is dependent on 3 things:
1. The winding ratio between the 2 coils
2. The amount of current induced on the primary core.
3.  Any other resistance in the VIC that will restrict the current

Equation to solve for mutual inductance is LT = L1 + L2 ± 2M
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 02:18:33 am
when a coil start to become a trasmission line?

today ran many tests on my vic primary... i took away the diode across it..

when i add the L2 coil to the core open circuited its self resonance is 30khz if only half core is present (totally insert) or if the gap is superior to 16mm and goes down to 15khz with both halfs of the cores inserted...

when resonance is found a peak in current is observed 20ma or so more.. while the current remain 50ma for all freq range above 500hz ... very linear...

from what i could grasp from tl theory in that diagram the coils opposing each other connected serially acts as a shorted stub... so create a resonance freq by itself,,,
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 03:01:22 am
from  what i could grasp from tl theory in that diagram the coils opposing each other connected serially acts as a shorted stub... so create a resonance freq by itself,,,
Use an inductance meter to measure the coils in series opposing each other and see what you get.  Then measure them separately and then with all the coils.  Remove the diode or you won't get a proper reading.

Then calculate your resonant frequency and your cap value to get the calculated inductance at resonance.   See if it matches any of your measured values.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 09:20:51 am
ts meyer says the water is a resistor for the vic... not necessarily must be at resonance...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 10:50:26 am
ts meyer says the water is a resistor for the vic... not necessarily must be at resonance...

Meyers does refer to the WFC as a cap and does refer to resistance is at its highest at resonance and the VIC as an RLC circuit.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 10:58:55 am
ts meyer says the water is a resistor for the vic... not necessarily must be at resonance...

Meyers does refer to the WFC as a cap and does refer to resistance is at its highest at resonance and the VIC as an RLC circuit.

he also say say that the wiper arm fine tunes to the dielectric proprieties of water,, i think by that makes reference to adjusting the impedance... the lower the resistance the lower will be the voltage due to current on the cell.... however as high voltages are present i'm presuming the cells will have high voltage across it as a consequence of that . but not only that ...

i think the resonant cavity determine the base wavelength the system must resonate and thereafter the chokes and coils must be arranged to match such operation...

what i mean is that the resonant frequency is not a simple value... it has some basic factors that determines its frequency but i guess we are far from an equation or something like that. i'm reading on some books and on the books its written that this is a kind of art to create this kind of lines with coils...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 12:36:40 pm
ts meyer says the water is a resistor for the vic... not necessarily must be at resonance...

Meyers does refer to the WFC as a cap and does refer to resistance is at its highest at resonance and the VIC as an RLC circuit.

he also say say that the wiper arm fine tunes to the dielectric proprieties of water,, i think by that makes reference to adjusting the impedance... the lower the resistance the lower will be the voltage due to current on the cell.... however as high voltages are present i'm presuming the cells will have high voltage across it as a consequence of that . but not only that ...

i think the resonant cavity determine the base wavelength the system must resonate and thereafter the chokes and coils must be arranged to match such operation...

what i mean is that the resonant frequency is not a simple value... it has some basic factors that determines its frequency but i guess we are far from an equation or something like that. i'm reading on some books and on the books its written that this is a kind of art to create this kind of lines with coils...
Frankly, I think you're over complicating it.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2015, 16:12:33 pm
well i'm simulating it all and i find that if i match some specific requirements i can get the high voltage... the thing is its pretty easy to get high voltage but you need some amps to make it,,, but there is another way to get high voltage resonance but with no power dissipation aka undamped waves as tesla first said.. the system does not consume power.. because its not current pulses but voltage pulses.. do you know what i mean?


its possible to do with also capacitors and coils.. . i think its worth the shot,,
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2015, 03:51:28 am
What i think you don't see is that although a transmission line can have functionalities close related to lumped components... when the wave travels thru distributed parameters it can be undamped so far i understood... maybe i got it wrong and indeed there is a dissipation and thereto damping.. well i'm not sure...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2015, 04:16:50 am
I have the felling that this coils has so much capacitance that the ringing impede the high voltage to grow...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2015, 04:39:55 am
I have the felling that this coils has so much capacitance that the ringing impede the high voltage to grow...

I think I just burned out my one of my coils with a voltage surge.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2015, 05:45:27 am
that is sad, i know how much work it takes to get them done...

i hardly see any high voltage with those coils...

i know how to do hig voltages but using low turns.... not this way

wouldn't it be thats why the so called resistance of the coils i mean the stainless steel wire .. after all meyer wrote in the tech doc that its used to prevent ringing and maintain signal stability...
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2015, 06:23:04 am
that is sad, i know how much work it takes to get them done...

i hardly see any high voltage with those coils...

i know how to do hig voltages but using low turns.... not this way

wouldn't it be thats why the so called resistance of the coils i mean the stainless steel wire .. after all meyer wrote in the tech doc that its used to prevent ringing and maintain signal stability...

The high voltage spikes work just as I describe them throughout this topic.

So far all the coils are checking out. It's really weird though because all of a sudden the entire circuit is behaving differently now even though everything is checking out so far.

I'll have to do some more digging tomorrow.

Incidentally, I just used a drill and a spool to wind these coils.  I'm done with the slow tedious method.   I wound all my coils in about 10 mins, except for the L2 because I had to make it variable.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2015, 14:50:53 pm
Looks more like I blew out a bunch of diodes....
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2015, 03:21:34 am
This is the wave form we are looking for is it not?

I'm presently working with 1kV to 2kV peaks with very little current.

I am presently running with a resonant frequency around 6.8kHz and a very low gate pulse, probably around 30Hz.  Duty cycle on the primary frequency is high.  Duty cycle on the gate frequency is low.   You can see the frequency doubling in the pic as it shows 18kHz.  The voltage doubling is also present.

Obviously, these frequencies are setup specific.

I'm not happy with the step up as it drops two steps before each step up.  Seems to be related to the output of one of the PWMs.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2015, 14:32:25 pm
How did you measure TS? Over the cell, or coils included?
And did you see already more gas?


Steve
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2015, 14:41:48 pm
How did you measure TS? Over the cell, or coils included?
And did you see already more gas?


Steve

Over cell and coil coupled to primary.   No gas yet.  Still perfecting the wave form and voltage intensity.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2015, 01:11:21 am
In short, I have come to a reasonable certainty that Tony's VIC circuit as is is not capable of working correctly to charge the water cell.

Also from my experiences with my PWMs and my observation and studying the 4046 chip, I believe that using the 4046 as the main frequency driver is not suitable and will never produce the desired result. 

Alternatively, there is a problem with my copy of the circuit that I haven't yet been able to determine.

However, I will also not pretend that I have high experience  or am an expert using 4046 or circuit design.  I could be wrong.  I am just commenting about my experience and conclusions up to this point.

I have turned instead to the boards being provided by Ronnie Walker and Neal Ward at http://www.stanmeyerreplications.net and will start testing with them this weekend.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2015, 14:09:40 pm
In short, I have come to a reasonable certainty that Tony's VIC circuit as is is not capable of working correctly to charge the water cell.

Also from my experiences with my PWMs and my observation and studying the 4046 chip, I believe that using the 4046 as the main frequency driver is not suitable and will never produce the desired result.

I have turned instead to the boards being provided by Ronnie Walker and Neal Ward at http://www.stanmeyerreplications.net and will start testing with them this weekend.

good luck this weekend TS

cheers
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 27, 2015, 05:21:04 am
Haven't gotten to actual testing yet.  Assembled most components and waiting for some more to come on Tuesday.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2015, 18:47:22 pm
First pic of sperm wave of resonance signal using RWalker and Neal Ward circuits.

Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 30, 2015, 22:08:18 pm
WFC improvements.  Sealed outer tubes in industrial electrical shrink tubing.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2015, 00:05:52 am
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2615.0.html
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2015, 12:01:17 pm
First pic of sperm wave of resonance signal using RWalker and Neal Ward circuits.

So you like the board of Ron and Neal. Good to hear  :)
Nice pic btw..
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2015, 14:09:20 pm
First pic of sperm wave of resonance signal using RWalker and Neal Ward circuits.

So you like the board of Ron and Neal. Good to hear  :)
Nice pic btw..

Well, it appears to work.  Still trying to work out some glitches that appear related to a power issue.  Having undesirable spikes that I can't seem to get rid of.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2015, 16:23:29 pm
I'd like to inspire some thinking on a couple subjects.

1.  Polarization.  What visible indicators do you suppose there would be during the electrical polarization process?

2.  The capacitance range of the water cell.  What do you suppose it ultimately should be?

I believe I have some information pertaining to both.  However, I want to see what conversation this sparks.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2015, 23:31:37 pm
i have saw a strange effect of water coming out of the cell with no bubbles it apear like a shadow like  when in very hot day you look at the highaway and it distorts...

i think it was polarized water... changing the light direction... could simply be hot water... 
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2015, 23:37:37 pm
What do we know happens when we put a current through water?  We get gas.  What if we have a bunch of cells in series.  We need enough voltage to cross all the cells and then we get gas.  What if we have the voltage but not the current? 

Think about what we already know about electrolysis.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 01:43:35 am
I'll give another hint.  Electricity follows the path of least resistance.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 05:09:45 am
What do we know happens when we put a current through water?  We get gas.  What if we have a bunch of cells in series.  We need enough voltage to cross all the cells and then we get gas.  What if we have the voltage but not the current? 

Think about what we already know about electrolysis.

generally with only voltage without the current you have.... no gas.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 09:53:49 am
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 13:23:42 pm
What do we know happens when we put a current through water?  We get gas.  What if we have a bunch of cells in series.  We need enough voltage to cross all the cells and then we get gas.  What if we have the voltage but not the current? 

Think about what we already know about electrolysis.

generally with only voltage without the current you have.... no gas.

 Thank you.  Theres the start.

What do you have instead?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 13:25:46 pm
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?

Excellent!  We have leakage!

With minimal to nearly no current, where will the leakage appear?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 18:06:07 pm
What might happen if you hit the two electrodes with a high voltage spike?

Basically, a current MUST flow, otherwise no hv spike!

Same with charging a capacitor
The real question is how short that burst aka voltage peak and current flow needs to be and what to do after that burst.
I think Meyer states to extract the feeded electrons together with the freed electrons using the eec....

I don't follow this.  You can have a high voltage charge with no current flowing.  Not sure how it applies to my questions either.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2015, 18:08:19 pm
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?

Excellent!  We have leakage!

With minimal to nearly no current, where will the leakage appear?

If you have a number of cells in series, will the leakage not start appearing first as bubbles on the tubes that have direct connections to the coils?  This being the shortest and least resistive route?  But even further question, is this what we want?  I'd have to say no.  We want to force this charge through the cells in series.  So, the cells need to be as isolated from each other as reasonably possible.  With the charge evenly distributed, wouldn't we have a greater chance of building up the necessary reaction we need in the "polarization process"?
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2015, 01:44:33 am
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?

Excellent!  We have leakage!

With minimal to nearly no current, where will the leakage appear?

If you have a number of cells in series, will the leakage not start appearing first as bubbles on the tubes that have direct connections to the coils?  This being the shortest and least resistive route?  But even further question, is this what we want?  I'd have to say no.  We want to force this charge through the cells in series.  So, the cells need to be as isolated from each other as reasonably possible.  With the charge evenly distributed, wouldn't we have a greater chance of building up the necessary reaction we need in the "polarization process"?

I like this simple discussion....
The " polarization process ".... ill have to dig up the reading material and have a fresh look at the his writings.My head from past reading is  still leaning on the notion the polarization process is refering  to the applied  pulse riding on top of the positive DC offset matching the changed timeshare ratio ultimately seperating the io....I really want my head to have a clear and fresh understanding...there still seems to be a missing part from the scope shots ive seen of replicated waveforms....in the patent Seb challenged to find a missing part I see Stan showing a positive smaller pulse voltage inbetween the step charging effect,is this a DC offset voltage or what... there must be some constant DC voltage and I can not find reference to it.
Id like to read your understanding of the polarization process to take a stab at your last question.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2015, 04:41:15 am
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?

Excellent!  We have leakage!

With minimal to nearly no current, where will the leakage appear?

If you have a number of cells in series, will the leakage not start appearing first as bubbles on the tubes that have direct connections to the coils?  This being the shortest and least resistive route?  But even further question, is this what we want?  I'd have to say no.  We want to force this charge through the cells in series.  So, the cells need to be as isolated from each other as reasonably possible.  With the charge evenly distributed, wouldn't we have a greater chance of building up the necessary reaction we need in the "polarization process"?

I like this simple discussion....
The " polarization process ".... ill have to dig up the reading material and have a fresh look at the his writings.My head from past reading is  still leaning on the notion the polarization process is refering  to the applied  pulse riding on top of the positive DC offset matching the changed timeshare ratio ultimately seperating the io....I really want my head to have a clear and fresh understanding...there still seems to be a missing part from the scope shots ive seen of replicated waveforms....in the patent Seb challenged to find a missing part I see Stan showing a positive smaller pulse voltage inbetween the step charging effect,is this a DC offset voltage or what... there must be some constant DC voltage and I can not find reference to it.
Id like to read your understanding of the polarization process to take a stab at your last question.

I think a lot of this stuff is being way over complicated.  I have successfully achieved the correct wave form a few times now with coils that are properly in the zone.  I say in the zone as they are not tuned in yet.  You cannot change the laws of physics.  Basic electrical theory still applies and should be kept in mind.  The simplest laws can explain a great deal.  A lot of the time we seem to be looking for some sort of magic, but ultimately we are just not properly looking at all the elemental effects of physics.

Back to basics.  What are we polarizing.  Isn't it the water?  What does it mean to polarize the water?  It gets aligned with the electric fields.  What happens when it is fully polarized?  How long does it take to polarize?  These are the next questions.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2015, 05:09:09 am
well electrolysis is one step... dc forces the ions to flow...and at the electrodes they lose and gain electrons... theoretically the negative will get closer to the positive electrode when it arrive there its charge has to flow thru the source to get the other side and discharge the oposite ion. this consume the power...

if you could get the negative ion close to the positive electrode without enough voltage why would it not discharge to it?

if we short the capacitor why would it stop generating?

Ill take a stab at those 2: correct my errors please...

I think you will see all charged ions will eventually discharge...there probably wont be any gas generated but the voltage will bleed off...

I think if shorting the capacitor stops it generating it has no voltage applied to generate....
I like  reading the guys that can go all scientific with explanations too but no one else replied yet :)
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2015, 05:30:30 am
What RMS voltage is required for the polarization process?

I will tell you.  Perhaps you remember those who do electrolysis with electrolyte and neutral plates.  They put enough neutral plates between the positive and negative to divide the voltage enough to still cause electrolysis but keep voltage down to reduce heat.  I believe, without checking, that it ended up being about 1.47V minimum to achieve electrolysis between two electrodes.

The same principle applies to the cells in series.  The number of cells times the 1.47V (or whatever it is) should dictate the minimum RMS voltage to polarize the water and eventually create the gas.  The only difference is that we are doing it with a resonant wave form and opposing coils to restrict the current.  We then will use high voltage pulses rather than current to do the work.  Higher voltages will perform more work, but my theory says the minimum RMS voltage will be based on the number of cells you have in series.
Title: Re: How the VIC Works - Induced DC Current Voltage
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2015, 05:35:05 am
The capacitance range.

The capacitance range will dictate your frequency range.  The capacitance range will be between your cells capacitance without water (ei. 10pF) up to your cells capacitance with water (ei. 600pF).  Since the coils will have a static inductance, your frequency range should end up being between sub 1kHz when the cell isn't producing hho up to 10kHz or higher when it is as there will be significant air pockets in the tubes when it is producing hho.