Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on March 13, 2014, 05:05:01 am

Title: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2014, 05:05:01 am
I just had another idea.... Maybe the best i ever had

what if i take a plastic tube and coil it together with copper wire (primary coil) ... the terminations of the plastic tube has a stainless steel tube electrical connection in contact with water. this is for creation of the contact points to extract the electric current from water...

Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2014, 16:22:36 pm
Since theres no polarization there no loss in the electrolysis, its just limited by the diffusion ad availability of ions to transport.

I proposing the opposite of an over voltage... the creation of an internal voltage at the electrolyte and that discharging this energy makes the gas come off.

Of course if you apply this energy back to the resonant system you can maintain high energy recirculating and regenerating...

I guess this is the idea behind the EEC operation. 

The idea is that it becomes a restricted current voltage source.

The idea is that the water receive the most of the magnetic induction and not the usual coils of copper that receives the induction and apply only the electric field in the water. This time there is electromagnetic field in the water...

the movement of the ions is going to depend on the electromagnetic field and the density of the liquid too not only its mass..

Actually as the ions has different mass and sizes it should also create a pressure in one direction ( a pumping effect)

Title: The water coil particle accelerator
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 06:18:54 am
Many new discoveries !!!

 I bought about 10 meters of plastic tube and coiled it around 25 turns the coil has around 20cm of diameter x 7cm, it now has 3 CC cores on it and it fill all the window...  each core having 10 turns of copper that works as primary... each primary has its own transistor and snubber circuit but they all activate and cut all at the same time..

I found analyzing it that it becomes a kind of particle accelerator... And by accident i found a final solution to get very high intensity pulses of high voltage...

the solution is to use many cores such that each has a primary like described above and their secondaries are connected in series... this way the primary kick back is going to remain controlled while the secondary voltages are summed. so its better to use separate cores if we meant to get into very high voltage...

I was thinking about if we could get a solutions with ions that has its own magnetic field than as they are accelerated they could cause induction in perpendicular direction...

This could be the principle behind the EPG too...

(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2858.0;attach=13372;image)
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 07:33:46 am
the secondary is the water?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 07:36:22 am
the secondary is the water?

Yes.. the idea is to create the voltage inside water not inside copper....

Another stuff that i'm looking into is terbium and dysprosium by their extremely high magnetic proprieties

Other solution for the EPG that i though is ferric chloride ( that acid used for fabricating printed circuit boards)

Did anyone tried getting this chemicals into the EPG?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 19:41:34 pm
something like this?  ;D

μ1>μ2
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 19:56:36 pm
More like this:
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2858.0;attach=13376;image)
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2014, 20:19:39 pm
its not what I meant.. anyways why is the tube plastic and in epg its copper?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2014, 04:12:42 am
this is for testing the principle...  after i'm going to test also the copper tube and iron tube versions....

Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2014, 03:53:01 am
I guess the guests can't see the images is it correct?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2014, 16:59:01 pm
I could really appreciate some discussion...
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2014, 19:58:52 pm
today I rethink the use of the electrons in comparison with the capacitor ground array I was telling you
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2014, 21:52:59 pm
today I rethink the use of the electrons in comparison with the capacitor ground array I was telling you

what conclusion did you took from that?
Title: Cheers to the invisible connections
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2014, 22:03:06 pm
My test system is going to use only one core initially, the primary has 20 turns the snubber winding has 4 turns,,, and the water tube forms around 25 turns...

i'm going to pulse with up to 100 volts and the snubber winding limits the collapsing voltage to 500v

Electrolysis is a reaction that has a counter voltage associated to it in such manner that it consume a lot of power, if then a potential is developed inside the water in another manner the ions would have no opposing force to get discharged working like a fuel cell but in a forced manner...

The electric field associated is around 50v/m during the collapse of the magnetic field . so the current density should be up to 50 v/meter divided by the conductivity of the medium,,,,   

Title: paralleling primary coils or independently pulse?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 06:45:50 am
I think that paralleling the primary coils is possible to use the three cores but the snubber is going to receive a very strong back pulse since now there are 3 transformers so also 3 snubbers in parallel.

I think is easier than creating 3 independent circuits... i guess the toroidal coil that i'm going to wind over the tube can be separated into 3 sections and than pulsed with 3 phase...

The greater the number of cores the greater is going to be the voltage induced. Of course if paralleling the primaries...

I think that if the tube could be thinner more voltage could be reached.. The electric fields however stay the same.... 

I insist and would like you to tell to me what you think about it ?

Draw a cell lets say electrode A is positive, and electrode B is negative. 2 v is supplied to it, the cell immediately get charged and current start to flow. The dielectric proprieties of water the dipole orientation is such that the oxygen points towards the A electrode and the hydrogen points towards the negative electrode. In such a manner as to reduce the electric field 81 times allowing proportionally more charge to be accumulated over the electrodes. The ions of opposite polarity get attracted to the electrodes and start to discharge at the electrode. The capacitance however and action as a fuel cell limits the operation since for each electron you want to add to the system you must provide some 1,45volts worth of joules to it (depending on electrode material) so actually the energy you are inputing to let current flow is 0,55v.

In the case im proposing the potential is provided directly to the water not thru the electrodes but the electrodes are just a mean for extracting the electric current from water so the efficiency of the electric field applied is 100% and so as now the internal 1,45 volts sums with the 100% efficient electric field you get a source of electric energy that never was thought to be possible. (if it works) 

Thinking about horvath patents had coils inside the cell and now i guess i understand why.
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 07:33:34 am
I conclude that the electrons maybe can produce more work that W=qV ... when you give energy to a radial capacitor and move electrons to the inner plate with the outer plate disconnected you don't give all the energy you can take back when you connect the outer to ground.. when you have a battery you have two poles negative and positive that are limited by the oxireduction potential of the cells where energy consumed is related to I^2R...

how can you reuse the electrons inside you cell?  the kickback moves the electrons with a higher potential they have more kinetic energy but the current is the same?...for electrolysis you also need current to flow..
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 09:19:34 am
i'm saying that the cell if short circuited the current flow is going to depend mostly on the resistance of the circuit and the ions availability on water...

Contrary to electrolysis where the potential reduces the original dc applied, in this case, it sums... do you agree?
Title: Re: paralleling primary coils or independently pulse?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 11:39:14 am
I think that paralleling the primary coils is possible to use the three cores but the snubber is going to receive a very strong back pulse since now there are 3 transformers so also 3 snubbers in parallel.

I think is easier than creating 3 independent circuits... i guess the toroidal coil that i'm going to wind over the tube can be separated into 3 sections and than pulsed with 3 phase...

The greater the number of cores the greater is going to be the voltage induced. Of course if paralleling the primaries...

I think that if the tube could be thinner more voltage could be reached.. The electric fields however stay the same.... 

I insist and would like you to tell to me what you think about it ?

Draw a cell lets say electrode A is positive, and electrode B is negative. 2 v is supplied to it, the cell immediately get charged and current start to flow. The dielectric proprieties of water the dipole orientation is such that the oxygen points towards the A electrode and the hydrogen points towards the negative electrode. In such a manner as to reduce the electric field 81 times allowing proportionally more charge to be accumulated over the electrodes. The ions of opposite polarity get attracted to the electrodes and start to discharge at the electrode. The capacitance however and action as a fuel cell limits the operation since for each electron you want to add to the system you must provide some 1,45volts worth of joules to it (depending on electrode material) so actually the energy you are inputing to let current flow is 0,55v.

In the case im proposing the potential is provided directly to the water not thru the electrodes but the electrodes are just a mean for extracting the electric current from water so the efficiency of the electric field applied is 100% and so as now the internal 1,45 volts sums with the 100% efficient electric field you get a source of electric energy that never was thought to be possible. (if it works) 

Thinking about horvath patents had coils inside the cell and now i guess i understand why.

Horvarth had a coil for creating RF and magnetic fields.
Hydrogen atoms react on strong magnetic fields.
He also used a spark for EM radiation...

Its a bit similar as Herman Anderson...
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 14:46:32 pm
Yes i think that too, but theres a place in the patent where he says that the transformer will output 300v  20 amps while he needs only a dc source with 12v 40 amps to drive it...

I'm not sure but i guess the fields on the water may create some effects..
Title: Almost ready!
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 14:54:49 pm
My system is full of water and almost ready for testing...

I soldered all the primary and snubbers in parallel.. and connected to my circuit ...

To fill the tube without bubbles i had to drop one side of the tube to a water reservoir and suck the water from the other side up to the water get to the end of the tube than let some water drop to a lower hight than the reservoir level creating a flow by gravity potential (level) difference.

 I cut a piece of copper tube 3/8 to join another piece of plastic tube but i soldered a piece of wire to its center too for getting an electrical connection on the water for measuring purposes.

Title: charging a capacitor by applying to it the voltage field 90 º ahead of current
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 16:22:07 pm
Wow i just thought of something!

what is the meaning of charging  a capacitor by applying to it the voltage field 90 degrees ahead of current? is it possible to achieve this applying voltage to plates? of course not.. otherwise the current is ahead of voltage and will ever be


It means to apply a electric field to the dielectric and than connect the capacitor leads short circuited to allow the charges to actually flow and let the capacitor get charged.

I don't see any other way of doing it other than the manner i proposed using induction. The invisible connection...

o course mechanically could be achieved too, but the power consumption could be greater...
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2014, 20:52:20 pm
the radial capacitors(water cell) meyer used must have been for a reason.. think of the charges and a hollow conductor... the charges rearrange themselves, I don't think meyer has hidden something only that no one has found what he used .. in the alternator patent everything was crystal clear... anybody can understand how it works.. :P
if you charge the inside cylinder positively the outer side of the outer cylinder is also positive, if you connect this outer side to the water the electrons to form the capacitor must come from the water , when you charged the inside cylinder you don't give the energy needed to extract electrons from water...now capacitance is formed between the cylinders and energy is the same as the energy to charge the inside cylinder, there is no displacement current when the outer cylinder is disconnected...energy is conserved when the outer cylinder is connected to ground while the inside is charged only..
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2014, 04:11:30 am
Geon meyer certainly hidden things. thats for sure. He would not give anyone any chance to get close enough to his system to see it and understand it.

Meyer clearly stated the solution is to generate energy from water otherwise the system won't run..

he clearly stated that he used multiple system thereto not contained into a single patent.

he also clearly says that water become the electron source to power the system ...  but would not tell where those 100 amps 100 volts were from.

he clearly states that he uses a pulse voltage wave form to get into resonant action to achieve gas on demand

he deliberately use the choke word to tell you he was mixing DC and pulsed voltage to achieve the pulsing wave form.

He stated that stainless steel was enough and that means that probable platinum is not required.

He explains many things in a manner that is possible to "understand" what he says but he never really explain how he really do the thing.

I believe he mixed many concepts thru the patents to try to confuse anyone trying to follow them. Thats why i took the opposite way. I decided to understand whats happening in there and design the circuit based on my assumptions of what is required for that to happen. Of course i always do a matching follow up research in my brain to try to find the similarities it can have to meyer design and where and why he might have hidden things...  but i don't limit myself there.

 I guess the idea now is to construct all the recent ideas i had. to see why they won't work and learn more from there.

He clearly states that he applies the voltage ahead of current this can be only done with induction! who agree with that?

There are of course other opinions many people have fight many threads because of my crazy ideas about meyer being a lier hehe but i really believe he was not stupid at all to even mention the very secret part required for it to work. He could even done that but in a manner to not attract attention to it just to play around but as he was really serious person i doubt he ever mentioned it.

Geon you forget that you charge the inner plate but the outer plate also the water inside and outside all the way to ground get polarized because i'm assuming you are charging relative to ground. The potential at the inner electrode is going to be higher than the potential at the outer electrode so theres a diference of potential in such a way that if you actually connect a wire between the inner and outer capacitor the charges in the inner capacitor want to go to the outer capacitor, so is a situation  that is going to reach equilibrium somewhere. well i tried applying high voltage in many ways to the water and never got higher than 1000 volts... so i think that meyer was talking about something else.

Again in your situation lets assume  you got water between those eletcrodes than you get the following situation the negative ions get attracted to the positive charge plate, the positive ions in turn get repelled from it, if you connects the wire the electrons cannot flow because the positive zone attracts the electrons inside the wire too and probably more than it attract the electrons from water, and nothing should happen... 

Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2014, 07:39:30 am
Or....maybe meyer ment that the gas pressure was a great force that powerd or pushed his epg equipment.
Meaning, the gas pressure pushed his magnetic liquid metal core around....creating a moving magnetic field thru a lot of coils....
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2014, 07:43:47 am
good point steve

I just did the first tests... like aways it didn't work as predicted the induced voltage is very small actually the system capture very high induction from 60hz line...


the reason for not working can be many...
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2014, 07:48:00 am
Meyer talk about stainless steel is a requirement for it to happen lets guess why?

Corrosive environment needed, correct?

what else?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2014, 08:13:17 am
no wires needed the outer plate contacts water there's direct conduction... simple stainless steel should work...if the metal oxidizes there's no conduction after... only on the inside of ccapacitor a dielectric layer is needed to insulate, it would be goood if once the capacitor is formed there's a discharge with a spark to the outer plate.. if the gap is adjusted to breakdown only when voltage is increased , regular dielectrics when they breakdown they are done, maybe some dielectric that is immune to this effect like some oxides?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2014, 14:06:37 pm
Geon what are your ideas about the thing i'm proposing here?

Lets create a nice thread with a nice drawings for your idea too. i learned in the university that you make a drawing and you can understand the thing lot better and think about the problem in a better manner.

How about the 300 reads? almost no comments? how is that?

Please you should help here too not just reading only but replying and discussing, questioning, this way it can get better.. and well I alone can think a lot but reading from you your ideas and reactions is possible to we create lot more in less time.

I'm going to add stainless steel fittings to the tubes ends to get the electrical connections and try again....  i will also try to get the tube a little smaller after its out the region of high magnetic field of the transformer...

Title: Acid, Base or Neutral
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2014, 15:59:31 pm
Its known that the mechanism of conduction in electrolytes depends on the electrolyte PH .. . 

For example an acid solution has more H+ ions than OH- ions thereto only the ion H+ has to travel the electrolyte to discharge ...

If its neutral both ions are responsible for conduction.

And if its Basic environment Oh- ions are greater number thereto due to their size and mass the ionic mobility or conduction should be less than in the neutral case and the acid case.

If we want to act on the electrons of the molecules the greater is the molecule the easier should be to take an electron out of it because the difference in acceleration...

My question is if the ions of conduction are only Oh- on the mechanism what should it be exactly?

Other question how about the positive H+ ion situation?

I remember that ion the case of sodium hydroxide the sodium can't get out of water thereto after its ion discharge it ionize another molecule to keep in solution state.

Title: Faraday second law of electrolysis
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2014, 16:07:37 pm
Second law of electrolysis
Faraday discovered that when the same amount of electricity is passed through different electrolytes/elements connected in series, the mass of substance liberated/deposited at the electrodes is directly proportional to their equivalent weights.
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2014, 21:12:52 pm
this comes from the conservation of mass doesnt it? the thing is that with faraday you can't make hydrogen with low energy cost..

the idea I propose is that outside the capacitor on it's surface conduction is possible, after charges have been induced on it's surface and if the electric field is high enough electrons can be dislodged from H2O molecules forming hydrons H+ and the capacitor is then formed... the question is if half of the total charges on the outer cylinder are moved in order to have the outside charges the same charge as the inside cylinder then only half of the displacement current has been given... because only half of the charges are moved..... the other comes from anything that gives or takes electrons... if you leave the circuit connected then energy is conserved .. because displacement current is the only way capacitors can conserve energy. not all circuits are closed.. when current flow in an open circuit maxwell's law are broken.
Title: Dangerous experiments potentially hazardous
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 24, 2014, 09:55:36 am
Be aware that the experiments i proposed here has chemicals and high voltage used to it that are at dangerous levels and thereto these experiments should be realized only by qualified person with all the security necessary, so if you plan to do it yourself, do it on your own risk i cannot assume any responsibility for the results good bad or dangerous.

I'm saying this because is very easy to get hurt and i aways get, but i'm responsible for my acts.

I'm saying that the readers are stupid but everyone can mistake sometimes. 

Today i got a situation where the acid could have drop and burned me and my gear and i had this feeling of danger thought.
Title: Very impressive results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 07:45:12 am
Very good results...

I could determine that the water indeed receive the induction and voltage can be measured at the electrodes. but if you add a load it just disappear and become few millivolts.

The induced voltage is higher than i thought i could reach up to 400v and beyond pulses using as little as 10v input.

I tried applying 180v to the water electrodes and no bubble was generated... i was using a solution of sodium hydroxide. unknown quantity,.. strangely the capacitors of my power supply started to burn at this point... The idea is that at one electrode there was going to be hydrogen and at the other pure oxygen.. no visible bubble at all...

Maybe the 10 meter of tube gives lots of resistance even if the water is conductive...

Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 11:14:40 am
Longer tubes gives less resistance,tried it.
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 12:40:43 pm
Longer tubes gives less resistance,tried it.

How long was yours? Which different setups did you tried? Did you used my diagram for non dissipative snubber? How many cores?

Would be nice if we all could do the experiments and could share results would it not? 

If i just could have more time i'm willing to make lots of experiments...

Regards
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 15:58:41 pm
I was refering to strait dc,tube were 20cm long.
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 18:57:33 pm
good luck with the experiments, in my setup a two coating system is needed for the inner cylinder one n-type one p-type to make a large diode and work like a polyfuse too... the source doesnt see the outer cylinder but the water as positive while the outer cylinder sees the inner cylinder as negative.. energy is stored in the capacitor device and because electrons from inner cylinder have done chemical work (electrolysis) the energy stored in the capacitor is over farady , ofcourse you need ns pulses and high voltage otherwise displacement current kicks in I suppose...and some way to discharge the capacitors to reuse this energy without thermal loss prob LC circuit..
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 21:27:18 pm
good luck with the experiments, in my setup a two coating system is needed for the inner cylinder one n-type one p-type to make a large diode and work like a polyfuse too... the source doesnt see the outer cylinder but the water as positive while the outer cylinder sees the inner cylinder as negative.. energy is stored in the capacitor device and because electrons from inner cylinder have done chemical work (electrolysis) the energy stored in the capacitor is extra I don't know if overunity but maybe over farady , ofcourse you need ns pulses and high voltage otherwise displacement current kicks in I suppose...and some way to discharge the capacitors to reuse this energy without thermal loss prob LC circuit..

Yes thats kind of close to he things i'm planning... two pairs of electrodes but i actually used diodes to direct the current in my diagrams... ideally the plates are coated with some catalyzer... well this are mine ideas to improve current.. this way the ions simply prefere to discharge than travel all the way to the tube so as the imbalance is corrected all the time the imbalance is not going to limit the current output of the generator part and help not create back magnetomotive force on the coil since the current is encouraged to travel thru the circuit generating power. Just like you described i also had this view that once half the ions discharges the others ions charge become available to be used as electricity. .
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2014, 23:39:07 pm
Longer tubes gives less resistance,tried it.

Adys15

I thought your talking about another thing... actually i guess we are not talking about the same thing... i'm talking about the length if the water in the plastic pipe having terminations at the ends of the pipes... ...

Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 28, 2014, 08:02:25 am
Adding a 1 kohm load the voltage waveform get distorted and drops to around 5 volts peak so the curet output is really small...

This tells me that the internal resistance still high. it can be determined ... around 79kohms according to mine calculation.. assuming the 400v peak having open circuit. even if the wave form get distorted and different ...

I'm going to construct a more practical device to be able to change the solutions more easily... 



What do you think about that?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 28, 2014, 09:04:09 am
can you measure the resistance with a dmm? I will try this idea of capacitor arrangement I told you once I get these stainless tubes...it seems like it's an LC resonance type of thing too. I need some heavy duty ultra fast ns diodes .. it's hard to find these locally.. anybody knows an online source?
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 29, 2014, 21:55:30 pm
Hey Geon, i guess you might want to try find a local seller for electronics... there might be one near... when i lived in italy i use to buy things from RScomponents you should try to find some similar place...  good luck


I could not determine the resistance yet but is a damn good idea!
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 29, 2014, 23:05:12 pm
as far as conductance pure water shouldnt have any.. if you want to make water even more insulating add sugar.. salt will make it a little conducting, if you want to make it very conducting you can form a colloidal solution of metal nanoparticles.. but that's too much trouble to do in order to make hydrogen..
Title: Re: The water coil
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 30, 2014, 09:39:52 am
anyone tried this?  you have to change the bifilar coil I made a mistake switch the ends...  ;D