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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dave on January 18, 2014, 21:46:44 pm

Title: Gas measurements math and technique
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 18, 2014, 21:46:44 pm
I see many people with 8xa and 9xa circuits producing gas who don't seem to be taking any measurements. The excuse is always "I need to improve on the circuit and its probably still just electrolysis". In order to move forward, gas measurements should be recorded and compared to a predict gas output by electrolysis.

Measuring the gas:

Some people are using flow meters and others use water displacement with a liter bottle. Flow meters are not designed for hho so using them might not be accurate and the small value of gas might present other limitations. Water displacement is the way to go. Whenever I've measure various gas production from any reaction in lab, we use water displacement but with an appropriate measurement devices such as a graduated cylinder on a ring stand. A picture of my home made measurement device will be attached.

Comparing gas output between a Stan Meyer set up of some kind and general electrolysis does not have to account for general efficiency to show that a different process than just electrolysis is taking place, in fact, general efficiency should be disregarded when the goal is simple to detect a different process then electrolysis. That being said, the calculations bellow will be most helpful in comparing what I have described and not just a brute force electrolysis efficiency test which faraday equations can be easily used.


To compare your setups output to normal electrolysis, record a gas sample over time and the current going into the cell form your Meyer circuit and dc electrolysis. Voltage can be disregard because this is not for general efficiency.

For example,  with your Stan Meyer set up, you have 1 amp into the cell and you take a gas measurements for 30 seconds.

Step #1.
covert amps over time into total electrons that moved through the circuit. 1 amp in one second is one coulomb and a coulomb = 6.24x10^18 electrons.
Since the gas measurements was taken over 30 seconds it will be 6.24x10^18 (e-) * 30s = 1.872x10^20 electrons in total. Since we know for every two electrons that pass through the circuit, we create two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, we know that we created 1.872x10^20 hydrogen atoms and 9.36x10^19 oxygen atoms. Since oxygen and hydrogen both exist as H2 and O2, the amounts of atoms are then divided by two to find the total number of element. This step is necessary for a later equation.
so, H2=9.36x10^19  and O2=4.68x10^19

Step#2)
Covert to moles. One mole is equal to 6.022x10^23 which is Avogadros number. ( 1 mole of H2 = 6.0022x10^23 H2 molecules)
9.36x10^19/ 6.022x10^23 =1.554x10^-4 mol H2
4.68x10^19/6.022x10^23 = 7.772x10^-5 mol O2

Step #3)
Solving for volume. To solve for volume of the gas created, we can use the ideal gas law which is V=nRT/p
V=volume
n=moles
R=gas constant of .0821
C= temp. in kelvin. We will use 273k assuming standard conditions
P=pressure in atm. We will use 1 atm assuming standard conditions

The formula must be adapted to account for both gases. V=RT/p*(nA+nB)
So Volume=.0821*273k/1atm*(1.554x10^-4mol H2 +7.772x10^-5 mol O2)
Predicted Volume = 5.225x10^-3L hho or 5.225ml hho

that is only for one cell, so for example, I have 8 cells in series, so the output will be 5.225ml*8= 49.80ml hho produced in 30 seconds with 1 amp input to the cell. Find the percent error between your calculated value and the experimental gas volume collected from ordinary dc electrolysis to see how accurate your measurements are. Now you will have something to compare your gas measurements using your Meyer circuit with. Remember, your calculated values of gas volume must use the same amperage as your measurement at the cell of your Meyer circuit for the values to be comparable.

If you can manage to produce more gas with your Meyer circuit then what is predicted by electrolysis, you have just collected experimental evidence that something else is taking place and you can then work to improve it/ share your findings

Description of measurement apparatus: On upside down graduated cylinder with a valve can be moved up and down the wood rod. To fill the graduated cylinder, the valve is opened and the cylinder is moved into the water. Then the valve us closed and the cylinder is raised and filled with water and ready to be displaced by hho.

I hope this helps someone, I am also know to make mistakes so if I made a calculation error, please let me know so I can fix it.





Title: Re: Gas measurements math and technique
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2014, 03:07:25 am
worried about inefficiency of your cell throwing off  your calculated vs real world values off? Don't be, this calculation only considers current and inefficiency comes from over potential.
Title: Re: Gas measurements math and technique
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 20, 2014, 17:55:55 pm
Thanks for sharing Dave!