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Electrolysis => Fuel Cells => Plate Cells => Topic started by: Steve on April 18, 2008, 01:05:11 am

Title: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 18, 2008, 01:05:11 am
Hi,

I wanna make a new WFC. A wfc without the need for chemicals.

So the goal is set. I wanna make a platecell that is so efficient as possible without the use of chemicals.

Fact 1:
The WFC must be connected to a 12V powersupply.
As we know, the voltage drops a bit when you hook up a wfc. In my case to a 9 Volts on my current wfc.

Fact 2:
Use of material is set to be SS 304 and not 316. To be honest, i do not see any difference on smuck. Actually, my best tube cell is done with 304 and not with 316.

Question 1:
What is the ideal voltage across a cell (without the use of chemicals)

Question 2:
What is the ideal gap between the plates (without use of Chemcals)

Question 3:
Plate setting. Does neutral plates have a function if you do not use chemicals?
Should I go for a +-+-+- setting?

Question 4:
Shape of plates. I have seen some options for that. Square, like Bob did, and many of you guys out there. Or circle shape? Or triangle.
I have seen the wfc of Xogen on pictures as you all did. That rectangle shape is probably a good one. If you make the plates to high, the gas will be trapped. I prever a quick exit for the gas.

Question 5:
Usage of a waterpump? I like the Allgood project! Well done, sir. Very stimulating!

There must be some questions i didnt ask, so please feel free.
I will create here some topics for these questions so you all can go loose on them...

My question to you forum visitors:
Dont hold back on writing reply's. Any info is very much appriciated.

Lets make this a good one!

br
Steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 09:16:23 am
Hi,

I wanna make a new WFC. A wfc without the need for chemicals.

So the goal is set. I wanna make a platecell that is so efficient as possible without the use of chemicals.

Great, you'll be the first to do this! that is, perform the test needed to be performed.


Fact 1:
The WFC must be connected to a 12V powersupply.
As we know, the voltage drops a bit when you hook up a wfc. In my case to a 9 Volts on my current wfc.

voltage should not drop, i assume you're using a power supplie and not a direct DC source such as a car battery. When you hook a load across the battery the Voltage across the load should remain about 12, if your voltage drops then either your battery isn't much good for the test or your test load simply conducts to much, you don't want your cell to act just like a wire arching both of the terminals creating a dead short, of course this will cause volts to drop if conduction is to great. The conduction on just 1 of your cells alone shouldn't cause your voltage to drop much at all, if you get a drop with all cells and not one its a sign of a dead short or close to it.

Fact 2:
Use of material is set to be SS 304 and not 316. To be honest, i do not see any difference on smuck. Actually, my best tube cell is done with 304 and not with 316.

you may already know this, but just in case the smuck you refer to is comming from your SS tubes and not from the water, this is from hard running of Direct DC. Pulsed DC tends to be cleaner. 304 and 316 is both allows, meaning a mix of diff types of metals. i am still unsure how 304 differes from 316.

Question 1:
What is the ideal voltage across a cell (without the use of chemicals)

This cant be answered by use, you'll have to tell us from test, this is the point isn't it? this is a new breed of cell configeration where you want the cell to act as a capacitor. in the past we see that amps do work and volts are litterly useless. bob boyce series cell could possible take on a charge greater than the voltage driving his cell, i cant be sure. Anytime you charge a Capacitor with a frequency then the voltage across the capacitor should be more than double even triple the voltage you're using to charge the capacitor with. So it is for you to rule In or Rule out Low voltage high amps, or High voltage Low amps. As i said, you my friend is the one testing this so it is you that will bring forth this information we are not yet sure of.


Question 2:
What is the ideal gap between the plates (without use of Chemcals)

i can only comment, for one the problem is you need additives, since you're not using additives i would assume you want the gap as close as you can possibly get then, i wouldn't go over 1 neutral Plate. i would also have it to where you could hook all cells without neutral plates just to confirm stuff and help you understand more about what you're doing. let you see how its conduction etc,,. Also if you do use neutral Plates, BE SURE that when you hook your cell up, you just dont go Aww it dont work and unhook it. i remember when i first constructed my new tubes i was dissapointed, but i ran them for a min or to and it just sucked, the next comming min the gas started to pour off.. But you're working with a series cell here i assume, "Give it a few min's to charge" before you rule it out. also it is possible to condition your tubes like bob boyce does to gain a desirable conduction.

Question 3:
Plate setting. Does neutral plates have a function if you do not use chemicals?
Should I go for a +-+-+- setting?


yes, the function is if you don't use chemicals you'll see an amp drop, gas production is OK and unknown by 1 neutral plate, test was done with 120 volts and 7 neutral plates with tap water, gas was ok, nothing to jump up and down about. i cant say much because i didn't measure the gas output. you can see the more neutral plates the less gas, BUT test was not done on conditioned or trained plates. and if the cell needs to take on a charge greater than its power source is delivering than the plates will have to be conditioned, and still this might not work. But i see great gas for the amount of power used in the future for you.


Question 4:
Shape of plates. I have seen some options for that. Square, like Bob did, and many of you guys out there. Or circle shape? Or triangle.
I have seen the wfc of Xogen on pictures as you all did. That rectangle shape is probably a good one. If you make the plates to high, the gas will be trapped. I prever a quick exit for the gas.

i would go with whatever is the easiest and most affordable. for me, i use square plates and i use tie straps only to hold the plates, No screws or anything, just tie straps. But you're using connections and your cell should be a test bed, for that it would use square plates with triangle pointed ends. this way connections to the plates for bruteforcing is much easier.


Question 5:
Usage of a waterpump? I like the Allgood project! Well done, sir. Very stimulating!


There must be some questions i didnt ask, so please feel free.
I will create here some topics for these questions so you all can go loose on them...

My question to you forum visitors:
Dont hold back on writing reply's. Any info is very much appriciated.

Lets make this a good one!

br
Steve

Good luck with that,,, maybe someone will take interest in your work, i know i will! i would be doing it with you but i have other test on my hands as you know.
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 11:23:24 am
Thanks Hydro for your answers!

I will enter later more topics around this project and keep you all up to date with this.

br
steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 11:56:54 am
Aloha,
I built the following cell that ran without chemicals using distilled water. Straight 12 volt dc. Plates 8- 3.5"x 16" separated by 1/8" weed eater line, held together with 4- 5/16" nylon bolts. 4" ABS container held one gallon water with 4" airspace at top.
Bill
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 13:02:15 pm
bill was that neutral plates or all parallel?
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 19:06:13 pm
I doubt it would even make a single bubble if it had a neutral plate.
Make it +- all the way.  Especially on a plate cell because they often short out on all the ends.
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 19:44:38 pm
Today I run a test to find out what the ideal spacing is in my case.

I used 2 plates of SS. 10cm high or 4 inches.

I cut spacers out of a sheet of PVC.
That sheet of PVC is what i normally have in my administration ordners to have chapters in there ... 
They are very thin, so i started with 2 layers.

The testsetup was a 12V powersuply, which also will be the powersuply for the final WFC. Between the testplates and the PS was an ampmeter.
Gasproduction measurements on output.

Results:
2 layers produces big bubbles and some "smoke". Theory is that gas cannot flow wel and stacks up till the gasbubble is pressed out.

3 and then 4 layers produced more smoke and less big bubbles.

5 layers produced a nice 'Smoke" explosion..Nice flow! Amps dropped minimal in compare of 4 layers. This seems to be the border i was looking for.

To find out how width that border is, i went further with 6 layers.

6 layers produced also the smoke effect, but there was less production. This because amps were dropping.

Results conclusion:
4 inch high plates running on tapwater with no chemicals on 12VDC circuit
has an ideal gap space of: 0.022inch or 0,6mm

br
Steve

Ps.
1. I know that this is ideal for my kind of Tapwater.
2. The gap space is more of a border for the flow of water and gas. Its not so important what kind of amps
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2008, 22:51:55 pm
some pics

br
steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2008, 11:42:18 am
Tonight, i will run test with lower voltage. 5 volts.
Then i can make my mind up on the size of the platecell.

br
Steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2008, 16:59:57 pm
Today i ran a 3 plate setup.
To test the option of a neutral plate and what would happen.

Results:
1 neutral on 12Vdc with tapwater works.
1 neutral on 5Vdc with tapwater does not work at all.

12Vdc with 1 neutral plate drops the amps from 1.53 till 0.6 amps.

Conclusion: with lower volts, you will get a higher efficiency, but you have to use more plates and greater plates.
Plate size must be a factor 3 till 4 bigger before you get the same amp draw.

If you wanna see a video of this 3 plate setup, just go to:


gap space is 0.6mm

br
Steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2008, 17:57:16 pm
Hi,

The following parameters will be used on my next WFC.

1. Voltage: 12VDC
2. Amps max: 32A
3. Watertype: Tapwater
4. Chemicals: NON
5. Gap space between plates: 0.022 inche
6. Plate height: 5 inches
7. Plate length: 8 inches
8. Neutral plates: 1

Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2008, 14:12:43 pm
Aloha,
Yes, those plates were in parallel.

Running tap water and straight DC is, in some opinions, not a practical why to formulate testing.
Aside from the chlorine, your tap water likely contains dissolved solids which affect acidity. Like adding a weak electrolite.
Have you done a PH test on the water?
Is it neutral PH?
Is it consistant day by day?
Do you live in an area where old pipes may be present- which could leach iron, lead, etc?
It would be best to use distilled water, or at least filtered water.
Bill
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2008, 22:03:45 pm
Aloha,
Yes, those plates were in parallel.

Running tap water and straight DC is, in some opinions, not a practical why to formulate testing.
Aside from the chlorine, your tap water likely contains dissolved solids which affect acidity. Like adding a weak electrolite.
Have you done a PH test on the water?
Is it neutral PH?
Is it consistant day by day?
Do you live in an area where old pipes may be present- which could leach iron, lead, etc?
It would be best to use distilled water, or at least filtered water.
Bill

Bill,

I am aware of the fact that my tapwater is pretty constant and is holding some stuff in it.
The fact is that i want to drive on tapwater. I dont wanna buy destilled and KOH.
Destilled is asking for chemicals, otherwise it is doing nothing.


br
Steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 02, 2008, 08:03:20 am
Aloha,
I live in an agricultural area. The result is fertilizers leach into the water. My water has a slightly acidic PH.
Also my home is almost 70 years old. Even though I have replaced all of the plumbing, I bet there are a lot of old pipes here, and I live at the bottom of the sub-division. As a result, I may get contaminates from my neighbors too. I don't drink tap water here, even though it tastes good and comes from a beautiful spring.
The point is, when I put this tap water into a cell, it really reacts. Even if you have really super clean tap water, it's a good idea not to recommend it. Most communities sell filtered water cheaply. At least do a PH test. A dissolved solids tester can be had for a reasonable price. If your PH is not neutral, then your not much different than the guy using a slight amount of lye, etc. in distilled water.
Bill
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 02, 2008, 08:51:02 am
You are right, bill.
I will run a ph test.
Do you have numbers on how much ph water may have?

br
steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 03, 2008, 10:52:12 am
Aloha,
Thanks for the reply.
Neutral PH is technically 7.0. Anything between 6.5 and 7.5 could be neutral.
If your water, even neutral, develops a scum on top, it is contaminated.
Filtered water will get dirty too, buts it's a good option, usually consistent. A good standard. When you duplicate Stan- then water choice may not be as critical.
Bill
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 03, 2008, 13:52:14 pm
Bill,

what stan did is what i do and that is plain electrolysis, accoording to the testreport i ll have from stan meyer.

I even going to shoot photons to the electrons to make the electrolysis proces easier..

br
steve
Title: Re: Plate cell construction (setup without use of chemicals)
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 05, 2008, 13:26:37 pm
Aloha,
Stevie- Sorry, maybe we are talking about different Meyers processes.
There are several, so it can be confusing.
Most of my posts refer to his original work.
Bill