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Projects by members => Projects by members => Tony Woodside => Topic started by: TonyWoodside on February 22, 2012, 00:02:23 am

Title: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 00:02:23 am
in this video I show an example and explanation of how Stan's VIC Transformer operates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHgc3Xtgog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHgc3Xtgog)
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 00:30:38 am
Looks good to me! Thank you!
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 00:56:12 am
I just made a couple of changes to the setup in this video and here are the current measurements. I added two 220 ohms 5W resistors to the primary, one resistor on each side to limit the primary current. I took a current measurement on the primary with 120VAC RMS @ 60Hz and the current was 72mA through the primary. I also took a current reading on the secondary side of the transformer before the diode and measured 128mA with 25VAC @ 60Hz. I then took a current measurement between the diode and L1 choke and it measured 105mA with 10.5VDC @ 120Hz. Also took a current measurement on between the secondary and L2 and it measured 128mA with 25VAC @ 60Hz. The transformer is a 21:1 set-down. I get a nice stream of HHO and I let it run for 20 mins and the water temp hasn't increased at all.
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 03:27:48 am
very nice, works just like you said. and just like stan said more that matter. My question is, have you gotten it to work with your vic setup. Does the higher frequency cause a problem?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 06:12:58 am
So in this setup I take it your applying AC to the AC XMFR?   

Do you think the secondary coil is supposed to be center tapped?

Attached is a multisim replication to show the doubling effect so everyone can see what Tony has done in the video!
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 09:12:38 am
thats correct...the reason I used the center tap is because the VIC Trans acts like center tap trans. In Stan's trans you want your reference point to be between the Secondary and L2 (negative) choke and you should see this same effect.
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 14:14:11 pm
What are the specs on the vic - bifilar or not?
Wound in the same direction - different direction - # of turns?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 16:39:51 pm
I tried doing what you have suggested. I seems i'm not getting any rectification from the diode.
Any idea why?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 21:35:49 pm
I did some testing today, the only time I can get that waveform is when I don't have the cell hooked to the vic.
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 14, 2012, 14:11:50 pm
I have a question about inductors in series and voltage/current phase.  It seems to me that inductors in series shouldn't mean that the voltage would go out of phase an additional 90 degrees for each coil in series.  Case in point is a tapped transformer.  There really should be no reason for a single tapped transformer to put the phase out by 180 degrees.  Does this make sense?  If not, please explain or provide supporting links.

Thanks
 
TS
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 14, 2012, 18:52:13 pm
You are right, If inductors are in series this wont mean they are 90° of each other...

I will try to explain to you...

If you have two coupled inductors with same inductance, and you connect them in series, there is two possibilities, or you connect them adding the fields, in this case the inductance value will be 4x greater, or you subtract and in this case you almost kill all the inductance of both coils, in this case it will not become zero because not aways all the fields are completely coupled.

-this means that in the first case the voltages of both coils adds up... In the second case the voltages cancel each other and sums to zero...

Your question, is the question of many here...

90° what it is?

An inductor is known as a mean to make voltage lead current... Now what this mean... If you apply a voltage in a circuit having an inductor in series, across the inductor initially there will be the applied volts as long as the current start flowing a voltage opposite to that applied appears across the inductor canceling the applied voltage.
If you apply this voltage across the inductor, first you will get zero current and when the current reach its maximum the voltage should become zero...

So Voltage leads current. Inductors have their higher voltage across its leads when there is a maximum rate of change in current...

The amount of phase° it will give to a signal will depends on how big is the inductor, the frequency and impedance of the circuit...

But if you get two coupled coils they can only have two configurations possible, or 0° (positive cosine) Adding, or 180° (negative cosine) subtracting...is scalar product...
 
At resonance at the inductor the voltage leads current by 90°... this is correct... and in the capacitor the current leads voltage 90°, because it will reach its maximum voltage when current is zero or finally stops in one direction. This is cross product...

If you have a tapped transformer, and you get the coils in the same direction, you get 0° between its output leads or maximum voltage... If the secondaries were subtracting than you get the signals 180° or zero volts out... This don't mean there is zero volts across the secondaries, the volts still there but both secondaries ends in this case are at the same time or positive or negative. so no volts between the leads... only alternating potential...

I could be confusing you on the phase stuff and i can be wrong in definition, so i tell you the definition its not even relevant, the important is to understand what is happening...

If i understood well tony was saying the 180 sums and 0° subtracts... not sure, for me depends on what you are talking about... hwr he might be right...

Try to get a book... you will see its not a 7 head beast.

To be able to understand what stan did you get to know more than he knew about this stuff so remains no doubt to you and you can go on further.

Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 18, 2012, 21:22:55 pm
Hello maybe this could help...

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/buck-xfmr.htm

This explain how a bucking transformer reduces the potential applied instead of simply transforming the voltage by transforming action... which makes the secondary load current to not pass thru the primary directly... This reduce the size, cost and weight of the transformer...
This reduction takes place when a negative voltage is added in series... so no power is consumed simply the potential is diminished....

 
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 18, 2012, 22:38:14 pm
Fabio, let me explain to you why all this phase relation and stuff mean very little in the scheme of things. Consider the potential of a negative -12V in relation to a positive +12V. It will measure @ 24V. A potential of positive +24V in relation to a 0V or ground is still 24V and will measure again @ 24V. I could say the glass is half full, while, others may say it is half empty... Does it matter?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 18, 2012, 23:02:59 pm
Hi Bubz,

I agree with you... 24v=+12v+(-12v ) If you consider only difference of potential... This is a simple sum of the magnitudes of those vectors...and agree that the phases is the last of our problem here... I'm counting only adding or subtracting... assuming all the signals are synchronized...

What i'm insisting, is that if you take a +12 signal and in series with it you have a -12 signal at the end you get exactly 0, because this cancel out the potentials...

If you get two batteries and connect their negative sides together and try to measure the voltage across the positive leads, you get 0 volts if both batteries had the exact same voltage...

If this is not true all the electronics books are wrong, and there is no equilibrium.

Meyer had both chokes canceling each other so the only voltage difference applied to the cell is the secondary voltage... thats all i'm saying...

If you have a choke opposing the field of the other connected in series their voltages don't sum it up, you only subtract one signal from the other... I'm clearly saying what many already concluded before... meyer seems to not be applying high voltage across the water... only across the circuit components...

Thereto the chokes are there to only apply high voltage potential, which is not consumed in and electronic circuit if electrons are not allowed to flow... Charged voltage zones...

Can you see the difference?

Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 00:18:39 am
Chokes do what chokes do... They choke the current, keeping it from running away just as in certain light circuits. The chokes allow us to raise the voltage levels without the increase in current. and as current increases, voltage decreases. The chokes will not stop current so much as they keep it from increasing as fast without the coils.

Try running a typical electrolysis cell at 80V and then measure the cell during operation. You will notice a huge voltage drop and a rising current. Add any random sized choke or chokes to the circuit and measure again during operation. This time you will see a less drop in voltage, plus, the current will only rise to a certain level, lower than normal, and maintain that level rather than increase with a heating runaway effect.

One of the effects, due to the higher voltages, the gasses evolved from the process have more of a tendency to stay in a mono-atomic state and or ionized. It also takes much less energy to ionize mono-atomic particles than it is stable molecules in a ground state.
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 09:43:50 am
Chokes choke certain peaks/changes in power.
Bubz, the bifilar chokes have also a capacitance, which work as a capacitor.
This capacitor can/must release its charge in a form of many amps at a very low voltage or vica versa.
If water has a resistance of 80ohms, you can do the math.

Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 14:01:55 pm
If you get two batteries and connect their negative sides together and try to measure the voltage across the positive leads, you get 0 volts if both batteries had the exact same voltage...

While this may be true for a battery, the battery is generating the power.  An inductor is not a battery and does not function the same way.  An inductor opposes a change in current direction. If the rest of the circuit has current going in a specific direction, the inductor must follow it, regardless of its orientation.  Although it may change the phase, it cannot change the direction of the electron flow and potential and the inductor still has a charge and must discharge somwhere.  That somewhere must be in the same direction as the rest of the circuit.  It would simply introduce resistance to current flow.

TS
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 14:16:57 pm
A choke is a coil normally not a too big value, that serves to choke off or filter high frequency signals from the line of interest.

A choke with a capacitor in parallel become a resonant choke, because of resonance the impedance at that frequency become immense dozens of times greater than with the choke alone. 

A choke connected in series with a diode being subjected or coupled in a transformer become a charge pump if connected in boost mode.. i don't know if connected in bucking mode... A charge pump mean that it won't have limitation of potential difference, the secondary voltage grows up to the limit. for example a 100v secondary with a diode and a small choke will charge a capacitor up to 3kv...  Thats why is so called a charging choke...

If the same situation of last example but the choke not coupled... the voltage only doubles at the resonant frequency...

So what i mean is that a choke don't choke whatever current off it only creates a high impedance path for ac signals...

You are right when you say the higher the current the voltage decreases, because the higher will be the voltage across the coil so it acts reducing the potential applied... hwr its accumulating it on the coil ok--- 

Ts

Voltage is Voltage... If the inductor is a secondary in a transformer is the same thing as a battery is simply has AC instead of DC... Voltages still add or subtract... If you want to understand is up to you...

Just clearing a secondary of a transformer is a battery with alternating polarity that follow a sine function... and has an impedance due to the frequency and its inductance, also other limitations from core limited size, whatever ... A battery also has an analogous impedance the internal resistance...

Any other inductor coupled to the same transformer, has only two options or add or subtract the voltage if connected in series...

Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 15:01:06 pm
If you had a choke with its XL 100 ohms and with 100ohms ohmic resistance, than you apply whatever voltage to it, at this specific frequency... The voltage across the coil will aways be? Zero assuming the inductance is constant because the inductive voltage exactly opposes the resistive voltage since V= I*XL=I*R

Is that correct?


To completely understand how the phase angle works read this link with attention... Really good information... http://www.intmath.com/complex-numbers/9-impedance-phase-angle.php
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 15:10:23 pm
I understand the equation, what's the point?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 15:13:33 pm
If the resistance is = the inductive reactance the voltage leads current by 45°

I was wondering what would mean to have 0 volts across the coil... maybe i'm wrong... Completely wrong.. In this case the voltage lead current by 45° so the resistive voltage is not in the same phase as the inductive voltage...
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 16:11:19 pm
sebs, when Stan did his speech in New Zealand, he was asked the frequency used with his devices and he replied, "Typically 0-50Khz". What does his reply mean to you? Why would he say "0hz" implying that a signal is not needed?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 16:28:09 pm
I believe he was taking about the gate... when said this 0 hz... I also think that this is the range he looked into not what he used specifically...

I mean... he created a kind of particle accelerator that works with charge...

This is an example of ionic conduction... The ball is like the ion that capture the electron on one side and deliver at the other side... http://video.mit.edu/watch/conducting-ping-pong-ball-between-capacitor-plates-3280/
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 18:46:30 pm

Voltage is Voltage... If the inductor is a secondary in a transformer is the same thing as a battery is simply has AC instead of DC... Voltages still add or subtract... If you want to understand is up to you...

Just clearing a secondary of a transformer is a battery with alternating polarity that follow a sine function... and has an impedance due to the frequency and its inductance, also other limitations from core limited size, whatever ... A battery also has an analogous impedance the internal resistance...

Any other inductor coupled to the same transformer, has only two options or add or subtract the voltage if connected in series...

EXCEPT in THIS circuit there is a blocking diode forcing the AC to DC.  As such the inductors currents are being influenced dominantly in one direction.  Where you will still have some resonant action between the coils and the capacitor, the predominant disposition of ALL the coils can only be to flow in one direction.

TS
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 19:16:42 pm
I just found an interesting parameter... If the system is at resonance it behave as a pure resistor, this mean the source is feeding voltage and current with no lag or lead... so to really retard the current the system must be out of resonance... or the resonance must be elsewhere

If the inductive reactance is big, the resistance is small and the capacitive reactance is also small than, voltage leads the current by say 89°... This mean a frequency higher than resonant frequency for example...

Because the angle ° between current and voltage is = arctan (XL-XC)/R in degrees, If the angle is positive the voltage leads current and if negative the current leads voltage...

At resonance the power factor seen by the source is 1 or close to it...

So if we were to apply energy at this higher frequencies what happens?
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 19:41:59 pm
I just found an interesting parameter... If the system is at resonance it behave as a pure resistor, this mean the source is feeding voltage and current with no lag or lead... so to really *  the current the system must be out of resonance... or the resonance must be elsewhere

According to Meyer, the resonance is only between the cell and L1.

Next blurb is on another tangent. 

Something occurred to me a little while ago as I watched water drain from a tub.  The water would drain a little, the water level would go down a little and then interestingly the water actually surges back up again momentarily.  Obviously because the pressure in the pipes exceeded the water drain pressure.  But it made me think of a natural system's inclination to self balance.  The same occurs as we try to destabilize the water using voltage.  We need to interrupt the water's inclination to restabilize after applying the voltage pulse to it.  This is either accomplished through the resonant action, OR there needs to be a mechanism in the process to hold it in the destabilized state as we attempt to further destabilize it.

Anyway, just some ponderings I thought to share.

TS
Title: Re: Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2012, 20:02:16 pm
I believe its pretty much like this Ts, when you takes something out of equilibrium this something wants to come back to equilibrium. However when you reach too far from equilibrium, and the thing try to equilibrate itself it just cant because it has more energy than could handle in equilibrium... so it got to become something else.

Think of a piano... If you add 1meter of gravitational potential than let the piano fall in the ground it will get damaged...

If you take this piano 10meter higher than when you let it fall it will get completely destroyed...

When the high voltage pulse frequency is applied to the water the water ions get ionized this mean free electrons and positive ions, If you than make them to combine there inside they will do so with the simplest configuration possible, assuming recombination to water will be only a small portion...because electrons have a ratio of charge to mass much greater than the H+ ions and far much greater than OH+ ions, this mean the speed of the electron in comparison must be several magnitudes greater.... They should want to go to the lower energy state but this is far apart at the other side of the cell than the simplest configuration in terms of molecular scale. Stan stated that its only related to the deflection and movement of electrons... 

The ion and electron feel the same force but as the masses are different if strong enough force is applied the electrons are accelerated much more than the ion... and when they split (ionize) they will go in opposite directions despite the fact they still attract each other.