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Stanley Meyer => General Stan Meyer topics => Topic started by: HMS-776 on December 06, 2011, 09:04:51 am

Title: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2011, 09:04:51 am
I think the VIC is the biggest obstacle in understanding Meyers work.
In this post I hope all will contribute their ideas and thoughts of how it works.

(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/VICmatricckt.png)
The research I have done leads me to believe that the VIC chokes form parallel resonant tank circuits.
In the diagram above you can see the drawing shows the equivalent circuit of each choke coil.
There is a capacitor, and inductor, and resistance which forms a parallel RLC circuit.

Current Limiting: If the chokes oscillate at their self resonant frequency they are equivalent to a parallel tank circuit. At resonance the parallel tank circuit has a nearly infinite impedance which limits current to almost zero.

Ref:  http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34d.htm

Voltage Enhancement: The voltage from the VIC does not come from it's turns ratio. The turns ratio steps up the voltage a little, but not as much as what the VIC outputs.

 I believe this is where the square wave pulsing of the VIC comes into play. The square wave provides a very fast change in the circuits line current(note that in the circuit there is the alternating current of the chokes, but there is also a line current.) The line current is the current that flows through the whole circuit. The line current is very small, and it is the current which flows across the water cap.

Ref: http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34e.htm

When the square wave ends the current falls rapidly and the inductors (Secondary, L1, and L2) induce a voltage which can be calculated using the formula V=Lxdi/dt.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/2.html

Voltage Enhancement The other way I think the VIC might be getting it's high voltage from is the tank circuits high circulating current
and the impedance of the parallel tanks componnets. V=I x Z. This is basic ohms law, Voltage = Current times Impedance.

The VIC Output waveform I have to thank TonyW for this as he helped me understand that the VIC outputs AC, not DC. There are 2 AC waves 180 degrees apart which combine to double the output frequency. The diode prevents the secondary coil from shorting, but the AC generated by the chokes (at resonance) still reflects to the water capacitor.

I modeled the VIC matrix circuit above on multisim and at resonance I got 2 AC waves (1 at each plate) which were 180 degrees out of phase. I also got the pulse doubling effect. Unfortunately I did not save the design and when I made changes to it I could not get the simulation to work appropriatel. I have been trying to get it up and running again but have had no luck. If I do I will post it...I think it's just showing that this circuit will not perform the intended output unless it's exactly at resonance.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2011, 09:24:38 am
Ok everyone, now it's your turn to explain your ideas and thoughts of what the VIC is doing?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 09:18:25 am
Sounds right to me sir :)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 14:02:48 pm
The VIC should work how SM explained it! 8)

It's a complete resonance wfc system, it consist of different (matched) parts working together.

I think the main reason (for the resonance wfc system) is that none has re-discovered the right VIC transformer core material to really have and seen the amp-restriction due to the chokes (core aiding flux) and also connected an isolated (delrin cavity) wfc to one VIC transformer to see this.
If amp-restriction is not occurring, you can not separate (in four stages) the water molecule efficient with voltage. What SM called "the Water Polarization Process".

Only isolated wfc should work because we don't want voltage fluctuation (leakage) between the exciters (what SM explains). It should be stable enough to maintain resonance (restrict amps). Remember: Voltage Preforms Work (not my words) ;)

The VIC is matched to a wfc cavity (capacitance) and for a known type of water used in it. (resonance frequency for resonant choke to choke/restrict amps)

And big wfc tubes should be banned!!! Smaller is better! Lower capacitance, smaller coils, higher voltage and higher frequency etc.
I recommend everyone to use the specs SM has given in his patents and/or use the specs from Dynodon for the wfc cavity and the VIC transformer.

But hey, if someone want to use amps, go ahead. :P (current destroys)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 18:18:12 pm
Sounds right on to me guys,

There is one part I'd like to add that hasn't been talked about to much.
Resonant action, this is shown in patents when explaining the wiper arm on the bottom choke. He said it was four resonant action tuning. For a long time I thought this was for tuning into circuit resoance but I found out that my Water cap resonates with the top inductor. Tony and Don have posted similar findings. It wasn't till the sales manual was release that Stan explained that resonant action was the movement of atom\ions in the water cap. This is way I think his chokes were different sizes. He never came out and said they were the same but said things like they were similar length.
So, with the movement of ions that we are creating we could have colison between them and a transfer of electrons.
Stan also states in the sales manual that colision is part of the process
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 21:01:58 pm
hey Dave, resonant action is also explained in the Voltage Control patent (ending with 661)

Here is a collection of statements from that patent.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture41-2.png)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 22:27:31 pm
But, can resonant action be achieved with a typical submerged cell, or is there some design factors involved to make it work as described? Could there be a gap tolerance where the resonant action cannot propagate due to having too wide of a gap? Do normal injectors have a resonant frequency? Pulse jet?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 22:57:07 pm
I take the guess that th distance between the plates / tubes equals a frequency that at resonance the vic/choke circuit matches? So is there a calculation to determine gap distance and is there a desired frequency to aim for in determining the gap? and another thought, does the length/height of the tubes / plates affect the frequency aimed for in setting the gap?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 23:08:59 pm
The frequency matched to the gap does have to be a full wavelength frequency, it can be a 3/4 wave, 1/2 wave, 1/4 wave, etc.. Also during current restriction you will not have electrons from the coils crossing the plates, but you will have electrons from the SS plates them self crossing through the water and this will aid in the water splitting. Now as far as the water is concerned, Stan states that water has a dielectric value of approx. 78. This means that 78% of the water bath is non-conductive and the remaining 22% is conductive. Based on tests that I have conducted does prove this to be true. I wont go into full details, but I will tell you this, Stan says he wanted to "tune" into the dielectric properties of water (non-conductive 78%), so basically he wanted to nullify the 22% conductive property of the water bath. Now you have to ask yourself how you can do this!  ;)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 23:13:55 pm
Yeah I would think that all those things would apply. It couldnt just be one frequency right? I mean the electronics scan and find resonance in the range they were designed for so it couldn't be. Maybe resonant action can happen in a rang of frequencies. With that said would it not also depend on the voltage force being applied?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2011, 23:48:00 pm
The frequency can be harmonics of the frequency used to split the water molecule. Like say if the LC circuit resonates at 5kHz, this would be like the 7th Harmonic of 320kHz.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Waves_in_Box.svg/220px-Waves_in_Box.svg.png)

Yea the voltage force is what causes the electrons from the SS material to be pulled off the surface and also splitting the water. To understand the cell you first need to understand antennas, waveguides and electromagnetism. Once you research this you will see that the the waveguide has to match the coil. Just like the way a radio operates.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 08, 2011, 04:10:12 am
Well, it's going to be some time before I fully understand all of that. Lots of books to read :)

Thanks Don for pointing me towards that patents, I haven't read that one in a long long time.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 08, 2011, 04:34:19 am
 :-XDave, you mentioned resonant action earlier.

I think the collision is a major part of all of meyers work, and the resonant action is basically a
threshold point at which dissassociation goes geometrial. Of course the resonant
action does not occur at a specific voltage, it's dependant on a number of factors like
voltage, frequency, leakage current, plate gap etc.

I think it's collision as well as the snapping action which cause disassociation.
That's  why hvdc does not produce a lot of gas. Hydrocars posted a while back
about having successfully putting hvdc across water and only producing
small amounts of gas.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 08, 2011, 11:06:55 am
does that mean we want resonace at 78 ohms in L1 or 78 ohms in L2 or are those just silly questions?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 08, 2011, 18:06:56 pm
during current restriction you will not have electrons from the coils crossing the plates, but you will have electrons from the SS plates them self crossing through the water and this will aid in the water splitting.

You got me thinking... it would seem to me that electrons only pass through the water by being carried with an ion. As in a simple electrolysis experiment, the purer the water, the less ion content = little or no gasses.

I have attached two similar experiments for demonstration.
feature=related

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 08, 2011, 21:14:08 pm
yea when the u get the high voltages across the plates, the high voltages will cause the SS material to release its own electrons into the water and it will aid in the splitting. So the electrons in the water will come from the SS plates and not the circuit itself.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 09, 2011, 20:05:00 pm
In the water the free electrons will also be the smallest particle, having the least mass, which means they will have the greatest velocity to perform collision ionization!

In one of Stephen Meyer's radio interviews he talked about how the electrons spiral around the wire as they move down the wire. The electrons on a positive conductor will spiral one way, and the electrons in a negative conductor will spiral in the opposite way.
Artinvegas said that Stan had theorized there would exist bidirectional vortexes within the cell which would rip the water mol apart.

It seems like the electrons play a bigger role than we thought previously. I guess as long as your not exchanging electrons then you can take advantage of the physical force of collision without using large amounts of power.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 10, 2011, 22:23:43 pm
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/reseft.png)

The diagram above shows that each choke coil performs a different function.

The injector VIC has 2 choke coils even though the injector only has 1 connection which connects to the inner electrode, the outer electrode is grounded through the engine.

Tony, Don, and others have mentioned that the VIC resonance is between the positive choke and the cell, and that the negative choke has no effect on resonance. I mentioned in the first post that resonance is the self resonance of the coils, but I think the cell effects resonance because of the antiresonance phenemenon.

Ref: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/5.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_6/5.html)

So the question I have for everyone now is, what is the purpose of each choke coil and how are they behaving differently?
Stan explains them as performing different functions in the tech brief.

One thing I think is important here is the diode placement. It prevents the AC from the secondary from reaching the positive choke.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 10, 2011, 22:33:11 pm
when L1 & Cell are in resonance they have "Zero" resistance (XL1 = XCp), but L2 will have a very high resistance to current flow (XL1 = XCp < XL2).
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 10, 2011, 23:08:59 pm
Yup, you can't create voltage across the cell without the L2 choke or with one that is to small. Resonate action also is a effect and I would imagine that it has something to do with L2 being a different size. As Tony has pointed out, it would be sending a different frequency to the cell than the L1. Could this cause resonant action?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 06:36:59 am
So, the L1 choke and cell are a series LC resonant circuit. The resonance creates the high voltage, while the L2 choke limits current?

 In a series LC circuit the increased voltage is due to the Q factor which is XL or XC (since both are equal at resonance) divided by R.

If only the L1 choke and cell are in resonance then would the Q factor calculations include the secodary reactance and the L2 choke reactance?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 06:47:33 am
Hms, that is exactly what I have found from my experiments, L1 is in resonance and L2 is restricting amp flow. We often think of the Wfc as a capacitor but it only functions as a capacitor because of the Vic. I think the high voltage is created elseware in the circuit, not the series resonance, I mean that wouldnt make sense.  The L2 choke is really something special. With my first Vic set up I messed around with the inductance of the L2 choke a lot. There seems to be perrameters but I could increase the inductance and voltage would also rise.

Ps Alex petty claims to have a proof of concept set up. It's interesting and it is proof of concept in my opinion. What I don't understand is what the difference is about his set up or even in my own set up. I ordered a lot of testing equipment so hopefully I will be able to show you guys some sound data soon
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 06:51:16 am
That's very interesting.

Especially if the reactance of the secondary and L2 choke are part of the Q calculation. That would mean that thier reactances would increase the voltage magnification of the cirucit, and they would also limit current...
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 07:27:07 am
Ps Alex petty claims to have a proof of concept set up. It's interesting and it is proof of concept in my opinion. What I don't understand is what the difference is about his set up or even in my own set up. I ordered a lot of testing equipment so hopefully I will be able to show you guys some sound data soon

Are you referring to the youtube video where he's using a 9v battery?
If so, I think his setup is doing basic electrolysis due to the cell having a pathway to ground via the transistor/FET. He has no chokes and only a coil in parallel with the cell. You can take a 9v battery and produce just as much HHO, if not more, as he is in the video.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 07:33:20 am
Tony, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know why but the video was really small, I was under the impression that he was using a Vic set up?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 09:11:51 am
Hmmm.

Back to the voltage at the cell....I think I was wrong earlier when I mentioned that the voltage was from the square wave or high circulating current across the choke parallel tank ckts.

In Stan Meyer's control and driver circuit patent he states that the voltage is determined by the turns ratio of the coils. From don's measurements we know the primary coil had 450 turns while the three secondary coils had 3,000 turns each, for a total of 9,000 secondary turns. We also know that the diode used for the WFC VIC was a 600V diode, which is also stated in the control and driver ckts patent.

From the calculations the WFC VIC had a turns ratio of roughly 1:22.5, so 12V in would yield 270V out. Now I want to state that I do think resonance may be occuring between the L1 choke and cell, but that the diode prevents the typical AC series resonance from occuring. I say this because if the typical series resonance were occuring at any frequency the Q factor of the circuit (XL/R) would have to be less than 2.2 (270V X 2.2=600V) or else the diode would be destroyed. Knowing the circuit values we know if typical series resonance was occuring the Q factor would be much higher than 2.2 and the voltage magnification would destroy the diode.

Can anyone with a working replication tell us what voltage they are getting across the cell?

I'm just wondering here because if the VIC is utilizing DC resonant charging then it would be around 540V (not taking losses into account).

So for the longest time I thought the VIC was getting a higher voltage than what the turns ratio provided....Now I think I was wrong all along?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 18:43:14 pm
Tony, here is the schematic that Alex says he is using http://www.singularics.com/docs/alex-petty_simple-wfc-energization-circuit.pdf
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 20:33:18 pm
yea thats the circuit he has on his website, but if you look in the video he is using a different circuit. This is the circuit he is using in the video.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/A.Petty_Circuit.png)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 11, 2011, 20:37:24 pm
Thanks for clearing that up. I watched it again and saw that schematic at the end. Not a Meyer replication,
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 00:37:51 am
HMS, in one of Stan's patents he writes about the Sec., L1 & L2, each being wrapped with a ratio of 10:1 compared to the primary. This would make the summation of the coils a 30:1 step-up. I mentioned this back last year, but I guess nobody paid me any attention. Stan says that with 12v input to the primary, you will get 360v at the output of the chokes.

Now, the thing that we all need to understand about the cell is this, the cell will act almost as a dead short with having a resistance around 200 - 250 ohms. What Stan was doing or attempting to do is make the cell act as a true capacitor. It will act as a really bad leaky capacitor, but once you, as Stan says, tune into the dielectric value of water, only then it will act as a real true capacitor! Like I stated earlier in this thread, the water has a dielectric of 78%, which is non-conductive. So at a certain frequency you will nullify the 22% conductivity and tune into the 78% non-conductive part of water and the voltage will rise dramatically with no current leakage!
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 02:04:00 am
Tony, thanks for the insight.

It makes sense, I'll just have to study more about dielectrics to fully comprehend it.

Back on the voltage and turns ratio, It's just very confusing because Stan makes several statements in the TB that would lead me to believe otherwise. I think there are VIC's that got their voltage from the turns raito and others which developed higher voltages than their turns ratio provides....Like the injector VIC, I built one  a while back and could not get anywhere close to a high enough turrs ratio to develop 20 or 40kV.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 02:28:50 am
Yea I built a scaled down version of the (6-1) injector VIC transformer and I was getting over 2kv using a real 1nF capacitor in place of the cell. Well I would connect it to a single tube cell, the voltage would drop into the mV range. This was due to a dead short condition existing in the cell. The inductance measurements of the scaled down VIC transformer's chokes where around 8.88H each fully assembled, but with the outer secondary bobbin removed, they would measure 18H each.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VicCoil_Bobbin_1.jpg)

I'm currently constructing a scaled size model of the 6-1 VIC Transformer for testing. In this one I am using 430 FR SS wire. The chokes measure around 11.7k ohms each.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/S.Meyer_6-1_VIC_Coil.jpg)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 03:35:35 am
Seems we both realized that the injector VIC has a very high inductance.

When I built mine and connected all the secondary coils series aiding I was reading over 15H. At times my meter would stop reading because it was going over 20H. The 430 wire has some wierd characteristics, it seemed that trying to measure actual inductance  caused the inductance to increase. I think this was because the meter pushes current through the coil to measure the inductance, and the current was increasing the inductance of the coils...

I used the 430 wire which used to belong to Stan but I don't think the company that put the coating on it did a very good job because it was peeling off.

I also had a connection break inside the bobbin so I was never able to even test it out.....Really frusterating because I put over 100 hours into it....
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Hms-776/vicc.jpg)


One thing I really wonder about the VIC injector is how resonance was maintained. Because the inejctors on time was so short there definately is not enough time there to use a PLL to scan for and lock resonance....I'm thinking that is one reason why the high resistance wire was used, to broaden the resonant bandwidth by dampening the circuit. I have only seen a small amount of info in the tech brief about the injector VIC driving circuitry.....

Where did you get your 430 wire from?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 04:44:25 am
it came from Stan's stuff. The core material also came from Stan's collection. I just need to wrap the secondary so I can test it.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 05:25:16 am
Tony, from the picture of your full scale VIC it looks like you were able to solder the 430 wire to the posts...How were you able to solder them? That is one big problem I had when building mine which ultimately led to the wire breaking internally.

Also, I'm thinking the Injctor VIC resonance with the injector is over 20kHz, but using electrical steel throws me off, how thick are the electrical steel plates you have?

I used m4 electrical steel for mine but I think it was too thick for the frquencies which would be used.

PS, I have some info on the water fuel injectors from a good source. The center rod was .15", the taper went to .10" and was .5" in length with a gap of .01".....I calculated the estimated capacitance would be at a maximum 350pF.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 05:42:28 am
The plates are 0.3mm and they should be grain oriented steel. Yea I had some trouble soldering the wire but I ended up wrapping the wire around my terminals and was able to get the solder to hold the wire in place. I guess SS wire doesnt like to be soldered lol.
Yea in Stan's docs he says for the injector setup you would need frequencies up to 50kHz.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 06:02:59 am
Ok, 50kHz was what I was thinking also but I could not remember for sure...

Yeah that's most likely CRGO (Cold Rolled Grain Oriented) M4 electrical steel. It's the same stuff I used, it's 3mm also. I actually got mine from Don a while back.

So back to what you mentioned about the water's dielectric constant and tuning into it. I'm working to find out about what effect dielectric polarization has on leakage current. Is that what you were getting at about tuning into the water's dielectric?

Also, what turns ratio did you have in your small injector VIC?

Thanks everyone for the input, and sorry for all the questions tony....I'm just trying to get as many opinions and as much info as I can. I think the more we input we get on these forums the more we'll be able to rule out and understand.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 07:00:34 am
In Stan's papers he says to use M27 for the cores and this also goes for the 5 VIC transformer. So if you can get a ferrite core made, just use M27 laminates for the core.

If I'm right about the polarization, once you tune into the dielectric properties the cell will act just like a polarized capacitor. This is where the 180* phase shift will come into play and you will see the frequency doubling and voltage doubling occurring. What I mean by this is that when the water is polarized and you get the 180* phase shift, each positive voltage pulse from each phase will be seen on the polarized positive side of the cell and you should also see the negative voltage pulses on the other side of the cell. From tests that I have done using my 5 VIC transformer along with a real capacitor and the 180* phase shift, I was able to build up a high voltage potential over over 1.5kv.

If I remember right the scaled down 6-1 coil had a ratio of around 10:1
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 08:36:58 am
Very interesting.

I was reading in the dealership sales manual earlier about the ions and electrons in the cell increasing the cell voltage beyond the applied voltage.

Quote
In the area of electron deflection, the electrically charged atoms moving towards the water molecules further disrupt the covalent bonding, while at the same time increasing the electrical charges inside the fuel cell during the electrical polarization process. Increasing the number of electrically charged atoms within the fuel cell directly increases the voltage charges within the same cell while the applied voltage pulse frequency potential remains the same...increasing gas yield while power input remains the same.
-Delearship Sales manual Page F7

I tend to wonder if the voltage at each plate is really the same though, since each choke outputs AC there would have to be some kind of coupling between the plates, perhaps polarization causes that so I don't want to discount it.

I tend to think that the polarity of the plates is always opposite but changes with each pulse. The reason why I think this is occuring is because I think it would increase the resonant action (also called compounding).

Quote
Simply moving liberated atoms back and forth uniformly through the electrical polarization process in a repetitive manner establishes resonant action in the fuel cell.
-Delearship Sales Manual page F6

I think the above statement is explaining that AC is used to move the atoms back and forth, but as we know Meyer never really stated anything plainly, it's open to interpretation.

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 18:20:06 pm
those statements in the sales manual stuck out to me as well. I did an experiment where I produced hho through electrolysis and then continually pumped it through the cell with my early vic attempt hooked up.

If the cells polarity switched with each pulse, wouldn't that be equivalent to the steam resonator? In the sales manual Stan states that there is both a static and alternating field being applied to the cell. I don't understand how that one would work?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 21:11:13 pm
what voltages are you guys achieving across the water cell ?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 21:56:08 pm
If the cells polarity switched with each pulse, wouldn't that be equivalent to the steam resonator? In the sales manual Stan states that there is both a static and alternating field being applied to the cell. I don't understand how that one would work?

Yes, I was just about to point that out. In the Steam Resonator circuit, the gate pulses make the transistor switch the polarity on the plate, much like a H-bridge circuit. The voltage acts much like AC, but pulsed in a way to limit current. As you can test with AC voltage, it will not fracture the water but it will heat it up pretty fast. With tests that I have done with 120vac, I was able to super heat the water from room temp. to over 220 degrees in a matter of minutes. Here is a scope shot of what the output of the Steam Resonator pulses should look like.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/steam_resonator_pulse.jpg)
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 22:23:45 pm
Oh wow, that's awesome.

Yeah the polarity switching is something I was really questioning myself over for that very reason.
What I want to understand now though is why the WFC does not generate heat when there is collision occuring,
How exactly does that differ from the WFC?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 12, 2011, 23:08:28 pm
it came from Stan's stuff. The core material also came from Stan's collection. I just need to wrap the secondary so I can test it.

So does this mean that you know someone inside Quad City Innovate?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 00:24:28 am
no, lol...but one of my guys has been in contact with Chris @ Quad City Innovations. I got the bobbin, SS wire and core from John Bostick for testing. I'm pretty sure he told me it came from Stan's stuff, but of course you should be able to confirm this.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 00:59:46 am
Well that's cool! I thought when you said it came from Stans stuff you got it from Don. Chris is the chief technology guy correct? Do you guys know if they are having any success with Stan's stuff?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 04:46:05 am
Tony,if you got that core from John,I thought it looked familiar,I made those cores.That metal was some material I bought,and a few people here bought some.I spent alot of time making 4 sets of them.Hope it works out for your testing.
Don
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 06:12:03 am
Yeah I bought some from you don, took your advice as well and
used a guillotine paper cutter to cut out the e and I sections, it
worked well.  Thanks for all your contributions.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 19:42:52 pm
Ok Tony,

Before you mentioned that the capacitor has all positive pulses at one side and all negative pulses at the other even though each plate is recieving AC that is 180 out of phase.

 I've been looking into that effect and one person on an EE forum told me that electrolytic capcitors may act like a rectifier if the current through them is restricted....So now that is all I've heard, just searching around trying to find more info on the phenemenon to see if it really exists.

In the mean time I should also say that I got my VIC matrix circuit multisim replication working again, but I need to do more testing to make sure it's a correct replication...I don't want to fill this forum up with disinfo. I am getting the pulse doubling effect from the out of phase AC at each choke. But as we know the water capacitor has some special effects which cannot be replicated, like ionization and incrneased voltage, and maybe even rectification? Also, even though the circuit is at resonance the current is not dropping as it should.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 21:30:24 pm
I succeeded the unipolar pulses. This waveform of the vic sync pulse is not two ac 180° signals is simply a balanced +- outputs. There is a reason for this in the techbrief.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2011, 22:15:38 pm
Sebs, how did you accomplish this?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 01:29:53 am
Yea the cell can act like a diode in a way. I discovered this a while back. You can take a test meter and set it to the "Tone" setting which is used to test a short connection in a circuit. Depending on which lead you connect it to, you will get a "Tone" while connected in one configuration while if you connect it the opposite way you not get a "Tone". This shows that the cell can act as a diode in rectifying the signal and can conduct in one direction. Has anybody else tested this?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 02:08:07 am
I simply arranged everything just like stan said, including all parasitic effects of all components.

The unipolar pulses are independent of the frequency. the inputed frequency sets up the train of unipolar pulses...

I simply added a diode in the circuit across the secondary, but connected after the other diode in series...

Well its simply a transient effect so the components must be thought to generate this high frequency harmonics...

thats not all however that is needed to make it to work...
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 02:27:33 am
Interesting work, have you gotten a scope shot from the L2 side? Is it still an ac wave form? I kind of think that's what we need to get it to work. Thanks for sharing, I'll try it when I get home, hopefully by then you can tell me what else your doing?

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 04:47:01 am
If the cells polarity switched with each pulse, wouldn't that be equivalent to the steam resonator? In the sales manual Stan states that there is both a static and alternating field being applied to the cell. I don't understand how that one would work?

Yes, I was just about to point that out. In the Steam Resonator circuit, the gate pulses make the transistor switch the polarity on the plate, much like a H-bridge circuit. The voltage acts much like AC, but pulsed in a way to limit current. As you can test with AC voltage, it will not fracture the water but it will heat it up pretty fast. With tests that I have done with 120vac, I was able to super heat the water from room temp. to over 220 degrees in a matter of minutes. Here is a scope shot of what the output of the Steam Resonator pulses should look like.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/steam_resonator_pulse.jpg)



Am I correct in saying that the steam resonator design still uses a feedback coil and ultimately uses the same drive circuit that the resonant cavity does?
My theory on this is due to the fact that in Stan's steam resonator patents and other diagrams, he makes sure to show that the 'dielectric property of water' has to be tuned into on the steam resonator as well. Would  the only major difference between the resonant cavity coil and the steam resonator coil be that it is missing the chokes? Since we are heating the water and not splitting it? It makes sense to me...
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 06:27:17 am
It's a little different than that, chokes are still used for voltage gains and amp restriction, What you need is a high voltage field that switchers polarity. I think there is an array of ways you could produce this effect
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 10:15:03 am
Voltage Wave-Guide   Memo WFC 427

VIC Voltage Sync-Pulse Circuit
resume
Voltage Sync-Pulse Gated Frequency, forming Voltage Pulse Burst Wave as to Traveling Voltage Wave-Action  of opposite voltage polarity (+/-) of equal Voltage-Pulse Amplitudes (+Vpp/- Vpp) are zero reference to electrical ground state (OV) by placing Amp Inhibitor Circuit (860)  between electrical ground (OV) and Center Tap of Dual Bifilar Secondary Pickup Coils, as illustrated in (840) of Figure (8-10). By doing so, Balance Phasing of opposite voltage intensity (+Vpp / - Vpp) is accomplished without experiencing current influxing caused by differential variances where Negative Voltage Peak Potential (-Vpp) is less than Positive Voltage Peak Potential (+Vpp) or Vise Versa ... allowing Inductor Resonant Choke Coils Electromagnetic Fields Intensity (+Z2 / -Z3) to be, in turn, free of Electromagnetic variances of intensity (Z2 - Z3). This non-voltage shift (Balance Phasing of opposite Voltage Potential) helps prevents atom displacement during "Snapping-Action" by which "Resonant Electrical Stress" of opposite electrical polarity (RU/RU' - ST/ST') is applied equally across Water Molecule (s) (85) to propagate either Static (585) or Dynamic (612) Electrical Charging Effect (s) at elevated Voltage Peak Potential (s).

This tell you that the wave form is simply a balanced unipolar pulse train... not two ac signal 180° apart.

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 18:36:14 pm
Yeah I can see that's how it's supposed to work according to this memo, what I'm more interested in is why Tony and others are getting an AC single? We know what Stan had built himself from Don's info and it doesn't seem to be drastically different from what many of us have built.

Also can you explain the bifiliar secondary? I'm not sure I really understand that one.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 19:22:33 pm
Because they are inputing ac or had unbalance in the cell for this the matching resistor is needed, There can't be ac across the cell...  a diode helps but is not enough the circuit must be in perfect balance for the unipolar pulses to show up. all conditions must be match, all parasitic elements.

The bifilar is a method for maximize coupling inductance and capacitance...

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 23:00:09 pm
Because they are inputing ac or had unbalance in the cell for this the matching resistor is needed, There can't be ac across the cell...  a diode helps but is not enough the circuit must be in perfect balance for the unipolar pulses to show up. all conditions must be match, all parasitic elements.

The bifilar is a method for maximize coupling inductance and capacitance...

We are inputting pulsed DC square waves, not AC. Anybody that knows anything about inductors/coils, knows that they dont work with straight line DC. When you use pulsed DC and get resonance, the output will always be an AC signal.
If you look at the "wave-burst" diagram, you can see that the output is clearly two 180* sine waves. Stan says the voltages are opposite to each other (meaning 180*).
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 14, 2011, 23:09:04 pm
actually not 180 but 0° in phase just like a resistie circuit
I mean the unipolar pulses that create the step charging effect. I know this because the current wave form of the cell in the simulation is perfect replica of the voltage wave form in the pulse forming network. unipolar pulses exact the same as meyer drawings... the resonant voltage is completely other thing, this ac sets on and off the unipolar pulses.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 00:40:01 am
sebs, have you ever heard of DC piggy backing with AC?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 01:01:51 am
Bubz, that's what it sounds like to me
Sebs is that what you mean by unipolar pulses and ac resonant voltage? This would be like having a static and alternating field?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 16:25:13 pm
I simply arranged everything just like stan said, including all parasitic effects of all components.

The unipolar pulses are independent of the frequency. the inputed frequency sets up the train of unipolar pulses...

I simply added a diode in the circuit across the secondary, but connected after the other diode in series...

Well its simply a transient effect so the components must be thought to generate this high frequency harmonics...

thats not all however that is needed to make it to work...


HI Seb.
Can you give a picture how you  connected the diode.
thank
andy
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 01:05:36 am
Never heard of it.

Yes static and dynamic...

 one in series with the secondary and the other with arrow countering the first and closing the circuit. like a full wave bridge rectifier but having only the two positive diodes... The chokes are simply connected as stan schematic.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 01:21:29 am
Hi Seb,

I too cannot get my head around the diodes as you describe them.  How is the second diode connected again?  A picture would be helpful, much obliged.  I'm now running 8.5kv with my vic with little gas.

kb
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 09:18:56 am
Hi Seb,

I too cannot get my head around the diodes as you describe them.  How is the second diode connected again?  A picture would be helpful, much obliged.  I'm now running 8.5kv with my vic with little gas.

kb

Can you give the schematic of your circuit?
thank
andy
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 11:11:20 am
Hi Seb,

I too cannot get my head around the diodes as you describe them.  How is the second diode connected again?  A picture would be helpful, much obliged.  I'm now running 8.5kv with my vic with little gas.

kb

WOW is the 8.5kv across the water gap?
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 16:33:44 pm
squegging i guess

Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 17:37:57 pm
Many thanks Sebos .
andy
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 17:40:49 pm
Seb,

Thanks for the drawing.  The probe is put to the positive plate only, I will not ruin my oscope by trying across the plates to negative.  It is accurate I believe.  The diode and mosfet speed are factors to getting higher PTP peaks.  I did get over 15kv for awhile but had a nice blue crackling short going on near the side of a coil.  When I fixed that it went to 8.5kv.  We need to insulate better for over 5kv
is what i am learning.

Ferrite is the only way to go.  All other core materials do not de-magnetize fast enough and give lower ptp voltage than ferrite.  I use eight ferrite rods in a staight balun inside three 1000' 28 gauge bobbins staight off the shelf for the secondarys and a 100' 21 gauge wrapped over the center primary in the middle of the three coils on the eight inch core. 

kb
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 19:05:26 pm
TonyW,

I tested the continuity of my insulated WFC today.

Before I applied power to the cell I measured continuity each way (got a beep both ways).
Then I connected a 12VDC power supply to the cell for a few seconds.
Then I disconnected the power supply and measured continuity once again and only got continuity (beep) when the polarity of my probes was
the same as the power supply which was previously connected.

I think this is simply due to polarization, and the electron collecting at the positive plate. Not sure how long it would take for the relaxation to occur but I'm guessing at that point continunity would show each way again.
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 21:25:56 pm
I just finished testing sebos extra diode on my setup.If my choke coils are on the same core as the primary and seconary,it doesn't work.
But if I have my choke coils on a seperate core, than yes I get half rectified unipolar pulses at the cell,but not the double frequency unipolar pulses.
More testing needs to be tried.Which brings me to another question,I'll post it in a new post here.
Don
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 16, 2011, 23:26:21 pm
Wish I had a good oscilloscope to see what i'm doing here...

The diodes are acting... the blocking diode allow the pulse to charge the network and the switching diode close the blocking diode further for keep the cell from discharge.

The unipolar should work with the coils on the same core if the polarities are as showed, cause they shouldn't interact at all. Except by increasing the distributed capacitance of the pulse forming network which actually change the frequency of the pulses. Also it would be able to increase the frequency of the potential applied..
Title: Re: Understanding the VIC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2012, 14:43:49 pm
HMS, in one of Stan's patents he writes about the Sec., L1 & L2, each being wrapped with a ratio of 10:1 compared to the primary. This would make the summation of the coils a 30:1 step-up. I mentioned this back last year, but I guess nobody paid me any attention. Stan says that with 12v input to the primary, you will get 360v at the output of the chokes.

Now, the thing that we all need to understand about the cell is this, the cell will act almost as a dead short with having a resistance around 200 - 250 ohms. What Stan was doing or attempting to do is make the cell act as a true capacitor. It will act as a really bad leaky capacitor, but once you, as Stan says, tune into the dielectric value of water, only then it will act as a real true capacitor! Like I stated earlier in this thread, the water has a dielectric of 78%, which is non-conductive. So at a certain frequency you will nullify the 22% conductivity and tune into the 78% non-conductive part of water and the voltage will rise dramatically with no current leakage!

Hi,

Maybe stupid question, but is it possible that I step-charged the connected scope probes  :-[
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2488.msg23226.html#msg23226

When I tune the PULSE and the GATE frequency I see the step-charge scope shot image.
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2488.0;attach=11380)
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2488.0;attach=11408)
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2488.0;attach=11380)(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2488.0;attach=11408)

Interesting the 22% conductivity and tune into the 78% non-conductive part of water !!!

When I connect one plate to the positive choke the UNIPOLAR offset is higher, from -84V to -28V for the positive choke!!!!

Problem is when my WFC is attached to both chokes I have only AC! I needed to tune the PULSE frequency to get this amplitude higher. The WFC has 200 - 250 ohms (RAIN WATER). 180 degrees is now lost due the really bad leaky capacitor as a dead short!!!

Ideas?

Regards