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Stanley Meyer => Stan Meyers system 3 => Topic started by: spintronic on August 12, 2011, 01:12:06 am

Title: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 01:12:06 am
I have been messing around with meyers vic for 8 months now, there had to be a answer, well lads its been cracked so fill ya boots.
This is a cut n paste from another site where i go under the name rizla
 
After building so many variations that just dont work i sat back and asked the question what is happening with meyers longitudal primary. Well mainstream science has no answer, so i dug a little deeper and uncovered the spin orbit of electrons. This creates emf in transformers, the angle of the magnetic flux affects the spin orbit of electrons and so the amount of induced emf. I was finding some answers.
 
Things got more interesting when i uncovered the fact that different metals have different effects when the electron orbits are manipulated by magnetic flux. In iron wire they form tiny magnets, they have a north and south pole they can attract and repel, i now have the effect meyer describes in his patents. 
take a look at this site
 
http://www.asdn.net/asdn/electronics/spintronics.shtml (http://www.asdn.net/asdn/electronics/spintronics.shtml)
 
What it says is ferrous metals can have each atom give a 1 or 0 state, its a typical spintronics site, you have to look thru a lot to get the full picture.
The 1 or 0 are actually north and south poles, this is unique property of ferrous metals and it does not just apply at a nano level unless you wish to manipulate each atom individually.
 
First theorised around 1860 then proven in 1920 the spin orbit of electrons is where electronics meets magnetism, this science has been around a long time but not common knowledge.
 
I located some insulated iron based wire, after a number of experiments i found that a iron wire vic works, the mystery is over. Also the primary is not dual bi-directional longitudal wrap, it is a normal winding.
A recent test shows copper wire for the primary works but all other coils have to be a suitable ferrous wire like iron. Stainless, even 300 grade, is a poor choice due to electron scattering. Note as well the primary must be very tight and generate a uniform magnetic field (i mean a perfect uniform magnetic field) or current will leak out. A primary and secondary is all thats needed for testing to start with, this should read zero amps on a meter that measures down to 10uA with a short circuit. You can now wire in the inhibit and charge choke one at a time while checking for current leakage. If the primary is not wound correct you will notice the difference the inhibit choke makes in reduceing current while the charge choke adds more current.

So after building your vic you may well wonder why this has been such a problem, as you can see the patents have been altered and we have all been building crap that will never work, 4 years of running round in circles. Not only that but the spin orbit of electrons science has been hidden for about 80 years, it had to be suppressed or water fuel technology would be impossible to stop.
 
Happy days
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 04:00:16 am
Hi spintronic.


Just a fast responce. Could you do a reply with readings of the transformer and perhaps some images, also the core used - permeability and magnetic flux values allongside wire gage and wraps. This would help even further.


Thank you
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 05:12:10 am
hi iontruster
 
Yes a step by step guide with more info n pics would be a easier read for many, only people who have tried to build the vic from his vic matrix patent will fill in the gaps straight away. This is still in early development stages calculations of any sort have not been done, they probably will be needed to get high gas yield from a wfc. It has been try it and see what happens. The way i approached this was it`s 4 coils of wire, what do i have to do to make it work.
I use .63mm wire, other sizes will work. I havent found a need for flux gauges.

 
You need to look at meyers vic matrix patent, the copper wire is replaced by iron wire for secondary and chokes. The primary is a normal winding not as described in his patent. Have you seen the pictures of the vic spools? You need to build something that looks like that.
 
http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1267 (http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1267)
 
these pictures do not show his primary spool that fits in the middle.
 
I use a large flyback transformers ferrite core (large for modern designs)
It is driven with a simple darlington transistor config, some diodes and signal generator for basic function test, nothing complicated.
 
basically i am telling you what you need to alter to get his vic working. I will try to find time for a step by step guide however its a matter of time now before building his vic technology becomes common knowledge, the tube system, steamresonator ect will follow.  ;D
 
like i say this is tried and tested and 100% correct, people will build this and find it works. They can alter already built vics to work.
 
Read thru his vic matrix patent and ask about anything thats not clear.
 
 8)
 
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 05:45:41 am
Yea this technology dealing  with the spin-up (1) or spin-down (0) is currently being implemented into the next generation of Computers.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 06:42:57 am
i spent 2 weeks reading thru that nano gobble-degook garbage , gave me a real headache
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 20:10:25 pm
all,
I had been playing with some iron wire vics a ways back and was wondering how you guys keep em cool and not smoking the place up?
This info may have me return to the ideas I had using iron wire.  I'd like to find some teflon coated stuff.
I'm playing around, for observation's sake, with some soft iron twisty stuff that is paper coated and I coat that with varnish prior to wrapping a core....
 
kb
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 00:20:20 am
interesting, i guess u can see how even if the primary is not wound tight enough the inhibit choke reduces current?. If the secondary is wound and wired as tesla pancake coils further reduces current? As the primary warms and expands the current out reduces? the tighter the primary is wound the less current out. can you give us some more info on what you have been doing?
 
I have wound a small coil setup to test, its makes sense for the first go, if it did not work theres less time and effort put in. It did work, split water meyer style with tiny bubbles no gunk and zero current to the tubes. It was wound with a iron primary and 16v supply, it got warm but no smoke, what have u been doing to set the place on fire? Copper wire looks like the way to go for the primary with less heat from my first test and as soon as i get my winding kit made i shall post the results of iron v copper primary.
 
kickback the primary needs to be closely wound, thick insulation could cause problems and the paper may give capacitance between coils that may or may not be a problem.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2011, 06:54:19 am
I have just confirmed a earlier observation the iron primary induces over x2 more current than the same size copper primary. This has not been tested on a normal transformer just my vic with loose wound primary (leaky). I am not expecting much in replys so i will just say this, if you build a vic or anything based on technology like the 8xa circuit out of all copper you are wasteing your time, 4 years of building stuff that don`t work or of little use proves it.
 
Resonance has been a source of confusion with meyers patents. I have identifyed alterations in his patents and the use of resonance has been referred to in a number of places it should not be.
The resonance talked of in meyers wfc for example refers to the freedom of movement of hydroxyl ions in water that needs to be tuned into for high gas yield, this comes from a independent evaluation of meyers wfc. http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl)
 
So much mis-information about meyers technology for so many years has left people not knowing what they are doing.
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2011, 11:56:59 am
I have just confirmed a earlier observation the iron primary induces over x2 more current than the same size copper primary. This has not been tested on a normal transformer just my vic with loose wound primary (leaky). I am not expecting much in replys so i will just say this, if you build a vic or anything based on technology like the 8xa circuit out of all copper you are wasteing your time, 4 years of building stuff that don`t work or of little use proves it.
 
Resonance has been a source of confusion with meyers patents. I have identifyed alterations in his patents and the use of resonance has been referred to in a number of places it should not be.
The resonance talked of in meyers wfc for example refers to the freedom of movement of hydroxyl ions in water that needs to be tuned into for high gas yield, this comes from a independent evaluation of meyers wfc. http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl)
 
So much mis-information about meyers technology for so many years has left people not knowing what they are doing.

Hi Spintronic,

Welcome here at ionizationx  :)
I can follow what your are explaining here.
Is it possible that you publish some pictures of your iron wire tests? Maybe scope-shots?
Would help others a lot with getting an idea on what you are researching.

One question from me is about your statement to tune into the hydroxyl ion.
First, my idea was that in such setup, to tune into the H+ ion and not the HO ion.
Maybe you can explain why you choose the HO ion?


Steve



Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2011, 16:48:32 pm
What kind of iron alloy are you using for the wire?

Soft magnetic iron wire seems to be hard to find.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 00:20:11 am
iron wire anyone?
http://www.americanelements.com/femiw.html (http://www.americanelements.com/femiw.html)
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 00:52:16 am
Hi stevie and mr h2o

I can see what your saying, i shall sort something out. All u need is a large enough ferrite core or grain oriented silicon steel core, machine your spools and populate with iron wire. Only the primary is a critical winding and a problem. I will post a few pics of what i am useing and a circuit diagram.
 
Heres a link for some iron wire, its not ideal but works and is cheap (about £2.50 for 40 metres). Garden wire and others like it are a bit naff.
 
http://www.crazywireco.co.uk/acatalog/Iron_Wires.html (http://www.crazywireco.co.uk/acatalog/Iron_Wires.html) or the other just posted
 
Pure iron should give best results, but yes i agree it`s a b*tch to find and when you find it the cost is £75 for 5 metres so thats simply not happening for me.
 
Does everyone get the spintronic science as far as meyers technology is concerned?
 
The wfc document explains how the chemical reaction works, not sure it answers your question stevie, the document was released well before meyers death and appears unaltered and would be difficult to alter haveing never been held under national security. Resonance is not used as current restriction in the vic as implied in the patents, it is used to trigger the explosive gas release. The details of the chemical reaction are beyond me  :(
 
before i clear off the 8xa circuit, if i wind a primary first on each spool (single layer) then on top of each primary wind the other coils, secondary and so on, i believe i have the basis of his older technology, what do you think stevie?

 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 02:44:37 am
Spintronic articles relates to nano science it`s nano techno babble, with a little patience we can piece together usefull information.
 

Spin-polarized currents flow well in magnetic materials, but when they enter non-magnetic materials the electrons begin to lose their spin polarization in a process called spin-flip scattering.
source http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion (http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion)
comment
copper (non magnetic) is crap.
 
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/spin.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/spin.html)
This covers the boys that first proved the spin orbit theory
 
Spintronics is an advanced form of electronics that harnesses not just the electrical charge of electrons (as in conventional electronics) but also a property called spin that makes electrons act like tiny bar magnets
source  http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html (http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html)
comment
This is the one we like
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 03:32:09 am
alright,
I wound a quick and dirty 8xa bifilar with paper coated garden wire about as big as my fist, sloppy for sure, on a 1"x 3" iron powder epoxy mix core.
result...  more gas than ever before at 10 volts and 5ma and not much in the way of high voltage spike...  clean looking square waves out..
this meyer thing may get interesting again, lol
 
kb
 
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 03:44:15 am
Spin,
 
Thanks for the iron wire source.  $4 airmail and 4 roles at 40 meters each for a grand total of  $8.97, on the way, in for a dime in for a dollar.. chuckle
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 04:31:57 am
i should get shares in that bas**ard company ;D  there must be one similiar in america
 
find a easy way of getting that primary wound perfect for me dude, the vic has to be zero amps out.
no bends,kinks or twist in the magnetic field of the primary. it needs to be compressed and as you wind your coil on the spool and compress it one part will push down further than the other causeing a bend in the wire. It`s a pain in the arse.
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 16:35:40 pm
Hi stevie and mr h2o

I can see what your saying, i shall sort something out. All u need is a large enough ferrite core or grain oriented silicon steel core, machine your spools and populate with iron wire. Only the primary is a critical winding and a problem. I will post a few pics of what i am useing and a circuit diagram.
 
Heres a link for some iron wire, its not ideal but works and is cheap (about £2.50 for 40 metres). Garden wire and others like it are a bit naff.
 
http://www.crazywireco.co.uk/acatalog/Iron_Wires.html (http://www.crazywireco.co.uk/acatalog/Iron_Wires.html) or the other just posted
 
Pure iron should give best results, but yes i agree it`s a b*tch to find and when you find it the cost is £75 for 5 metres so thats simply not happening for me.
 
Does everyone get the spintronic science as far as meyers technology is concerned?
 
The wfc document explains how the chemical reaction works, not sure it answers your question stevie, the document was released well before meyers death and appears unaltered and would be difficult to alter haveing never been held under national security. Resonance is not used as current restriction in the vic as implied in the patents, it is used to trigger the explosive gas release. The details of the chemical reaction are beyond me  :(
 
before i clear off the 8xa circuit, if i wind a primary first on each spool (single layer) then on top of each primary wind the other coils, secondary and so on, i believe i have the basis of his older technology, what do you think stevie?

@ Spintronic
About winding secondairys over primary's i can say that that seems to do something. I seen certain OU coils being winded like that. The last i seen was done with cores between the windings. The effect with iron wire would be that the wire it self becomes magnetic. Some sort of saturation.
Its a brand new approach  :)
Looks like KB already made some kind of prove of concept!

@ KB
Whats this KB? Having some nice results but not sharing any video of it????  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Steve
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2011, 23:08:38 pm
Steve,
I think it is still simple electrolysis.  8XA with iron wire.  My vic transformer make nice voltage peaks and limits current almost to zero yet makes no gas.  The iron wire experiments continue... 
here's a question...  when meyer's diagram of five pulses on and an off gap is viewed, what does it show?  is it five individual pulses from a pwm or is it five resonant "bulbs" from a resonant frequency situation as seen on the oscope?
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2011, 04:18:00 am

The 8xa circuit is a variation of the vic matrix circuit it uses the same technology. its just a matter of time when i decide to give it a go before it is made to work
You just need to apply the basic rules.
 
1) Primary flux aligns electron orbit spin in surrounding coils
2) electrons then behave as tiny magnets in ferrous metals with the correct magnetic field applied
3) the north and south poles of each atom attract to each other causeing electron clustering rather than electron flow, i do not know for certain this is how electron clustering happens but i do know it works.

lets look again at the science that makes this happen
 
Spintronics is an advanced form of electronics that harnesses not just the electrical charge of electrons (as in conventional electronics) but also a property called spin that makes electrons act like tiny bar magnets
source  http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html (http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html)
 
So why not use copper wire? (non magnetic, non ferrous)
 
Spin-polarized currents flow well in magnetic materials, but when they enter non-magnetic materials the electrons begin to lose their spin polarization in a process called spin-flip scattering.
source http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion (http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion)
in Copper wire each atom cannot form a north or south pole so meyers stuff will not work.
 
The tiny magnets formed will attract or repel, opposites attract likes repel, so we can start to see how meyers transformer works, like the inhibit choke for example.
 
Here is a new look on meyers vic with some real science to back it up and proven to work. from this we can build his tube system 6 tube assemblys can run a 1.6l engine, The steam resonator and his injector system the complete energy solution. Without his vic none of this can be built.
 
@steve
I am thinking the electrons in the secondary align to form a north south poles (electron clustering) as explained above, the primary can be copper or iron so they do not have to be attracted to the primary inorder to work. If you apply the basic rules at the top of the post there is no reason why the 8xa circuit cannot be made to work. if everyone (thats not a lot) posts replies based on this science we can have less confusion about meyers technology.
kb seems very young to me (no offence kb) and does not come across to me as understanding anything i have posted on my thread.
 
 
 

 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2011, 07:56:58 am
"kb seems very young to me (no offence kb) and does not come across to me as understanding anything i have posted on my thread"
and what purpose did this comment serve you?  if anything you've betrayed your youth, in maturity and wisdom...  it IS offensive
my comments and questions are not made to satisfy your apparent sense of superiority in any measure
....make a simple question on your thread to the group about the five pulses diagram and this is the result?
when you have done it then I'll bow, until then I'll keep learning and consider ideas from all here and elsewhere including yours
in addition, however, I shall not refrain from asking questions for fear of insult or insolence
kb
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2011, 09:24:34 am
@kb
no sense of superiority, no egos, no need for aggression or offensive
no need to delete posts either
I said the wire you are useing is unsuitable and asked several questions about your setup, i got no answer and now you are posting results that the iron vic (8xa circuit) you built does not work. you could not of got the uk wire in 24hr let alone machine and populate them leaveing me confused as to what you are doing. this thread is trying to get a better picture of the science as well as the build which you have shown no interest, its what this thread is about.
I am sorry u have taken deep offence, of course i do not know who you are so my opinion is from your posts only.
lets leave it there
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2011, 14:56:52 pm
Spintronic,
 
I did not delete any posts.  I thanked you for the wire source.  okay dokay, the twisty wire vic worked for the purpose of the experiment that was intended when I wound it.
 
regards,
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2011, 22:41:17 pm
We are all adults here.Sligtly crazy and a little bit of ego's.
If we didnt had those quality's, then we wouldnot have such hobby like this.
And do not forget the fact that writing posts or emails can be interpretated different as that we would like, sometimes......

KB and ST are reseachers who add good things to our quest..
Its amazing that we still learn new things!

Steve
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 02:57:17 am
@stevo
wise words indeed, you remind me of either a boxing referee or the instructor from karate kid, maybe a bit of both.

there is a number of people looking at this page, but i have no idea if any have looked into what i am saying. The science is there i have not picked it out of the aether, i have given you links to research, how about a little feedback. The primary winding is very important anybody want to go through it?
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 03:14:43 am
The purpose of spirally wrapping the choke coils in the Tri-Coil Configuration is to minimize current leakage and to maximize the coupling coefficient to where as the L1 magnetic flux lines will be cut by the L2 flux lines.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 03:49:31 am
hi tony
 
i have a customer, but i disagree.., the only flux cutting secondary or chokes is from the primary. remember there is no current flowing in the circuit due to electron clustering, all electrons in the primary magnetic field align forming tiny bar magnets, they will have a magnetic field is this what you are talking about?
 
dude u look scary in that pic  :o
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 08:33:04 am
HI Spintronic
Many thanks for sharing Your knowlege. My english is bad.
Can you clear this to my- only primary coil must be the iron wire , secondary and two resonant coils can be the copper wire , please?
I like learn from you.
thank
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 08:46:42 am
no problem andy
 
secondary and choke coils must be iron
 
primary iron or copper, copper still under test
 
hope that helps  :D
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 08:48:44 am
why are you saying that the coils need to be iron and not copper?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 09:10:28 am
Thank Spintronic
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:00:56 am
hi tony
 
ok
 
The source of information is hard work at first, it gets easier.
 
Ferrous and non ferrous metals have very different propertys
 
Spin-polarized currents flow well in magnetic materials, but when they enter non-magnetic materials the electrons begin to lose their spin polarization in a process called spin-flip scattering.
source http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion (http://www.spintronics-info.com/technical/cold_copper_causes_spin_diffusion)
in Copper wire each atom cannot form a north or south pole so meyers vic will not work. copper wire has not worked for over 4 years now.
 
Spintronics is an advanced form of electronics that harnesses not just the electrical charge of electrons (as in conventional electronics) but also a property called spin that makes electrons act like tiny bar magnets
source  http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html (http://leebor2.741.com/spintronic.html)
inorder to stop current flow the electrons must form perfectly aligned magnets, they stick together (north to south poles) this is refered to as electron clustering. It is not 100% clear to me the physics but i know this works.
 
the magnetic field from the primary must be perfectly uniform. if not it will leak. even a leaky primary can be shown clearly to restrict current. a correctly wound primary will read zero amps on a multimeter that measure down to 10uA (test done on my vic).
 
Any questions please post, i dont know everything unfortunately. i know this works.
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:08:01 am
But that is what the closed-loop core does. It maintains the polarization with in the closed-loop and minimizes the leakage.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:13:55 am
i think we are on different pages.... explain
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:25:01 am
are u useing fancy words for a magnetic core? i shall give u some time to reply, if it makes sense to me all the better. we need to be on the same page
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:28:02 am
This is straight out of one of my electronics books from school. "The effects of a closed magnetic loop is maximum concentration of magnetic lines in the magnet with minimum lines outside the core. This type of electromagnet has maximum strength in the iron ring & little flux outside. As a result, the toroidal magnet is less sensitive to induction from external magnetic fields & has little magnetic effect outside the coil. Note that, even if the winding is over only a small part of the ring, practically all the flux is in the iron core because its permeability is so much greater than that of air. The small part of the field in the air is called leakage flux."
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 10:35:30 am
Here is how the core & coils interact.

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/coil&core.jpg)
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 13:41:32 pm
Look to me the primary, pickup, secondary and chokes are the same type of material.
If it is iron wire it has more resistance than copper wire.
If you look at the resistance measurements of the VIC (Dynodon provided) than you go for copper wire. (you don't want amps in the primary because the wire thickness and current is 'wasted' as heat!!!)

Material     Element/Alloy       (ohm-cmil/ft)    (microohm-cm)
Iron --------- Element -------------- 57.81 --------- 9.61 
Copper ------- Element -------------- 10.09 --------- 1.678

What the copper wire is doing is shake (voltage) the inner core material and generate magnetic pulse fields.
"Current (magnetic field) is the opposite side of voltage potential (electrostatic)"
The pulsating field is restricting the amps, what SM explains!!!
The closed loop core is providing an adding magnetic field to all the coils, so restricting more current on the right pulse frequency. That's why the current is going down on resonance.

That's what I think.  :)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 17:38:31 pm
Hi spintronic
Q:
the magnetic field from the primary must be perfectly uniform. if not it will leak. even a leaky primary can be shown clearly to restrict current. a correctly wound primary will read zero amps on a multimeter that measure down to 10uA (test done on my vic).
 
Any questions please post, i dont know everything unfortunately. i know this works.
end Q.

 Can you clear to my How to make the primary coil correctly in order to generate magnetic field perfectly uniform.
You mean zero amps flow thru the primary coil?
Thank for ansver
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 20:35:36 pm
The Primary windings see the impedance's of the feedback, secondary, L1, and L2 coils. So when at resonance, the primary impedance must match the impedances of all these coils in order to get a 100% transfer of energy. As for the current, once you get a significant amount of current flowing through the primary, you wont get the resonance that Stan talks about. The current will stop resonance for happening and you will have an out of resonant condition.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 18, 2011, 00:14:37 am
Hi andy
First follow the science links on electron spin orbit and understand the basics they talk of, this is important.
The spin orbits must all line up perfectly to do this the primary magnetic field must have no bends, kinks, gaps ect. It must be a very tight close wound perfect coil. not easy. The best way is to machine the spools so there is no gap formed as you first wind the wire on, you can then compress the wire without a bend appearing.
Failure to do this will mean not all electrons align. The electrons that do not will leak out into the circuit or in other words create emf. 

The good thing is we can see even a coil that leaks shows current restriction, for example by reversing the inhibit coil 178mA flows, putting the wires back the current drops to 20mA, voltage out is unaffected either way.
 
hope that helps andy with english not being your first language
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 18, 2011, 00:48:34 am
@webmug
Iron wire primary will generate more heat as you say, it also induces more current.
 
@tony
The thing is tony we can discuss what you are saying for many years to come, as they have for the last 4 years. If i believed what you are saying had value i would be all ears, i do mean that, but so many have built it or variations of with no tube system to show for there work, or steam resonator or injector system. Current flows hydrolysis or some slightly novel gas method of little use is the result. Time has proved this beyond any reasonable doubt. I have built meyers copper vic, it did not work, i could not make it work and i cannot put any sort of spin on it to make it still look a promising avenue of research to continue with. You clearly are a skilled technician and if you can get your copper vic to work as meyer described i will post some beers straight to your doorstep.  ;)
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 18, 2011, 01:20:35 am
@spintronic

I think maybe we are on the same page.

The iron wire on the secondary and choke acts as part of the transformer core.  It gets magnetized, the electron orbits align themselves at this time. 

When the orbits are aligned, they have a polarity, a positive and negative pole.  The magnetic field created by the primary winding locks the electrons into place, because opposites attract, therefore no current flows.

This may be oversimplified but I think it fits the electron bounce that Stan describes.  Electron spin theory is new to me, but still corresponds with my interpretation of what Stan wrote.

Maybe another way to do it is make a toroid core out of the iron wire which would be the secondary winding and choke, then wrap the primary on top of it.    The leakage may be easier to contain because of the toroid configuration, but definetly harder to wind.


Without a doubt, there are always multiple ways of accomplishing a goal.  I think copper will work, but less efficient in a different winding configuration.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 18, 2011, 02:32:36 am
@h2o_splitter
 
Sounds to me like your starting to pick it up, in ferrous wire the electron spin forms tiny bar magnets. in copper the spin does not form magnets. copper can never work.  Like you say it fits with what meyer was talking about and now we can put some science behind it. I can see your putting the pieces together ,where there was darkness let there be light.
 
keep researching and dont forget to post what you find to help everyone.  8) 
 
think about it if magnets are formed in the secondary coil they can become "stuck" to each other if aligned north to south poles, electron clustering. It will give one end of the coil a north pole the other a south. Now add the inhibit choke that has formed north and south poles being in the same magnetic field with the same electron clustering effect. wire its south pole to the secondary south pole, would this not further reduce any current.
 
The more you think about it the more it makes sense.
 
Once i have spread the good news to enough it will be time to move on to meyers other kit.
A little more feedback is needed...
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 09:45:31 am
Here are some scope shots of my VIC Transformers outputs and as you can see the voltages are 180 degrees out of phase like Stan says they should be.

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11038.JPG)

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11039.JPG)

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11040.JPG)

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11041.JPG)

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/scope/SDC11042.JPG)

Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 10:33:58 am
not given much thought to waveforms out of the vic, working on getting a easy way of winding the primary for larger build. but with no current influx into the circuit current will not be 90 degrees out of phase, it will not be there.
 
There is one fundemental problem you have with the copper wire vic, it is impossible to restrict current and keep full voltage or anywhere near full voltage across the wfc. to make matters worse current flowing, even teny weny amounts stop meyers water splitting process. game over bud. people have tried for so long a time and failed. i have seen the technology i describe work with my own eyes, i have not made a mistake, time will show this to true, unless your one of the MIB`s (men in black) in which case a wfc will be sitting in your front room. get working on that all copper vic or i will be downing those beers otherwise destined for your doorstep.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 11:05:50 am
That's not true, coils with copper wire can restrict current flow. It's not the wires DC resistance that restricts the current, it's the magnet fields that are generated with in the coil and the Inductive & Capacitance Reactance that restricts current flow. Not sure where you're getting your information about this. I've tested and demonstrated this current restricting effect. I made a coil for the 8XA circuit that had inductance around 3H for L1 and 2.5H for L2 and I got resonance with that setup. I was inputting around 10vdc through the choke and restricting current below 25mA and outputting voltage well over 1kv peak. The water was charged up well enough that I could place a light bulb next to the cell and it would light up. I guess you haven't figured out yet that the LC circuit works with both Series & Parallel Resonance. You have a Series Resonance between the Secondary, L1, and the Cell. You have Parallel Resonance between L1 & L2. Not sure if you know what the different effects are between Series & Parallel Resonance or not. I will give you a quick lease. Series Resonance will give you a minimum impedance at the resonance frequency and Parallel Resonance will give you maximum impedance at the resonant frequency. Minimum impedance mean no resistance (XL=XC) and maximum impedance means infinite resistance (Amp Restriction). Spintronic, do you have any background in electronics?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 12:02:33 pm
Tony
"  You have Parallel Resonance between L1 & L2. " is it true
or between L2 and the cell?
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 15:52:10 pm
Tony
If  I may ask a question or two.  Are your scope shots done with the two probes at the positive and negative plates so to speak?  Is your vic transformer wired and set up exactly like meyer's drawing of the four coils?  Or is it done with the 8XA coil?
I'd like to duplicate your inversed phase situation.
I've been trying various core materials and have found iron rebar rods for concrete works best so far. Thin strips of magnetic laminate steel are currently under testing.  I've been able to turn some steel bolts into nice permanent magnets after a short time.
Spintronic,
What are you trying for vic core materials?
Regards,
 
kickbackemf 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 18:35:02 pm
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 21:00:47 pm
@Andy, yea it looks to be parallel resonance between the L1 & L2 chokes.

@Kickbackemf, yea the shots are from the B+ and B- outputs to the plates/tubes. The VIC is wire up like Stan shows in his diagrams for the 5 coil VIC Transformer. I'm using a 2000 permeability ferrite core with 30ga. copper wire. Have you tried M27 laminates? Stan makes reference in his writings that it can be used for the 5 coil VIC Transformer.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 21:49:17 pm
Tony,
danka, wanted to be sure
I'll try to find some M27 material to work with.  Thanks for the tip from meyer's writings.  I've got some 28ga 1000' rolls to play with now.
 
regards, kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 23:34:36 pm
@Andy, yea it looks to be parallel resonance between the L1 & L2 chokes.

@Kickbackemf, yea the shots are from the B+ and B- outputs to the plates/tubes. The VIC is wire up like Stan shows in his diagrams for the 5 coil VIC Transformer. I'm using a 2000 permeability ferrite core with 30ga. copper wire. Have you tried M27 laminates? Stan makes reference in his writings that it can be used for the 5 coil VIC Transformer.
@Tony
Initial Permeability ( ui ) of 2000 is a high value and should be better for magnetic fields. Mine is 40. What is your core Saturation Flux Density ( B s ). Mine is 2300 Gauss. Residual Flux Density ( B r ) is 800 Gauss.
I'm using ferrite bars shape and glue them together so total specs are changed.
I also had same shape B+, B- signals, but not above/below +550Vmax and -560Vmin on a regular capacitor.

@kb
I tested laminated core and it didn't work, gave low voltage. Core is saturated too fast. Should go for ferrite core.

@outlawstc
Thanks for the video. 8)
I'm curious, will you give detail specs of that used core material?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 23:50:38 pm
@webmug, I'm not sure of all the specs, I'll have to get that info for ya.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2011, 00:31:27 am
@tony
 
it is impossible to give the wfc full voltage with no measurable <10uA current with the circuit u describe.
 
to form a magnetic field in L1 current must flow into the wfc then threw L2 back into secondary. no resonance or fancy windings/magnetic fields or techno talk can hide this. current will flow into the wfc and the cell becomes useless whatever you do. today i went out and counted the number of meyer water powered cars available, it was none.
i am sorry to bring the bad news after 4 years of trying to get it to work but copper wire is no good, i have explained why,i have explain what needs to be done to get meyers vic working, i have given you the science.
 
can we get back on track is everyone agreed the secondary and choke coils must be iron wire?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2011, 04:23:18 am
Spintronics,
1000 words...
the camera flash whited out the thin bubbles but they are there
used fine iron filings with epoxy core, 1000' 28ga secondary and chokes, unknown scrap primary, all copper
my iron wire will show up someday and I'll give that a try...
Tony,  I can't seem to find the way to get the inverted phases on b+ and b- on my scope
kb
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2011, 04:53:00 am
@kb
if current runs through your cell it will not work, u will get hydrolisis
 
@andy
the resonance refered to is explained here
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl)
the charge choke has to work in the frequency range of your cell for high gas yield , thats my understanding. it will still produce gas out of resonance. resonance has nothing to do with current restriction.
can u give me a idea of your setup.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2011, 06:15:09 am
spintronic,
 
yep, well understood, notice my 0-1 ampmeter on the positive lead, it rests below zero, the one on the right side is the input amps from the variace about .5 at about 50 volts... the primary wire small size keeps the input amps low,  I can run it up to over 100 volts and it still remains below zero, my small irfbc40 mosfet can't take it for very long though...  I'm in the market for a tougher mosfet, I like irfbc40 because they are super fast, 11ns rise time if I remember and cheap...
any mosfet suggestions?
kb
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2011, 02:45:35 am
@kb
 
very interesting, what you have done is wire 3 transformers coils in series with a almost short circuit output (wfc), any idea how it works? for the ammeter to go less than zero its either not calibrated, wired reverse terminals or your current is running in the wrong direction. I would stick a beefy trany in with good overall figures for now, plenty of surplus equipment knocking about with suitable components.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2011, 05:46:12 am
As i have said the primary magnetic field aligns surounding coils electrons so they form magnets that attract to each other (electron clustering)
 
We can see here how external fields affect electron spin.
 
When a piece of ferromagnetic material is placed into an external magnetic field, two things happen.
The spins in each domain shift so that the magnetic moments of the electrons become more aligned with the direction of the field.
Domains aligned with the field expand and take over regions previously occupied by domains aligned opposite to the field.
source http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm (http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm)

this covers permanent magnets but still has relevant information
 
"Instead, every electron is a tiny magnet due to its inherent magnetism (what we call electron spin).
Furthermore, the alignment of the electron spins makes a hunk of iron (magnetite) into a magnetic lodestone.
All atoms have electrons with electron spin and magnetic fields due to their orbits about the nucleus. But not all material is magnetic like the lodestone (ferromagnetic). If the electron spins of an atom's electrons are aligned oppositely, their magnetic fields cancel. That's what happens with tissue paper, flesh, or other non-ferromagnetic substances.
Each iron atom, on the other hand, has four electrons whose spin magnetism doesn't cancel. They line up. Aligned magnetic fields make matter magnetic.
Iron is a peculiar, remarkable substance. Its aligned-field electrons spontaneously couple and form small long-lasting domains. The spins inside these microscopic domains are almost perfectly aligned. Most domains, though, aren't aligned. In common un-magnetized iron, many domains are randomly oriented"
source http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-04-01-wonderquest_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-04-01-wonderquest_x.htm)

Some materials are unsuitable like copper here it explains why
 
Since all matter is made up of atoms and all atoms have electrons that are in motion, do all atoms have magnetic fields?
The answer to this question is yes and no. All the electrons do produce a magnetic field as they spin and orbit the nucleus; however, in some atoms, two electrons spinning and orbiting in opposite directions pair up and the net magnetic moment of the atom is zero. Remember that the direction of spin and orbit of the electron determines the direction of the magnetic field. Electron pairing occurs commonly in the atoms of most materials. In the experiment you observed a helium atom showing two electrons spinning and orbiting around the protons and neutrons of the nucleus. The two electrons are paired, meaning that they spin and orbit in opposite directions. Since the magnetic fields produced by the motion of the electrons are in opposite directions, they add up to zero. The overall magnetic field strength of atoms with all paired electrons is zero.
source http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Magnetism/electronpairing.htm (http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Magnetism/electronpairing.htm)
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2011, 09:35:43 am
but to form a magnetic field u have to have some current flow....without some current u have NO MAGNETIC FIELD!
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 21, 2011, 09:52:35 am
good job we have current going through the primary then,tony
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2011, 08:15:42 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-x3PVi8wF0&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-x3PVi8wF0&feature=share)
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2011, 20:59:57 pm
Nice video  :)  seems like there should still be an oscilliating  signal  on the week force between the pulling.... maybe not.  like the vid :)
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2011, 21:27:49 pm
T & S & W
I was able to get up way over 2kv with a new core material.  My iron filing epoxy cores limited me to 1500v at 50v in at .5a in.  I've had wires wrong before once and seen the amp meter go backwards below zero, LOL.
I took an old 110/220 step up tranny and tore the wires (look like aluminum) apart and soaked it in alcohol to loosen the shellack between the EI laminate strips.  They came apart nicely.  I cut out the wide center post strips and made a nice rectangular core much like meyers. I reschellacked the strips, assembled it inside the four coils and am testing now.
Sure wish I had a clue what "tuning into the dielectric of water" means.
The iron wire came.  I was almost 85% done with a tight close perfect wind and it slipped in my hand and unwound like a spring.  This is not as easy as winding copper that's for certain.  Finger nails with grooves in them still hurt today.
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 00:11:51 am
@tony
 
you claim you have a working vic, is that meyers vic or your own design? what output are u getting from your wfc and what size engine can you run?
 
@kb
 
the dielectric tuned into is explained in this doc
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36927148/WFCexpl)

 
meyer has said so many times his vic stops the influx of current, the video shows a phase shift, in order to get a phase shift current must lag behind voltage. there you go current is flowing in your circuit, but i am just repeating myself again.
 
if anyone wants to build the copper vic go ahead and knock yourself out but please post on one of the thousands of threads dedicated to it. I have had to many posts saying the copper vic is correct and not replying to any of my questions or points.
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 02:11:40 am
spin,
 
thanks much for the reference, much obliged.
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 02:19:25 am
spin, I've read that before from you but I need to read it about six more times...
do you believe that the iron wire chokes require perfect side by side wire wrapping or will a small bit of jumble be ok? I guess I'll find out.
I know, perhaps silly question but I'll need to build an apparatus to wind them as perfect as can be from what I'm experiencing by doing it from hand.
I have enough laminate strips left to build another vic with the iron wire.  Have you completed yours?
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 04:13:11 am
secondary and chokes are wound as the vic matrix patent says (this i believe is the design for injectors) the reason i use this design is the primary can be removed without unwinding any other coils,secondary and chokes are not perfect but still work so not a critical winding. primary has to create a perfect magnetic field.
 
When a piece of ferromagnetic material is placed into an external magnetic field, two things happen.
The spins in each domain shift so that the magnetic moments of the electrons become more aligned with the direction of the field.
Domains aligned with the field expand and take over regions previously occupied by domains aligned opposite to the field.
source http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm (http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm)

if you align the spin orbit so each magnetic moment faces north to south they will attract to each other causeing electron clustering, thats why the primary magnetic field must give a perfect uniform field. we have physics to explain what is happening. reading and understanding now can save time later.
 
in doc wfcexplain it says the freedom of movement of hydroxyl ions in water gives the resonant frequency your vic needs to tune into. one of the choke coils needs to operate around this frequency range. so i guess a formula involving tubes and there size (capacitance) plus centre frequency used should give you the ideal choke value to wind. this is the resonance meyer talks about and it gives you the high gas yield.
 
throw a bit of physics and chemistry in and meyer nonsense goes away, do u not agree?
 
 i have wound a mini vic, it worked zero current out and split water with no gunk forming. the primary winding is a problem i need a easy way to wind it. its slowing me up.
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 05:09:12 am
Tonywoodside,

Thank you for the video. I have a few questions though...

What causes the amplitude to modulate high and low?

How does the ac make it to the cap when the circuit
has a diode in it?

The reason why I am wondering is because I have
 built the circuit in multisim. I get ac across the cokes
and a step charging dc voltage across the water capacitor.
Seems to me the multisim version is working as it should, however
I must point out that multisim cannot replicate it exactly.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 05:39:56 am
hi hms776
 
your post is best put on tonys thread it is a little off topic here and muddles things, sorry to be a pain
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 08:42:24 am
@Spintronic, please do not continue on bashing Tony, He is a very knowledgeable person that has done a lot to move the WF tech forward. You state you have build a vic and produced gas at zero amps. Why not show a video of your achievements and some proof you are right? I will (and i am sure a lot of others) make a deep bow for you if you're right ....

Regards,
Sharky
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2011, 09:49:57 am
there is little conversation between us, he does not reply to my questions or points, i have not been been rude or obnoxious its just he is haveing a one way conversation. infact to stay on topic for this thread overall is a struggle. is it to much to ask to stay on topic? i post a point or question if u are interested we discuss, you can do the same and we can have a conversation. the information i have posted is new i have yet to piece together pics and documents and a better understanding of the science, anyone who thinks they can help then please do.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2011, 01:39:47 am

I will go over briefly what i have been saying on this thread.
By changeing the wire from copper to iron on meyers vic we get a very different effect.
Meyers vic is at its very basic 3 secondarys wired in series driven by a primary, if you go on a electronics forum and explain this can be made to give a full potential difference out while stopping the influx of current they will give you funny looks. No electronics design engineer will be able to build you such a device from meyers patents.
Could it be meyers vic as described in his patents has a fundemental floor?
What i have said is iron is unique in that each atom has a magnetic moment, that is each atom has a north and south pole. These atoms, or electron spin which gives this magnetism, can be manipulated by a external field. With this magnetic field each atom can be aligned to face each other north to south poles. They will then be attracted to each other giveing the effect know as electron clustering. In this state the influx of electrons into your circuit will be stopped.
 
Below is links showing us some basic physics involved, take the time to read the actual articles, you can start to pick out relevent information and piece together what i am saying.
We can see here how external fields affect electron spin.
 
When a piece of ferromagnetic material is placed into an external magnetic field, two things happen.
The spins in each domain shift so that the magnetic moments of the electrons become more aligned with the direction of the field.
Domains aligned with the field expand and take over regions previously occupied by domains aligned opposite to the field.
source http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm (http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys136d/modules/m7/material.htm)
this covers permanent magnets but still has relevant information
 
"Instead, every electron is a tiny magnet due to its inherent magnetism (what we call electron spin).
Furthermore, the alignment of the electron spins makes a hunk of iron (magnetite) into a magnetic lodestone.
All atoms have electrons with electron spin and magnetic fields due to their orbits about the nucleus. But not all material is magnetic like the lodestone (ferromagnetic). If the electron spins of an atom's electrons are aligned oppositely, their magnetic fields cancel. That's what happens with tissue paper, flesh, or other non-ferromagnetic substances.
Each iron atom, on the other hand, has four electrons whose spin magnetism doesn't cancel. They line up. Aligned magnetic fields make matter magnetic.
Iron is a peculiar, remarkable substance. Its aligned-field electrons spontaneously couple and form small long-lasting domains. The spins inside these microscopic domains are almost perfectly aligned. Most domains, though, aren't aligned. In common un-magnetized iron, many domains are randomly oriented"
source http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-04-01-wonderquest_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/aprilholladay/2005-04-01-wonderquest_x.htm)
Some materials are unsuitable like copper here it explains why
 
Since all matter is made up of atoms and all atoms have electrons that are in motion, do all atoms have magnetic fields?
The answer to this question is yes and no. All the electrons do produce a magnetic field as they spin and orbit the nucleus; however, in some atoms, two electrons spinning and orbiting in opposite directions pair up and the net magnetic moment of the atom is zero. Remember that the direction of spin and orbit of the electron determines the direction of the magnetic field. Electron pairing occurs commonly in the atoms of most materials. In the experiment you observed a helium atom showing two electrons spinning and orbiting around the protons and neutrons of the nucleus. The two electrons are paired, meaning that they spin and orbit in opposite directions. Since the magnetic fields produced by the motion of the electrons are in opposite directions, they add up to zero. The overall magnetic field strength of atoms with all paired electrons is zero.
source http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Magnetism/electronpairing.htm (http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/HighSchool/Magnetism/electronpairing.htm)
any points to be made on this post?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2011, 02:24:27 am
This is pretty much the same thing I was explaining in my post on "My Thoughts on How Meyer Split Water". This also takes place with the water molecule since it acts as a ferromagnetic. As the molecule is exposed to an external magnetic field it will change the Spin-Spin and Proton-Proton of the molecule. The Electrons orbit the nucleus at different rates and spin directions. When its exposed to the polarized magnetic field, the spin-spin will flip and align (Polarize). When the spin-spins align, it will cause the molecule to go from "ground state" to a higher energy state (excitation state). This excitation state is when the ground state electrons will move up to the next orbital shell and cause the electrons to be ejected from their orbital shells up in to the conduction band. Stan even show this happening in his book "The Birth of New Technology" figure 5-3 labeled "Energy Pumping Action" page 125. If the magnetic field is applied for a long period of time you can strip off all the electrons, but if you only apply the field for a short time period the molecule will return to its ground state and release photon energy. This is why Stan says in one of his videos, pulse for XX amount of time and then gate and release hydrogen for 90 seconds with no power applied. during this 90 seconds is when the water molecule is recovering and going back to ground state and releasing the photon energy which is then putting more power into the system and splitting more hydrogen and oxygen.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2011, 06:43:20 am
Hi Tony
"Energy Pumping Action" page 125 as Stan describes is done via electric field no magnetic field.
andy

Spintronic many thank to You.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2011, 16:13:40 pm
Hi Tony
"Energy Pumping Action" page 125 as Stan describes is done via electric field no magnetic field.
andy

Spintronic many thank to You.

If there's an electric field present, there is also a magnetic field present!
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2011, 16:53:56 pm
well, actually, page 127 does it better for me....
with all respectk,
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 25, 2011, 03:31:14 am
@tony
yea spin orbit is being used in gas and liquids, possibly part of the chemical reaction in the injectors. what do you think about aligning electron spin in ferrous metals?
 
do people reading this understand electron spin? i dont know.
 
@andy
What country are you from, just out of interest
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 25, 2011, 07:28:52 am
I'm from poland.
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 28, 2011, 10:36:31 am
Spintronic
If I wound primary coil  for example in four layers on the spool must be every layer be wound from left to right ? ( left right , left right , left right , left  right ) or can it be wound : ( left right , right left , left right , right left ) and of course all wound clockwise?
Must this rule of wound  be in use for made the secondary and two choke coils?
thank for your ansver
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 02:31:58 am
hi andy
 
keep it single layer if i understand you correctly. no this does not apply to the other coils. there is still more to learn like wire gauge, i think smaller wire size looks like a better option. with feedback being low i think a lot of people have given up a long time ago which is a shame.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 07:44:10 am
Spintronic
By " single " You mean only one layer for the primary coil or can be more than one layer for primary but all loop in layer wound clockwise and wound with progresion (every next loop)  in one direction ( from left to right ) on the spool?
mayby You understand my corectly?
thank
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 09:19:04 am
In the tri-coil (6-1) Stan has it wound the best way possible to give the best coupling between the Primary and Secondary/Choke combination. Just think of the secondary and chokes as a combined coil, basically thats what it is just separated by a diode. In a transformer configuration to get the best coupling you wont to divide you secondary up into two sections, an upper and lower section. The lower section should be placed closest to the core and then wrap your primary coil over that lower secondary section. After that you want to wrap your upper secondary section over the primary coil, this will give you the highest coupling possible. This is why Stan made the coil the way he did. Also by bifilar wrapping the lower secondary section (chokes) it will give you a greater potential difference magnification due to the currents flowing in the same parallel direction.

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/vicforinjectorwithcolor.jpg)

When Stan say dual wrapped bidirectional primary he means it should wrapped like in this image.

(http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y320/h2opower/BDwrap.gif)
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 12:23:14 pm
hi, might seem a silly question but, did stan use the vic coil in the injector setup?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 19:58:07 pm
yes, this VIC coil was used only in the injector setup. At resonance if should put out as Meyer states 20kv - 40kv and even higher.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 29, 2011, 21:32:59 pm
Andy
Here's a vic I wound last night watching football.  8mm ferrite rod 8 inches long.  Top third single layer iron wire choke, middle third single layer iron wire primary, bottom third single layer iron wire choke.  Secondary single layer complete rod length in red 28 gauge copper.
Works OK for gas, when run up to 50v in it stays at 80ma, probably needs more iron wire for chokes to further reduce amps.  12v in, 30ma at tube, 750v ptp at 10khz.
The iron wire experiments continue.  Ferrite core is the way to go.
kb
 
 
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 30, 2011, 06:19:54 am
@andy
 
start your winding at the top of the spool and wind a single layer down to the bottom. use iron wire, make it a tight winding with no bends or kinks.
 
@kb
 
i would not use copper dude, how does it stop normal "transformer action" from happening?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 30, 2011, 06:46:19 am
Hi Spintronic
Primary coil must be made only one layer - correct? ( more layer in not allowed? what if  I want more turn of wire  but my spool is short? ) ?
Sorry for my english and mayby stupid question.
andy
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 30, 2011, 16:57:58 pm
Spin,
It's all experimental.  My hybrid rod vic works and makes gas.  ...now, for example, I added three iron wire spiral chokes in series to the negative side with an iron powder epoxy core and it bumped up to 2.2kv at 12v with 10ma.  I'll be trying the same rod type set up with an iron wire secondary soon enough and let ya know, dude.  The iron wire has an effect with many fewer turns and length of wire used compared to copper, that is well proven to my satisfaction.  Looks like I'll be using the hv probe from here. 
kb
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 03, 2011, 23:21:59 pm
http://www.electronicspoint.com/transformer-observation-t238359p5.html

 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3905.0;imode
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 03, 2011, 23:34:11 pm
http://www.edaboard.com/thread222474.html

Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 03, 2011, 23:52:04 pm
Steve,
 
The flyback core idea I tried last week.  They pop out nicely fromn old pc monitors and with two sections are easy to insert in a plastic tube.  I used iron wire single layer primary under a 30 gauge seven layer jumble secondary.  Today while at home I'm winding a single layer iron wire 8XA on a four inch iron powder store bought toroid.  I'll be trying to see the inverted waveforms with neg and pos sides that Tony mentions.  we'll see
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 00:21:44 am
....iron wire & core properties didn't take long to get a discusion going at eda board, lol
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 00:57:46 am
i understand the skineffects and thats why most coils are made from copper.
But i must agree on the fact that there is almost non info on iron coil inductors.
Thats pretty odd.....

Spintronic, illuminati, found something interesting.

I do have here some insulated iron wire, which i will compare with copper, on an electromagnet.
Just wanna see how different it behaves.... 8)

Steve
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 04:55:39 am
Steve,
I am here to tell ya...  the iron powder core bifilar wound toroid I made today with single layer iron wire did not even come close to the gas production and hv ptp that a simple pc flyback gives with a single layer iron wire primary with a copper wire secondary jumble wound on top.  there is something going on here...
for example, the flyback core I made with seperate iron wound chokes on ferrite rods laying nearby in series produced 2600v at 12v ptp with 50ma compared to 250v ptp 12v 100ma with a toroid wound single layer 8XA fashion
experiments continue
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 09:25:47 am
Steve,
I am here to tell ya...  the iron powder core bifilar wound toroid I made today with single layer iron wire did not even come close to the gas production and hv ptp that a simple pc flyback gives with a single layer iron wire primary with a copper wire secondary jumble wound on top.  there is something going on here...
for example, the flyback core I made with seperate iron wound chokes on ferrite rods laying nearby in series produced 2600v at 12v ptp with 50ma compared to 250v ptp 12v 100ma with a toroid wound single layer 8XA fashion
experiments continue
kb

I like news things.... :)


KB, the results you have of 2.6kv are done with a flyback core with the original secondairy in tackt and you wound just an iron primary?
Normally i wind just a couple of windings on such primary of a flyback.
How many turns did you do on the prim on that flyback?
And them just hooked up to a 3 inch tubeset?

Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 17:03:05 pm
Steve,
The flyback core two Cs are removed from the winding housing and seperated.  I wind a single layer iron wire around a thin plastic tube about an inch and half long just enough to fit in when I put the two flyback Cs back together.  Over the single layer primary I then wind on a copper secondary which is done by winding a 1/4 " high hump about 1/4" wide and then another next to it and then another until the end which is about seven or so humps next to each other, a lazy man's tricoil like approach with no seperator bobbins..  yep it is connected to my three inch cell.
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 17:10:13 pm
Steve,
 
Also, mosfets do matter, of the 1/2 dozen I have on hand they give me a range of 300v ptp to 700v ptp, except the irfbc40, which produces the 2.6kv, I've favored this mosfet for some time now, it is worth looking into the datasheet to see the difference it has, and nicely, they are cheap on ebay, about 50 cents each
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 21:31:03 pm
Thank you, KB
 ;) :)
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 21:59:28 pm
Kb,

About you using Fets, try to use transistors....
Like the 2n3055.
Fets have al kinds of demping stuff inside.
I got the cleanest signals with transistors.
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 22:35:14 pm
Steve,
 
I was about to to try fets on the positve side and even bought some but got caught up in this iron wire idea.  I just wound another flyback to see if it was just a fluke or I was imagining things.  The one on the right side is new and beats the first one!!
What do you mean by demping stuff inside?  What 2n3055 circuit do you recommend I wire up?  I'm guesing I just pulse it off the existing mosfet driver anyway, correct?
 
kb, danka 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 23:33:37 pm
Steve,
 
I was about to to try fets on the positve side and even bought some but got caught up in this iron wire idea.  I just wound another flyback to see if it was just a fluke or I was imagining things.  The one on the right side is new and beats the first one!!
What do you mean by demping stuff inside?  What 2n3055 circuit do you recommend I wire up?  I'm guesing I just pulse it off the existing mosfet driver anyway, correct?
 
kb, danka
Yes, just use the same driver circuit. Maybe keep a resistor between the driveroutput and transistor base.

The Fets i used, seem to have a capacitance inside. Maybe because of the build in diode.
In all cases, it gave resonance between my coils. Not such issues with transistors.

Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 23:48:40 pm
http://www.modularcircuits.com/h-bridge_secrets1.htm
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 04, 2011, 23:59:43 pm
You got to read this doc...

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup169/slup169.pdf
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2011, 00:10:28 am
when testing the VIC, is there any results that indicate multiple cells (whether in series or parallel) obtain desired results over using a single cell on the VIC coil?
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2011, 01:05:29 am
Steve,
danka for the circuit links, the irfbc40 mosfet has some very low capacitance inside with these specs to compare to the 2n3055 -fwiw
Input Capacitance C
[/size][/font]
ISS VGS = 0V, VDS = 25V, f = 1.0MHz  - 1300 - pF
Output Capacitance C  OSS - 160 - pF
 Reverse Transfer Capacitance C  RSS - 45 - pF
rise times, turn off times, on time delay, fall times- all are hard to beat
 
kb
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2011, 02:44:14 am
Hello i would give you some points to think.


About the iron in the primary, i thought of this some time ago, i didn't thought about spin ... I was thinking about the speed of the electrons in the wire...


I thought that relativistic magnetic effects could be achieved by using iron.. Was just a supposition.


For example a thin wire and a thick wire of whatever material will present different electron velocities for a given current. However in engineering there are standards of allowed primary dissipation for a given rated power transformer. 


i was looking into the links about the iron as the primary, but the guy didn't specify the resistance of the primary. so is impossible to determine how much watts was being dissipated in the primary.


A given resistance per inductance will give a specific time constant.


don't know what to think.


From the experiments i did using iron wire on the secondary i have found nothing. Except once when i got such a resonance that the trasformer burned into light. I never tried it again however... It was a steal wire with a black plastic cover...


 

Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2011, 05:13:12 am
Seb,
I'm going on intuition here with the iron wire.  I think there is a resistance factor in play, however, the thing ran cool to the touch at 12v for over an hour.  Other observations include comparing a two & 1/2 inch ferrite rod compared to the ferrite flyback cores in the photo.  Of the rods that I wind with iron wire and copper secondary exactly like the flyback cores, the ptp voltage peaks at a point even if a  higher voltage is inputed.  The flyback with iron wire primary under a copper secondary has the ptp voltage increasing right along with the input voltage and jumps up quickly in a better than exactly matching relationship to the input voltage. Circular effect to hold flux in I suppose.  I need a hv oscope probe higher than 3kv now to see the relationship even at 12 volts.  Gas is much better, even at 3-5 volts with this arrangement..........  running at 60ma with 12v in at 5.52khz, yet I still believe it to be normal electrolysis...
Is it fair game to add 1-10 meg ohm to the oscope probe and do some calculations to determine ptp voltage?  I'd hate to bust the thing.
kb
 
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 06, 2011, 11:18:53 am
I keept thinking about the subject... The iron wire will also add more induction to the transformer as it is ferromagnetic... And there will be a magnetic field closing path with each adjacent turn not just inside the core. As this flux will be more concentrated between turns i imagine you will increase the induced voltage in a secondary if in comparison with copper primary. However I'm not sure if this type of assymetry could already give any over-unity effects. Cause a greater induction would only give you a greater EMF in the secondary... You should try to determine if there are strange effects on the BEMF...   


I think there would be benefits of using it with no core... Maybe an iron and a copper wire bifilar like...


a transformer with a higher resistance in the primary will have less reactive component so most of the energy should be transfered to the secondary (except the dissipated energy)


The time constant will be smaller therefor the frequency of operation can be higher..


We should maybe understand more about phasors and electronics engineering to be able to understand whats going on...


Br
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2012, 15:43:38 pm
The quote below from another forum refers to this patent:  http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument;jsessionid=00FF002D301F0117FAC673F115883C30.espacenet_levelx_prod_5?CC=CA&NR=2594905A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20090118&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument;jsessionid=00FF002D301F0117FAC673F115883C30.espacenet_levelx_prod_5?CC=CA&NR=2594905A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20090118&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)

[glow]
If I understand the patent correctly, it is primarily the reluctance of the metal for the two coils of the secondary, being different than the reluctance of the metal of the primary.  The flux path in the metal for the secondaries becomes the path of least resistance.  This in turn allows for energy gain.  And not just a small amount of COP.  3200%!!

Many on this board have spent a great deal of time (years) and money, trying to achieve COP >1.

Thane, who was once a major contributor to this forum has discovered something far more important than his earlier experiments.

I wish for all here to read the Patent and to come to their own conclusion and to attempt replication, on any scale.


EDIT:
The link appears to now be again working!  (YEA!)  Link is two posts above!!

Cheers,

Bruce
[/glow]


I thought this may be of some interest.

TS
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 06, 2012, 20:58:25 pm
Tony, have you tested this on the resonance VIC?

When I measure at the chokes I have 180o phase what is seen in the video. But when I connect the WFC, I have all the signals in phase again...

Ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 07, 2012, 23:28:06 pm
Question: "how do you restrict current" ?

Quote
The value of the Inductor (C), the value of the capacitor (ER), and the pulse-frequency of the voltage
being applied across the LC circuit determines the impedance of the LC circuit

Quote
The Inductor (C) takes on or becomes an Modulator Inductor which steps up an oscillation of an
given charging frequency
with the effective capacitance of an pulse-forming network in order to charge
the voltage zones (E1/E2) to an higher potential beyond applied voltage input

Amp leakage is restricted to 1-2 milliamp on resonance, so 2000 to 5000 Voltage potential applied gives E=IZ -> 2000=1 *10^-3 Z -> Z= 2 Mega Ohms or Z=2.5Mega Ohms total electrical Impedance at the chokes on typical 5kHz frequency.

Quote
Info what Stan tells in the patent about Impedance (Z) is very important!

Electrical Impedance (Z), is the total opposition that a circuit presents to alternating current. Impedance is measured in ohms and may include resistance ®, inductive reactance (XL), and capacitive reactance (XC). However, the total impedance is not simply the algebraic sum of the resistance, inductive reactance, and capacitive reactance. Since the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance are 90o out of phase with the resistance and, therefore, their maximum values occur at different times, vector addition must be used to calculate impedance.

This Z is for secondary, positive and negative chokes and wfc.
If you connect the chokes to the wfc, you notice the inductance is altered and also the capacitance and resistance. Neg choke gives 180 phase shift to choke pos.

Choke neg is tuned for Z Equal to Choke pos Z to restrict current and charge the water molecules.

Since the coils are not perfect components we have to use Real Components capacitor (Rs, L, C, Rp) and inductor (Rs, L, Cw) combined WFC (C and R) and calculate the needed Z for the chokes. This is then on typically 5kHz resonance 3 inch resonance WFC!

Quote
Variable inductor-coil (D), similar to inductor (C) connected to opposite polarity voltage zone (E2)
further inhibits electron movement or deflection within the Voltage Intensifier Circuit. Movable wiper
arm fine "tunes" "Resonant Action" during pulsing operations. Inductor (D) in relationship to inductor
(C) electrically balances the opposite voltage electrical potential across voltage zones (EI/E2).

Negative choke has different Z as the positive choke, because it has R wfc added to the total Electrical Impedance and needs 'tuning'.

Br,
Webmug


Title: Re: How to build the vic tried and tested
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 08, 2012, 00:14:59 am
The impedance of a resonance fed in parallel is huge theoretically infinite and is defined by the Q factor.

If you apply for say 40kv at 1ma and the tank have lets say 10 amps recirculating its clear that the XL is 40000ohms

and the Q is the relation of the input current to the recirculating current.

if you get 1 amps divided by 1ma you get Q factor of 1000

giving an impedance saw by the source as a 40MOhm resistor.

in series circuit the voltage will be the initial voltage(t) times the Q...