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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dave on June 23, 2011, 01:36:50 am

Title: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 23, 2011, 01:36:50 am
 
So.. anyone who has looked for Stan's U cores knows they cannot be found! (If someone has found a source, please let me know) Their may be substitutes, but I feel the best plan of action would be to pull together and order custom cores to our specifications. I have all of the sizes from Don, but I need to know what you guys think about the material they should be made of, permeability... ect? Remember, it needs to work between 0 and 10 khz
 
I'm already tried Adams magnetics, but they don't actually make the cores themselves and they said I would have to order around 1000. so that’s not really an option. I'll be contacting some other companies as soon as I get a better idea of what we need? and once I know that other people are interested. The price for you guys would be cost plus shipping, nothing extra
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 31, 2011, 05:45:41 am
it seems that having a custom core made is more difficult then I thought, I'm still checking into more company's, if anyone knows a good site to buy U cores please post them.
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 02:34:42 am
A friend of me made 3 pairs for testing - 2 of them was sent to Outlaw and Tony. We are still looking into the permeability and induction of the cores. The price is high for one sett, but after all,they are custom made. When we have the correct value, I recon that there will be made a few of them in the same fashion. But in the end, a production mold must be made, also something that I've investigated and have offers on.
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 03:10:32 am
Cool! Hopefully I can get my hands on one when that day comes
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 04, 2011, 02:19:22 am
Has anyone tried to find a place to buy ferrite
in sheets? looking at stan's and u core's
that others have done they look like they were
cut from a sheet.
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 05, 2011, 09:47:43 am
Has anyone tried to find a place to buy ferrite
in sheets? looking at stan's and u core's
that others have done they look like they were
cut from a sheet.

Nope....
Ferrite is nasty stuff to cut, but already know that, ill guess...


Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 05, 2011, 10:12:05 am
Here are a few images from the process used to cut our very first U cores - for your pleasure  ;)
As I mentioned, it takes several attempts to do this, but we learned and have refined the method. The cost is always going to be higher then using a mold to cast the cores. I am letting you know that we can manufacture these types of cores, but this is foremost used only to get the correct value and getting the correct value is not the most easy task at hand. But we are getting there.
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 05, 2011, 17:28:48 pm
glad someone is doing this!! they look great
Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2011, 01:52:43 am
I have built the vic we may need a lot of these cores soon, e-cores give the best results according to meyer
 
 
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    Check out my post, a tried and tested working VIC
     
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 04:33:47 am
    Dos anyone know what the permeabiity is supposed to be?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 05:47:22 am
    I was told M20 for frequencies around 10K by a mag engineer, but Stan's work is not the norm. I'm still not convinced that the core has to be thin and flat.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 05:57:28 am
    Tony reminded me that stan states M27 in one of his documents, I'll have to find out which document though to find out if it's for the  dual U core vic or another one.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 06:54:01 am
    ferrite with a perm around 2000 is good for 10khz.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 15:00:05 pm
    The patent WO 89/12704 page 6 mentions the M27 core material,which is a steel laminate non grain.It is an alternate type of core for the flat core vic that we are talking about here.It's a Canadian patent.Figure 9 shows the coil layout.
    Don
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 19:10:38 pm
    Awesome, thanks for the info Don.

    Now the hard part, finding a place to purchase some cores or core material.     Anyone have any info on where to get some?

    So what were looking for is CRNGO M27 steel .105" thick?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 19:46:16 pm
    Hms, I did a quick google search and didn't come up with to much unless you want to buy it by the ton. My father works at car tech, I'm going to ask him if they produce anything like this
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 20:25:39 pm
    M27 steel is a laminate,you need several layers to get the .105 inch thickness,not just one piece.It won't work unless it's laminates.
    Don
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 20:37:14 pm
    Ok I didn't know it was laminate, I missed that earlier, so the origonal core used some type of ferrite it looks like.
    If were using a max of 20kHz we need some pretty thin pieces here.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 21:37:47 pm
    What are the limitations of going in the direction? I always thought electrical steel had a very narrow frequency bandwidth
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 22:09:20 pm
    you can purchase the M27 laminates here at the following website...I contacted them a while back and if I remember right you can get enough to make 10 - 15 cores for around $150.  http://www.protolam.com/page7.html (http://www.protolam.com/page7.html)
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 15, 2011, 22:20:21 pm
    Awesome, Thanks Tony,
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on December 23, 2011, 18:51:49 pm
    Does anyone know what kind of enamel and what the build was on the 29awg wire Stan used in the 5 coil VIC?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 00:28:50 am
    This is my first post and I'd just like to say I've learned more on this site in the last 6 months than any other site in the last 5 years.  Thanks!
    I believe I may have found a source for ferrite u cores.  Magneticsgroup.com offer ferrite plates which I believe could be shaped with a laser cutting machine commonly found at steel fabricators.  They offer one size, p/n B-1377 which is 3.87" x 3.87" x .118" which should be sufficient for one u core.  Here's the link if anyone is interested.

    http://www.magneticsgroup.com/f_other.htm
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 03:00:50 am
    Mr. Don,

    Some here are suggesting Stan used iron or other wire in his dunebuggy coil, and that ferrous wire is the only way to make the vic coils work. I believe you said he used copper for all of his dunebuggy coils. Could you clear up this confusion?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 03:17:25 am
    All the VIC coils for the resonant cavity were copper wire.There was stainless wire there,but I never seen any coils made with it.
    The core material looked like ferrite,but may have been iron.Don't know for sure.I think that it was a ferrite type,but can't be totally sure.Iron looks like ferrite too.
    Don
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 03:57:25 am
    Yea the core material in the images look like Ferrite to me also and based on the inductance measurements it leads me to think that it has a permeability around 1000. In Stan's U.S. Patent #5,149,407 (page 19 section 6, line 6) says you can use M27 iron cores for the 5 coil VIC transformer.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 04:08:30 am
    Thank you for the clarification. This is what I thought as well.
    The closer we can build the unit to Stan's specs, the better the results will be.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 04:21:31 am
    Tony, thanks for the info.
    if the core was around 1000 perm wouldn't it be out of the Vic cards working frequency range?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 04:31:09 am
    The permeability of the cores I'm using is 2000 and the inductance measurements with the same amount of wire as Stan's coils give me at least twice the inductance. Don's showed inductance measurements of 1263mH @ around 75 ohms for L1, with the 2000 perm. cores I'm getting measurements around 2500mH @ around 75 ohms for L1. So as you can see my perm. is too high and thats why Im thinking it should be around 1000. With powder Iron cores Im get an inductance of 350mH, which is too low.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 05:46:25 am
    Cool thanks, then I guess that's the new number to shoot for and see what happens
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 09:14:28 am
    Anyone knows were cores with such permeability can be bought. Or if it is possible to fabricate such cores using resin and iron powder?
    The nearest I can find are balun rods but have permeability of 400 not 1000

    HM
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 19:35:29 pm
    The powder iron cores that I tested where specially made by MicroMetal, but like I said it only gave me an inductance of around 350mH
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 20:02:38 pm
    Tony, What was the thickness?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2012, 20:33:36 pm
    they are 0.125" thick, 3" x 3" square slabs....here's the part #I349-40/.125
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2012, 00:00:54 am
    All,

    I've made fine iron powder and epoxy cores and they will not saturate but have a inductance too low for us I think.  It is much below 400uh and works nicely for 60hz but not much good at khz frequencies.  Same experience with steel strips from an old microwave oven transformer.  Since that experiment, I've bundled and put seven 1/4" ferrite rods through standard wire bobbins off the shelf and matched the ends with rectangular ferrite strips about five high.  It works well and is cheap from ebay.

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2012, 09:15:34 am
    All,

    I've made fine iron powder and epoxy cores and they will not saturate but have a inductance too low for us I think.  It is much below 400uh and works nicely for 60hz but not much good at khz frequencies.  Same experience with steel strips from an old microwave oven transformer.  Since that experiment, I've bundled and put seven 1/4" ferrite rods through standard wire bobbins off the shelf and matched the ends with rectangular ferrite strips about five high.  It works well and is cheap from ebay.

    kb

    What ferrite rods are you using?
    Are they balun ferrite rods?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2012, 23:13:46 pm
    yep, it is these

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Balun-Ferrite-Rods-10x200mm-Lot-8-/200692245739?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eba30a4eb

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2012, 23:30:13 pm
    Those rods are 400perm. I think I have something pretty close to those but have not had any luck using them. What frequency range are you working with?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 10, 2012, 23:46:44 pm
    It seems to work well across a wide frequency range.  I L meter measure at 1.2h with seven of them bundled as a core using a standard spool of 1000' 28 gauge.  My VIC has two sets of two for chokes on the five coil setup. 

    Question for Tony,  Do you get the waveform by using a second diode across the negative secondary pointing to and connecting after the meyer diode?

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 11, 2012, 10:01:51 am
    Hi kickbackemf
    Can you post a picture of your VIC ?
    I have lots of these rods around but inductance readings look too low. I wound  aprox 100 turn on one of them and resulted in only 0.6mH.


    HM
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 11, 2012, 16:22:20 pm
    HM:

    I've been playing around with 8 330uf capacitors in parallel at the variac rectifier to reduce the 60hz drop out in the waveform.... 

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 11, 2012, 16:30:59 pm
    HM:

    ooopppsss, that was my MO transformer strip vic, no go

     this is the ferrite rod and strip vic, primary is single layer iron wire over six single insulated layers of 1000' 28 gauge, the waveform comes from this one
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 12, 2012, 06:19:42 am
    Anyone know any good sources for 29 AWG magneti wire, or M27 electrical Steel sheet?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 12, 2012, 06:40:33 am
    Wire: http://www.techfixx.com/ (http://www.techfixx.com/)
    M27: http://www.protolam.com/page7.html (http://www.protolam.com/page7.html)
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 17, 2012, 22:45:45 pm
    Hello,
     
       Is anyone looking for u-cores. I have a place where I can get some. The material is Epcos N95 and the permeability is 3000.

       The coats for a set is going to be $110 without shipping. This is what they went for them.
     
       Josh
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 18, 2012, 02:23:00 am
    Here is some info from National Magnetics Group regarding ferrite plates which could be fabricated by perhaps a water jet or laser.  Unfortunately the minimum order is for 25 @ $30.00 each.  You would need one plate per u-core half to duplicate Meyers core.  Anyone got a better deal?

    We do not make a M27 material so I am assuming you’re looking for a MnZn power ferrite.  Is this product our M20 would be the available material, with 2000 initial perm.  I have attached our data sheet.  Our part number made with M20 would be; B-1377-M20.  You have not provided a quantity so I have quoted our minimum order.
     
    P/N: B-1377-M20
    25 pcs $30.00 ea MOQ
    Lead-time: 8-10 weeks
     
    Let me know if you need different price breaks or have any questions.
     
    Thank you,
    Mark Northrup
    National Magnetics Group
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 18, 2012, 15:37:07 pm
    I'll take one, now 29 other's here need to order.....

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 18, 2012, 17:36:35 pm
    So the deal is we need two sheets and have to cut them our selves?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 02:46:42 am
    Yes, the ferrite plates are 3.87" x 3.87" x .118".  One plate should be sufficient to make one u-core (2 required for the VIC coil).  I have not investigated the possibility of cutting with a water jet or laser yet but I don't see any reason why either could not be used to turn the plates into u-cores.  The 8-10 week lead time slows the process down.  If anyone knows of someone who actually stocks something similar on a shelf ready to sell that would be a plus.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 03:48:24 am
    I'll take two plates as well, now we just need 13 more people
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 05:14:08 am
    Here is the M20 PDF from National Magnetics Group regarding the ferrite plates.  Is the 2000 permeability the correct choice?  I'll place the order if I can be assured at least 20 plates will be going to a home other than mine. 

    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 17:00:33 pm
    M20 is the correct material for the 10Khz frequency. count me in for a set
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 18:36:56 pm
    A set for me also.

    kb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2012, 19:13:23 pm
    Correction:
    I'm up for 2 set also even if I arranged 3 sets already for testing. The price isn't too bad so why not secure an edition.
    PM me regarding payment and shipping.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2012, 02:42:38 am
    I'll be placing an order for 26 ferrite plates through National Magnetics Group within 5 days.  They measure 3.87" x 3.87" x .118" and are available with permeability ratings of M20 (2000) and N16 (1600).  Several members have expressed interest and placed requests.  If anyone is interested in obtaining some of these for your cores please send me a private message.  There are links to National Magnetics on this discussion for more info.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on January 31, 2012, 02:21:19 am
    Gary, I would like 4 plates.  What is the best way to contact you?
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on February 02, 2012, 03:14:19 am
    Unlimited, check your messages. 

    Garyb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on February 02, 2012, 03:39:14 am
    I would take a pair.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on February 02, 2012, 03:48:59 am
    Minde,

    Check your messages.

    Garyb
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2012, 19:32:24 pm
    I have been doing some research on the core materal used in the 5 coil VIC.

    Ferrite 43 material which has a permeability of 850 (which I think is too low) and CN20 Ferrite which has a permeability of 925. Both of these materials are NiZn Ferrites which are typically used at frequencies above 500kHz.

    There are also MnZn Ferrites, from what I have read these ferrites have permeabilities above 800 and are used at frequencies from 1kHz to 1MHz. So I'm thinking we need a MnZn Ferrite. Right now I'm looking trying to find an MnZn material which has a permeability around 1000. Core material selection is something I have very little experience in, but in Meyer's case I think it is very important to find the right material.
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on February 17, 2012, 01:30:21 am
    Hi everyone,

    I'm new to this forum and I too am looking for core material to use with my experiments. I found something that may be of interest to the forum. I'm fairly sure I've identified the "E" core Stan was either using or planning to using on one of his bi-filler wound coils. Looking at this photo:

    (http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o569/drayden7937/DSC_0234.jpg)

    The upper most E core in the picture has a part number which reads OP48020???

    I looked up Magnetics, Booneville, AR and found this company profile:

    http://start.cortera.com/company/research/k3j0srk3j/magnetics/

    Following the link to Magnetics, I then tried several different searches until at last I searched for "4802" without the OP and got this result:

    http://www.mag-inc.com/home/Advanced-Search-Results?pn=4802

    The first part number is for a ferrite E core part number OP48020EC

    The permeability is 2,500 and capable of fairly high frequencies. Could this be a clue as to what direction was heading? Has this been noticed before and I just haven't found it in another post already? In any case I'd love to read some thoughts on this.

     
    Title: Re: Custom u cores anyone?
    Post by: Login to see usernames on May 06, 2012, 03:31:24 am
    I've have finally received the flat ferrite plates from National Magnetics in both 1600 and 2000 permability.  Since most of the folks who had said they would purchase these plates have flaked out and decided not to honor their commitments I've have some plates available.  Contact me by PM if interested.