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Projects by members => Projects by members => Dave => Topic started by: Dave on June 14, 2011, 01:04:24 am

Title: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 01:04:24 am
well... this is my first try at the U core vic
I couldn't find anything close to the core size Stan was using. Has anyone found one?
Anyway, The secondary and both inductors are 2000 trurns of 29g wire and the primary is 100 turns of 24g wire. The core is ferrite and has a high permubiltiy. I had a miss calulation and it came out with inductors four times the size that I wanted! So I recalculated my resonant frequency. It should be resonating around 1000hz but the highest voltage I get is around 20k and the frequency is half that at the cell. I calculated resonance with the possitive inductor values and water cap values. The highest voltage I can get is around 240 volts at the cell with 12 volts input. I'm still using my old tube cell which is 4 times too big. I'll have my new tune cell done soon, as close to Don's spects as possible.
Anyone have any advice why it doesn't resonant properly? or anything else I can change to get this working properly?
 
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 01:18:31 am
here is my coil winder for those that were intersted, it makes things way easier but it still takes forever because I don't have a wire guide
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 10:50:52 am
well... this is my first try at the U core vic
I couldn't find anything close to the core size Stan was using. Has anyone found one?
Anyway, The secondary and both inductors are 2000 trurns of 29g wire and the primary is 100 turns of 24g wire. The core is ferrite and has a high permubiltiy. I had a miss calulation and it came out with inductors four times the size that I wanted! So I recalculated my resonant frequency. It should be resonating around 1000hz but the highest voltage I get is around 20k and the frequency is half that at the cell. I calculated resonance with the possitive inductor values and water cap values. The highest voltage I can get is around 240 volts at the cell with 12 volts input. I'm still using my old tube cell which is 4 times too big. I'll have my new tune cell done soon, as close to Don's spects as possible.
Anyone have any advice why it doesn't resonant properly? or anything else I can change to get this working properly?
The AWG of the VIC inductors are all the same and the Sec, choke1 and choke2 have not equal wire length.
What high permeability value are you talking about? And what are the core specs?
If you have Unipolar Pulsed voltage at the secondary you are in business.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 10:54:36 am
Nice winder ;)

You have a very nice VIC build, Dave!
Maybe you can add a resistor between your cell and VIC.
Question: How many tubes you have hooked up to the VIC?
Its 1 VIC per tube, accoording to Stan and Don.

Steve
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 15:46:46 pm
This is a very nice build. It appears that when i did the photogrammetry on the VICs that the
coils had more of a random wind.  If the value of the inductor is  too large consider using whatever tubeset you have but use another capacitor in parallel/series to alter the frequency of the LC circuit
 
regards
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 22:56:37 pm
Thanks everyone for the replys and compliments!
 
Webmug, You are right! I should have specified; my chokes are 2030 turns and 1900 turns and the secondary is 1950 turns. I wound a primary of 29g wire but it doesn't work very well, I need to wait for my new bobbins to come to make another one. Permubility of the core is 2000. Here is all my info on the core. How can I detect a unipolor pulse? my scope is still not working
 
 http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/pdf/ich-ui-1f4.pdf (http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/pdf/ich-ui-1f4.pdf)
 
http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/pdf/ich-ui-1f4.pdf (http://www.surplussales.com/inductors/pdf/ich-ui-1f4.pdf)
 
Steve, thanks! It took some time. I'm only using one tube set. I'll add a resister and see what happends
 
Jim, Thanks as well! Don said that too, I just thought they may work even better if they were as close to perfect as possible, and i've been adding caps, I can get high voltage across the caps but it doesn't raise the water caps voltage, so far
 
 
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 31, 2011, 06:20:17 am
I've pretty much finished all the testing I will do with my current setup. nothing out of the ordinary to report. I can't get it to resonate properly or achieve the voltage I would like across my water cap; I will test it again as soon as my new cell is finished. This new cell will be built as close to dons specs as possible, I haven't been able to find a ss tube with a .030" wall. The closest I can find is .028", has anyone found something better?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 01, 2011, 06:36:50 am
your not getting resonance because your cell has too much current leakage.
I would hazard a guess that your using tap water? Or water with too many impurities. The impurities act like electrolyte lowering your cells resistance. This is all the current in your cell traveling through like it is a resistor rather than a capacitor.
In SM's notes there is mention of different types of water and their amp draw. If possible increase your amp loading on your primary. How much to increase it by is hard to tell but once you hit the point where the amps can't pass through your waters resistance it will bounce back (increasing voltage) and try on the next cycle.
Remember your equation for resistance is "R=V/A"
As i see it, your cell will resonate, increasing in voltage, until it has built up enough volts to allow the applied amps to transfer through the resistance (water). So if your cell will allow your applied amps (note that your applied amps is the OUTPUT from your VIC) to transfer through your cell at 120V then that is your voltage point.
To fix this (as per the above reasoning) you will need to INCREASE your cells resistance, or INCREASE your amp output from your transformer. Just a bit of IMO
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 02, 2011, 15:39:39 pm
thanks for the advice!
you are correct, I am using tap water that I wouldn't even drink haha I can't really change my input power with my setup so I will try distilled water. I never really expected current draw to be the problem, in fact my current reading at the cell is so low that I produce nothing through electrolysis, not even a single bubble. Could this still be an issue?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 07:16:37 am
120v @ 1ma is still only 1ma. While you are putting in some watts if your current draw is so low that if you were aiming for brute force electrolysis your production would be tiny.
I bet if you left it on for a while the water would heat up and you would get a tiny beading on the surface of your tubes...
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 13:47:24 pm
Ok yeah I see what your saying, so it could still be an issue, I'll pick up some distilled water this weekend. I'll try some water from my dehumidifier first 
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 26, 2011, 03:21:41 am
Gas production!!
not a lot, in fact its really small haha
i made a video
It would be best to watch on on a computer and with it in the larger view to really see the gas.

Anyway, Since my coils are so large (around 6 henrys for secondary and both chokes each)  I made a small one inch test cell because i needed a much smaller capacitance. Voltage at the cell was between 290 and 330 volts ac. Amps at the cell average about 5 micro amps but I have seen between .7 micro amps and 10 micro amps without changing production. If I leave the cell on for a few minutes gas production doubles and triples which still isn't very much. voltage also raises with gas production. I really want to use a pll to keep it at resonance because its really really touchy. The current didn't change in the same manor. One of the  most interesting things I observed was that the gas seemed to be charged. The positive alligator clip is half way out of the water and some of the bubbles are attracted towards is and some are pushed away! after i turn everything off, a much larger plume of gas is released from the tubes.
what are your thoughts? do you think this production is just electrolysis?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 26, 2011, 07:44:49 am
What kinda current readings are you getting on the Primary side?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 26, 2011, 21:13:02 pm
I tryed to take some current measurements today and noticed my meter is not functioning properly. It reads voltage just fine but disregard the amp reading for now. I'll get a new meter as soon as I can. Sorry guys
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 27, 2011, 16:15:06 pm
Last night I dropped $80 on a new meter. To my surprise I'm getting the same small ac micro amp measurements.

Tony, I can't seem to get any reading across the primary except for an even smaller ac signal than at the cell which just wouldn't make sense; I tryed measuring it in every way I could. I used two different meters and even tryed measuring in reference to ground.

I had the circuit on for an hour or so last night, after it runs for a few minutes I can adjust the frequency for a higher voltage and gas production increases as well. I probably adjusted it 20 times in an hours for better results
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 27, 2011, 21:29:55 pm
Also, the Vic stops functioning when I try to read the current an the primary, weird
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2011, 03:22:44 am
I've been informed that they high frequencies we are using can really through off digital meters, so I'm going to order some analog meter for testing. Is this the best way to go?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 17, 2012, 02:17:15 am
Saw the youtube video on the core problem.  Have you tried making it?  Would a Magnetite or ferric oxide one be good?  Is ferric oxide core OK?  see this flick to make your own:
Codie Gillespie:
feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL.   might be a little fragile, that thin...
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2012, 02:32:07 am
Sam, I haven't tried that, but I've thought about it. If you get the correct material I would think it could work out. I'm getting some custom cut soon. Thanks for the vid
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2012, 02:34:40 am
I can seem to get the correct waveform, I tried doing what don and Tony have specified. Please see this video for more information
feature=youtube_gdata_player

Any advice?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2012, 03:25:25 am
Hey dave,

Where did you get your bobbins made up?
I contacted a local plastic printing company and they gave me a quote of 100$ per set?

Anyone know where to get the best price on having some made?
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2012, 03:46:11 am
Hms, You can get a much better deal. I'll send you a link when I get to a computer. The guy I got them from will do it at cost because he wants to help us out. He prints them on a 3d plastic printer. A guy I'm working with just got 3 steps for around $40
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2012, 07:20:10 am
Ok, that would be awesome,

I'll look forward to it! Thanks Dave
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2012, 02:34:22 am
Hms, did you get in touch with the bobbin guy? Send me a pv if not.

I'm home this week and trying to get some experiments in. I've been having some issues with my power supply lately so I took it apart today and found two of the capacitors are fried! Has anyone had this problem? I would imagine it happened because of back emf or inductor spikes? How can I prevent this from happening?
Anyway, I still haven't had any luck getting the signal we are after. I still have two identical sine waves.
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2012, 22:44:20 pm
feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 13:44:10 pm
feature=youtube_gdata_player
Looks great Dave!
Nice cell, I have contacted the cell builder if he sells wfc cell parts, but no response yet.
I don't have a lathe to replicate the tube, are the specs exact like SM 3 inch tube-set?

I also had this waveform on a HV cap 1nf, two channel probe hooked up pos,neg.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1934.msg22291.html#msg22291
I still think it is the isolating delrin material what increases the polarization effect.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 19:39:55 pm
Thanks webmug,

It turns out I was wrong about my waveform. I took the video down. I'm still getting the same results as my last video. But I can get about 100 volts higher on the new cell which puts me around 500.
Thats a nice waveform you have, I can't seem to get it right. The only time I see it is if the cell is not connected or one of my scope leads is before the choke.
I don't know where to go from here
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 22:00:03 pm
Thanks webmug,

It turns out I was wrong about my waveform. I took the video down. I'm still getting the same results as my last video. But I can get about 100 volts higher on the new cell which puts me around 500.
Thats a nice waveform you have, I can't seem to get it right. The only time I see it is if the cell is not connected or one of my scope leads is before the choke.
I don't know where to go from here
Question:
are the WFC cells specs you have exact like SM 3 inch tube-set, Delrin or Plastic?

Good to read your new cell has higher voltages! Using and keeping the specs SM has given us.
Do you also have the amplitude "overlap" voltages 180 out of phase? Please test the offset in the primary pulse signal on the core to see if the voltages POS and NEG offset shift up and down. The core magnetic field should be maintained.
Personally I have not tested this, if I have a SM specs cell and VIC I would give it a try!

"...(B) subjecting the capacitor to a pulsating, unipolar electric voltage field in which the polarity does not pass beyond an arbitrary ground..." seen at the POS and NEG.
Read early posts:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1934.msg20319.html#msg20319
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg22161.html#msg22161

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 24, 2012, 18:07:42 pm
The tubes are machined to Stan's specs. The plastic is not delrin but is very similar. I can't remember the name.
My signals are not 180 degrees out of phase, That was the mistake I made in the video. I've tryed everything but I can't get them 180 degrees out of phase when I have the cell hooked up. I can get the correct waveform when the cell has no water in it. I'm starting to think that something is missing to make our water capacitor complete.
Anyway, your saying dc offset input is important the keep the cores field from collapsing? I will test for this once I'm using the correct pulsing circuit.

When Stan talks about this unipolar pulse that should not pass ground state do you thing he was talking about both signals from L1 and L2? I'm inclined to believe that only the signal from L1 is unipolar because of the fact that there is only one diode. So far I don't see any rectification from it at all, at least not when I have the cell hooked up.

ps, sorry for my slow response time.
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 00:08:58 am
Dave,

Try adding a ground wire from the wall socket or a water pipe running to the negative plate and operate as usual.  An oscope shot of the positive tube will now show only positive pulses.

I've been attempting to make sense of the negative tube to earth ground conection via meyer's electron inhibitor resistor sandwich device. 

For example, I'm up to over 38 mega ohms resistance before I can get a nixie light to dim when connected in series between earth ground and the negative tube in a three inch cell.  This is while running 50v at 100ma at 10khz...

much to learn here, but I like your waveform discussion direction, so thanks

2 cents

kb
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 08:19:16 am
when the L2 coil is 180* out of phase it will cause the core to be constantly magnetized. The 5 -VIC transformer can be looked at as a CVT, Constant Voltage Transformer ;)

One other think I want to mention is that there will be a magnetic field running perpendicular to the coils magnetic field and this will cut out EMF ;)
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 11:51:37 am
when the L2 coil is 180* out of phase it will cause the core to be constantly magnetized. The 5 -VIC transformer can be looked at as a CVT, Constant Voltage Transformer ;)

One other think I want to mention is that there will be a magnetic field running perpendicular to the coils magnetic field and this will cut out EMF ;)
Interesting, do you mean: Ferroresonance ?
http://www.generaltransformer.com/transformer/ferroresonant-transformers.htm

---
Ferroresonant Transformers

Ferroresonant transformers are a special type of laminated transformer which provides a regulated output.
These are sometimes known simply as "ferros", or "CVTs" (constant voltage transformers).
Using a special magnetic structure and a capacitor, ferroresonant transformers can supply a well regulated output voltage
which remains constant despite changes in input voltage and load. In some specialized applications, these devices can be
designed to supply a constant current output, rather than constant voltage. Current limiting is an inherent benefit of ferroresonant  transformers.
If an overload, or even a short circuit is applied, secondary current is limited to a safe level and primary
current is actually lower than at normal full load. Another inherent benefit is that the ferro serves as a low-pass filter, supplying
to load with power, but effectively removing transient and surge voltages. Energy stored in the transformer structure even
allows the output to "ride through" brief input power interruptions.
---

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: U core vic
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 12:02:38 pm
The tubes are machined to Stan's specs. The plastic is not delrin but is very similar. I can't remember the name.
My signals are not 180 degrees out of phase, That was the mistake I made in the video. I've tryed everything but I can't get them 180 degrees out of phase when I have the cell hooked up. I can get the correct waveform when the cell has no water in it. I'm starting to think that something is missing to make our water capacitor complete.
Anyway, your saying dc offset input is important the keep the cores field from collapsing? I will test for this once I'm using the correct pulsing circuit.

When Stan talks about this unipolar pulse that should not pass ground state do you thing he was talking about both signals from L1 and L2? I'm inclined to believe that only the signal from L1 is unipolar because of the fact that there is only one diode. So far I don't see any rectification from it at all, at least not when I have the cell hooked up.

ps, sorry for my slow response time.
Thanks for the info Dave!
Well L2 should produce the opposite signal generated on L1. Both not going through "Ground level" not equal to 0V.

Br,
Webmug