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Projects by members => Projects by members => warj1990 => Topic started by: warj1990 on June 08, 2011, 02:29:55 am

Title: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 08, 2011, 02:29:55 am
Wanted to share this new VIC Idea with you all.  Working on building.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 08, 2011, 09:24:09 am
Wanted to share this new VIC Idea with you all.  Working on building.

I like the idea!
Looking forward to read some details of your tests.

Steve
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 08, 2011, 23:38:51 pm
Planning on just 2 chokes, or split secondary on the first attempts.   I will call the secondary as choke A and choke B for reference.


Each Segment consists of 80 turns of 24 awg wire.  4 segments per choke coil. 


Choke A: 320 turns total, inductance 44.5 mH


Choke B: 320 turns total, inductance 46.4 mH


Give or take some for the cheap meter I use.


I am planning on using a 1600 v 0.1 uF  capacitor on the secondary side.


Blocking diodes are 600 volt, 15 amp rating.
(Edit: Voltage rating should be plenty as the water will conduct with anything above 1.2 volts)
( In theory the only voltage reading at the cell is the voltage drop of the water itself, the rest is recycled)


Target AC frequency is 1668 hz.


Anything off this frequency will result in XL killing the voltage, very low Q, and or, loss of efficiency in cycling.




I may cut the secondary capacitor in half to target a higher frequency of 2359 hz.






I still need to complete the primary winding (tune to primary cap for above freq. aka tank circuit)  and complete the tube in tube cell - lots of machining on this still.


warj1990
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 11, 2011, 23:53:14 pm
Not really any testing or updates as of yet.  Just wanted to bring some photos of the last few days here.


I am not going to try and match resonance between the primary and secondary tanks yet.  My meter keeps bouncing around with the L figures.


I did find out a DRSSTC  (dual resonant solid state tesla coil) has the same type of pulse train Meyer used - worth a trip to google if you are interested.


Primary ended up being 20 turns on each half.  Secondary 80 x 8 = 640 turns.  / 20 primary = 32:1 step up X former.


Min. voltage to operate is 15 volts input.


Primary in resonance drives the voltage up by PIE.  Input min now 15 * PIE = 47.12 volts  * 32 (step up) = 1508 volts on secondary cap.


Allow for 20 percent losses = about 1200 volts on the secondary cap ends.


 


 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 11, 2011, 23:59:00 pm
Sorry guys, 


I am now the winner of the largest picture contest.  I will resize any further photos.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 00:15:35 am
Looking great! :)
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 03:55:44 am
Well I have some test results, not looking good.


Production remained "a bubble here and there"  nothing great.


I replaced the secondary cap with 2 nf  to generate high voltage on across the secondary.
I "shorted out" one of the cells, disconnected from the tubes and tied the wires together.  Thinking there was cross conduction in the cell.


Total input was 2 amps (I think around 60 volts - did not check that).


I have some photos I will attempt to explain in order:


1:  Bubble production very poor.  Look at the right tube only one connected.


2: Frequency of circuit: 38.16 khz


3: 2 meters shown:  Left voltage at secondary capacitor, Right voltage at primary tank capacitor.


4: 2 meters shown:  Left max voltage of meter secondary capacitor, Right voltage at primary tank capacitor.


5: 2 meters shown: Left input current for driver, Right Voltage at primary tank capacitor (note same as photo 4)




I also measured the voltage at the cell terminals, 2 volts DC.  With salt added 0.8 volts DC.


Production was slightly higher with salt added, again not much for the power going into the system.




I am open to any ideas at this point - planning on a smaller secondary winding ratio and looking over Meyers info again.

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 04:15:49 am
I wanted to add, my limits on the driver circuit are as follows:


 200 volts across the capacitor, due to Gate  Drain junction on Mosfets.


 4 amps total input into the driver, bridge rectifier limit.


I noticed with 2 amps the circuit is getting hot after a moments run.  So the run times were short.




I had another idea.  The primary has 40 turns and a tank cap of 0.1uf  I can put 40 turns on the secondary and a 0.1 uf cap.


This will resonate the primary and secondary - since conduction started in the cell at 2 volts and my driving voltage is well above that.


Stay tuned...
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 04:47:22 am
Same setup as above only 40 turns secondary.


Primary drew 14 amps at 15 volts, so I shut it off.


Primary drew 7.6 amps at 10 volts, so I did some short runs, under 20 seconds.


primary and secondary cap both showed about 28 volts each. 


Secondary current into the fuel cell was 0.048.


Frequency was about 1.1khz.

No visible gas production.


I am missing something in the parallel tank circuit - should be massive amp circulation in the tank, and little amp consumption from the source.


 ???  Well I didn't blow anything up yet so time to call it a night.


I will try the 640 turn secondary tomorrow with 7 amp draw in the primary.  Also try baking soda before switching back the secondary.

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 16:56:17 pm
New day new idea.


I have the primary tank as 40 turns and 0.1uf cap.


I have the secondary tank as 40 turns and 0.1uf cap.


I removed the water system completely to test the resonance of the system and it works.  Current draw is 0.13 amps at 10 volts, increases as the voltage goes up.


On turning off the variac it continues to resonate for about 1/2 second.


So for this system to work with the fuel cell I need the most conductive water possible.


How much KOH (or better electrolyte) can I use? 


I need maximum conductivity in the water for this system to work, long electrodes, small spacing, lots of electrolyte.


Photos:
1, 3 meters.  Left shows input current to driver (o.13 amps), Middle shows current on secondary (0.45 amps), Right shows freq. 13.71 khz
2, Shows input voltage of Variac 10 volts.
3, Shows X former, bottom trace of driver circuit.
4, Shows higher current draw and output, variac turned up - same as photo 1.


This shows about 3x output current vs input current, seems to match the PIE voltage increase driving the system. 


I think fine tuning the inductance will drive the primary current lower and secondary higher.


Exciting morning for me  ;D


Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2011, 21:56:17 pm
With highly conductive water, (50% instant power drain cleaner) I am seeing gas production.


I had to raise the voltage to 30 to get 2.5 amps in the secondary, however 1.9 amps in the primary.


Not looking good again, for power in vs power out.  But the secondary is flowing more amps than the primary.


Photo 1, Top production view


Photo 2, Side production view


Photo 3, Three meters, Input amps, primary volts at cap, secondary volts.


Photo 4, Driver current (1.99 amps), Secondary current (2.54 amps)  About 30 volts input at variac.


Photo 5, System turned down Driver current, Secondary current.  Reduced spread between primary and secondary.


Photo 6, New X former.  4 turns 17 awg wire for each section.




I need to find a way to bring up the production with this system.  For 30 volts input at 2 amps - that will drive a lot of cells and produce a lot more gas than what I am getting.  I am adding KOH and NaOH so a series brute force cell looks better than this setup as far a gas production.







Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2011, 00:35:55 am
I have tinkered with this enough to get the following:


Input (driver) 45 volts @ 3 amps. Volts measured at variac.


Output (xformer) 150 volts (at cap 0.4 uf) @ 7.5 amps (dc into cell).




The problem remains: A series cell with 3 volts per cell would have 15 cells.


15 cells @ 3 amps = total 45 amp gas production.




The question now is,  Does the 150 volts play a roll in the amp draw to the cell, or can I reduce this and increase current?


Secondly Why is it still drawing so much power from the primary supply? This is parallel resonance (or at least an attempt).


Edit:


Photos added:


Photo 1,   Left driver input current, Center cell current, Right cell voltage (at cap.)


Photo 2, 45 Volts input tot driver at variac.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2011, 00:46:43 am
had me a "Du a" moment.


45 volts x 3 amps = 135 watts input.


150 volts x 7.5 amps = 1125 watts output.


 ;D   Figure that one out.


Since the water is so conductive I need separate cells to form a series cell with the output.





Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2011, 01:03:50 am
had me a "Du a" moment.


45 volts x 3 amps = 135 watts input.


150 volts x 7.5 amps = 1125 watts output.


 ;D   Figure that one out.


Since the water is so conductive I need separate cells to form a series cell with the output.

Thats a nice result, WJ.
I remember me and Sebosfato also made such setup.
You are correct having a lot of power running in LC on the secondairy.
Becarefull with that, btw.

My results at that time was that
power consumption was exact what the cell was pulling.

The primairy will fill the powerloss in the secondairy LC, made by the cell....
You can compare the difference with a simple basic electrolysis setup of your tubes with the variac.

Keep us updated on your project, Warj...
I am still curious about your progress.

Steve

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2011, 02:24:49 am
Thanks Steve.

I will see about looking over the projects section and find your work.


I tried the 640 turn coil and no results on gas production.  My best setup is the latest.

I am going to build more tube arrays in the future to test series setups with this.


I am using IRFP250N Mosfets for drivers, so the voltage limit is 200 volts.  I am finding at 160 volts the mosfets are shorting out.


Well at least I am jumping from 3.5 amps to 15 amps in the primary.  The driver is still working fine.  I also checked the secondary amp draw during this event.  The current remains in the primary.  No change to the cell.


I have some better drivers laying around here, 600 volts 60 amps, 1200 volts 7 amps.  I was hoping to keep the primary voltage low, but may need to swap out for bench testing.


I think the higher voltage is not allowing the Mosfet to shutoff correctly - thereby "shorting" the primary to ground.

It makes sense that the primary will need to makeup the losses in the circuit - or the tank would run forever.  I do have Silver wire (non coated) I am going to try on the secondary and primary to see how much that helps.


Edit: one last note the frequency of the latest Xformer was 44.xxx khz.

I will keep you guys updated, look forward to any comments.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2011, 09:29:38 am
Its all about getting a high Q.
A coil with litz wire would work better...

Steve
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 16, 2011, 03:00:30 am
Switched up the X former again.

Did a few different things, not sure on the results of them so not posting info yet.
One addition is instead of 0.1 uf I added another to the driver circuit to drop the freq. some, so primary was 0.2 uf.

Here are some photos on what I discovered:

Photo 1, 10 volts into the driver, Meter to the left Cell current - 1.5 amps, Right Input current - 1.5 amps.
Photo 2, 20 volts into the driver, Meter to the left Cell current - 4.0 amps, Right Input current - 2.6 amps.
Photo 3, 30 volts into the driver, Meter to the left Cell current - 6.7 amps, Right Input current - 3.5 amps.
Photo 4, gas production at 30 volts driver input.
Photo 5 Coil and driver. 12 awg wire now, primary and chokes on left of core, secondary (testing on right.


This shows Meyers non linear increase in current on the cell (or at least I think so).
(see photo 6 Amp leak from the driver becomes less as the voltage is increased, Cell current continues to clime until the desired gas production rate is achieved)


I think I hit level 2 on the graph, Constant applied pulses.

I was taking the cell current up to 10 amps.  I got to 9.5 in the cell, with about 4.2 on the driver and my meter lead jumped off the cell.


Now the driver is not working, but wanted to post this instead of looking into the problem.


Water (distilled) now has 25% by weight (guess) KOH, 1 % NaOH.

The question remains - does the current in the cell surpass the input power at a specific voltage?


I am planning to build a driver for 125 volts input to test this. 


Work is slowing me down some on this end. 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 17, 2011, 02:50:17 am
I found the problem with the driver today, turns out my fuse blew on my meter.  So the mains voltage was lost to the driver.


I tested it with a large resistor instead of water and it is drawing 15 amps in the primary.  I will need to check the fets again, but I dig get 60 khz frequency.

Looking at the above photos I had 10 v, 20 v, and 30 v recorded.  That equals input power of 15 watts, 53 watts, and 106 watts.
Looking at the 30 volt load at 3.54 amps I want to run a comparison to the best series cell.

I will utilize 3 volts per cell (I have heard of 2.2 volts per cell and being the best - but this cell is also producing CO2 in the output due to the electrolyte used.)


So for 30 volts / 3 volts per cell = 10 cells.  10 cells * 3.54 amps = 35.4 amps (gas production).

My goal is to build a set of series cells to see if I can produce more amperage in the cells (using this driver) than the series brute force equivalent at 30 volts input.

Looking at Figure 8 above, the voltage levels are input to the field of an alternator (some proof is the solid voltage V1, V2 - prior to pulsing How can you apply solid voltage to a transformer and make it work?).  So my input voltage is going to be more than this.


I understand most of the figure. 
Solid voltage to L1,
  Brute force.
Pulsed voltage to L2,
Gated pulsed voltage to L3
  Allows higher voltage into the transformer, therefor allowing more current flow in the cell, while keeping the average input current low.
Exciter electrical Isolation L4
  Separate cells for each electrode Isolated water bath - not allowing the current to flow between cells (our standard series cell).


Beyond that I am not sure where the components come into play. 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 04:05:30 am
Little work today.


I replaced one mosfet on the driver and it is back to good now, low current draw on the primary.


I purchased some current sensors to add to the driver, to help incorporate the mark/space system on the pulse train.


(still want to have the auto tune ability, however a predetermined amp draw needs to be established and the off time needs a set point also).
(will be some time before they are put to use in my current driver - still testing out VIC configurations)




To test the current draw with L4 of the graph, Exciter Electrical Isolation (aka series cell), I purchased some wall plates of stainless steel from lowes and some plastic containers from Walmart.
 
This setup is already put together and costs less than the tube cell.  I don't expect the system to "hold up" long term.


I purchased a 200 amp clamp meter that should arrive mid week, look forward to that as 10 amp secondary has been one of my limits in testing (and the loose lead cost a Mosfet, meter fuses, and down time).



Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 15:55:46 pm
I was doing some experiments today and getting mixed results.

I decided to try just the circuit that was first posted, no water fuel cell. 

One amp meter connected to primary, another at the diode in place of the cell.

System was tested at 1 amp, 2 amp draw in the primary, some I could go to 3 amp - but the voltage of 55 is still a limit on this driver.

Here is a chart of the results: (changing cap to test configurations)


uf of cap.         Freq.       Primary Voltage     Primary Current     Secondary Current
0.1                   33.91khz          33v                       1amp                    1.07amp
0.1                                           55v                       2amp                     1.7amp


0.2                   29.93khz          27v                       1amp                    1.5amp
0.2                                           50v                        2amp                    2.9amp


0.3                   26.26khz          24v                       1amp                    1.7amp
0.3                                           50v                        2amp                    4amp


0.4                  23.86khz           20v                        1amp                    1.85amp
0.4                                           45v                         2amp                   4.4 amp


0.5                  22khz               18v                        1amp                     1.84amp
0.5                                           40v                        2amp                     4.5amp


0.6                  20.6khz            17v                        1amp                      1.84amp
0.6                                           37v                        2amp                      4.4amp
0.6                                           52v                        3amp                     7.7amp


0.7                 19.39khz           15v                        1amp                      1.8amp
0.7                                           33v                        2amp                     4.3amp
0.7                                           49v                       3amp                      7.9amp


0.8               NA                       14v                        1amp                      1.8amp
0.8                                          29v                         2amp                     4.2amp
0.8                                          45v                         3amp                     7.6amp

The frequency was changing in the last setup as the voltage increased (I could hear it)  So I did not bother to check it.

Keep in mind this is just a matching transformer.  Next setup is going to incorporate the secondary as well(which is the setup I used on the prior posting).
 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 18:08:21 pm
Same primary as before 5 turns 2x, 5 turns per choke.

I added the secondary of 40 turns on the other half of the core.

Chart

uf of cap.             Freq.             Primary V                    Primary C             Secondary C
0.1                      43.42khz        20v                               1amp                       1.8amp
0.1                                            47v                                2amp                       4.4amp

0.2                      37.43khz        16v                               1amp                        1.9amp
0.2                                             35v                              2amp                         4.6amp
0.2                                            50v                               3amp                        6.5amp

Still having problems with the circulating current being low.

For this next test I removed the secondary choke diodes  allowing AC current in to circulate.

First test showed 1 amp input at 15 volts and 5 amps circulating. 
?

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 21:48:09 pm
I connected a 350 turn secondary to the circuit, replacing the old one, I also replaced the core with another that came in today.
Same size core about the same performance - I now have 18 cores to work with.

I had just the circuit connected as a VIC (transformer), no cell no diodes etc...

A single diode was used to allow the HV from the secondary to the chokes (As the vic shows).

I connected the diode on either side of the chokes, swap leads, one allowed 1 amp draw at the primary and 4.4 amps on the secondary.

The other connection, swap leads, allowed 1 amp draw at primary and 5 amps on the secondary, both with 25 volts input.

I also tried the setup with the secondary not connected.  1 amp at the primary 3.9 amp on the secondary with 22 volts input.
I kept the connection with the most amps in the secondary for further testing.

0.5 amps passing from secondary to chokes (dc or pulsed dc).

I found out my diodes are dropping 1.7 volts per pass - no wonder the current drops so much with them in place. 
I have ordered Schotty diodes with a forward drop of 0.55 - best I could find, 8 amp rating.

I figure this would be 3 times better than my current setup.

I have to find a way to rectify AC without diodes ( or forward voltage drop).  Any ideas please speak up.
The only thought that comes to mind is a mosfet, but I have no idea how to keep it from blowing up on the reverse cycles of the xformer.(basically floating gate voltage from driver to sync xformer output).

One other note at 5 amps secondary I am reading about 70volts at the secondary cap.

Last thing - this will shock the crap out of you! 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 22:15:01 pm
I added the cell now to make sure the voltage / current did not drop, this is my tube cell.

Current stayed the same as without the cell connected,  ;D

Now I need to find some cheap SSRs (solid state relays) for driving this current in and out of the cell.
(possible diode replacements) 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 18, 2011, 23:34:49 pm
I'm trying to figure out if this should be a step up x former - to allow higher voltage(resulting in higher current) or if this should become a step down transformer - driving more current into the secondary - allowing resonance and the PIE increase in voltage to do the work.


So far I have been able to input 1 amp at 15 volts (15 watts) and output 5 amps, then i moved the primary to 2 amps (think 30 volts did not check)(60watts?) and output of 10 amps - meter max.


No gas production as AC was allowed into the cell.


I should be able to drive 40 amps at the cell (estimated 280 volts)(11200 watts) with the input of 60 volts at 4 amps(240watts)


The secondary voltage is kind of null - as i am wanting to achieve maximum amps not volts.
Any thoughts?  I am at a stand still until I get my amp meter and the SSR.



Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 19, 2011, 13:31:04 pm
Hi WJ,

What is the type of SK diode do you use at the moment?

Again , great stuff, with all that high power circulating around!!

Steve
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 19, 2011, 17:49:21 pm
Steve,
I am using this at the cell: HFA15TB60, 600 volt rating, 15 amp, ultra fast/soft recovery
I ordered MBR2030CTL, 30 volt, 20 amp Schottky diodes (since the cell is conductive the voltage across it is small)

Some tests today was trying to figure out how to bypass the diode, trying to sync the signal to a parallel set of Mosfets (more like thoughts not tests).

Using an opti-isolator/coupler  the signal would be out of sync (allowing for rise time of the device and rise time of Fets).

IGBT's transfer current in only one direction, but have the voltage loss problem also.

The SSR's I purchased use SCR's as final output - which again have voltage drop.

I am not sure if the voltage drop is killing the current, or causing it to be out of sync (diode shutting down before 0 crossing / reversal of inductance).

I moved the diode array to the end of the coils, connecting one leg to the cell and the other to the secondary cap.  Only got 0.5 amps into the cell.
I checked the connection between the chokes and it showed the high amperage again, 5 to 10 amps circulating based on input voltage.

I then switched my meters to verify they were reading correctly - no change.


I think I matched my goal of co-equaling the series cells current for current. 


The new problem is achieving DC across the cell, keeping it in sync (kiss method) and maintaining the efficiency needed.
If anyone has any ideas please speak up, the keys "gole"(aka google) are being warn out on my computer.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 19, 2011, 19:46:36 pm
I tried using 4 mosfets as a means to direct the current (ac switch)
No luck - I think the freq. is too high for the internal diodes.
Secondly I tried an external inductor(377mh) and a diode to bypass the inductor in one direction Still a no go.
The inductor presented a reactance that was off the resonate frequency of the xformer - therefore it just created a very large resistor in the circuit.
Still scratching my head on this one. 
I can still get high current and high voltage as long as no other components are in the resonating path.
Can we use AC, untouched no rectification to do electrolysis?  Maybe I need to build a 20-50 kv resonate circuit and find out.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 19, 2011, 20:12:18 pm
with the tube cell connected:


input current(amps)         cell voltage(AC)
1                                          50v
2                                          69v
3                                          105v
4                                          125v


No gas production.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 19, 2011, 22:54:59 pm
I figured I would try something that requires AC to work, a light bulb.


input volts        input amps            output volts         output amps         bulb            resistance(bulb)
25                        3.5                         1.97                       1.43               100w                 10.5
25                        2.65                       1.265                     1.23               60w                   18.8
25                       1.9                          65                          9.04               direct connect wires.
25                       10.5                        16                          1.5                 **See note        11.8
 
**Tried 4x  100 watts and 1x 60 watt in parallel (notice resistance only slightly changed)
A light bulb is a coil of wire so it does have some XL however the primary power draw is in the form of resistance.

All light bulbs are lighting up, but I have no way to establish the intensity of them. I would guess 75% and better on intensity.

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 20, 2011, 00:46:44 am
Resistor check, since the light(inductor) didn't go so well.

At 25 volts in and a 10 ohm resistor I got to see the resistor explode (1/2watt rating)

Here are the rest:
Input voltage        input current           output voltage        output current      Resistance       Notes
5                                2.5a                         na                            0.5                     10                 Smoking hot in a few seconds.
5                                1.9                           12.47                       1.1                     3.3                warm to touch in a few seconds 3x 10 ohm.
5                                1.08                         15.7                         1.6                     1.25              8x 10 ohm parallel

This configuration works backwards of a standard electronics circuit.
The higher the resistance the less efficient the system is.
If/when you achieve 0 resistance it should only draw power to the driver circuit, which means my amp meter is working correctly 10 amp draw with only the wires and wfc connected.

Standard circuits: 5 volts / 1.25 ohms = 4 amp draw from supply, burn out resistors. This circuit allows lower resistance to achieve higher voltage, therefor more current flow.

Still the question remains how to get this AC to DC efficiently for the highly conductive water.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 20, 2011, 02:06:45 am

Follow up of the week.

Any resistance on the tank circuit draws power out of the tank into the component.

This is why Stanley made the VIC in the manner he did.
(my thoughts on this setup as I see them now)

1, the secondary has several turns to boost the chokes(tank) voltage.
2, the chokes are low turns to allow the tank to operate(resonate) several times without all the wire resistance from the secondary.
3, there is an optimum ratio of secondary and choke turns, based on the core design, secondary capacitor, basically energy transfer from primary to secondary/chokes per cycle) More details on this in another section soon.


Basically voltage is read at both ends of the tank(at the capacitor).  The voltage in the middle of the chokes will always read whatever the losses are in the system.

If I take a 9 volt battery and connect positive to negative on another 9 volt battery I have a total of 18 volts.  The voltage between the positive of battery 1 and negative of battery 2 are the losses in the connection.
With a wire the losses are small, close to 0, with a resistor the losses are greater, thereby causing the total voltage to be lower as well(when the positive and negative terminals are connected to an outside source-so current can flow).

That is the example we are doing with the split chokes.  Of coarse no current flows in the battery idea because the two ends are open.  In our VIC the 2 ends connect to a capacitor allowing the charges to move back and forth (inductor/capacitor/water-resistor)
 
I still need to split this AC resonance to feed 2 cells DC only.  I have connected the cells directly with AC (above posting) and the efficiency still remains in the system (several amps AC passing through the water). 

On placing a set of rectifier diodes in the chokes the system quickly looses efficiency.
loosing 0.7v x 2 = 1.4 volts per cycle @ 40khz/second.  The primary supply is replacing this lost voltage every cycle causing the load on the primary.

Any external choke (off the resonating core) will kill the system, as this becomes a large resistance (xL).
I am using distilled water and 25% by weight KOH in the system (about 2lb KOH to a gallon of water)
Again wanting the lowest possible resistance in the water.

Meyer used natural water, but the video of him running the buggy shows a lot of trash in the system (green "stuff" floating in the water).  I want to keep the electrodes clean so I am experimenting with distilled water.

(sorry to edit every post, but my single space keeps turning to double space once I submit the information)
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 21, 2011, 00:59:08 am
I figured out why the current drops so bad in DC, thanks to some friends at work.

First up, the diode is a clipping diode, so from AC to DC cuts the voltage in half (half the current flow due to have the voltage).
(The other half of the voltage / current is being directed to the other diode - which is not connected to the meter.)

A little more than half drop is expected as this is not a full rectification, there is dwell time in the circuit as the current flows in reverse through the other diode, again not where my meter is connected.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 21, 2011, 03:47:34 am
Step down xformer.

Primary 7 turns + 7 turns #12 awg stranded wire
Secondary 3 turns + 3 turns #12 awg stranded wire.

With 30 volts in at 4 amps the cell showed 37 volts at 6.4 amps (with diode).

Step up x former

Reversing the xformer.

Primary 3 turns + 3 turns
Secondary 7 turns + 7 turns.


Primary power supply drawing several amps.  About 15 and up around 10 volts.
Cell showed about 10 amps.

So a simple step-up or step-down xformer is not going to work well.

My best setup remains reply 16 of which I need to setup again and test further.

Further testing will have the primary and chokes of equal turns,  while allowing the secondary to be more turns. 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 22, 2011, 04:19:07 am
Looking over Stan's notes it would appear the primary matched the two chokes.


Patent  5149407
Primary 200 turns 24 awg
Secondary 600 turns 36 awg
1N1198 blocking diode. (40 amp, 600 volts, 10 khz max rating)
Choke 1, 100 turns 24 awg
 
Figure 2 cell size
Outside 0.75 inch outside measurement
Inside 0.50 inch  inside measurement
Spacing 0.0625 inch
26 volts to primary at 10 khz.


While the second choke is left out I believe in other areas it mentions them being the same.
I am going to work towards these specs, but I still need to drive it with AC from my driver. 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 27, 2011, 01:25:15 am
More testing today.


Here is some test data:
11 turns primary 2x
11 turns secondary 2x 
Both 22 awg wire.
SCE stands for Series Cell Equal, so input current * (input voltage / 2)
This setup is just AC circulating in the secondary, no cell, no bridge.


Input V     Input I           Output V            Output I          Secondary Cap (uf)      Res. Freq.(khz)    Input Power(W)     SCE* @ 2 V/Cell (I)
25                0.5                  62                     1.28                       0.1                            16                        12.5                       6
25                1.1                  72.5                  4.78                       1.2                             7.5                      27.5                     13.2
25                1.6                  75.4                  6.86                       2.3                             5.6                      40                        19.2
25                1.9                  75                     8.75                       3.4                            na                        47.5                     22.8
25                2.4                  73                    11                           4.5                            4.7                       60                        28.8
25                3.9                  71.2                 15.3                        6.7                            4.4                       97.5                     46.8


50                1.5                 124                    2.48                       0.1                            16                        75                        37.5
50                2.3                 131                  12.3                         1.2                            9.3                     115                        57.5
50                4.3                 131                  20 +                         2.3                            8.5                     215                        107.5




So as the chart shows I am no where near what a series equivalent circuit will do.  While the secondary circulating power is great, some cases above 1000 watts,  the circulating current remains lower than a series cell equivalent.


The next set of tests was to add the full wave bridge to the setup:


For this I used the 2.3uf cap on the secondary for testing.


Connected         Input V            Input I           Output I           Output V
Nothing                25                    1.6                 6.86                  75
Bridge                  25                    2                    5.8                    77
Bridge & Cell        25                    2.6                 5.6                    75
Bridge & Cell        40                    4.2                 9.7                  108


So the full wave bridge looses 1 amp on the secondary and adds about 1/2 amp to the primary.
Adding the Cell looses 0.2 amp to the secondary and adds 0.6 amps to the primary.


I bypassed the cell to verify it was not wire resistance (to the cell) causing the drop.
I tried heating the water as well with the same results.
Remember this is highly conductive water with lots of KOH added.


My next step was to plot the losses against several cell and compare again to the series cell equivalent.


Cells     Input I          Input V          Series Equ.            Sec. Single I        Sec. Series I
1             2.6                 25                   31.2                        5.6                       5.6
2             3.2                 25                   38.4                        5.4                     10.8
3             3.8                 25                   45.6                        5.2                     15.6
4             4.4                 25                   52.8                        5.0                     20
5             5                    25                   60                           4.8                     24
6             5.6                 25                   67.2                        4.6                     27.6
7             6.2                 25                   74.4                        4.4                     30.8
8             6.8                 25                   81.6                        4.2                     33.6
9             7.4                 25                   88.8                        4.0                     36
10           8                    25                   96                           3.8                     38


1             4.2                 40                   84                           9.7                     9.7


As you can see from this predicted graph, based on above data, the series resonance circuit will not overcome the efficiency of a simple DC series circuit.


Part of this power loss is from these areas: Driver circuit, X former core, Bridge, Skin affect from frequency.


The losses at the cell are omitted as they would be equal on both setup's.




The one positive on this circuit is you can put any electrolyte in the water, any amount and it runs the same.  You can completely short out the cell and still have the system operate - just no gas production.


In this setup my cell was 2 switch cover plates made of SS material.  The spacing was 0.005 inch  with highly conductive water.


I also tried a step up and step down x former again.  The step up reflected the resistance to the primary and multiplied the primary current by the step up factor.
The step down x former showed the same results as the equal x former design.







Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 27, 2011, 11:08:15 am
I can only think of 3 areas to improve this setup.


1, use CRGO (cold rolled grain oriented) x former material - supposed to be the most efficient x former material.


2, Use 2 different metals for the electrodes, Thinking Titanium or Tungsten with SS to generate a small voltage in the water.


Any data on different electrodes to cut down on time?


3, Add a separate power supply to the driver, non variable voltage. This will allow less current draw at higher voltages on the driver.


Of all these setups I am still running above my goal of 12 volts, aka car battery. 
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 27, 2011, 12:25:55 pm
Its nice to play with resonance circuits  :)
But at the end, i ll gues, its still plain electrolysis.
Not 1 cc more gas as with strait DC....

Do you agree?

Steve
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 28, 2011, 02:00:26 am
In looking at the charts I posted my setup is actually about 1/2 of what series electrolysis will do.

Looking over Meyers Independent Evaluation Report  I simply think Stanley proved higher voltage causes rapid gas production.

(actually allowing higher current flow)

One part of this report shows 80 volts to the cell at 5 amps.  That is 400 watts input power. 

Another part shows 40 amps at 10 khz  - the need for the specified diode in the patent (1N1198).

There are gross errors in the evaluation report from Stanley, gas production on standard electrolysis at 4.4amps, and the efficiency  with his 1 L "demo" cell. (gas production rate for that cavity)

I need to get back to why the circulating current is so low in my system and not worry about Stan and his system.


 I will note I have not looked into the super high voltage vic x former yet, with the injector system.  But, looking over what Stanley talked about with his alternator setup, and what it actually was, from the evaluation report, it is difficult to believe in his setup.


Stanley was using a low voltage to pulse the alternator.  The output of the alternator was fed through a diode and into the cell.  Simple electrolysis - no chokes, no resonance, no extras.  Just higher voltage produces gas faster (with higher current also).



Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 29, 2011, 03:35:16 am
I wanted to see what this x former could do so I cranked it up today for one last experiment.


25 volts  input  at  20 amps,  500 watts.
65 volts output at 20 amps, 1300 watts.


Melted the 22 awg wire in about 30 seconds.




I am looking into a Metglas transformer or Amorphous core.  Both are more efficient than CRGO material.
Not sure on price yet with these, but I am guessing they are expensive.


For this past experiment, 20 amps, the core really didn't heat much.  But 30 seconds is a long ways from driving.


Still for input power vs. output current this system does not exceed a simple series cell.

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 30, 2011, 13:44:34 pm
Thanks for the confirmation, WJ...
I also didnt notice any improvement on such setup..

Steve
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 05, 2011, 03:10:45 am
I can only see 2 applications to resonance of the water molecule.


1, using high voltage AC as outlined in the Independent Evaluation.  But keep in mind this is a lot of energy store in the capacitor and welding wire used for the choke.


2, using the primary resonance of the transformer to allow the input voltage to rise 3.14 x input voltage.


Therefor gaining a little voltage boost in the transformer.  I don't know if cupping the secondary to the primary will cause this voltage rise to be lost or not.


Since I am primarily setup for the second option I will look into that first.


Theory would be: 12 volts input,  Primary resonance allows for 36 volts on the input side. 


2 volts needed on highly conductive water, 36 / 2 = 18.   
So I need a step down x former of 18:1.


Whatever the input current is should be about 18x on the secondary, for example 1 amp at 12 volts, allows 18 amps at 2 volts.


I need to allow a little voltage for the bridge drop and transformer efficiency. 


I also want to keep the resonating frequency low, under 20 khz, to keep the skin effect low and XL low.

Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 09, 2011, 04:38:32 am
For this experiment  I simply cut out the transformer.  I used the primary winding as part of the tank circuit and placed the bridge and WFC between the tank inductor and tank capacitor.

The goal was to eliminate the losses of the transformer in this design.

This is for a single cell with plenty of KOH again.
Input voltage is read off the variac, while secondary voltage is measured at the tank capacitor.

V = volts
C = current
P = power
F = frequency

First setup Tank cap 4.5uf
Input V        Input C            Input P(W)              Output A                  Output F
  7                  1.9                     13.3                       2.4                           4.6 k
23                  3.2                     73.6                       8.1                           5.3 k
30                  5                      150                        13                              6.9 k
40                  7.6                   304                        18.8                           8    k

To lower the frequency and see what changes may occur I added to the primary cap.

Tank cap 9.0 uf
Input V        Input C            Input P(W)              Output A                  Output F              Output V              Circulating P (W)
12                  2.9                    34.8                       4.8                             3.3 k                    30                           144
17                  4                       68                          8                                3.8 k                    49                           392
20                  5                     100                        10.5                             4.3 k                    57                           598.5
26                  8                     208                        16                                5.2 k                    65                         1040
33                11                     363                        23                                6.3 k                    81                         1863

At 23 amps on the cell side I smoked my wires to the cell.  Planning on looking over this data awhile.

I am expecting as the ionization energy of the molecules is reached (next level) the cell resistance should drop, therefor allowing the cell current to clime higher and allowing the input current to lower. 

I am thinking I am starting to see the affect, but might be seeing what I want.  I know the plasma electrolysis seems to happen at 200 volts - so my goal is to see the input power required as the secondary hits the 200 v mark and above.  My driver is not made to handle above 200 volts so some updates will be necessary.

One disappointment, and hole in the theory already, is the primary current continues to clime as the voltage is increased.  The losses of the tank circuit should be fixed - therefor raising the voltage should not affect input current.

I am thinking this is my driver (partly) at higher voltage and some skin effect at the higher frequency.

Frequency should be the same regardless of voltage input, because the tank Inductance and tank capacitance do not change.

I guess this means the losses of the cell are less at higher voltage - assuming higher freq. represents less energy drop as a camera flash circuit works.  (as the load diminishes, capacitor charges,  the frequency of the camera flash circuit rises until beyond 20 khz, audible range).


Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 09, 2011, 05:29:42 am
Here are 2 photos on the theory.  Wanted to note theory.

The first represents the water as a resistance.  As it gets closer to ionization the resistance drops.

The second is  input power theory, against tank/cell power theory.

As an example of what I am thinking: Example only.
Input power will need to clime to 2700 watts (30 amps @ 90 volts)  This would be the ionization stage of the water allowing the resistance to drop ( circulating power 250 volts @ 90 amps, 22,500 watts).

Increasing the primary voltage beyond this allows 180 volts @ 5 amps (900 watts) while the Hydrogen released is at a rate of 190 amps.  190 amps circulating in the tank circuit.

Of course there are limits to the current capacity, so multiple cells would be needed.

Also if this theory is correct we can start the cell tank circuit at the 180 volts and bypass the initially high current draws on the primary side.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 09, 2011, 19:22:33 pm
Kiss the above theory goodbye.


I placed a meter directly across the cell today.  The voltage drop, therefor voltage reading, should decrease if the water is ionizing.

At low input voltage I am reading about 1.6 volts across the cell.

As I turn up the voltage I am reading 3.3 volts across the cell.

The 3.3volts across the cell was at 32 amps passing through.

So in all reality I can simply connect a 3.3 volt power supply directly to the cell and allow the 32 amps to pass, 105 watts.

The remaining power in the circuit is recycled by the tank setup however my system is taking 400 + watts to get this affect.


My tube cell has sprung some leaks - so maintenance is needed on that. 

I am really thinking of going back to series cells - as they have proven more efficient and simpler, just a battery, cells and wire.
Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 12, 2011, 20:55:37 pm
Kiss the above theory goodbye.


I placed a meter directly across the cell today.  The voltage drop, therefor voltage reading, should decrease if the water is ionizing.

At low input voltage I am reading about 1.6 volts across the cell.

As I turn up the voltage I am reading 3.3 volts across the cell.

The 3.3volts across the cell was at 32 amps passing through.

So in all reality I can simply connect a 3.3 volt power supply directly to the cell and allow the 32 amps to pass, 105 watts.

The remaining power in the circuit is recycled by the tank setup however my system is taking 400 + watts to get this affect.


My tube cell has sprung some leaks - so maintenance is needed on that. 

I am really thinking of going back to series cells - as they have proven more efficient and simpler, just a battery, cells and wire.

Your conclusion is the same as mine.
As soon as the watercell starts to conduct, you talk about electrolysis.
Then you better use a drycell with strait or unregulated dc for better results.

But if you can prevent current to flow thru the cell, with very short bursts of volts, then maybe we come in the area of Meyer.
Maybe even with a low bias current......

Thanks for your results, WJ!

Steve


Title: Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2011, 23:43:34 pm
Hi, Did anybody try, using a PWM to power a neon DC Transformer ( 15KV  25milliamp) to get pulsed ,high Voltage to the Dry-Cell ? Would it produce HHO gas ?