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Projects by members => Projects by members => Webmug => Topic started by: webmug on March 01, 2011, 16:50:15 pm

Title: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 01, 2011, 16:50:15 pm
Here goes resonance WFC measurements "3-23 VIC"
I have a B&K LCR meter,and have measured it with that.But have no idea on how to use a scope.My scope has stopped working,but I might have found the problem.It has been a hit and miss on working ever since I bought it.My cell measures @ 50uF with city tap water.Thats for a 3 inch long,3/4 inch outside tube with .090" gap,and the center tube is a little longer.
Don
edit:
Dynodon
Length 3 inch = 76.2 millimeters
Outside tube (3/4) inch = 19.05 millimeters
Gap 0.090 inch = 2.28600 millimeters
Capacitance @ 50uF with city tap water

my meter is a VC6243

I get 130 uF with rain water, measuring just one tube on my tubular array, 0.0625 gap

i'm just wondering what kind of inductance to look for, to target 10,000 hz resonance

edit:
Donaldwfc
Gap 0.0625 inch = 1.5875 millimeters
Capacitance @ 130uF with rain water
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF

"By using an appropriate differential amplifier, probe, or isolator, accurate two-point oscilloscope measurements can be made without introducing ground loops or otherwise corrupting the measurement, upsetting the device-under-test, or exposing the user to shock hazard."

When we are going to measure at the wfc cell we are introducing ground loops and corrupting the measurement.
How do we measure at the wfc? ...Differential probe...

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 01, 2011, 17:49:27 pm
webmug,


to measure static electricity you need a connectionless probe electrometer analog or digital. So you can see what is the voltage inside the water... It works by feeling the force of the electric field therefore it don't upset the device like you said...


However to feel see the resonance a simple 1000:1 probe can be the solution, or only a simple feedback coil witch you know the number of turns in relation to the inductor resonating so you can see the induced voltage therefore know what is the voltage level of the resonance.


the resonance feedback stan used only converted the frequency to square wave pulses.. so you could not get the voltage from there...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2011, 23:18:45 pm
I've been busy with my VIC and have not been able to get my coils into resonance with my wfc cell.

Coils I have on the UU-core:
Prim. 600wnd 13.62mH 11.6ohms
Sec. 2000wnd 137.9mH 44.9ohms
Choke1. 2000wnd 135.4mH 46.1ohms
Choke2. 2000wnd 138.6mH 46.5ohms
WFC cell: air=40pF water=1.23mF

I could find resonance with a 1nF 10kV cap (measured 942.2pF) between the chokes as replacement for the wfc cell and
measured this at probe1 to cap NEG and probe2 to cap POS (probe GND not connected to VIC circuit)
We can see a AC voltage swing signal almost equal and opposite voltages at the 1nF capacitor.

How is it possible to get resonance with 1.23mF WFC cell connected and measure 1-2kV?

@Dynodon,outlawstc
Do you have a reading of your WFC cell capacitance?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2011, 00:38:33 am
Webmug,
My cell with tap water measures @ 100uF
Primary coil @ 240 mH
Secondary coil @ 3.8 H
Chokes were @ 8 H
Resonance was in the 30khz range.
 
Your voltage is @ 200v peak to peak
The capacitance of your chokes effect the resonance frequency too.
Your resonance for your cell may be over 20khz.What are you using for a frequency generator,and how high will it go?
Don
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2011, 13:27:43 pm
Webmug,
My cell with tap water measures @ 100uF
Primary coil @ 240 mH
Secondary coil @ 3.8 H
Chokes were @ 8 H
Resonance was in the 30khz range.
 
Your voltage is @ 200v peak to peak
The capacitance of your chokes effect the resonance frequency too.
Your resonance for your cell may be over 20khz.What are you using for a frequency generator,and how high will it go?
Don
Thanks Dynodon!

Ok, new test of my VIC. I have my PLL operating in VCO PULSE mode. (1..100kHz range)
As you can see I have now found resonance at higher frequency @32kHz. Measured with scope connected probe1 and gnd between chokes.
Got voltage AC swing of @1.3kV. (DC 12Volts input) I use a RHRP1560 - Schottky Diode

When you said about the coils having capacitance and effects resonance,
the total capacitance Ct=(CpSec + CpChoke1 + CpChoke2 +Cwfc) is close to the smallest capacitance in the total series circuit?
This Ct and the Lt is the resonance frequency the VIC will resonate? Should Cp be in the nano or pico farad?

When I connect my wfc cell I got resonance @63kHz @99Volts (scope probe1 without gnd to one side of the wfc cell) Gnd is pulling voltage down.
Should I make my WFC cell 2.0mm gap smaller or wider? Your cell is much smaller in capacitance than my cell (1.23mF)

Yes I now, a lot of questions... :-X

br,
Webmug

Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2011, 23:29:29 pm
Quote
When you said about the coils having capacitance and effects resonance,
the total capacitance Ct=(CpSec + CpChoke1 + CpChoke2 +Cwfc) is close to the smallest capacitance in the total series circuit?
This Ct and the Lt is the resonance frequency the VIC will resonate? Should Cp be in the nano or pico farad?

The capacitance of my choke is greater than my wfc's capacitance.So it has more effect on the resonance frequency.Only the positive choke is effecting the resonance frequency.The negative choke doesn't change it.
 
Choke capacitance could be in the uF range or larger.Measure yours and see what you get.It's a factor of the number of turns you have on you chokes windings.A coil with mulitiple row of turns has a greater effect on it's capacitance,than a single row of turns.What I mean is,lets say you have a single row of turns that measures 10 uF.Now lets put two rows of turns on that same bobbin that has twice the number of turns as the first.Will you have twice the capacitance? NO! Why?
Because the capacitance is between the wires insulation,and now with two rows ,you get the wires acting on the ones besides each other as well as the ones on top of each one.The capacitance grows fast with multi layers.
 
The gap of your cell is fine.Measuring a cell's capacitance is not easy,and I'm not sure whats the best way to do it.I use a B&K Precision meter that cost $300.And I'm not sure if it is even right.
What are you using,or are you just calculating?The later I don't think will work either.
Don   
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 00:06:20 am
Quote
When you said about the coils having capacitance and effects resonance,
the total capacitance Ct=(CpSec + CpChoke1 + CpChoke2 +Cwfc) is close to the smallest capacitance in the total series circuit?
This Ct and the Lt is the resonance frequency the VIC will resonate? Should Cp be in the nano or pico farad?

The capacitance of my choke is greater than my wfc's capacitance.So it has more effect on the resonance frequency.Only the positive choke is effecting the resonance frequency.The negative choke doesn't change it.
 
Choke capacitance could be in the uF range or larger.Measure yours and see what you get.It's a factor of the number of turns you have on you chokes windings.A coil with mulitiple row of turns has a greater effect on it's capacitance,than a single row of turns.What I mean is,lets say you have a single row of turns that measures 10 uF.Now lets put two rows of turns on that same bobbin that has twice the number of turns as the first.Will you have twice the capacitance? NO! Why?
Because the capacitance is between the wires insulation,and now with two rows ,you get the wires acting on the ones besides each other as well as the ones on top of each one.The capacitance grows fast with multi layers.
 
The gap of your cell is fine.Measuring a cell's capacitance is not easy,and I'm not sure whats the best way to do it.I use a B&K Precision meter that cost $300.And I'm not sure if it is even right.
What are you using,or are you just calculating?The later I don't think will work either.
Don
I do measurements with a LCR40 from PEAK and also did calculations.
http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_lcr40.html (http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_lcr40.html)

My wild guess is to make my chokes bigger for more capacitance but also I get more than 2000 windings.
If I wind 3000 on one choke bobbin I'm not going to measure above 1H inductance as your coils.
Who knows how many capacitance it has. More to learn and test...

But first I'm going to do a few more tests with my current setup.

@Dynodon,
How is your status with the VIC and WFC cell? Have you GATED your cell with 2kV?
My guess it should be low frequency. Any stepcharge?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 03:32:16 am
The chokes I had that was giving me the 2kv,are no more.They were shorting out internally.So I tore them down and wound smaller ones.So I am no longer getting 2kv.I've been testing different ideas since then.Trying to get those unipolar pulses all positive with no negative swing like your seeing now.Alot more people are now finding resonance,like I have done over a year and a half ago.So now you guys are at where I was then.

I have tried gating with my set up and have seen step charging,but still have the negative component,and a sine wave.
Just need to get it all positive and frequency doubling.I have never seen frequency doubling without using full bridge rectifying.
 
I haven't been working on it lately,I have been working on my homebuilt airplane.I have put my plane project on hold for way too long.I finished my Gyrocopter last summer and had it flying,so now it's time to get back to work on my plane.
It's a WWII Corsair replica,half scale.It's about 3/4 finished.
 
Don
 
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 04:11:48 am
Great to hear about your airplane and gyrocopter Don, thats cool stuff.

here is a picture of the RVIC waveform of a single phase, the right side is a fully unipolar core, and the left side is after one diode failed and the core was now ac

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture21-3.png)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 04:25:15 am
hey Don,
If you read Stan's notes and patents he never really says what the resonant signal looks like. All he says is the input signal is always unipolar. If  you would look at one of the threads I posted in earlier, http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5) you will see how the pulse indicator circuit works and how it lets the PLL know when resonance occurs. The resonant signal in the LC circuit will always be bipolar no matter what.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 05:15:13 am
you say stans pll circuit triggers on a ac signal? is that how his works or was that just for your circuit?


i know Stephen's circuit has bipolar ringing, but both sides ring bipolar so that the net voltage between them is always unipolar



Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 05:18:53 am
The OpAmp of the Pulse Indicator circuit will take the bipolar signal and covert it to a 50% duty cycle square wave only when resonance is detected, other wise the signal to pin 14 of the 4046 will be high.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 08:14:10 am
Have you guys looked at my scope shot.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1934.msg19407#msg19407 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1934.msg19407#msg19407)
Voltage is swinging AC between the chokes but opposite and almost equal in potential to eachother.
So the WFC has flipping pos. and neg. and max voltage swing between the plates.
The pickup coil never sees the same signal as on the wfc, only AC from the resonance on the core.

That's what I'm seeing this moment, more to discover...

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 11, 2011, 10:12:14 am
I see that webmug, i just can't get on board with the ac theory, i see the diodes making a second pulse in the rvic, i still have more to understand, the 3 phases mutually induct with each other so a double pulse in one phase shows up in the other phases too, so it's like i get 9x the pulses haha, but when you combine all the phases you would lose that distinction as they overlap


for the pulse indicator circuit, if it is designed to lock onto an ac signal, i cant say, i don't yet have the experience to figure that out, the feedback coil does not have a diode in it's circuit like the rest of the vic does, so there is nothing stopping it from swinging below zero while the rest of the circuit is step charging up in a unipolar fashion


remember that he calls it a "Resonant Charging Choke Circuit", which is strictly dc resonant charging terminology, when you have AC resonance you just call it LC resonance or an inductor, but a resonant charging choke circuit is specific, and means that energy builds up in the circuit over several pulses, Stan likes to name things, but his names are exact and precise! Rotary Pulse Voltage Frequency Generator Assembly for example, what a name! but break it down word by word and that's exactly what the thing does, for every single thing he names, Electrical Polarization Process... thats what we are trying to do, polarize the water in an electric field until the applied electrical force is greater than the covalent bond, you cant do that with ac unless it is strong enough to rip the water apart during each and every pulse
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 12, 2011, 17:55:10 pm
I see that webmug, i just can't get on board with the ac theory, i see the diodes making a second pulse in the rvic, i still have more to understand, the 3 phases mutually induct with each other so a double pulse in one phase shows up in the other phases too, so it's like i get 9x the pulses haha, but when you combine all the phases you would lose that distinction as they overlap


for the pulse indicator circuit, if it is designed to lock onto an ac signal, i cant say, i don't yet have the experience to figure that out, the feedback coil does not have a diode in it's circuit like the rest of the vic does, so there is nothing stopping it from swinging below zero while the rest of the circuit is step charging up in a unipolar fashion


remember that he calls it a "Resonant Charging Choke Circuit", which is strictly dc resonant charging terminology, when you have AC resonance you just call it LC resonance or an inductor, but a resonant charging choke circuit is specific, and means that energy builds up in the circuit over several pulses, Stan likes to name things, but his names are exact and precise! Rotary Pulse Voltage Frequency Generator Assembly for example, what a name! but break it down word by word and that's exactly what the thing does, for every single thing he names, Electrical Polarization Process... thats what we are trying to do, polarize the water in an electric field until the applied electrical force is greater than the covalent bond, you cant do that with ac unless it is strong enough to rip the water apart during each and every pulse
Yes, I also do know that we can not charge a capacitor with AC and I agree what you said about DC resonant charging.

I tried different coils configurations, but alway it's AC signal at the WFC on resonance frequency.
Also switched diode types and reverse polarity from the coils at the diode... always AC at the WFC.
Diode has no effect at this moment, so something isn't right with my VIC.
It looks like what I did in simulator. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1305.msg19020#msg19020 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1305.msg19020#msg19020)

So I am where Dynodon is also stuck.

Played with GATE signal on the PLL inhibit pin with PULSE as resonance frequency. (see scope shots)

If you guys have ideas, please let me know.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2011, 18:37:45 pm
hey Don,
If you read Stan's notes and patents he never really says what the resonant signal looks like. All he says is the input signal is always unipolar. If  you would look at one of the threads I posted in earlier, http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5) you will see how the pulse indicator circuit works and how it lets the PLL know when resonance occurs. The resonant signal in the LC circuit will always be bipolar no matter what.

Hi Tony
Do You remember this quote from Stans patent:
In a typical operation of the cell with a representative water capacitor described below, at a frequency of about 5 KHz at unipolar pulses from 0 to 650 volts at a sensed resonant condition into the resonant cavity, conversion of about 5 gallons of water per hour into a fuel gas will occur on average.

" at unipolar pulses from 0 to 650 volts "
?
 andy
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2011, 13:23:27 pm
Update: I did a few measurements.
First one was on a toroid 230V to 12V transformer 60VA in reverse. I DC pulsed the 12V side (0V=OFF 12V=ON) and measured the output @230V side.
This signal was PULSED going positive to negative and back @ 50% duty cycle.

My VIC coils primary and secondary doesn't give the same signal as the toroid when PULSED, no PULSE output.
When I found the resonance frequency of the VIC coil it was AC. On the toroid I couldn't find resonance, only PULSE.

I connected the toroid to the blocking diode, chokes and wfc.
I noticed a few thing when I started GATING the PULSE signal on the toroid transformer.
When the GATE duty cycle was small I started to see offset to almost DC PULSE on POS+ and NEG- at the 230V coil.

I tell you guys, it's the core material that gives PULSE as a PULSE transformer and the resistance of the chokes to get step-charge.
The step-charge isn't high enough due the few windings on the transformer. Total current was 10mA on the primary.

Problem I now have is that I don't have negative signal in this set-up due I don't have the chokes on one core, so more to solve.
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1305.msg19005#msg19005 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1305.msg19005#msg19005))

@Donaldwfc, could you measure the output of the transformer made by Brian, to see if it's PULSED?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 16, 2011, 15:40:24 pm
Update:
Finally I got my coil 'values' the way I want them to be on a core 8) (measurement f=1kHz)

I used laminated metal plates for the core (15 x 13mm).
Stan used a very thin core. I would like to know what kind of ferrite type core it was to get those values!

When the primary is pulsed the signal at the secondary coil should also be pulsed (impulses) and stepped-up and I don't see pulses with my core. Instead I see AC signal when in resonance (Cpp and L). When pulsed the Sec coil should not go in resonance in 1Hz to about 15kHz range.
Pulses should go through the diode into the choke to the WFC. That's the PULSE TRANSFORMER what Stan talks about.

Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 16, 2011, 19:07:51 pm
nice vic!
i'm getting an ac signals as well,
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 17, 2011, 12:12:50 pm
nice vic!
i'm getting an ac signals as well,
Interesting!
What kind of wire are you using, enameled copper wire or enameled aluminum wire.
I'm using enameled copper wire on laminated plates core.

Ferrite Manganese Zinc (Mn-Zn) or Nickel Zinc (Ni-Zn) core?
Can not see what kind of material it is on Don his photos of the VIC.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 18, 2011, 02:06:37 am
I'm using copper, with the same kind of core material as you, but i'm about ready to start on my new vic.
Don said the core Stan used looked like hard ferrite, so since he used between 0 and 10 khz that would mean he was most likely using a Manganese Zinc ferrite, having permeability’s above 1000. 
 
Anyway, right now i'm getting an ac signal at resonance with 1000 volts across the cell. If I move out of resonance to a different frequency range I read a pulsing signal that switches between 0 volts and around 200 volts. I want to look into this further.
 
what kind of voltage are you getting with your vic?
 
here is a picture of my cores and bobbins
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 18, 2011, 21:19:23 pm
I'm using copper, with the same kind of core material as you, but i'm about ready to start on my new vic.
Don said the core Stan used looked like hard ferrite, so since he used between 0 and 10 khz that would mean he was most likely using a Manganese Zinc ferrite, having permeability’s above 1000. 
 
Anyway, right now i'm getting an ac signal at resonance with 1000 volts across the cell. If I move out of resonance to a different frequency range I read a pulsing signal that switches between 0 volts and around 200 volts. I want to look into this further.
 
what kind of voltage are you getting with your vic?
 
here is a picture of my cores and bobbins
Isn't hard ferrite used for permanent magnets? If that core was a magnet it would be useless for pulse signals or not?

Soft ferrite: "The low coercivity means the material's magnetization can easily reverse direction without dissipating much energy"
Hard ferrite: "high coercivity and high remanence after magnetization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_%28magnet%29

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 19, 2011, 22:57:49 pm
Don did say it looked like hard ferrite, but I agree, thats why i'm using a soft ferrite.
 
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 22, 2011, 11:28:29 am
I'm using copper, with the same kind of core material as you, but i'm about ready to start on my new vic.
Don said the core Stan used looked like hard ferrite, so since he used between 0 and 10 khz that would mean he was most likely using a Manganese Zinc ferrite, having permeability’s above 1000. 
 
Anyway, right now i'm getting an ac signal at resonance with 1000 volts across the cell. If I move out of resonance to a different frequency range I read a pulsing signal that switches between 0 volts and around 200 volts. I want to look into this further.
 
what kind of voltage are you getting with your vic?
 
here is a picture of my cores and bobbins
Isn't hard ferrite used for permanent magnets? If that core was a magnet it would be useless for pulse signals or not?

Soft ferrite: "The low coercivity means the material's magnetization can easily reverse direction without dissipating much energy"
Hard ferrite: "high coercivity and high remanence after magnetization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_%28magnet%29

Br,
Webmug


Webmug,

Using a magnet for core is possible.
Only if your coils are producing a greater magneticfield then the magnet.
That way you will notice a change in the magnetic field and my theory is that that also is doing something.
For Meyer cores, i would suggest to stay at cores that fits the frequency, raise and fall times.

Steve
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 22, 2011, 16:00:07 pm
hmm, interesting
 
well I asked Don about it, he said his cores are hard ferrite but not magnets. maybe wikipedia isn't the best place to get info from haha
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 27, 2011, 17:20:22 pm
Test VIC number 5  :-X
Looks a bit buggy but I have tested another ferrite core in my VIC. Due to the generated magnetic field the core is held together.
It generates about 528Vpp AC signal at a choke (measured choke WFC+ to gnd) 12V @20mA, so it looks the same as my other tested ferrite cores!

I can shift the offset above zero when I place a 1Mohm resistor between sec. GND and choke.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1934.msg19567.html#msg19567 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1934.msg19567.html#msg19567)

On resonance my sec. generates 1kVpp AC.

Laminated core doesn't generate enough volts, stuck at 30V AC.

I do not know how to get rid of the AC swing at the chokes and get opposite voltage, so I assume I'm doing something really wrong here or missing things 8)

Ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 29, 2011, 00:21:30 am
I'm using copper, with the same kind of core material as you, but i'm about ready to start on my new vic.
Don said the core Stan used looked like hard ferrite, so since he used between 0 and 10 khz that would mean he was most likely using a Manganese Zinc ferrite, having permeability’s above 1000. 
 
Anyway, right now i'm getting an ac signal at resonance with 1000 volts across the cell. If I move out of resonance to a different frequency range I read a pulsing signal that switches between 0 volts and around 200 volts. I want to look into this further.
 
what kind of voltage are you getting with your vic?
 
here is a picture of my cores and bobbins
Isn't hard ferrite used for permanent magnets? If that core was a magnet it would be useless for pulse signals or not?

Soft ferrite: "The low coercivity means the material's magnetization can easily reverse direction without dissipating much energy"
Hard ferrite: "high coercivity and high remanence after magnetization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_%28magnet%29

Br,
Webmug


Webmug,

Using a magnet for core is possible.
Only if your coils are producing a greater magneticfield then the magnet.
That way you will notice a change in the magnetic field and my theory is that that also is doing something.
For Meyer cores, i would suggest to stay at cores that fits the frequency, raise and fall times.

Steve
Stan talks about a pulse transformer for the VIC transformer.

What is a pulse transformer?

"The magnetic flux in a typical A.C. transformer core alternates between positive and negative values. The magnetic flux in the typical pulse transformer does not. The typical pulse transformer operates in an “unipolar” mode ( flux density may meet but does not cross zero ).
A fixed D.C. current could be used to create a biasing D.C. magnetic field in the transformer core, thereby forcing the field to cross over the zero line. Pulse transformers usually (not always) operate at high frequency necessitating use of low loss cores (usually ferrites)."
http://www.butlerwinding.com/store.asp?pid=28355 (http://www.butlerwinding.com/store.asp?pid=28355)

What about the VIC circuit, does it do D.C. biasing to make it a pulse transformer?
Does a flat transformer core use less biasing D.C. magnetic field?
Could it be that a hard ferrite core operates in an “unipolar” mode?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 29, 2011, 06:30:44 am
Stan has it labeled D.C pulsing core I think in one of his drawings of the Vic transformer.... The secondary is divided into 3rds which are Secondary, +choke and -choke....

  A diode separates 1/3 of the secondary from the other 2/3 of secondary.. That one third is the positive choke...  Everytime the transformer is pulsed there are electrons removed from the positive choke.. They do not go back into it since the diode is there to block that from happening.. The only thing i can imagine is as the positive choke charges you get a build up of electrons within the inductor core that is within the positive choke wind region.. While the negative side rejects them within its region of the inductor core..

not totally clear on what happens inside ferrite quite yet.. not sure if the electrons are free to move in them or if they are locked in domains.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 29, 2011, 15:14:36 pm
Stan has it labeled D.C pulsing core I think in one of his drawings of the Vic transformer.... The secondary is divided into 3rds which are Secondary, +choke and -choke....

  A diode separates 1/3 of the secondary from the other 2/3 of secondary.. That one third is the positive choke...  Everytime the transformer is pulsed there are electrons removed from the positive choke.. They do not go back into it since the diode is there to block that from happening.. The only thing i can imagine is as the positive choke charges you get a build up of electrons within the inductor core that is within the positive choke wind region.. While the negative side rejects them within its region of the inductor core..

not totally clear on what happens inside ferrite quite yet.. not sure if the electrons are free to move in them or if they are locked in domains.
@outlawstc,
Stan named a label: "unipolar magnetic field coupling" "pulsing core" (fig.190) also he mentions applying voltage amplitude (Vo xxx Vn).

What does he mean with voltage amplitude Vo: GND??, zero?? or above zero??, or one. (3-7) (fig.3-19). Vn is 12V PULSE ON. So if this Vo is not zero then we have a offset (d.c.bias)...
If voltage is switched off, in one figure he shows a pulse above zero as Vo. (fig.680) Pulse train is Vn.
When he talks about the BLOCKING DIODE what does it also do if there is above zero voltage when PULSE OFF? He said it is preventing a short circuit. The core should maintain above zero flux so then we have unipolar magnetic field coupling.
If this is not maintained we end up having AC signal and no resonant charging choke effect?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 31, 2011, 09:31:47 am
"voltage amplitude (VO xxx Vn) of Figure (3-19) to vary from one up to twelve volts (battery supply _28_ of Figure _3-_6 )"
 
 
Could it be that pulstrain is biased ?

 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 31, 2011, 10:47:55 am
Remember that most diodes need a minimum voltage to be in conducting state. When you keep a minimum of 0.5-1 volts on the diode you ensure that it keeps in the conducting state. If you would not do that you will loose part of your pulse on the switching time of the diode.

Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 31, 2011, 14:06:23 pm
"voltage amplitude (VO xxx Vn) of Figure (3-19) to vary from one up to twelve volts (battery supply _28_ of Figure _3-_6 )"
 
 
Could it be that pulstrain is biased ?

 
He probably means that the pulse has an amplitude from minimum 0V to 1V and max. 0V to 12V that regulates the gas production.
When I look at the circuit I see no offset added to the TX1 coil so pulse is OFF (0V)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 01, 2011, 11:46:52 am
Tell me your findings / opinion...

Look at the pulse/gate waveform in the attachment.

Step-charging effect increases in a "LINEAR" fashion.

We can see that the pulse waveform never reach zero level. Stan said it sustains resonance.
So this can be the answer to keep the flux above zero in the core.

Most of us use MOSFETS why did Stan use TRANSISTORS?

Is there an bias in the circuit schematic?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 01, 2011, 13:22:20 pm
Hmm, I thought stan's driver was just old school. we need to just build it and find out
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 01, 2011, 21:30:14 pm
From the patent (1992-US005149207A):

"...(B) subjecting the capacitor to a pulsating, unipolar electric voltage field in which the polarity does not pass beyond an arbitrary ground..."

"...increase in cascading incremental steps in proportion to the number of pulses; (E) maintaining the charge..."

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 02, 2011, 09:02:01 am
Tell me your findings / opinion...

Look at the pulse/gate waveform in the attachment.

Step-charging effect increases in a "LINEAR" fashion.

We can see that the pulse waveform never reach zero level. Stan said it sustains resonance.
So this can be the answer to keep the flux above zero in the core.

Most of us use MOSFETS why did Stan use TRANSISTORS?

Is there an bias in the circuit schematic?

Br,
Webmug


You also should transistors instead of fets.
Use the 3055, for example.
Fets have some components build in , like diodes etc.
I have seen bouncing signals on my scope, which looked like resonance.
However, it was the fet that was demping my signal, and did that in a bouncing manner.
When i used transistors, the effect was gone.
Then i saw the real signal of the bemf. Just one nice negative spike.
Just try, i would say. Observe.


Steve
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 14:53:40 pm
Well as I can tell, this Cell Driver Circuit is a Class A Amplifier!
Stan has the TIP120 on a very large cooling backplate (the VIC box) so this tells me that the TIP120 is always in the ON state.

The signal has a BIAS (resistor divider) at the base, so the signal never goes zero when pulsing/gating so there is always current flowing.
The good part is that a TIP120 is a Darlington so current is gained and heat is reduced.
This configuration named:  Transformer Coupled Amplifier is the basis of the Primary driver.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 15:07:25 pm
That's very interesting! do you think this will keep the wave from going below zero on the scope?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 15:13:30 pm
That's very interesting! do you think this will keep the wave from going below zero on the scope?
Yes!
When a AC swing (input signal) goes into the base there is an offset to the output voltage. So you can make the offset that the AC swing will never go below zero voltage. When this happens the transistor will be clipping the negative part.

When a DC pulse is given to the base there will be higher voltage at the output (because of missing negative part).
So offset could be lowered.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 18:42:07 pm
Webmug,


sooooooooooooooo..........  if i take my 8xa coil, diode, gating pwm and tube setup and switch out the negative side mosfet and diode with a positive side TIP120 and diode as you describe then my negative and positive swinging pulse filled sine waves will now be only positive on the oscope?   this I gotta see
I'm ready to give it a try...  please advise


kb

Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 19:08:41 pm
I'm talking about the Resonance WFC cell driver circuit, not a 8XA coil.

To make it more clearer see fig below.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 23:21:46 pm
gotcha, thanks for circuit diagram, I may try it anyway into my 3 inch, 1/2 mm gap tubes....  after my bifilar toroid
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 14:19:25 pm
@Dave, All,

This is what I measured on a 10kV 1nf capacitor.
Could be the above 0V voltage that brings up the "above ground level".
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg22180.html#msg22180
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1305.msg22161.html#msg22161

PULSE TRANSFORMER The typical pulse transformer operates in an “unipolar” mode ( flux density may meet but does not cross zero ).
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1934.msg20298.html#msg20298

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 19:44:24 pm
looks pretty good to me. So 500 volts or so is the highest you've gotten?
Anything special you did to get your singnal inverted like that?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 21:41:46 pm
looks pretty good to me. So 500 volts or so is the highest you've gotten?
Anything special you did to get your singnal inverted like that?
My chokes are not tuned, the voltage amplitudes are not equal but have opposite voltages when I vary the pulse frequency. I can not tune it with the pulse and gate signals. Chokes are not matched!
I tested this on a 10kV 1nf HV capacitor, when I use my wfc this waveform is not there. So the cell specs are very important to minimize leakage, I think...

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 21:54:15 pm
Ok I see, I can get the correct waveform when I don't have the cell hooked up. The closer we get to what stan had the better at this point. If there is an unknown variable maybe we can stumble across it.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 22:35:27 pm
Just curious, do you get the desired waveform from the cell being dry or without water in it?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 22:42:01 pm
Just curious, do you get the desired waveform from the cell being dry or without water in it?
Waveform above from 1nf HV 10kV capacitor.
Cell was submerged in tap-water no waveform.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2012, 23:15:28 pm
And what is the dielectric material between the two plates inside the HV capacitor you are using?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 07:29:49 am
Just curious, do you get the desired waveform from the cell being dry or without water in it?
Waveform above from 1nf HV 10kV capacitor.
Cell was submerged in tap-water no waveform.

Br,
Webmug


Yea thats the same problem I've been running into lately. The cell when in contact with water has been causing a dead short condition. The only time that I haven't got this dead short condition is when I get resonance using the 8XA circuit with my modified MOT which I used as the chokes. The cell actually acts like a capacitor and charges to very high voltages.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 13:28:21 pm
And what is the dielectric material between the two plates inside the HV capacitor you are using?
1000pF 10KV High Voltage Capacitor HV Tesla Coil Ham

HV Polypropylene Capacitor
Dielectric Constant 1.5
http://www.asiinstr.com/technical/Dielectric%20Constants.htm

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 15:51:50 pm
Just curious, do you get the desired waveform from the cell being dry or without water in it?
Waveform above from 1nf HV 10kV capacitor.
Cell was submerged in tap-water no waveform.

Br,
Webmug


Yea thats the same problem I've been running into lately. The cell when in contact with water has been causing a dead short condition. The only time that I haven't got this dead short condition is when I get resonance using the 8XA circuit with my modified MOT which I used as the chokes. The cell actually acts like a capacitor and charges to very high voltages.
Hi Tony,

So what are the differences between resonance VIC and 8xA coils, causing not a dead short condition? ???

Got any ideas? Core material magnetic field (chokes) restrict current more effective in your 8xA circuit?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 16:09:03 pm
And what is the dielectric material between the two plates inside the HV capacitor you are using?
1000pF 10KV High Voltage Capacitor HV Tesla Coil Ham

HV Polypropylene Capacitor
Dielectric Constant 1.5
http://www.asiinstr.com/technical/Dielectric%20Constants.htm

Br,
Webmug

And what is the dielectric constant of air?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 16:22:44 pm
And what is the dielectric material between the two plates inside the HV capacitor you are using?
1000pF 10KV High Voltage Capacitor HV Tesla Coil Ham

HV Polypropylene Capacitor
Dielectric Constant 1.5
http://www.asiinstr.com/technical/Dielectric%20Constants.htm

Br,
Webmug

And what is the dielectric constant of air?
I have no idea, enlighten us.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 19:21:07 pm
The 8xa is the only replication which is charging the cell to a high voltage because it makes the
correct waveform which is a result of the full wave rectification.

You cannot charge a capacitor  to a high voltage with ac, and that is the problem we are all having with the 5 coil vic.


Webmug, the vic being a pulse transformer is what I have also figured out.
And this is where the problems start. Pulsing a coil with a square wave and getting
a square wave out takes precise engineering and coil design knowledge. If even one parameter
of the coil is incorrect the coil will output ac. This is why replication is so difficult.
The vic is an adaptation of a D.C. resonant charging circuit!

BTW-WHAT DOES PAGE 1-1 OF THE TECH BRIEF CALL THE VIC?
-A PULSING TRANSFORMER
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 19:28:05 pm
wish that what you are saying is true HMS
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 19:38:59 pm
We must be getting close - this website seems very slow lately.
Perhaps someone does not want us to solve this problem? ;)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 20:57:24 pm
The 8xa is the only replication which is charging the cell to a high voltage because it makes the
correct waveform which is a result of the full wave rectification.

You cannot charge a capacitor  to a high voltage with ac, and that is the problem we are all having with the 5 coil vic.


Webmug, the vic being a pulse transformer is what I have also figured out.
And this is where the problems start. Pulsing a coil with a square wave and getting
a square wave out takes precise engineering and coil design knowledge. If even one parameter
of the coil is incorrect the coil will output ac. This is why replication is so difficult.
The vic is an adaptation of a D.C. resonant charging circuit!

BTW-WHAT DOES PAGE 1-1 OF THE TECH BRIEF CALL THE VIC?
-A PULSING TRANSFORMER
If this was the function, the PLL is not needed?
Resonance is AC but perhaps there is something missing in the circuit as in input signal what we didn't replicate.
What it is could be tested if we have the proper setup, wfc and Vic setup. We want the core to maintain it's magnetic field. If it collapses then you get neg swing. Just like a dc pulse transformer has bias voltage to prevent neg voltage. You are right, DC unipolar pulses charge caps. Bottom choke mirrors neg voltage because it is connected in reverse.

But it is a wild guess and I didn't test it. I could be completely wrong here. That's the only thing I can think of at this moment.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 23:07:18 pm
The chart you posted says 1. I was hoping you would make the correlation and find a better understanding of why you get the waveforms you are seeing with what you are charging, whether the dielectric is water, air , or polypropylene. If you are going to continue to slap together random sized components and wonder why it does or doesn't work, then I can only offer suggestions as to why.

Have you measured the self resonant frequencies of each coil separately? Have you measured the actual weight of each choke?



Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 23:19:33 pm
What does the weight of the coil have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 23:34:55 pm
Measuring weight is a much easier method of matching coils. Each choke should have equal amount of mass.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2012, 23:56:53 pm
The chart you posted says 1. I was hoping you would make the correlation and find a better understanding of why you get the waveforms you are seeing with what you are charging, whether the dielectric is water, air , or polypropylene. If you are going to continue to slap together random sized components and wonder why it does or doesn't work, then I can only offer suggestions as to why.

Have you measured the self resonant frequencies of each coil separately? Have you measured the actual weight of each choke?
Ok, I slap together random sized components...
What does the gas processor do? What is the dielectric constant between the exciters? 1...?
I have dead short condition because I don't have unipolar waveform.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 24, 2012, 01:41:33 am
 weight would exclude the capacitance of the coils.
But yeah maybe that would get you close. I'd rather judge by inductance resistance and capacitance
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 18:27:26 pm
NOTE. Russ has the Unipolar signal output from the VIC on iron core.
t=416s

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 19:56:25 pm
So I see Russ has finally caught up with me and Don and gotten the same waveform with the 180* phase shift.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2012, 20:05:33 pm
So I see Russ has finally caught up with me and Don and gotten the same waveform with the 180* phase shift.
Well I do not know him, but he also shares his stuff and that is great!

Looks like scope probe GND won't effect the VIC output signal. He also has WFC cells, wondering what will happen if he connected one. 8)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 00:44:09 am
Yeah, he hasn't told me to much about tests with his cell hooked up. Just with the leads floating. I'm sure we will see.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 03:48:07 am
That's just it. You can get these measurements with dry cells, unterminated leads, and capacitors. All instances include a dielectric... Other than water... These results should prove one of Stan's theories. "The pulse and charge status of the water/capacitor never passing through an arbitrary ground."
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 04:44:53 am
"The pulse and charge status of the water/capacitor never passing through an arbitrary ground."

From what I understand by Stan talking about the arbitrary ground, is that the LC circuit should not be grounded at all. It should be totally isolated.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 05:34:25 am
I think Tony is right about the VIC and a ground....The VIC is not meant to be grounded (at least the 5 coil VIC).

If you put 100V to a load with one side grounded you will have +100V at one side and the other side will be 0V.
If you do not ground the load you have +100V at one side and -100 at the other...The one which is not grounded has twice the voltage across it.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 07:09:27 am
What you guys are talking about sounds right on theoreticly but the water capacitor just doesn't seem to function like a real capacitor. If you place a ground where Stan shows without a resister you will not only lose your voltage on the L2 side but the voltage on the L1 side will be drastically decreased. As for getting a unipolar pulse from the resonance between L1 and the water capacitor, it makes sense because of the diode but that's just not what I see with the water capacitor. Getting the signals correct on the scope without the leads hooked up or with a normal capacitor is just not the same as when your using the water cap. Maybe all these thoughts are in the right direction but I think we really need to focus on getting the correct waveforms across the water cap and addressing the issues that are stopping us from doing so. These are just my opinions and what I have seen. If you guys think I'm wrong please correct me with your work and experiences.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 13:54:45 pm
What you guys are talking about sounds right on theoreticly but the water capacitor just doesn't seem to function like a real capacitor. If you place a ground where Stan shows without a resister you will not only lose your voltage on the L2 side but the voltage on the L1 side will be drastically decreased. As for getting a unipolar pulse from the resonance between L1 and the water capacitor, it makes sense because of the diode but that's just not what I see with the water capacitor. Getting the signals correct on the scope without the leads hooked up or with a normal capacitor is just not the same as when your using the water cap. Maybe all these thoughts are in the right direction but I think we really need to focus on getting the correct waveforms across the water cap and addressing the issues that are stopping us from doing so. These are just my opinions and what I have seen. If you guys think I'm wrong please correct me with your work and experiences.
That's a good thing to do focussing on the waveform.
Question: Stans cavity was pressurized and heated? water was circulated between the wfc gap with a pump.
Is this a good thing to consider, create water flow through the wfc to get improvements with this waveform?
I guess someone has tested this with waterflowing, what will happen to the voltage at a cell?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 17:03:22 pm
Regarding grounding with a resistor, it can be used to eliminate the negative ringing voltage on the oscope from what I've seen.  When you guys speak of 100v in, for example, is it reference to 100v ptp which is mostly ringing voltage right?  Is this what HMS means by 200v being twice the voltage as a swing from positive voltage peak to negative voltage peak?

 

Or are you measuring and stating actual pulse voltage peaks on your screens?

Like Bubz I think keeping voltage exclusively positive without the swing into negative may be a factor. 

I play with the ground resistance now to see if it is an avenue to creating the unipolar voltage screenshot.

kb
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2012, 04:20:40 am
Stephen Meyer mentions in one of the radio interviews that the waveform is very important. In the follow image I explain my theory on how this particular waveform is made and where the high frequency ringing comes from. I also show a waveform that I have gotten and it has similarities to Stephen Meyer's waveform.

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Meyer_signal_explained.PNG)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2012, 05:24:59 am
Very interesting Tony,

Were you able to produce any gasses with that Stephen Meyer like waveform?

I have studied Stephen's patent a bit but could not really understand what he's doing (how he is splitting the water)....He uses much lower voltages and 3 tubes in a coaxial arrangement???

What interests me is that he said it was much more advanced than Stan's? I wonder if it was more efficient?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 12, 2012, 16:04:19 pm
Hi,
I read there are several people changing the CW to CCW windings of a choke to get opposite voltages. This is wrong, Don said all coils CW.

Did a few test on my VIC. No resonance wfc connected. (see attachments) Scope probes connected to chokes. No inverting settings enabled on scope CH1 or CH2 channels.

Test1:
Wave/Pulse generator device. 1Vpp offset 500mV pulse 50%+ duty cycle input to primary coil. Offset didn't change the primary PULSE AC shape.
I did a test how the choke 2 behaves if it is CCW wound. Well on first resonance frequency it didn't had opposite voltages.
When I adjust it to 2x resonance frequency it goes to opposite voltages.

We see the pulse shape is distorted.
It is possible to make it PULSED again to change frequency, but then resonance is lost at chokes and secondary coil.
How can PULSE SHAPE be cleaned up? Placing resistor parallel over primary?
 
Test2:
PLL Pulse generator (Stan VIC circuit) Voltage amplitude input 12V DC at TIP120.
My coils are now connected what Don has in his data.
All coils are now CW.
First resonance frequency has opposite voltages. Second didn't. So all coils work CW.
Problem I have is the PLL didn't maintained 50%+ duty cycle above 10kHz. So I can not test my circuit as I want. Need approx. 15kHz to get resonance.

Pulse shape is better, but due my PLL it is not 50%+ duty cycle. (core material or WFC lowers resonance frequency)

When I change amplitude my PLL duty cycle changes too, it should not do that! Frequency is voltage independent.


(NOTE. Just wanted to show a few scope shots,
what PULSE, PICKUP and CHOKE signals may look like, to compare with other builders here on the forum.
It could give new ideas and insights how to build the VIC.) ;)


Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2012, 08:42:22 am
Hi Webmug
Strangley with the 3 VIC`s I`v built I did not managed to get opposite voltage waveforms with chokes wound the same direction.
Can give us full details of your VIC and show us a pic if possible.

Hydrogenmask
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2012, 16:02:32 pm
Hi Webmug
Strangley with the 3 VIC`s I`v built I did not managed to get opposite voltage waveforms with chokes wound the same direction.
Can give us full details of your VIC and show us a pic if possible.

Hydrogenmask
Here are my VIC specs, enjoy!
I'll get resonance @14.8kHz, @300Vpp (no, not enough voltage, but we are learning how it might work for next version)

I want a perfect unipolar pulse in the primary coil at Vmin=0; Vmax=12V; 50% duty cycle to fine adjust the secondary, pickup and chokes on the same resonance frequency (max. voltage, min. amps), this is where I am right now.

Keep building and replicating.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2012, 22:20:50 pm
Hi Webmug
Thanks for you specs.

Your vic is very close to the last setup I was testing. 8)

400HH rods instead of bars
primary 650turns 12.7ohms 46mH
secondary 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
choke L1 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
choke L2 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2012, 22:40:56 pm
Hi Webmug
Thanks for you specs.

Your vic is very close to the last setup I was testing. 8)

400HH rods instead of bars
primary 650turns 12.7ohms 46mH
secondary 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
choke L1 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
choke L2 3500turns 90ohms ~ 1.3h
It is important how you pulse the primary coil. It needs unipolar pulse. Make the VIC circuit connections what Dynodon shared. (see my coils)
Then start at low freq lets say 500hz and measure at one choke for resonance by increasing freq. there can be multiple resonance freq.
If you also measure choke 2 to see resonance simultaneous because chokes are almost equal in inductance.
This AC swing can be not as clean as it should due equal choke inductances.
I have no opposite voltages on double resonance freq. When CCW choke was used I had opposite at double freq. so you have to sweep freq. band for resonance.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2012, 09:58:58 am
Hi webmug

thanks for the guide. I noticed that chokes are not exacty the same. Did you do that on perpose?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2012, 11:28:01 am
Hi webmug

thanks for the guide. I noticed that chokes are not exacty the same. Did you do that on perpose?
Check the VIC coil pack readings from Dynodon, that is what my VIC coils are based on.

Why the chokes are not exactly the same? Check the Dynodon readings.
Matching voltage amplitude when WFC is connected on a resonance frequency I think.
(choke 1 self-capacitance is altered when wfc is connected, so voltage at resonance is not equal and opposite as choke 2, so choke 2 self-capacitance should be adjusted)

I have to wait for my 3 inch WFC to be machined and connect it to the VIC coil pack.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2012, 17:00:59 pm
Is not the electricity, not the signals, not the configuration, not the lucky, not the good intent, nor the coincidence will split the water, only the physical principle can. Or you guys go look what meyer was really doing or you wont get it to work, cause without an idea of what you are doing, copying is worthless. Tip go look his citations and referenced by. HE was not really dumb, there are several methods to obtain the result, one better than others as much as complicated.

Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2012, 17:31:25 pm
Is not the electricity, not the signals, not the configuration, not the lucky, not the good intent, nor the coincidence will split the water, only the physical principle can. Or you guys go look what meyer was really doing or you wont get it to work, cause without an idea of what you are doing, copying is worthless. Tip go look his citations and referenced by. HE was not really dumb, there are several methods to obtain the result, one better than others as much as complicated.
Hi sebosfato,

How is your progress to split water SM KISS style?

Yes, SM was not dumb, I agree!  8)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2012, 02:46:45 am
Hello webmug,

I'm working a different approach to try prove the EPP working principle. I'm using yet chokes and the cell, and pulsing with the pll. But the point is to understand what he was doing at molecular level inside the cell, this will preset the parameters needed to design the all thing. I developed a theory of the simplest possible method to accomplish over unity, is all thru the calculations inside the techbrief and any physicist or electronics engineer can understand. To understand a bit better what he was doing you need learn all about a fuel cell, all about electrolysis, all about high frequency and all about electronics. Yet you need to know well chemistry, a bit of engineering design, physics, math and have a great deal of lucky and money. His principle is really KISS but you got to have a bit knowledge to replicate it from nothing but puzzles.   
Than how the vic doubles the frequency, how to restrict the amps and make voltage to take over and do work in a dead short condition. 
He wrote his tech brief knowing that he was going to die and would not finish his work. So in the tech brief he left some info exclusively to let someone later on to understand what he was doing. He was really generous. He left the principle for the chosen one to find, hide in the engineering design principles of operation. He was completely crazy as well, the one, will conclude this when understand it and re-read the tech brief.   
Than his later work is about collision, it was developed to get over a big problem in the simplest design which limits the over unity and size.
I can't give a clue to anyone, but will give you the sure that it will exist soon as technology, and at least i told you all i studied to get closer to it. And tell you that i'm not the one cause i didn't arrived to this only by my own legs.

The big deal is not even to put it to work, but to spread out to the world in a safe manner, so after all you should also be a sociologist to avoid making the world a worst place because of the technology goods.
:-X

br
sebs
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2012, 10:42:52 am
Seb,you say that Stan was leaving clues in the techbrief,i don't think so,look at the '93 colorado movie when he say you can buy his book(the brief) with 20$.So that was in 93 and he was not have lunched the wfc on the market,so the point is :he would not leave clues in a 20$ book that anyone could buy,you said he knowed that he will die and for that publish that book...but what if in the time of lets say 1year before he launches the wfc on the market,someone figures the puzzle from his book,what happens???Firstily I read the techbrief too,and it was so complex and tangeled that blow my head off,because when he explain a process he loose you in another details from another process and not finish what it started to explain...and when he is refering to a FIG,or a given number on the FIG,the fig or numbers arrent there,maybe the brief was hacked,choped off...Then when I read the patents cronologicaly I UNDERSTANT 90% of what he was saying,so the final poin is :he would not sale you his tech for 20$ for anyone to figure it out and replicate.
And i want to ask you something:i was reading your theories about the wfc here on this forum and other when you asked for donations to buy capacitors diodes etc...i think you saw the estate photos and the info that Don provided so my question is where to you see big capacitor connected to wfc and where do you see thick wire chokes on the vic coil...all wire was cooper 29AWG,so i think you figured something and you are close but not quite on the right track.
Good luck on your experiments!!
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2012, 14:03:18 pm
Yes that was my first attempts, I learned a lot from it...I'm glad you went there and looked, thats way to learn. Principally what is resonance, choke... Meyer told us that he could do it in many ways, ss wire or copper... I was trying to check high Q coils and recirculating current and stored energy. Now i have a bit different approach.

Of course he was not going to give it out for 20 bucks but it is right there in front of us, thats why i call him completely crazy. I'm saying that if you have the knowledge of the prior art and you believe, you can find the solution. Of course is almost impossible.. it took me 6 years and lot of help, to arrive there. Is a big puzzle. But its there.

I think he was not worry that someone replicate it, cause he knew it was impossible for him to make this come out to the market at that time would be worst to who replicated.

The secret if i'm really right, is so simple that it can be explained in less than 1 min. I'm not willing to share it now, first i need to prove what i'm saying and do what i need to do to take it to the market, and is not my patent so i can't give out details for now...  However the hho community is being considered, as source of people highly interested in the subject, and i would like to invite soon most of you to work with us if desired.
The reason why i can't share it is that there are sharks ready to replicopyit and say is their merit in understanding SM tech. I tell you is not my merit to understood it, i simply put it together... I could never say well i'm a genius, its all mine. The people working here with me that really deserves the merit, 1° to have wait 50 years to even patent it, 2° to trust me and in a better world.

Wish you luck too
Br
sebs
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 13:06:20 pm
Great, another wannabe who is the only one who has the 'solution'.
This is what hinders research. Egos get in the way.
How many times have we been down this road?
You guys can do what you like, but if I discover a way to make water from fuel I guarantee you guys on this forum will be the first I give full disclosure to - no if's and's or buts!
I don't think I am God's gift to the world, nor am I greedy
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 14:54:53 pm
hear, hear
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 16:15:03 pm
Quote
Great, another wannabe who is the only one who has the 'solution'.

I don't think there is one 'secret' that will make it work.
Steve Meyer said in a radio interview, "It's not just one component, its the whole system that makes it work."

The truth is there is no secret, there is only knowledge (sounds like something Yoda would say!).
The more knowledge we share with each other the closer we will get to a successful replication.
Until then we are all in the dark.

I think it's just as Meyer says it is, but a lot more complex than he explains it.
After all, look at what we are trying to do. Find a resonant frequency of a circuit in which the capacitance of the capacitor changes with frequency, applied voltage, temperature, water type, and water level. Who thinks that is easy to do, I sure don't.

Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 17:29:41 pm
Wise men say, only fools rush in...

I use to believe it could be that easy waterfreak... If i was greedy, wannabe... many names that i was called since i asked the first time for donations... when i was "open source" way of thinking... if i was this i would want it all only for me, and i would die in a couple of weeks... however i learned that there are people with too much power and if i upset them is problem for me and family and this technology wont arrive to you, never. I'm going to play the game, and assure the technology make a benefit to the mankind and not a bigger problem. This i call responsibility. If i believed that this technology would only cause problems i would stay quiet and make a water car only for me. If i was bill gates, i could even try fighting but i'm just a poor guy so i need to dance the music for now. Seriously, if i shared here the "solution" the world would become a sh it. Think of all the consumerism. What pollutes more? Our cars or the consumerism? Think, what if we had an endless power supply?

Today the money you get at your job every month, is calculated for you to consume what they are producing for one month, this way you need to back to work to keep the machine turning. Well i didn't explained well. There is a reason for existing poverty, is useful. Low cost hands to work. But is not the only reason. The minimum salary is such as to limit the power of buying stuff, 1° because the production limits, second because theres no space for so much trash in our world. We are 7billion people if all could buy an iphone, ipad, tv, car, houses.... There would be no more reason to do it. The system thinks that if you know what is poverty, you are not going to want to be poor and thus you become easy to convert in hands to work. Today in the city with no money you die. This makes people wants to show up what they earn, buying stuff to show how they are better than the others... I don't think is a solution to forbid people to buy so much stuff but since people show this classic behavior, we must mind this when dealing with so much power. In other words... This technology must come with a change in mentality otherwise is going to become a danger. This can only be done by centralizing. Listen to stans comments at the new zealand...

Maybe you simply didn't thought about the consequences... Is very easy to think open source when you simply wants that something drops from the heaven at your head... when you start to work exclusively on this for years while people call you crazy, greedy, wannabe, scam... well i'm saying i could drop the info here but is worthless, it could become impossible to me to accomplish what i really want to accomplish which is bigger than the technology itself, bring it to the people in a safe manner. I don't even have a car man, cause i decided when i was 21 that i should expend only on the research, if i'm pure ego tell me than. I'm almost 27 now, and i'm tired and sick but won't stop fighting.

The life only have a meaning if you find something you could die for it.
I was kidnaped the other day, they took my money of the project but i still alive, however i thought they were going to kill me not kidnap, hahhaha.. good luck mine =) i still alive

What kind of man would i be if i go talk with you that discovered this, extract from you the info and than come here and spread to all?

Like i said before, i'm just trying to create the conditions for us to be able to work together as a team, in a big research center, developing the product lines and learning together, i can't think something better than this for now.

My only intention posting here was to make you all think, think think. So you can start looking at it with the eyes of science not the eyes of a copying machine. I almost dropped into this, when meyer pics came out, but some helped me by not sharing their copy designs... this allowed me to learn, learn, learn. Today my PLL is better than ever and keeps improving... This is what i want to do, help you letting you extracting the juice from your brains...

I only have a drop in the ocean, SM left much more in his developments... so i'm saying is still really important find out how he did the other stuff too.

HMS is right, is not one secret, is the system, the secret i mean is the properties that allow you to make such system to do what you want. Is a property of the water at the end and of the electronic components. Meyer says dielectric but its not this exactly at least not in our system that allow the thing to go or at least not only this.

I told you all that is needed in terms of knowledge to understand what it is. I simply think that must be a two way conversation.

You need to ask yourself the right questions... meyer started like faraday, two electrodes and a battery and water to see bubbles...but he went further, he analyzed such a simple stuff with profundity, theorized... Than he started tweaking. The problem is that most if not all, wants to put it to work, without even knowing how basic electrolysis works. At the end is ohms law.   

BR
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 20:42:12 pm
I am agree with you that is dangerous if this tech is out of control,i think in 2ways:1 iff all the people will have that tech, the number of cars on the road will triple or more...we are allready suffocated by so many cars...and 2: if you or anyone else give out the ''secret'' maibe someone starts to manufacture this tech and get all the credit/ and money.You are corect by not saying direct answers regarding this tech,I wont even want direct answers i want to understand and train  my brain and skyls like you say but, i want to know if I/we are on the right track,I mean if all the elecronics and water cell are complete?,or if they are corect?(parts value/connections,wire type/gauge..etc)or have missing circuits that stan intentionately hidden/distroy for not be able to be replicable...thanks for your sharing...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 22:01:30 pm
Sebo, there is truth in what you say. However, this is the same road Stan and many others went down, keeping the responsibility, and knowledge, to themselves, making themselves an even larger target.

The 'anti-free energy' crowd is large, well funded and dead serious. Something this important must be spread out as far as possible, so if, heaven forbid, people do go silent, the research continues even faster.
I would do this just to spite them. If they want to threaten us, then we can do the same to them.
At the first sign of interference I would spread the documents and designs so far apart, they would have to go to every country in the world to suppress it!

This is what they do not want to happen. If one person(s) keep the knowledge to themselves, like Stan, the entire research can be suppressed very easily by threats.
As for waiting for a 'research center', did you hear about the Orion project?
It fell apart because of threats and 'lack of funding'. Tons of these 'research' ideas have started and abruptly ended, due to interference from the same crowd.
If this ever is going to become reality, I believe what Stan said is true - it must be developed by the little guy, in the garage.
Big industry will never ever allow it to come to fruition and is hell-bent on stopping it at any and all costs.
I am not against you, I just think you are heading down that same path that has proven to be dangerous.
Just my thoughts...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 22:49:05 pm
Guys speaking of finding the ''secret'' I think that guy found it(that's hell of a pipe:)) )
   
feature=plcp&context=C44154b0VDvjVQa1PpcFM1ZTU3OI_-WSOOw4KenHgcKgkMK38IU3o=

(look trough all his videos...look also at HI VOLTAGE resonance...and VIC )from what i read there is 30Kv at resonance in the first video''THEWATERENERGY...RESONANCE CAVITY IN ACTION 2..PLASMA ''...that kind of voltage we have to generate to see some bubless:))
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2012, 23:12:49 pm
hi adys,

Is good that you understood my point.

I can tell that for my understanding, stan did it in two ways, before one simple and later one complicated. The complicated is the way all are trying to do, which is related to fracture of the molecule and colliding with electrons... Is a particle accelerator. Thats why i said you should read all references stan gave... I really still don't fully understand it or how to design it, but seems to me that stan hide many things. He was really smart. This complicated method is easier to scale up, if the design parameters are well determined.

I'm not sure if there are parts missing on the later design, but i think so. Stan deliberately lie all the time so is really hard to say for sure. The thing is that to get closer to this manner we should be able to solve a differential equation harmonic oscillator like, to find a approximated frequency as function of voltage, charge, mass, density and distance. Not easy, at the university i talked to many and no one could grasp the idea. The teachers said it would be impossible to determine it for water with enough precision so would be useless. Anyway, with enough knowledge of particle physics we should be able to determine the parameters needed, i still believe.

I talk like this and probably make it seems more simple than really is. The fact is that you need to have a good understanding of what makes the molecule be a stable molecule and so on... Now i'm studying engineering principles of atomic reactors at the university and is making me understand many things for example. For say you can study things that are completely non related and will help you somehow to improve your ability to think and put things together.

There is no easy way to accomplish this, you get to study, go to the library find books and more books to get educated about it. last year i read more than 50 books at the university libraries... 

I think we are all a bit out of the track regarding this complicated method.
The first method KISS he didn't even showed ever any diagram that could really work nor talked about it. he only wrote on the tech brief the principle in a form extremely abusive. About the second he wrote extensively about and in a puzzle manner.

well, i believe the eletronics and the cell are ok, the thing is to find the sweet spot, the problem is that is impossible to find something we don't know what really is, it can be right under the nose and we don't see it.

Probably some switches are missing, hiden parasitic components, hiden functionality of components... 

hope it helps

Hi waterfreak,

i understand your point of view, i use to think just the same, but things happened, time passed and i changed my point of view. Orion project didn't succeed cause they didn't had anything to show. Stan didn't succeeded cause he wanted to patent it and probably as happened to my friend here the pentagon blocked him.

I have a strategy determined for implement this technology in the industries to improve the production efficiencies. This will let me to become "friend" of the anti-free energy guys. Actually we don't call it free energy at all cause there is a considerable cost to make it, of course is possible to achieve complete independence, but is not what we are looking into for now.

For example for 10 barrels of oil they take out of the ground, they spend more than half of it on processing and transportation. So I will make they double the earning and directing the oil for other uses by integrating the technology on their systems. 

in 2009 developed countries suffered from the crisis because there was no possibility to keep increasing the production of energy and oil so their economies stagnated because there was no way to increase in the production.

This tell me that today is great time to present this technology. The world is greedy to grow, and now they understand their limitations.

Our strategy is to let it grow in a safe controlled manner, clean and fair. For this, is not as simple as simply spread this technology. Is a task for the all life, all risks taken. My first concern is trash, second is pollution, third is education... This way we can limit the problems in cyclical manner. There is an urgent need for changing the way people live, regarding the food processing and product they consume and all need to be recycled to 100% in a clean manner and cheap. So one of our main goals is solve the recycling processes. Although might seems we want to control the world, is necessary. And is already being done, however is being done by people who don't give a *** for the future of the planet nor the people, or that simply is not capable of doing so. I still care about this questions and is one of my motivations to have worked on this project for so long and with such seriousness. The money was never important to me, except that its exactly what is needed to accomplish this goals so we are going to make it. As they make loads of money making dirty, we can make even more cleaning it, cause no one wants or know really well how to do it. Thats why the research center i want to create will have dozens of activities to establish new processes too.
 
In near future machines will work for us and our work will be study a new future and live well with fun.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 07:40:52 am
I got something for all to think about. Stan says XL must always be greater than XC, which this will make the LC circuit "Inductive". But at resonance XL=XC, they cancel each other out, so how can we keep it inductive? Well this goes back to one of my earlier discussions where I talked about the coils acting as high pass and low pass filters. In some of Stan's recently found documents, he calls the coils "Frequency Bypass Coils", so this would go along with my theory. So keeping all this in mind, I will explain how to keep the LC circuit "Inductive" while at resonance. Lets say you have a LC circuit and the resonant frequency is 1 kHz. So in order to keep the circuit "Inductive" and get resonance, we would have to pulse the circuit just above the resonant frequency. So lets say we pulse it at 1.2 kHz, since the choke and capacitor act like a low pass filter, the coil will filter the resonant frequency from the higher frequency. So basically the the cutoff frequency will be the resonant frequency and be just as Stan says, "Frequency Bypass Coils".
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 10:11:00 am
Hy Seb,thanks for the reply and info,by the way,about the frequencies you talk about..last night i examine for an hour or so the  original VIC card pictures/the schemes of vic that some guys putt together/and tony pcb parts/...what i came up with:instead of the ne555 timer that everybody uses on the original board was the tlc555 timer which is an improved version on the ne555 and could go in the MHz range(read the datasheet),secoundly I found that the frequency generator is missing from the original board(i'm may be wrong,look for yourselfes)because all the ICs where there like in the skematics but the sn74ls90 IC are missing,i saw instead,the LM741 amplifier ,that might be used instead of 74ls90?and another thing i looked at the gated puse freq gen from the injector setup and has two more ICs differend from the skematic...Please reply,Seb ,Tony..or anyone else!
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 10:28:58 am
Are referring to Stan's VIC card? The 555 on Stan's VIC Card is for the scanning circuit. The 555 with the 7490's is located on the Gate Pulse Frequency Generator, which Stan only using the lower frequency setting of (i.e. 0.5 Hz - 10 Hz). The 4046 on the VIC Card is the IC responsible for generating the high frequency pulses. Hope that helps you out.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 18:04:55 pm
This ic sn74ls90 is a divide counter if i remember correctly... Is used to generate low frequency with more precision or so you can get easy adjustment of the frequency range. The tlc was prefered by stan probably because of the temperature range.. cause if he had to generate high frequency would be better with the pll... My pll gets up to 4Mhz if i want it... there are other IC versions that arrives up to 20MHz however at this frequencies power dissipation at the switches is too big. Stan said he worked low in frequency audio range... cause is all that is needed my best guess.
br
sebs
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 18:07:20 pm
''Are referring to Stan's VIC card?''
yes see attachement 1
''The 555 on Stan's VIC Card is for the scanning circuit''
I know i am reffering to the tlc555 on the variable pulse see attachement 2
''The 555 with the 7490's is located on the Gate Pulse Frequency Generator''
The 555 and 7490 is on the variable pulse freq gen.see att.2,on the gated pulse freq there is no 555 timer see att.3
''The 4046 on the VIC Card is the IC responsible for generating the high frequency pulses''
The freq is coming from gated pulse freq.gen. trough the 4046 and then to cell driver and then to primary coil?(corect me if i am wrong).
Also see att.3 ,the gated pulse gen.scheme in the patent is wrong i think because there is only 5 ICs and on the real board there are 7ICs.

Here is what i came up to from comparing and determine separated circuits on your vic board(see att.4),GMS boards,and original vic card(att. 1):the original vic card contains  PLL  ,scaning ,probably cell driver and pulse indicator i can identify them,and the vic cards are completed by pulse freq gen/gated pulse gen/ etc...located in the GMS box.Tony could(if you want/have time and pleasure) you explain how the circuit boards are working and are interconected, in the patent wo9207861 is not too clear.Please reply!!!
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 21:07:01 pm
Now is uploaded properly
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2012, 23:59:40 pm
Ok check this out and let me know if it clears up everything for ya.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2012, 10:30:56 am
Yes I understand now,on the original VIC board you draw the PLL and scaning almost like I did(you are the master,y draw just from comparison)but the cell driver /pulse indicatorand voltage amplitude,i was not able to identify,whatever ,the ideea is that your vic pcb includes all circuits(pulse gen/gated pulse...)and stans vic has the other two separated in the GMS box,thats was not clear for me,i thought there are all on the same board,thanks verry much for the skemes it makes it clear now(bare with me i am a beginer in this tech,and i maybe ask dum questions,but i strugle to read and understand stans work every day) Thanks again Tony!!!
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2012, 19:29:53 pm
no problem Adys15, glad I could help  :)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 02:02:29 am
You can also look at the LCL configuration as a bandpass filter where the load is in parallel with the capacitor.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 19:37:57 pm
You can also look at the LCL configuration as a bandpass filter where the load is in parallel with the capacitor.
This is difficult stuff!

Do we use the parasitic capacitance (self resonance) of the coils?

I have not a clue where to tune the pulse generator on.
High peak(s) of the bandpass, there are more peaks (three) in the Bode diagram.

Where can I read "Frequency Bypass Coils"?

Thanks!
Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 20:34:51 pm
Yea I think you use the parasitic capacitance of the coils.
Stan's refers to the L1 choke as a "Frequency Bypass Coil" in this document which you can download from my website http://www.globalkast.com/docs/Stan%20Meyer%20Schematics.zip (http://www.globalkast.com/docs/Stan%20Meyer%20Schematics.zip)

Here's an image from the document. Notice what he has written by the L1 coil.

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/S.Meyer%20-%209XA.jpg)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 20:39:10 pm
Where are we supposed to get the 'resistive wire' from?
Is this more evidence that Stan did in fact use SS 304 wire in the vics and not copper as artinvegas hinted at before?
Cheers
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 21:37:51 pm
Tony,
Ok he called the coil "voltage frequency bypass coil" used to meet a desired voltage amplitude during gas production.
Could mean anything. 8)

Did you measured the parasitic capacitance of all the coils, unconnected on air core and/or ferrite core?
If we make use of this self capacitance we can increase this by more wire coating insulation.
as capacitance appears between the wire and insulation, what Stan also explained in the brief.

Do you still believe in your AM theory?
Wondering how it behaves when I test my real setup connected to a wfc.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 22:28:40 pm
Nice pic Tony! Pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Same coils, different names...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 22:29:55 pm
Do you still believe in your AM theory?

Yes! If you pulse the circuit just above the resonant frequency, you should get an AM waveform.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 19, 2012, 23:28:06 pm
Resonant filters

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_8/6.html
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2012, 02:17:21 am
waterfreak,
copper wires is also resistive wire.It has resistence too.It doesn't mean you need stainless wire.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2012, 13:43:14 pm
Thanks for helping to keep us on track.
Perhaps Stan is just trying to throw us off by stating it is resistive wire?...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 24, 2012, 16:10:03 pm
There is much to learn on tesla stuff. I found a book recently where he shows many simple inventions with a great deal of generosity. I found this book because it was cited by another inventor. I personally believe stan uses some of this to accomplish the unipolar pulsing.

good luck
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2012, 04:09:07 am
I'm guessing your talking about the tesla colorado notes book?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2012, 10:18:59 am
This is a video I made 2 days ago when I was running some tests with my single cell, VIC Transformer, and VIC Circuit. My scope was connected between the diode and L1 Choke like Stephen Meyer's shows in his patent and the waveform is pretty much a perfect match as his.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr3viEo2pVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr3viEo2pVI)

I have also added an attachment which is a picture of the signal across the cell.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2012, 18:44:48 pm
I'm guessing your talking about the tesla colorado notes book?

"The inventions research and writing..."


Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2012, 20:23:52 pm
Seb, Tony:


I'm guessing that we've been getting this waveform from various 9ax, 8xa and similar VICs built by this and other groups for some time now.  Now where to? 

My observations show that by adjusting the resistance to ground at the negative choke and plate it appears to only reduce ringing voltages yet has no discernable effect on gas production.  For example, my ringing voltages PTP are 2000v with anything over 80k ohm and can be drawn down to 100v ptp ringing with zero resistance to ground via a 100k pot. 

kb
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 26, 2012, 04:50:48 am
Tony, that is an interesting vid, and as you said it looks just like the waveforms shown on Steve's patent.

Is this the same setup that you have been using?   Is there any gas being produced?

From what I can see there is a high frequency ringing between each pulse....Could be a resonance between parasitic componnets of the coils or even the capacitance of the diode. I wonder how much higher the freq is than the driving freq, and if it's ringing or harmonics showing up?


Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 27, 2012, 17:24:54 pm
Hi,

Need help!

Did someone test the driver circuit properly?

I can't get it to work, no signal at Pin#7 ???
With the resistor values from Dynodon I can not get it to work.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 27, 2012, 19:02:28 pm
Tonywoodside replication PCB

Webmug replication

As we can see the duty cycle to the TIP120 transistor is not 50%, this happens when the transistors in the driver circuit are not properly biased!
Also the pickup from the TIP120 signal has not 50% duty cycle.

The output from the PLL has 50% duty cycle.

I used the variable resistor values to get the same output as Tonywoodside. The values from Dynodon didn't work at all.

Any ideas what resistor values are needed? The current going into the primary coil should be high for the type of wire used (30AWG).
So the TIP120 is biased.
Stan used a 2N2222 (Ic 800 mA) and two 2N3906 (Ic 200 mA) transistors. The 4046 PLL is powered by 12V and pulsing at the resistor input network to the base of the 2N3906 (emitter 12V) etc.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC measurements
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 27, 2012, 13:59:53 pm
Hi,

Finally I measured all my coils and WFC with different types of water in it.
Took me a lot of time to do all the measurements!!!

I hope I see more measurements from other members...

Note: See attachment for details !!!

Br,
Webmug