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Projects by members => Projects by members => Dave => Topic started by: Dave on January 08, 2011, 18:54:24 pm

Title: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 08, 2011, 18:54:24 pm
This vic is very simple and is just to try to better understand how everything works.
 Parts,
-lawton pwm circuit
-modicfied ignition coil, puts out around 1000 volts
-two inductors are primarys or secondarys of two more ignition coils.
- 4 1000volt diode in series just to be safe
 
I'm not really looking to achive resonance with this set up, I would just like to achive high voltage across my cell. I can charge a capacitor to high voltage with this set up, and my cell acks like a capcitor and charges up when its not in water. When i try it in the water i can't get more then 2 to 4 volts across my cell.
 
i'm guessing that the water is simple breaking down at this low voltage and the small amount of current provided is moving through the water making it imposible for my cell to acked like a capacitor. i think i'll try distilled water soon and see if i can get any voltage.On the other hand it could be because the circuit is so far out of resonance; i need to get an lcr meter
I'd like to here some input from you guys, maybe I am missing something important
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 13, 2011, 17:17:30 pm
some results maybe?
Yesterday I changed out the inductors for two that were on the same core, I still couldnt really get any voltage across my cell or so I thought. I then attached the ground probe for my multi meter to the earth ground for my house, and touch the possitive probe to the possitive side of me cell. I got a reading of around 250 volts ac and with a little tuning i got it up to 900volts. I got the same reading on the negative side of the cell. Is this an accurate way to measure the voltage?
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 13, 2011, 20:44:52 pm
Dave,you just figured out how to read and find LC resonance.As you tune frequency you can adjust it to find the highest voltage,and thats LC resonance for your coil/cell set up.
Don
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 13, 2011, 21:24:48 pm
thanks for the conformation! this is exciting stuff.
 
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 02:08:47 am
Gas production!
I changed some of the wiring for the inductors and got voltage to peak well over 1100 volts. Amp draw dropped as well! When the voltage went above 800 gas production started. It was the smallest amount and i can only see it if i look closely but its there! The chokes are a few heneries each, not sure on exact size. This experiment has sort of turned me into more of a believer. Using my first set of inductors i produced less voltage and had double the milliamp draw but zero production. This makes me want to believe that something other then just electrolysis is going on here  ;)   
Both experiments were done in tap water.   
I still dont have my scope working so no wave form to show yet.
I think I need to construct a better cell to test with, mine is 11 inches long and a cell half that size would probably be better for testing
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 03:06:16 am
I didn't check the temp of the water so that could of effected things, i'm sure theres some other varriables to take into consideration  as well.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 22:01:50 pm
Gas production!
I changed some of the wiring for the inductors and got voltage to peak well over 1100 volts. Amp draw dropped as well! When the voltage went above 800 gas production started. It was the smallest amount and i can only see it if i look closely but its there! The chokes are a few heneries each, not sure on exact size. This experiment has sort of turned me into more of a believer. Using my first set of inductors i produced less voltage and had double the milliamp draw but zero production. This makes me want to believe that something other then just electrolysis is going on here  ;)   
Both experiments were done in tap water.   
I still dont have my scope working so no wave form to show yet.
I think I need to construct a better cell to test with, mine is 11 inches long and a cell half that size would probably be better for testing

Way to go, Dave!

Dont cut up that 11 inch tube. Just use a new one. That way you always can fallback on your current succes setup.
What is needed to get you up and running with the scope?

Steve
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 04:00:34 am
thanks Steve,
 
I wont cut down my 11" cell, your right about referring back to it; i've been working on this for some time and this is my first real success! I'm working on designing a few smaller cells based on different theories. They wont be done for a few months because of my schedule.
As of now I'm just waiting for my high voltage probe for the scope to be shipped
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 08:10:27 am
thanks Steve,
 
I wont cut down my 11" cell, your right about referring back to it; i've been working on this for some time and this is my first real success! I'm working on designing a few smaller cells based on different theories. They wont be done for a few months because of my schedule.
As of now I'm just waiting for my high voltage probe for the scope to be shipped
Ok, man.
Lots of succes!

Steve
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 09:58:52 am
Gas production!
I changed some of the wiring for the inductors and got voltage to peak well over 1100 volts. Amp draw dropped as well! When the voltage went above 800 gas production started. It was the smallest amount and i can only see it if i look closely but its there! The chokes are a few heneries each, not sure on exact size. This experiment has sort of turned me into more of a believer. Using my first set of inductors i produced less voltage and had double the milliamp draw but zero production. This makes me want to believe that something other then just electrolysis is going on here  ;)   
Both experiments were done in tap water.   
I still dont have my scope working so no wave form to show yet.
I think I need to construct a better cell to test with, mine is 11 inches long and a cell half that size would probably be better for testing

Hi Dave.
Can you explain how you construct your last set of chokes please. ( what is core and how many turns per choke , wire diametr) Thanks Dave
good luck
andy
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 00:08:52 am
hello Andy
I started out trying to make two inductors out of a microwave oven transformer secondary like steve and Tony did. The first one I made I messed up pretty bad. They weren't even close to the same size haha. I learned from my mistake and made another one with both inductors pretty much equal. After a lot of testing with little results I decided to try the Mot secondary that I had messed up so bad. The difference between the size of the chokes is almost a ratio of 10 to 1, i didnt bother recording the exact value because I was planning on discarding it. I'll check what they are when I get home in a few weeks. 
 
I used the smaller inductor on the possitive side and the larger on the negative. This gave me about 600 volts across my cell.   
 I then connected the inductors as shown on the left side of the picture below; the voltage basicly doubled at resonance and a small stream of gas appeared!
 
I've been thinking about this for about a week now and I want to do many more tests when I have the time.
Please correct me if i'm wrong but this is how i see it. Having the smaller choke on the possitive gives me a good resonant fequency range that I can tune into; that impedance is canacled out. The larger inductor on the negative provided enough impedance to restricted amp flow and  allow voltage to hit the peak that it did.
 
I can get similar results from just using the primary and secondary of a microvave oven transformer, I should of just tried that first haha.
 Sorry for not giving any exact measurements besides voltage, I didn't record them and now I wont be home for about four more weeks; i will post them as soon as i can
 
ps, that picture isn't mine its just and example of how I hooked them up
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 00:38:36 am
I've also made a few inductors from scratch but i didnt get nearly as good results as the simple methode posted above.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 02:04:03 am
Guys,

I too have wrapped quite a few donuts, as experimental chokes, I like 4" toroids, everywhere from 2 henry to 8.   Anyway, you hit on something that I've been observing and working on and that is the choke wiring permutations.  You can shift much of the resonant waveform to the positive or the negative with the sizing of the neg and positive chokes.

for example, take any 110 to 12v or 24 volt transformer and connect it as a choke in the 8XA circuit, primary- one choke, secondary- 2nd choke.  you'll see that by switching the choke inputs and outputs, aiding or bucking waveforms at resonance and and lopesided wierd looking rose flower bulbs grow on the screen.  I find most gas production in this case happens when the smallest wave peak and trough that you can dial to is made into a more perfect smooth tooth by tiny adjustments.  It looks like a jagged capital "A" and turns into a more smooth A and the most gas is produced. 

$.02

kickbackemf

Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 09:04:10 am
Dave and Kick
Thank You for your input and clarification.
Good luck
andy
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 16:40:46 pm
Kickback, thats really intersting. I cant wait to see mine on the scope. Does the wave form shift towards the possitve with a larger choke on the negative? or is it the other way around?
 
In all of stans documents I remember reading that the chokes were similar but he didnt say they were the same. Maybe they could be the same, but the wiper arm suggests they aren't.
 
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 01:33:49 am
Dave,

You've probably answered your question by now with a tranny. i'd have to look again,  anyhoooo   it appears to still be a trade off with volts for amps relative to gas production, you may run some nice high voltages in the kv range and still not make any gas until you slip a few milliamps in the mix, this can be done by first running up your voltage and then lowering your frequency until the tranny gargles some and the nice waveform bulb gets choppy...

getting gas with near zero amps may be possible... i can't do it

btw, I use 15 ppm tds nearly mineral ion free reverse osmosis water to try to prove this phenomenon

watt for watt though, going straight from the variac 8XA full bridge direct to the cell with out chokes produces much more gas 

kb
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 03:38:30 am
kickback,
 
that probably explains my gas production, but i'm not sure. I seem to be maintaining the same amount of gas flow at max voltage and minimum amp draw. I'll check into it as soon as I can.
Thanks for all the input it's very helpful.
 
It seems to me that we are about half way there, "sort of" I dont think Ionizing h20 is difficult; you just need high voltage; which we have. We're all trying to tune into resonance which is where the magic is supposed to happen. At resonance the oxygen atom takes on a stronger charge and rejects its electrons; this is what we're missing.
 
Stan says you need to ask the right question (i think this is an over used phrase but it fits haha)
How can we force the oxygen atom to reject its electrons?
 
As always correct me if i'm wrong are tell me your outlook on the subject.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 05:09:40 am
If you add more electrons to the bath, the oxygen will repel the water bound electron.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 05:19:19 am
sebosfato,
that would be electrolysis, would it not? haha
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 14:43:16 pm
Not exactly, what i mean is to mess around with the net charge on the water. Charge the water to very high negative voltage. This would make the oxygen repel the covalent electron, otherwise if charged positively the hydrogen will become more positive and will attract the covalent electron, therefore switching off the covalent bounding.


Or one or the other. No electrolysis at this point. After that i guess that a voltage could be applied between the plates having low amps.


everything isolated from ground to not allow electrons leak into the isolated water bath.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2011, 00:56:18 am
ohh ok, i think I understand now.
Thanks for the input; I've never thought about it like that. It would be a cool thing to experiment with! 
Do you have any ideas on how to apply high voltage on either the negative or the possitve but not both? I thought I could do something like that by having different inductors on the possitve and the negative but it didn't work out that way.
Maybe it would also be helpful the shift the resonance to whatever side you choose to apply the stronger voltage field
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 07, 2011, 18:44:55 pm
I made two videos today, one is ac voltage the other is dc. I can only get dc voltage if i place a capacitor in series with my tubes on the negative side, I cant get the small gas production i had a few months ago but the voltage is their, i dont understand why but w/e. If i try to put in the isolated ground from stans patents it just grounds everything out and i cant get any voltage, has anyone had any luck with this?
My dad took over my work bench for one of his projects so i guess i'll be using the floor for the rest of break.
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 07, 2011, 20:22:11 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt53_stV7SM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt53_stV7SM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 07, 2011, 20:25:46 pm
ok for some reason when I hit save topic the url wont show up in the post, so if you would like to see the other video just follow the first link and you can see my other videos too
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2011, 02:13:42 am
Dave,
I've watched and seen VICs being built and tried a few myself.  Here's what I'm playing with to try and skin this cat another way.  I take a variac or 24 volt or 12 volt trannny from the wall plug and into two 110/220 volt step ups in series and then to my 8XA donut.  I tried straight off the wall plug at 110 but could not get amps below 1.  With this corny step down/step up circuit I'm sending 100 volts into the system and amps just budges off zero.  I've ordered a 0-1 amp gauge to see what I'm doing clearer.  I'll say more when it comes.
I have a question.  What size is the variable resistor that is to be connected to ground from the negative side of the circuit? 
Thanks for letting me bump in.
kb
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2011, 04:18:31 am
Dave,
I've watched and seen VICs being built and tried a few myself.  Here's what I'm playing with to try and skin this cat another way.  I take a variac or 24 volt or 12 volt trannny from the wall plug and into two 110/220 volt step ups in series and then to my 8XA donut.  I tried straight off the wall plug at 110 but could not get amps below 1.  With this corny step down/step up circuit I'm sending 100 volts into the system and amps just budges off zero.  I've ordered a 0-1 amp gauge to see what I'm doing clearer.  I'll say more when it comes.
I have a question.  What size is the variable resistor that is to be connected to ground from the negative side of the circuit? 
Thanks for letting me bump in.
kb

 
hey kickback, thats sound like an interesting circuit i'll be watching for your updates.
that amp gauge sounds like a great idea, a few ma makes a huge difference, or atleast in my setup.
as for the variable resister, I have know idea. I was playing with a bunch of different resisters today but I dont have any varible ones. I can tell you its going to be different for every setup, i seems like the more voltage you want the bigger the resistance needs to be. I'm not sure what i was using i have to look, but it was the biggest one i had, i tried grounding it in a few different places; i tryed derectly on the negative tube, and before and after the negative inductor. Conecting it before the neg choke worked best if I hooked the circuit up like 8XA circuit, but voltage was still about half as much as not having the ground. As for connecting it to the negative tube I used a huge resister but I can only get around 300volts like that. I need to shop for a huge rariable one. Without the resister it grounds out the circuit and no voltage can be produced. The circuit also grounds out if I ground the water.
 
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2011, 04:42:23 am
 
so i took some notes today and here they are,
 
the circuit resonates at 11.55kz, the transformer primary is 6.5mh, the transformer secondary is 19.4H, the negative inductor is around 22h, the positive inductor is 56.6mh.
 As i messed around with it and increased inductance I realized that I could restrict amps and raise voltage by increasing the negative inductance, the coolest thing about this is that the resonant frequency didn't change much which is pretty strong evidence that the water capacitor resonates with the positive inductor.(just like dynodon said)
 
from my findings i calculated my cell to have a capacitance of 3.35nf but when I calculate it using simple capacitance equations i get 1.8nf. I guess theyre could be a lot of reasons for this difference.
At the cell i measure around 1000 volts and .02 amps

 
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2011, 07:50:51 am
correction to my last post the current was .02 amps not ma haha sorry
 Spring break is over so I'm headed back to school tomorrow. I have the next few weeks to plan my next move. I think I might build a better Vic next and maybe a better pwm, idk we'll see.

more to come this summer!
Title: Re: simple vic for learning purposes
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 29, 2011, 16:46:13 pm
did some tests today, nothing to interesting but I did notice something that seems wrong. The coils/water cap I'm using resonate at around 18 kHz(input)  but at the cell I measure around 6khz? Stan talks about pulse doubling but mine is a third of what I start with. anyone run into this? Or have any suggestions?