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Projects by members => Projects by members => Hydrogenmask => Topic started by: hydrogenmask on February 03, 2008, 16:01:48 pm

Title: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:01:48 pm
So here is my basic setup, it is not so nice to look at, but this is only to see the concept working.
Here below is the alternator which is connected to a driver ac motor (370watt) 2800rpm

As one can see exiting the alternator are 3 brown wires representing each phase. (Y connection). These wires are then connected to the 6pack rectifier which is shown outside behind the alternator (in pic)

The cell consists of six 9inch tall tubes with 2mm gap (all connected in parallel)
Basic dc tests with cell and straight dc voltages are:
5v   straight dc draws 2.6A
12v straight dc draws 8.74A
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:06:51 pm
yeah, you have a nice setup there! you're going to love it!

are you having problems uploading pictures??
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:09:19 pm
.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:13:32 pm
So lets begin with the first simple test : (cell not connected)
Connected a 5volt dc supply on the rotor, this gave me a current of approximately 1amp as you can see above.
So now lets spin the alternator and check with an oscilloscope the phases outputs from the alternator so to see that the alternator is working as it should.
Here below shows 2 phases from 3 on my oscope. (I only showed two because I only have 2 channels on my oscope)

The 3 waveforms are shifted by 120deg as the should. so they seem to be good. The peak voltage is about 15v as you can see. And the frequency of the sinewaves is 416hz.
(alternator is spinning at about 3800rpm).
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:15:50 pm
Now lets see what is the output from the 6pack rectifier
Here it is:

As you can see here this is the output from the 6pack. The amplitude is about 22v peak. Please note that the cell is not yet connected.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 16:17:31 pm
Now lets see what happens when the cell is connected.
Here below I connected the cell and checked across it with the oscope:

Now that the cell is connected the amplitude dropped to about 5volts.
I did not measured the current through the cell yet because I don’t have a meter that reads more than 10amp maximum.
The cell takes 114 seconds to fill 100ml (not bad for only 5 volts on it)

Are these results good or is there something wrong from these initial tests?

Thanks guys
hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 17:33:51 pm
Now lets see what is the output from the 6pack rectifier
Here it is:

As you can see here this is the output from the 6pack. The amplitude is about 22v peak. Please note that the cell is not yet connected.

That seems normal. 22V on the output is ok

br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 17:36:53 pm
Now lets see what happens when the cell is connected.
Here below I connected the cell and checked across it with the oscope:

Now that the cell is connected the amplitude dropped to about 5volts.
I did not measured the current through the cell yet because I don’t have a meter that reads more than 10amp maximum.
The cell takes 114 seconds to fill 100ml (not bad for only 5 volts on it)

Are these results good or is there something wrong from these initial tests?

Thanks guys
hmask


Ok buddy,

The voltage drop is high. If you drop from 22V to 5V, means to me that perhaps your WFC is pulling too much amps?
Can you show us some pics of your wfc?
And go arrange a good ampmeter. You will need it!

Br
Steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 19:55:19 pm
ok, im not sure of what you're even doing here, for one why do you have 4 wires comming from your stator going to the diodes? don't use the center wye. also check that you did hook the diodes like in the schematic.

now you have a dc output. what you need to do next is get rid of the water cell, you need to determain your polarity.

take the 2 leads comming from your rotor, now take the 2 leads comming from your diodes. Connect the leads from the rotor to the leads from your diode, Did you notice anything? if NO then switch the wires and try again.

when you notice a spark when doing this you should note what wires was connected to what when you got this spark, this will be your setup. the rotor can only hook to the stator 1 way, its up to you to find it. you may have to hold the wires together for a short periode of time, "until votage starts to take over".

if you failed with the instructions i have given you above then do it again, but this time hook 12 volt battery to your ROTOR for about 6 seconds, this will train or condition the rotor. when you have your rotor conditioned never hook it up backwards to a battery. Then repeat the steps above.

after you have confirmed that you can get sparks from the alternator setup you should have noted how all the wires go together. when you get this information then you add a mosfet "between the wire comming from the rotor where it is connected to the stator", then you regulate it with the circuit we have provided.

when you get all this connected then hook your fuel cell up.

restart the process, "Amp meters between the Rotor and Stator has been known to kill the process."

now if you have a failure, bump the 12 volt battery to the rotor, "with your setup in tact and your pwm circuit off", hold the battery to for 3 seconds.  remove the battery and power on your circuit, power it up and hope for the best.

the mosfet is touchy as well, there is a certain way, way you can install the mosfet between the stator and rotor, and i forget wich lead to connect it to.

the circuit you're looking at is the ideal, it has not been confirmed that it is the exzact way everything should be connected.

bee looking for your reply on the next test you run.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 03, 2008, 23:28:22 pm
hi stevie and hydro.
the 4th yellow wire is the center. it is not connected. i just used it to see the sinewaves on each phase with the oscilloscope. the cell is ok. I will post some pics as soon as possible. I am going to change the lead wires and check if the voltage drop persists, because I noticed that the leads get warm (they aren`t beefy as they look from the outside). Then I will follow the steps Hydro. but now it is time to go to sleep. gn

hmask

 
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 05, 2008, 23:36:59 pm
hydrogenmask how is your setup comming along? i cant wait to hear from you! if you are having problems then let me know.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2008, 00:01:51 am
no hydro. I am having a very busy week and I had to back up a little with my experimenting :-\. I will keep you informed as soon as I get back into it. By the way I am going to change the driver motor with a bigger and prittyer one. 8)
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 09:34:38 am
Hi all,
ok, I changed the driver motor to 1/2hp one -2900rpm- 8)
changed the lead wires going to the cell with a ticker one.

redone the test with 5volts on the rotor
results:

USING TAP WATER
voltage droped from 22Vpeak (without cell connected) to approx 7Vpeak (with cell connected)

changed the water to REVERSE OSMOSES (containes less contaminants)
voltage droped from 22Vpeak (without cell connected) to approx 9Vpeak (with cell connected)

Do you guys think that the cell is too much for my small car alternator?
As well I noticed that if I higher the voltage more than 6v on the rotor, the driver motor would not have enough torque to speed up the alternator. Is this normal?

Hmask

Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 09:38:52 am
these are some new pics
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 09:42:39 am
the last pic is with 6v on the rotor. production increase to 45sec per 100ml (aprox 9Vpeak on the cell currnet yet to measur)
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 11:47:56 am
Hi HM,

yr gas production looks normal to me.
Voltage drop is still high....
Can you tell me how you measure?
Perhaps you can add a diode to your multimeter prope and see what readings you get?

Lower volts and high ampS is a good thing.......
Less heat in that case.

br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 12:18:23 pm
Hi stevie,
What you see there in the pic is:
Big multimeter measuring the voltage across the rotor
small multimeter measuring the current passing through the rotor
Then I use the oscilloscope to see whats on the output @across the cell (shown in vid)

Where should I hook the diode?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 15:18:24 pm
Can you put a video up on youtube for us?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 15:34:35 pm
I will post one as soon as I make it work in self sustaining mode

hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 16:08:10 pm
when you get it going, you should post the volts across the cell leads not the rotor leads, if we know the amps you use going into the rotor from that stator that would be good to.

when you're self sustaining you're almost there.

the last least important part is to measure the amps pulled by the cell, 15 amps is not bad.

when you're all done with that, you should tune into resonance, assuming you have everything hooked properly and your circuit is producing good with a timer cap labeled 103k, and a spike remover connected to the rotor to help regulation.

the 10k pot is the pot you use to regulate, leave the 47 or 50k pot turned all the way to the proper side at the lower half of the freq.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 16:27:18 pm
i just seen your cell in the video, there's no way that cell is to much for the alternator. that will be a good setup if you get it going...
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 18:18:39 pm
Hi stevie,
What you see there in the pic is:
Big multimeter measuring the voltage across the rotor
small multimeter measuring the current passing through the rotor
Then I use the oscilloscope to see whats on the output @across the cell (shown in vid)

Where should I hook the diode?

please measure on the wfc leads.
Put an ampmeter there and a voltagemeter.
Its best to add on that voltmeter a diode in serie with your meter.

keep on going the good work.
Yr setup looks ok.
As hydrocars said, is the voltage and amps on the rotor not so important, except for not overloading it.

br
steve

Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 22:58:07 pm
Hi guys, I think i got it with the self sustaining
The cell runs beautyfully now,better than ever I`have seen it runnin, and there is little load on the drive motor.
Now the cell is running by itself ! wow, only kinetic energy from the driver motor is needed.
I am going to buy a clamp ampermeter dc/ac to find out what power is consumed from the driver motor.
Here I posted some pics and another video :P
I did not fiddled too much with frequencies. Better production and efficiencies are possible.
By the way now I think I`m getting the waveform. I dont think it is good as yours hydro and stevie but that may be a mosfet issue. I am using an IRF640 for now. Voltage of the squarewave is peaking at about 10v @across the cell, current still to measure.

Hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 23:57:01 pm
im so happy that you got it going! the wave form you're looking for will be square waves with harmonics in the top, it will look like strings. it is best to look at this on 1 channel of your oscilloscope.

Good Work!!!

this is the wave you're looking for. it will look very similar
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 11:20:43 am
Hi HM,

WELL DONE, DUDE!
Welcome to the club of alternator animals!
Now you see why we are happy with the alternator
and why we continue to replicate these results with
a non moving solution.


br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 15:21:22 pm
Thank you guys ;)
Here are some other waveforms I got today
Modulation @ 41khz
look at the harmonics on top they are oscillating at about 1mhz :o

hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 16:25:45 pm
it looks like you're getting ringing. hrmmm, play with the pots more, does your circuit contain diodes like in the lawton pdf? also, do you have a 800 to 1000 ohm and 220 ohm resistor driving the fet? im not sure why you havent already hit harmonics.

is it touchy to the regulation or not? if its so touchy you can hardly even set it then the caps across the rotor is bad or not connected properly. i cant wait to get my fets again and rebuild the circuit, waiting on my fets still.

Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 18:45:29 pm
hi hydro
the circuit is exactly as per the beta version http://ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=140.0
pots are not touchy at all.
I have 2 caps 10,000uf electrolytics on the rotor

What should the harmonics frequency on top be when in resonance?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 18:56:09 pm
The only difference are the 2 cap of 10.000uf...
I use one of 1000 and Hydro does it with 470.
Maybe worth to try a different cap on the rotor?

br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 09, 2008, 22:20:08 pm
i dont even think i've ever seen a 10,000uf cap, where did you get that thing the army???? lol, if thats 10,000uf then thats a cap id like to get my hands on, hrmmm, 450uf discharges very fast so does 1k caps, but when you get to 3 and 4k and on up those things are like batteries or sumin..

i wouldn't think the problem would be in the cap, i don't know.. but i know if i get this harmonics wave and stevie gets it,,, you should be able to also!

Stevie, can you confirm that you did get the squarewave similur to whats in the picture? and did it have harmonics at the top??? thats what i seen...
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 11:11:11 am
Hydro,

i confirm the wibbeling and wobbeling on top of the squarewaves .
There should be some picks of me on this forum that confirms this.

br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 12:35:18 pm
Hi guys, there are harmonics on top. I was not seeing them on top of the square wave because I was modulating to hi @ 41khz.
So I lowered the Modulation to 2khz (the lowest your circuit will go). and wollllaaa. they are now showing up !!

hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 16:23:51 pm
oh yeah! i seen it,,, its nice.. i know the harmonics is hard to catch on cam!!! i tried and couldn't get the picture to take, they where moving to fast.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 16:27:55 pm
so how many Khz was it????
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 18:36:39 pm
Modulation was at about 2khz. dont know exactly the top frequency. Today I made some voltage current measurments for different tube gaps but I will redo them as soon as my ampermeter arrives.


Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2008, 19:02:33 pm
HM,

wel done,made!
How does the bubles look like?
Do you see any difference?

br
steve
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2008, 05:37:41 am
the last pic is with 6v on the rotor. production increase to 45sec per 100ml (aprox 9Vpeak on the cell currnet yet to measur)



I did not see any chokes in your video.  I thought the chokes stopped the electrodes from pre-maturly shorting out...
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2008, 16:03:56 pm
Production seem to be better than staight dc. I have still to measure and get the exact figures.

the last pic is with 6v on the rotor. production increase to 45sec per 100ml (aprox 9Vpeak on the cell currnet yet to measur)



I did not see any chokes in your video.  I thought the chokes stopped the electrodes from pre-maturly shorting out...

the cokes are not needed in this setup. the coils inside the alternator are making a similare effect but in 3 phase sequence. now we must find the optimum freqency to drive it and obtain best production efficiencies.

hm
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 13, 2008, 17:26:44 pm
Are you using a variable speed motor to run your alternator?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 13, 2008, 18:36:11 pm
i am using variable speed switch from a hand driller, so I can vary the speed of the motor.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 14, 2008, 06:19:39 am
i am using variable speed switch from a hand driller, so I can vary the speed of the motor.

Can you elaborate a bit on this. I'm having trouble imagining it.
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2008, 16:01:24 pm
I took apart a broken handdrill wich had a variable speed switch and hooked it to the drivemotor instead ;)
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 29, 2008, 21:43:36 pm
hydrogenmask, Are you using your computer as an O scope. And if so, Where did you get the software and leads. Thats a pretty neat setup.

Thanks
Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2008, 08:28:33 am
Aloha,
Here is my alternator set up, 2 Hp 3450 RPM motor.
Bill
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2008, 13:51:12 pm
hi Spike,
sorry I missed your question. The Oscope is a 40mhz pc based oscilloscope. I bought it from ebay, and comes with the probes.
http://www.darkwire.com.au/html/dso-2090_usb.html

hmask
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2008, 18:32:55 pm
Hmask

That's alright, I found it there myself. It's a nice setup. But the last couple of months I've been to broke to pay attention anyways.

Thanks
Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2008, 06:07:47 am
sorry to change the subject I am new. Just curious about using an ac motor for the alternator. Is this just for bench purposes? How about on the automobile?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2008, 06:55:43 am
shovel52

This is just for bench testing. So that you can run your cell from an alternator.

Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2008, 17:16:32 pm
I am ready to get going on this but I keep thinking about what happens when you get it tuned and are ready to install on the vehicle, seems that you are going to have to start from square one again. are there any low amp dc motors available that you might be able to run from a seperate battery? or are you talking about going to the electronic alternator when it's time to install the cell?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 12, 2008, 20:10:58 pm
shovel52

I plan on just installing another alternator on my car. Two  alternators setup,  let my stock one do what it's so posed to, And another one for my system.

Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 02:01:29 am

 Just thinking out loud here.  The Nascar boys run the alternator off the Driveshaft, NOT the engine.

  On another unrelated forum, a guy in Australia builds Turbos for engines. HE says alternators run off the driveshaft doesn't pull on the engine near as much as engine mounted would ???

  What say ye, Lads ???  Them Nascar boys save every bit of hosspower ??
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 02:33:06 am
Maybe so, but they don't have stop and go traffic.

But if you were using it to power a battery bank, hum

Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 02:52:18 am
Bare with me, doesn't the alternator have to turn at the exact rpm? To run it off of anything but a set voltage or rpm would be difficult wouldn't it ?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 03:05:53 am
shovel52

If you ran it into a battery bank, It wouldn't matter. Because you would be using the battery  or batteries as a buffer. Therefore you could maintain your voltage and amps from the batteries. And maintain the charge with the alternator.

Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 04:00:48 am
Thats interesting,  I sure would like to get some more info. on that cause Id like to get started. Is this something you could explain, or shoot me in that direction? The batteries would have to take on the same charge wouldnt they?  What kind of batteries?
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2008, 05:06:21 am
Shovel52

You can even do you bench tests with batteries. But for a car aplication, I would use yellow top optima's, or something in that line.

Spike
Title: Re: alternator setup
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2008, 02:34:56 am
Now I see the setup here. Bench test with the alternator setup, and then once you get your circuit tuned. etc, you could build a regulator at your working voltage, and drive your alternator off of the drive shaft. cool!