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Electronics => Electronics => Other => Topic started by: oddball on January 26, 2008, 20:49:41 pm

Title: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2008, 20:49:41 pm
I have moved this to here as I realised it was in the wrong place. ;D

I was sitting watching the TV last night and this idea came to me as I said in the posting above to use duplication of some of the components so that you have more than one waveform hitting the cell out of phase with each other.
Also some people seem to think the choke in the negative is not so important.
Anyway here is a doodle I have put together this afternoon, I thought maybe try pulsing the positive instead of the negative all the time so maybe a P-channel FET.
I also had a look at DOG's posting about the inhibiting resistor.
"Electron Inhibiting resistor is simply any resistance that stops the flow to ground (As I understand it). I have used resistance values from 10 Mega Ohms to 1 Ohm. Simply stated, as you increase resistance on the negative side of the tube, the voltage across the tube increases. Of course, this only works when you have the blocking diode and choke on the positive side (driven by a transformer).  "

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/ODDBALL%20PWM%20system1.jpg)

You could have both of the 555 oscillators with the same frequency components and just set one at a harmonic of the other it could be worth an experiment just add a 6 position switch instead of the 3.
I have just guessed at the biasing resistors and used what Lawton had but adapted the set up for P-channel, the problem is to turn a P channel on may take a negative voltage I don't know if just 0V potential will turn it on. :-\
As you can change the mark space ratio on the Lawton 555 set up there should be no problem there.

As to the chokes maybe keep them separate and not bifilar at all. :-\


EDIT
0 Volts will turn on the P channel FET so have ordered some for a play with. http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets/70/352213_DS.pdf

Also when I used to make H-Bridge drivers I always used a 10K resistor to stop a FET from switching to an indeterminate state so have changed the 2 x 820R resistors that Lawton had to 10K, and many of the DATA SHEETS say feed these FET’s direct
From an IC so I have also removed the 220R from the 555 pin 3 to the FET gate.

See H-Bridge motor driver with N & P channel FET's http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/hexfet/images/h-bridge.gif

Maybe switching the supply ON and OFF on the positive side of the cell/capacitor and via 2 separate feeds and oscillators will give that voltage spike on the waveform you are after.

(http://ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=97.0;attach=190;image)

Anyway this afternoon I got my scope out and an old NAND gate oscillator I made for an other project a few years ago.
So hooked it up to the cell to see what it gave me, and here is the waveform.
It is just pulsing the 12v as does the lawton but only 1 oscillator.
(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/waveform1.jpg)

It got me thinking the top part of your square wave has a ripple but it is only a slight ripple maybe a few volts compared to the 13.8 V or what ever you get from you rectified 3 phase.
So that means that this ripple frequency depends of the revs of the alternator and in turn the engine. The only constant thing is the square wave you are creating out of this rectified voltage, and that is different for each cell design am I right?

So this means that the lawton CCT fails because it still pulses the whole voltage during the top of the square wave.
So the idea I have above could be modified so the 2 waves are in sink but applied to each other at different voltages after being switched by separate FET's as I said.
So this means that both waves still need to be in sync to work.

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2008, 23:03:47 pm
Hi oddball,

Nice out of the box thinking.
Are you gonna make a circuit and do some tests with it?
If so, please try to keep a bookkeeping of the resultsish them.

I can tell that Bob Boyce had positive results with multi frequency's.
The pulse that Hydro and I have is derived of the tests with the alternator setup.
This is where Stanley meyer started with. He had positive results and nothing indicates that your path is the right one. Do not understand me wrong here. I really like people thinking out of the box.
Why? Because all normal road are already walkd on.

So, build your setup and let us know. If we can help you, just ask.

Br
steve
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2008, 00:25:30 am
Yes I know what you mean Stevie thanks.

I have been looking over your stuff and can see were you are going with some of it now.
I can see the alternator is a hard thing to beat in terms of it's output but I thought I saw you are trying to make a solid-state version but are not yet showing your ideas.
I think I saw a decade counter but if you are just trying to re-create that wave there must be simpler ways.
However I see your plan is low volts and higher current as well so if you have an AC source with a lot of amps already in the car it is stupid not to use it. :D

However I have a few ideas that I would like to use the cell for besides to run a car so a way to do it from DC but without an alternator and get good gas for low power would be good. ::) 

Anyway both my cars are Suzuki one based on an old SJ413 so I believe the alternators are a favourite for conversion.
MY JEEP HERE (http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/SJ-WillysJeep9.jpg)
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2008, 17:36:35 pm
Here is a variation on the same theme using your 3 phase idea, I think I will give this one a go for fun ;D

I have ordered 4 x 11 amp  P-channel FETS on eBay and have a bag full of high power N-channels so the rest of it is just a few £'s worth, apart from the transformer I suppose you guys have found a source for that or are custom making them.
At a push I could just mess about with 3 standard transformers.
My thoughts were still try something different and see what happens, the idea is to set up harmonics of the 3 frequencies, then just PWM it at the end with an N-channel to make a square wave with a load of harmonics on the top. :-X

If the harmonic on the top of the square wave is from the RPM of the alternator and that is good at 3000 rpm then 3Khz for osc A, 3.5kHz for B and say 4khz for C but there is plenty of room to adjust each one.
I am opting to try with the NOR gate after comparing the Lawton 555 system with it on the scope, in my opinion the Lawton has too big a gap between pulses but it could have the components changed to fix the mark space (well that is how it looked to me).
Also there are 4 gates in each IC so only 2 chips are needed.
Much of the work is probably being done just by the higher current and the ripple may just be a bonus as may be the switching spike at the start of each pulse.
(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/OU%20waveform.jpg)

EDIT This CCT is being modified day to day and this diagram will update at this location!(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/3%20PHASE%20FREQENCY%20SHIFT%20PWM.jpg)
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2008, 22:45:26 pm
Hi oddball,

There are many different theorys about making a 3 phase system. Yours is a good attempt. But not perfect , yet.
The trafo will be very important. Also the way you drive it.....(hint)

Also the volts is stil an issue ( for me).
In theory is 2 volts the best way to go, BUT....you will not get enough amps in with 2 volts!
Unless you start to use chemicals.

Have you ever run tests with a WFC with different volt levels?
If not, please go and try this. Make notes of the volts and amps...
You will see that the resistance will be different, if you step up voltage.

So, what will do that to your theory?
You want amps? then you need volts as well......

Have fun!
Go run the test!

br
Steve

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 00:26:38 am
oddball that circuit is great! get rid of the fet bewteen the transformer and the wfc, it serves no purpus.

Lets compare your circuit to the alternator oddball.

with the alternator you hook a fet between the output secondary and input primary, you do this to regulate the power driving primary side. if you was to use no regulator the alternators output would be to much.

but the alternator is spinning, wich you have replicated with a electronic chip. if you vary the amount of regulation just right DEPENDING ON WHAT FREQ YOU USE you will get HARMONICS.



so to get harmonics, you have to FIND THE RIGHT FREQUENCY, then you have to DRIVE WITH THE PROPER Amplitude. i know this is confusing and i am sorry, it even confuses me. if you still dont understand i will try to go into further detail.

Keep up the good work, thats the most effort i've seen with this circuit so far!
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 00:32:01 am
if you have the alternator spinning, you can take its output and power the alternators rotor(input) with it, THIS IS ONLY TRUE BECAUSE THE ALTERNATOR SPINS.

however, ("you've replicated the Spinning part") with a circuit. ("IF") YOU USE THE PROPER TRANSFORMER, you can hook its ouput to its input to power the primary side of the transformer, but you have to find the ("right transformer") before it will work!
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 11:19:07 am
Thanks guys all good points! :-*

I was just looking at the waveform and thinking how to replicate it, hence the last N-channel to add the pulse and spike. As I said I think the current seems to be your main winning point with this but on all the designs I have seen and heard about they always tend to have a sharp square wave as part of the system so I drew one in. :)

The other thing is I see that a coating of lime scale builds up on the cathode/ negative of the cell walls and this is an insulator so if you do not have a pulsing component you may lose your gas over time.

It is an easy step to take the last N-channel out with a switch if it serves no purpose but for a test set probably not much harder to have it there for a starting point.
In terms of the voltage I bow to your months of testing experience so if this means we need different windings on the transformer for one phase/ frequency so be it.
I may also have some ideas about having higher voltages out of phase with lower voltages.

Like all of us I just want to get results there are too many Ravi's etc keeping things to them selves but apparently doing nothing. :(

On a lighter note I have all the qualifications I need to do this, I have seen the film CHAIN REACTION 4 times and was born the same day and year as  Keanu Reeves so what more do I need DUDE? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 11:55:03 am
i can add this much, the primary windings of the alternator is smaller than the secondary windings, all it is - is a spinning transformer. even though the primary windings are smaller, the output is still stepped up. this is only true because the alternator spins and "the way the rotor magnifies the secondary".

But you have replicated the rotor spinning as i said, so now you get the same output "not using a driver motor to spin the alternator," but using electronics to pulse the transformers instead.

if you use the proper transformer i would not see why it would not be possible to drive the transformers input using the transformers output, "the alternator does it."   even if you fail to replicate the "perpetual like ideal" you can still send 3 phase harmonics to the circuit using a battery like you have been showing in your circuits.


it should be understood that when you drive 1 transformer you can not pulse it with 1 square wave, as i have said before under a oscilloscope using a pwm to pulse only 1 side of a transformer will output a capacitor discharge wave to the cell and not a sine discharge wave.

just so you are not lost, and i cant explain this sorry, but the alternator some way under the oscilloscope is square waves and not sine waves, me and stevie confirmed this. the top of the square waves has 3 phase harmonics. its unbelievable.



Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 12:20:19 pm
Thanks Hydro I will have a think about changing the pulse to a sine wave.

As to the transformers have you got any ideas on where to buy or if making what would be needed.
PM me if you would rather :-X

If not I will try and work it out.
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 12:35:40 pm
well, you don't have to really use a sine wave to drive the transformer, but it would be best. you can use square waves, what i meant is you cant just drive only 1 side of the transformer, you have to drive both sides and this leads to more fets.

i think it would be good to start out at a 1:2 ratio, or atleast 1 to 1 1/2 as silly as it sounds. it would not be good to just jump right in there and try and step the voltage up more than 5 times, the higher the voltage at the output the less the amps, and without amps you cant perform work. the main thing is the output is somewhat greater than the input.

this circuit has never been built for this purpas, its at its baby stages if someone does decide to take on the responsibility of building it.
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 13:29:43 pm
I will give it a go as I have ordered the P-channels now, and can pick up other bits on my way home.

An other problem with the transformer is the frequency not being 50 - 60 hz but 3 kHz so stock iron core transformers are not a good option.
As a test I think I will have to go back to ferrite rings if I can find some nice big ones this time as the last one I wound took ages and was damn fiddly. ::)
Home made ferrite transformer example HERE (http://home.online.no/~jon-mj/making_the_transformer.htm)
A few guys are talking about casting their own core shapes with resin and stuff mixed in.
Anyway lots to play with. :D

Some good info on AC theory HERE (http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/Exper/EXP_4.html)

Like this way to power your alternator if you can not get a motor.
(http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/Exper/55001.jpg)
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 19:21:57 pm
Heeeeee,

There is my bike!!!!!! 8)




Br
Steve
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2008, 19:57:37 pm


so to get harmonics, you have to FIND THE RIGHT FREQUENCY, then you have to DRIVE WITH THE PROPER Amplitude.

Hi Hydro ,
how is the right frequency found? In your previous posts you suggested spining alternator at 3000rpm. On what factors do you think this frequency should be matched to?

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2008, 16:08:21 pm
Hydrogenmask just PM’d me and put me straight on a few points which are important.


Quote
"If an alternator is spinning @3000rpm, then you would be spinning it @3000/60= 50 rotations per second.
If the alternator produces one pulse (a sinewave) per rotation then you will have 50hz sine waves
3 sinewaves shifted by 120deg entering the sixpack rectifier, all @50hz.
exiting the sixpack rectifier, is a dc ripple voltage with peaks @:

0 deg (+ve phase A)
60 deg (-ve phase B)
120 deg (+ve phase C)
180 deg (-ve phase A)
240 deg (+ve phase B)
300 deg (-ve phase C)
360 same as 0

therefore one can say that the ripple frequency is 50hz X 6 peaks = 300hz

correct me if I`m wrong

reg
hmask"

The last bit is because I suggested that one osc could be used to create the ripple frequency only but I got my maths way off  :-[

So this means that iron core transformers are back in the pot for 50Hz if you want to stay 3 phase or just play with one 300 Hz then maybe a ferrite core transformer but even at 300 Hz iron core are ok for audio etc.
http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/ferrite%20info.jpg

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/3%20PHASE%20REC%201.jpg)

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 07, 2008, 10:00:38 am
As we are now looking at 3 phases (TRIPHASIC  ;D)
I thought why not have a play with an other idea, we know that series plate cell systems tend to like a sealed side casing as on the Bob Boyce and ZOOFFER cell style systems.

So I was thinking if we are playing with 3 frequencies why not apply them separately to the water as well.
Plate A could be stainless mesh.
As I am intending to experiment with P-channel FETs I am pulsing the positive and the negative is common.
For N-channel you need to turn things round so the 3 plates will be negatives.

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/TRIPHASIC%20SERIES%20CELL.jpg)

Also when you make these series cells why not just use thin sheet packing foam at the sides of the cell to stop current leakage between plates, it will speed up cell production in that the machining/ routing of slots in the cell casing will not be required.
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 07, 2008, 11:07:51 am
Hi oddball,

its a nice idea that i havent seen before.
As i always say, do something nobody done before and maybe you discover something usefull.

are you going to try this?
Specially 3 small plates with all their own freq to one bigger kathode plate is interesting

br
steve
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 07, 2008, 12:29:32 pm
Yes I will it should be easy to adapt my none series cell to do it, I will just have to change 2 plates and remove 6.

I think it is good to keep trying things and if I get an idea like this I will post it up for anyone to play with if they want to as some people will be faster to test ideas than me.

Here is a simple version not as exciting looking though.

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/TRIPHASIC%20SERIES%20CELL2.jpg)

I was looking at a posting on youtube and someone said "we can try to create centrifugal forces to spin the molecule and rip it apart" it got me thinking about how the phase shifts may be working and if there was a plate configuration that could aid in this.

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 07, 2008, 19:01:48 pm
Centrifugal is like ac. Just like a microwave. So you head the water.

br
steve
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 10:45:54 am
Yes so the centrifugal idea got me to think about causing erratic molecular movement.
Also some people say that the molecule has different components that resonate at different frequencies so if these components are not only resonated but also pulled in different directions maybe we can find a new direction to experiment.

So this morning I thought back to the tube idea that people like so much. I have said to fit the 3 phase tube inside a plastic tube to reduce wasted current leakage from the outer skin of the pipe also the 3 inner conductors can be bonded to it as an insulator.

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/TRIPHASIC%20CELL3.jpg)

If the Hydrogen atom has a different shape and physical weight to the Oxygen atom then they also will have a different point of resonance.
Anyway just kicking some ideas around with you. :-\
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 12:06:43 pm
Hi oddball

these are all good things to investigate.
remove the cells from this one and hook up the one you drawn
See what happens. who knows ! ;)
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 08, 2008, 13:03:41 pm
Well as soon as I have 3 phases or frequencies to do it with I will.
I had an old tester box from work so have made this for it.
I was just going to have a pos and neg O/P but now I think I will go for A, B & C then I have more to play with.
Yes I know it is a bit elaborate for a test set but I think 3 outputs are the way to go with this so I can keep changing the internals until I like what it does. :D

Here is a video I made on the 26/01/08 but it is dark as I made it at night it is using a version of the simple GATE osc I have in my diagrams but I think I can clean up the waveform shape with some work.
 

The scope was connected accross the cell plates after the torroid transformer.

Here is a new video today of the new osc.
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2008, 14:49:04 pm
Yes I will it should be easy to adapt my none series cell to do it, I will just have to change 2 plates and remove 6.

I think it is good to keep trying things and if I get an idea like this I will post it up for anyone to play with if they want to as some people will be faster to test ideas than me.

Here is a simple version not as exciting looking though.

(http://propaholics.wolfchasers.com/uploader/users/oddball/TRIPHASIC%20SERIES%20CELL2.jpg)

I was looking at a posting on youtube and someone said "we can try to create centrifugal forces to spin the molecule and rip it apart" it got me thinking about how the phase shifts may be working and if there was a plate configuration that could aid in this.


I did some tests with series cells at 12 V and I am not impressed with anything over about 3 plates.
I found the best set up to be   - N + N - N + N -  and so on N=  1 single neutral plate all with a spacing of 1.5mm between them so the above cell set up would have to be changed as I do not rate this 8 plate series system for 12 volts.
I will post a video of my cell that pulls 4 A when I get a chance, so it is a parallel cell with neutral plates.
So I only have 1 neutral plate between + & - I suppose this is performing a potential divider function and making 6V cells which seem to produce good gas for less current then a full parallel system.

So it is as you guys say you need decent voltage & current to get gas so if you are determined it is a frequency/ waveform + current that is doing the work then don't bother with a transformer just try a neutral plate. ;)

However I get the idea that the transformer will increase the current and drop the voltage in theory but for people testing with plate set ups a neutral plate is worth a test.
If I add 2 neutral plates between each + & - it will create 3V cells and the voltage seems too low to get good gas production but this will also be because the current will drop much more with 2 neutral plates.
 
With a single neutral plate you are only increasing the dielectric gap to 2 to 3mm from your 1 to 1.5mm minimum gap so current flow is at maximum that will allow bubble flow between the plates.

Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 13, 2008, 21:11:59 pm
where did you hooked up the bifilares ? topsykretts
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 14, 2008, 04:16:50 am
just great, oddball was in the list that hasn't logged into the forum in over 60 days, now there is nothing i can do to bring him back, that just pisses me off... I tried to revive his user name but it was a no go. he was the only user out of the 41 users i deleted that has lifted a finger,  i guess i will have to be more carefull when removing unwilling users, i only hope oddball registers here under the same nick.

the only thing it would mess up if he re-registered is his post count, if thats a problem here i can turn those off.  im sorry oddball i should have emailed you before i removed your account. please re register if you want to continue to contribute.
Title: Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 14, 2008, 05:07:51 am
well, i managed to revive his email address, i did send him an email explaining what had happened.