Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Steve => Topic started by: Steve on July 05, 2010, 23:02:40 pm
Title: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 05, 2010, 23:02:40 pm
New topic on the progress of my generator rebuild. Its mainly about the ignition. It must be adjustable and the waistspark must be deleted.
I bought me today a Velleman kit for electronic ignition and it works great. I will combine that with a hallsensor and bobine. It all wil be powerd by an external powersupply. When it runs, i might switch it back to get the power from the genset. (like 2 amps on 12V)
The gear ratio is 2:1 A small magnet is inserted in the big gearwheel as you can see on the pics.
The hallsensor will arrive tomorrow and then i can finish the rebuild.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 06, 2010, 17:39:55 pm
Looking good my friend.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 12, 2010, 15:19:09 pm
is it running? :D
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 12, 2010, 22:12:09 pm
The engine's ignition is ready. That part is working.. :) I am some days off. When i am back home, i will run the engine and see if the Anton boys where right or bs.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 20:24:49 pm
And on special request of our Cowboy ;) :
The hallsensor i use is: manufacturer: ALLEGRO MICROSYSTEMS type: A1125LUA-T
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 02, 2010, 22:55:51 pm
Ok...My generators ignition is rebuild and working on petrol!
Cowboy: I just used the hallsensor, 1 resistor, 1 CAP and 1 FET and a magnet of course! Nice sparks! Forget all other schematics!
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 02, 2010, 22:58:01 pm
You are not using the Velleman kit at all?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2010, 14:40:15 pm
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2010, 14:43:00 pm
Here is my current proper working ignition schematic. I designed it. You may use it if you want.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 11, 2010, 23:13:17 pm
Here is a selfsustaining powergenerator on HHO. Its not my generator but from the Anton group from Germany. Look and see!
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO: Struggle Struggle Struggle....
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2010, 16:01:42 pm
Man, Nothing goes easy these days. Many of you are waiting for a report that says that my system is selfsustaining. Well, so do I!
I tell you whats going on: I made an ignition system that works fine.......well............ I works great on the dry aka outside of the engine. It sparks nice when a magnet is hitting the Hallsensor.
When i put the sparkplug back in the engine and start it on petrol, the engine starts working. Ok, its not running great yet, but after 3 minutes its all done. The Hallsensor is dead meat. When i try to run on HHO, its done after 3 turns of running....so even more bad. I have killed around 20 hallsensors at this moment :P
Anybody any suggestions why my hallsensors are killed when its mounted on a running engine? On dry, it works as designed and expected.... Pulled out some of my hairs.......
So, NO. Its not running....yet
Btw.... In one of my tests, i smoked my Variac... :'( :'( :'( I was pushing it to the max and it didnt like it much..If anybody wants to donate some bucks, then it would help me here out a lot! http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1328.0.html (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1328.0.html)
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2010, 16:08:23 pm
Sorry to hear about that Steve,
I think the sensors are getting killed by back emf leak or too much current.
add a 330 ohm resistor between 12 volts and pin 1 on the sensor.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2010, 16:28:38 pm
Here is a selfsustaining powergenerator on HHO. Its not my generator but from the Anton group from Germany. Look and see!
Steve
Knowing what I know, this video doesn't prove much....
they could have gasoline mixed in the engine oil, then the engine will run on gasoline fumes.
Sure it could be faked. I'm now active on the german overunity forums where the guys developed their cell model and posted regularly about their progress for years. They are giving out information along with others who seem to have run hho engines self-sustaining. At some point you have to believe something enough for a replication attempt or not, if Steve said he had it running - self sustaining - he could fake it as well, but in the end you have to try it for yourself to know if it's real or not. Unlike the english overunity forums there is a very friendly and helpful attitude in that forum, much like here.
@ Hall sensor problem:
Datasheet says:
Quote
It is strongly recommended that an external bypass capacitor be connected (in close proximity to the Hall element) between the supply and ground of the device to reduce external noise in the application. As is shown in panel B of figure 1, a 0.1 ?F capacitor is typical.
A 330Ohm resistor in series is not needed when using 12V. 50Gauss = 5mT is the maximum allowed magnetic flux, release point is between 5 and 25 G. Is the magnet in that range?
25-50 G => Vout = 0 < 25G => Vout = 12V!
Also note the inverted output. When the magnet is nearby the MOSFET gate will be OFF! When no magnetic field is nearby, the output will be HIGH! So you are powering most of the time, not when the pulse is supposed to happen! you should also use a second resistor from gate to ground in case your mosfet isn't switched with 12V.
Back-EMF killing it could also be the problem, like Electrojolt suspected.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2010, 21:56:46 pm
Thanks Haithar and Jolt.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 14, 2010, 22:00:18 pm
Here is a selfsustaining powergenerator on HHO. Its not my generator but from the Anton group from Germany. Look and see!
Steve
Knowing what I know, this video doesn't prove much....
they could have gasoline mixed in the engine oil, then the engine will run on gasoline fumes.
Sure it could be faked. I'm now active on the german overunity forums where the guys developed their cell model and posted regularly about their progress for years. They are giving out information along with others who seem to have run hho engines self-sustaining. At some point you have to believe something enough for a replication attempt or not, if Steve said he had it running - self sustaining - he could fake it as well, but in the end you have to try it for yourself to know if it's real or not. Unlike the english overunity forums there is a very friendly and helpful attitude in that forum, much like here.
@ Hall sensor problem:
Datasheet says:
Quote
It is strongly recommended that an external bypass capacitor be connected (in close proximity to the Hall element) between the supply and ground of the device to reduce external noise in the application. As is shown in panel B of figure 1, a 0.1 ?F capacitor is typical.
A 330Ohm resistor in series is not needed when using 12V. 50Gauss = 5mT is the maximum allowed magnetic flux, release point is between 5 and 25 G. Is the magnet in that range?
25-50 G => Vout = 0 < 25G => Vout = 12V!
Also note the inverted output. When the magnet is nearby the MOSFET gate will be OFF! When no magnetic field is nearby, the output will be HIGH! So you are powering most of the time, not when the pulse is supposed to happen! you should also use a second resistor from gate to ground in case your mosfet isn't switched with 12V.
Back-EMF killing it could also be the problem, like Electrojolt suspected.
If i claim to have a selfsustaining setup, then you are welcome to visit and see it your selfs... Germany is not far away, Haithar ;) But i cannot claim it, yet..
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2010, 17:56:17 pm
Here is a schematics taken from one of your pdfs about ignition. It's very similar to yours, but as you can see they inverted the hall sensor output with a second transistor.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2010, 18:25:31 pm
Thanks for looking into it...
I just finished version 2000 and i think i got it working now. I added 2 extra FETs in stages, like the picture above. The reason for a third on is that is have a different Hallsensor type.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 15, 2010, 21:32:27 pm
Are you sure the one of my schematics is not inverting? Wouldn't make much sense then
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 16, 2010, 09:19:28 am
Nope...the voltmeter showed a 140Volts...not enough rpm, yet. I was happy to get it finally running. It was hard enough. I changed the intake and outlet valves. They where really set on a not HHO friendly manner....
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2010, 22:01:04 pm
The geet is off the generator, indead. That part is in the waiting chamber. First the little steps. When its all running better, i might add the geet to the system. The geet works better if your goal is to make some synthetic gass.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2010, 10:57:33 am
You'll probably need 8-10lpm with optimal settings to run it well, at least that range is what a user of the other forums determined. 1,5-2lpm/Motor-HP or 3-4lpm/kW.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 20, 2010, 11:03:39 am
You'll probably need 8-10lpm with optimal settings to run it well, at least that range is what a user of the other forums determined. 1,5-2lpm/Motor-HP or 3-4lpm/kW.
I think you are right...
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO ::::: COMPRESSION QUESTIONS
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2010, 10:31:10 am
quote: As it can be seen in Figure 9, hydrogen can tolerate compressions of 15:1 at a 60% lean mixture (.4 phi). Whereas, at a stoichiometric or a chemically correct mixture (CCM), it can only tolerate compression ratios slightly above 8:1.
@all: Does this mean that we have to watch our compression with HHO, which is stoichiometric? After my engine modifications, it has lots of compression....I need to measure that soon!
What do you guys think?
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2010, 10:41:32 am
Here some info who says otherwise:
Hydrogen has lower energy density and burns faster and hotter than gasoline. So compression ratios can be increased and more air can be mixed with the fuel, resulting in cooler running and lower exhaust emission than a comparable petrol/gasoline ICE.
: This is not stociometric gas, like HHO. This is just H and ambient air.....
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 22, 2010, 10:59:09 am
. When we have very high compression pressure the burn speed of any fuel is very quick and you must have the high rpm, so that piston movement is more in step with the burn rate.
wait didn't you use a HHO:air mix when testing? The Anton people didn't change anything at the valves when they first tried it (forum entry of today).
Hi Haithar,
Hier ist die email von Oliver:
Hi Steve,
Super! Dann sind wir nicht mehr so alleine. :)
An dem Motor haben wir so ziemlich alles geaendert. Am wichtigsten war die richtige Art der "Einspritzung" von HHO direkt zum Einlassventil. Ja, an der Ventilsteuerung haben wir auch etwas verstellt, aber eigentlich braucht man ein komplett andere Nockenwelle. Das lohnt sich nur nicht bei dem billigen Motor und geht auch ohne das.
Congrats! oliver
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 23, 2010, 21:01:56 pm
Is there a thread in this forum which sums up the work that has to be done to run a generator on HHO? Next 13 plates will arrive this week, and with good luck i'll be able to produce ~6l/min, which could be enough to idle my 1,7kW generator.
By the way i researched conventional electrolyzers and the modern ones with 70-80% efficiency get >10MMW. So no overunity for us ;)
edit: They calculate the efficiency by comparing the heating value of the created gas with the electrical input, nothing with Faraday's law or something like that.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2010, 09:41:25 am
Is there a thread in this forum which sums up the work that has to be done to run a generator on HHO? Next 13 plates will arrive this week, and with good luck i'll be able to produce ~6l/min, which could be enough to idle my 1,7kW generator.
By the way i researched conventional electrolyzers and the modern ones with 70-80% efficiency get >10MMW. So no overunity for us ;)
edit: They calculate the efficiency by comparing the heating value of the created gas with the electrical input, nothing with Faraday's law or something like that.
Just start with eliminating the waistspark and make adjustable timing. For the next step, the valves...you better give me a call. Then injecting HHO as close as you can to the inlet valve. An air adjustable intake valve. Check yr compression. Thats whats it takes.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 31, 2010, 20:17:18 pm
Update:
I finished my injection on the valve system... Its a thin tube which will be inserted into the air intake.
The tests for tomorrow, if the weather allows it, will be: 1. Injection on the valves, from who is said that it should bring a lot extra. 2. Closed loop system between exhaust and airintake with only HHO injected.
Steve
ps. Here some pics.
As you can see, is my system working under a constant pressure of at least 0.2bar / 2.9PSI till 0.5 bar / 7.26 PSI.
Also my new waterreservoir / first bubler of 316 SS. This was needed because of the many gasleaks i had. The whole system is now gasleak free. (Not easy btw..)
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 31, 2010, 20:19:12 pm
more pics
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 31, 2010, 21:21:19 pm
I'm grateful to see you're still testing around with this stuff... If I had a faster connection I'd check these sites more often, However my connection is low and so is my budget.
I should be doing pretty well this time next year. If so look for some competition. ;D
BTW, I found a Local SS suplier, and I now have a 3 phase Sheer!!! However I have no means to use it for a very long while. I buy SS in 4' x 10' Sheets, Sheer it where I want it. Each sheet cost around $300.00 that's 40 square foot!
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 31, 2010, 23:21:46 pm
I'm grateful to see you're still testing around with this stuff... If I had a faster connection I'd check these sites more often, However my connection is low and so is my budget.
I should be doing pretty well this time next year. If so look for some competition. ;D
BTW, I found a Local SS suplier, and I now have a 3 phase Sheer!!! However I have no means to use it for a very long while. I buy SS in 4' x 10' Sheets, Sheer it where I want it. Each sheet cost around $300.00 that's 40 square foot!
Hi Buddy,
See all my testing as free info for you, my friend. Hope to talk to you soon...
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2010, 14:53:05 pm
Hi Steve well done so far. i am interested in what changes you have done to the valves. Kind Regards Mark Australia
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2010, 17:29:07 pm
Hi Steve well done so far. i am interested in what changes you have done to the valves. Kind Regards Mark Australia
Hi Mark and welcome to ionizationx :)
Basically, its all about setting them less open. My exhaust valve did opened on the intake stroke. It was just a little bit, but totally unwanted with HHO. By setting it a little bit less tight, the valve now just opens only when it supposed to.
The intakevalve is also set less tight. Meaning, it closes earlier then on petrol. The intake valve and your ignition are a couple that must set right. If your ignition is firing too early and your intake is still a bit open, then you get flashbacks. Thats basically what it is.
Hopes it helps.
btw. The engine still runs great on petrol......So, the adjustments are not hugh, but for HHO on my engine absolute needed.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 01, 2010, 17:37:21 pm
Here are the todays test results.
HHO injection on the intake valve doesnt bring more rpms.
Exhaust to intake doesnt bring more rpms. It doesnt matter at all.
EPG to intake does bring more. Probably its the carbons that helps the engine.
Here pics and video's.
I tried to power the cell with the generator. Nothing....just 4 seconds and died.
The good news it that with futher tuning of the components, i got 20V more = more rpms... Thanks also to the epg trick
Steve
Hopfully next week i will have the air ionizer ready for mounting on the generator. I still have the feeling that i have enough HHO power, but not the volume to fill the cylinder well.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 02, 2010, 13:28:08 pm
Really strange. Normally you'd expect even an unmodified engine to run on HHO, not very good but it should run.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 02, 2010, 15:48:43 pm
You need to modify the waste spark at lkeast or you are going to get kaboom with flash backs Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 02, 2010, 22:10:22 pm
You need to modify the waste spark at lkeast or you are going to get kaboom with flash backs Mark
Yes, absolute. Even with a modified ignition, i do make the engine hot on petrol first. Then i switch to HHO. The engine parts fit better when its hot. HHO leaking across valves is not nice.... ;)
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 20:07:20 pm
Hi Steve, I am wondering how your progress is going. You were going to add an ioniser. i was wondering your reason for this. Kind Regards Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 20:38:40 pm
Hi Steve, I am wondering how your progress is going. You were going to add an ioniser. i was wondering your reason for this. Kind Regards Mark
Mark,
Are you a builder? About the ionizer: I have tested HHO and ionized ambient air on my 4 cylinder 600cc yamaha bike. The engine ran on HHO only on a maximum of 3500 rpm with my old platecell. When i ran the engine with the ionizer, rpm went up till like 4250 rpm. Thats the reason. The theory is that ambient air and H mutate to a different gas. NH2, which burns slower then H and O. That way, the piston can react better on the explosion.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 21:33:10 pm
Thanks Steve, did you smell any amonia type smells as the Anton people do in the exhaust. That would support your theory. I have over many years built cells. I was fortunate 3 years ago to travel extensively throught North America and meet up with many cell builders and experimentors. In North America I was employed for a few months testing HHO injection into big and small diesels doing many tests using emmissions equipment and dyno's. I am happy to discuss the results of that with you by email but rather not in a public forum as much of the info is owned by the companies that paid me. I have had little experience in running small engines on HHO but the results the Anton people interested me. The main reasons as i have never seen a cell do better than Faradays. most are at best 85% efficient. So in a closed loop situation given a small ICE is say 25% efficent you would need at least 4 times the efficency of faradays to produce the gas or have a super efficient ICE. I intend to start experimenting myself (I have many cells in my shed) and see if it is possible to get a self runner or possibly a self runner with just a small amount of hydrocarbons. my email is markdansie@bigpond.com skype is markdansie (nsw australia) Kind Regards and many thanks Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 22:06:30 pm
Hi Mark,
You are correct that if you are able to make a selfrunner, you do something very efficient ;) The Anton cell is less efficient then my current drycell btw.. 8) However, i couldnot replicate what they said could be done. I have now 3 years experience with cells and engines. I have my doubts about their claim. Their topics on Stefan's forum are too silence for people having a selfrunner, is it....
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 23:07:28 pm
Steve the range of 2-3l / HP wasn't recommended by the Anton guys, they more or less did what other users of the forum told them, for example 'Walter Hofmann' who has videos up for a few years and is running his generator on hydrogen too. He also posted several photos and many posts about what he did. if you can't get your generator to run on HHO at all (even without self running) there is possibly something wrong with gas or generator? There's a thread on the overunity forums in which someone couldn't get his generator to run on gas either, i'll see if i can find it. (http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=257) or is it running okay now but does not self sustain?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 23:16:14 pm
it is interesting how people derive how much HHO per HP they need. Oten they may idle say a 2hp under no load and use say 4 litres per minute and calculate they only need 2 litres per minute. But if the engine is not under load it might only be using .5 hp. In commercial hydrogen gensets they work out 5 litres per minute per HP of pure hydrogen. Given we have a lot of O2 mixed in and a few other unknowns and therories I would suspect it is around 3 to 4 litres per minute required. My only concern with the Anton people is they seem very reluctant to have a 3rd party validation. I am not sure if what they have achieved is real or not but i have seen a lot of people cheting in the past by adding hydrocarbons in the bubbler and even more sophisticated than that. I am really looking to seeing results with ioniser. Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 07, 2010, 23:32:47 pm
it is interesting how people derive how much HHO per HP they need. Oten they may idle say a 2hp under no load and use say 4 litres per minute and calculate they only need 2 litres per minute. But if the engine is not under load it might only be using .5 hp. In commercial hydrogen gensets they work out 5 litres per minute per HP of pure hydrogen. Given we have a lot of O2 mixed in and a few other unknowns and therories I would suspect it is around 3 to 4 litres per minute required. My only concern with the Anton people is they seem very reluctant to have a 3rd party validation. I am not sure if what they have achieved is real or not but i have seen a lot of people cheting in the past by adding hydrocarbons in the bubbler and even more sophisticated than that. I am really looking to seeing results with ioniser. Mark
they do it empirically. i only quoted one user, who says more or less the same every time and whose statements have until now proven to be true (regarding the electrolyser part).
I heard the Anton guys allowed some forum members who they have been in contact with for several years to watch the generator. Don't know it or them though. I have been active on the forum there for 6 months now and they appear quite philosophic and probably gullible, but they obviously put a lot of work and time into it. One of them is an engineer and knows what he's saying (what i've read so far). They don't appear to be scammers either, so i trust it enough to give it a try myself. My time's running out though, i'll move in march next year and i can get 5,5l - 6l out of my cell at best, my generator is 1,7kW max, probably >4HP motor.
By the way, the 4min video of the self-sustaining setup, they use ~450W to run the generator (1kW max generator as far as i know), which is something like 3l/min. The first 50sec self-sustain video shows 370W of power for electrolysis, apparently enough to run itself.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 00:13:37 am
Steve the range of 2-3l / HP wasn't recommended by the Anton guys, they more or less did what other users of the forum told them, for example 'Walter Hofmann' who has videos up for a few years and is running his generator on hydrogen too. He also posted several photos and many posts about what he did. if you can't get your generator to run on HHO at all (even without self running) there is possibly something wrong with gas or generator? There's a thread on the overunity forums in which someone couldn't get his generator to run on gas either, i'll see if i can find it. (http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=257) or is it running okay now but does not self sustain?
My engine runs well on HHO only, but cannot sustain it self, Haithar...
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 00:25:03 am
Hi hailthar I feel the same as you that they could be geniuine(well I like to believe they are). was that your motor on the video you posted where yo put 10cc of gasoline in it and ran it for 5 minutes? Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 01:37:43 am
One of the Anton group said something about modifing the engine into a way that the explosion and implosion mustnt work against eachother.... So i went reading.
This i found:
"Does Brown's Gas implode ?"
Among the "wonderful" properties of "Brown's Gas" is that when ignited it doesn't explode, it implodes. That is, the reaction product has a smaller volume than the initial gas mixture. Is this true? Is it remarkable? The answers to these two questions are "Not exactly" and "No." Brown's Gas is that you get if you electrolyze water and keep the resulting hydrogen and oxygen mixed together. Let me make two important comments at this point. One is that it would be extremely hazardous to store any large quantity of Brown's Gas, either at atmospheric pressure or in compressed form. A spark, or the presence of any material which catalyzes the hydrogen/oxygen reaction, will cause a devastating explosion. The second comment is that all the energy which comes from burning Brown's Gas was put into it by the electrical energy used to electrolyze the water. In a loose sense, since Brown's Gas could be used as fuel for an engine and, since Brown's Gas is made from water, one could say that one was running a car on water. However, the power driving the car is coming entirely from the electrical input, not from the water. A car "driven" by Brown's Gas would either have to carry a large tank of compressed gas (see my point one) or drag a long power cord behind it. If you had electrical power available you would be much, much better off driving the car with an electric motor than fooling around with a gas generator and a gas powered motor. So does Brown's Gas explode? Yes, of course it does. As it happens, in my foolhardy youth I once filled a polyethylene bag with a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen and lit it from a safe distance. It exploded very satisfactorily and made a very loud boom. Many of NASA's rockets, including the Space Shuttle, burn hydrogen and oxygen. If Brown's Gas always imploded, the rockets would be sucked into the ground. What you may have seen, and I have seen, is some Brown's Gas being put into a cylinder and then being ignited. The piston in the cylinder is sucked in with a thump. However, if the piston was free to move outwards it would fly across the room. Brown's Gas would be great in spud guns. When ignited, Brown's Gas explodes, that is it burns rapidly, generating hot, high pressure gas, in this case, water vapor. Because it is inside a long, narrow, room temperature cylinder the water vapor rapidly condenses into liquid water, heating the cylinder as it does so. Since the water has much less volume than the hot vapor the pressure inside the cylinder drops suddenly, pulling in the piston. The cylinder heats up in the process, the heat energy from the burning Brown's Gas has to go somewhere. If the experiment were to be repeated, for example in a continuously operating engine, the cylinder would get hotter and hotter and eventually the internal pressure would blow it apart. So the answers are: Does Brown's Gas implode? No, Brown's Gas explodes like any other combustible gas mixture. Is this remarkable? No, except that in this case the combustion product, water, readily condenses to a liquid.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 01:42:07 am
Long story short:
When the H and O explode, you will get watervapour back, which has less volume. So, if the piston is too slow after the explosion, it will be slowed down more by decrease of pressure on the re-combination of the H and into vapour.....
Maybe i can adjust the valves even more, like open the exhaust valve as early as possible orso. Or the timing of the piston and the crank...' http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.shtml (http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.shtml)
Anybody suggestions? Need some now, please.......
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 02:09:31 am
Steve what is happening? Isn´t the motor runing with only hho?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 05:31:42 am
the only way i can imagine doing what stan was doing is the full process.. ionized air mixing with fuel gas.. i think stan could * the flame long enough to condese at the state of exiting the cylinder..
stan says it will continue to release thermal energy until balance is met.. so that means it will contiune to realase a expansive effect until balanced.. thermal energy is expanding energy.. you just need to expand the duration of release by retarding the fuel which i realy beleve is the ionized gas.
i would find it quiet interesting to experiment with a stor bought ionizer hooked to intake with fuel gasses being introduced right after the ozone and send right into intake. just as stan was doing.. although i dont know the quantity of ozone stan was creating to run the buggy..
you probably can find one cheaper but im looking at 150-300mg/hour runs from 99- 300 bucks this one has a built in pump!
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 09:13:52 am
Hi Steve, i have grappled with the explode implode terory for many years. I once saw a demonstration of an engine (modified GEO) which was converted to an engine that was best described as a detonation engine rather than an ignition ehgine. I was able to take advantage of the immediate explosion and also with the use of water vappour any excess heat. I feel there is something into what the =Anton people have said and they have a pretty powerfull ignition system. To me if you can capture the explosion then the implosion you could take advantage of both. however the way the valves are timed now and the distance the pistion has to travel this is not possible. The question is at what point does the explosion become the implosion. If you did not want the implosion slowing the piston down i would have the exhaust valve openning almost imediatly after ignition has taken place. However I am only guessing here. Putting the above aside it would be a good experiment to see how much fuel you need to make yours a self runner and compare this with normal consumption under the same load. Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 10:46:11 am
One of the Anton group said something about modifing the engine into a way that the explosion and implosion mustnt work against eachother.... So i went reading.
Don't be confused, they didn't make more changes than ignition timing and waste spark + right air/hho ratio when they first ran it. Also it's unlikely that HHO will explode and then implode, it's the other around. The gas implodes to water very fast, but because of the excess heat the water drops get heated to steam again and explode. steam has about the same volume than hho gas so a third (expandable) gas (air) is needed to put the expansion to work. an ignition degree of 5-8° before TDC (in comparison to the 15-20° with gas(?)) has apparently proven to be the best by the user.
do you get full voltage now with your generator Steve? how much do you consume then?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 10:59:44 am
I dont get full voltage at this moment.....YET I consume now between 1800 and 2000 watts Making lots of HHO... The Genset is 6.5hp and it can produce 2.2kw
I have maild you the email from them that they changed more then they publish..remember?
It seems that a short stroke engine has advantage above long stroke engines. They use a much smaller piston/cylinder/stroke engine as i have. That might be the problem.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 11:12:10 am
Yes but they also said that they didn't change pistons etc. at the beginning of their tests, only later.
Of course there's the option that everythings faked (not a scam), but after all the work put into this.. hm
@ the articles you posted. Well they are not really helpful. The first one explains why there are many better options for welding than hydrogen/oxygen. The second examines the energy contents of hydrogen/oxygen with known facts from chemistry, of course there is no extra energy to be found.
the only "hope" would be unknown effects of hydrogen/oxygen (probably nascent and probably in combination with some carbon molecules).
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 12:01:17 pm
Yes but they also said that they didn't change pistons etc. at the beginning of their tests, only later.
Of course there's the option that everythings faked (not a scam), but after all the work put into this.. hm
@ the articles you posted. Well they are not really helpful. The first one explains why there are many better options for welding than hydrogen/oxygen. The second examines the energy contents of hydrogen/oxygen with known facts from chemistry, of course there is no extra energy to be found.
the only "hope" would be unknown effects of hydrogen/oxygen (probably nascent and probably in combination with some carbon molecules).
When they started, they didnt had a selfrunner. Just after all the mods, they stated to have a selfrunner. So, the question is: What did they exactly modify on the valves and cranktiming?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 12:16:15 pm
Hi Steve and Haithar I have seen a video from the Anton people that is not public that shows it running for nearly 10 minutes and looks very convincing. i want to believe its real but the maths does not add up. The cell is no more efficient than any other I have seen or built myself and every experience i have had or witnessed fell well short of even being close to self running. You need at least 150 watts per litre (normally about 170 watts) per minute and you need a lot more than that to generate 150 watts. 1. I agree that a short stroke engine is better (as per my last email) 2. i am curious Haithar if you did your 10cc of fuel test under full load as well 3. Some hydrocarbons can be consummed from the crankcase fumes Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 12:23:41 pm
@Steve If what they did was real it had nothing to do with their cell. It has everything to do with how they modified the motor. Even if they picked up some carbon from crankcase fumes what they did if real is a breakthrough. The only way with the last video I saw they could fake it was to put some hydrocarbons in the bubbler like a vapour carb (or geet) The real test would be to measure the CO2 and hydrocarbons comming out the exhaust. This is how my associates test. remeber the water bike in NZ. That showed normal levels of CO2 and HC from the exhaust and he was busted. However they run the Anton unit inside..you would not do that for long if it was producing Hc, CO2 and CO. However I am just speculating. I have a few megabytes of university tests with hydrogen and hydroxy where they have injected varing anounts into larger engines. I did a lot of this testing myself. Happy to share but not sure how that would help with these smaller engines Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 16:27:37 pm
Yes but they also said that they didn't change pistons etc. at the beginning of their tests, only later.
Of course there's the option that everythings faked (not a scam), but after all the work put into this.. hm
@ the articles you posted. Well they are not really helpful. The first one explains why there are many better options for welding than hydrogen/oxygen. The second examines the energy contents of hydrogen/oxygen with known facts from chemistry, of course there is no extra energy to be found.
the only "hope" would be unknown effects of hydrogen/oxygen (probably nascent and probably in combination with some carbon molecules).
When they started, they didnt had a selfrunner. Just after all the mods, they stated to have a selfrunner. So, the question is: What did they exactly modify on the valves and cranktiming?
the first 50 second self-run video was done directly after the first run tests with load in april, it was very unstable and had to be adjusted manually to keep it running. then for fun they put the power supply onto the generator and tested, apparently it still run. (that's what i read on the forums afterwards) they did mail to you more modifications and after that most likely the video from july was shot, in which the generator runs very stable and smooth at all times.
150Wmin per liter is certainly manageable as the commercial electrolyser units are using less energy. They stated themselves that when all current is used for electrolysis and the new Anton design uses 2V/cell they have a 1.23/2 = 61,5% efficient setup regarding energy. Steve's cell needs less then 150Wmin per liter if i remember correctly (thread is in this forum).
I didn't do any tests yet as the generator is still used in the next weeks.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 08, 2010, 18:57:12 pm
The most important thing from my current tests with this generator is that his behaviour is EXACT the same as my grasmower from 1 year ago.
So, no surprises, no new things...just same HHO and a little ambient air. Amounts are similar. Now a bigger engine and a bigger wfc. The only thing that bothers me is that my motorbike of 600CC and 4 cylinders made more revvs then my current generator of 200cc with much more HHO.
So, yes. Its something with the engine settings, Mark.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 00:27:24 am
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 01:53:58 am
I stand humbly corected and embarresed. Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 04:34:36 am
me as well steve.. i guess thats why you didnt answer me back with my suggestion lol.. its a shame i havent acknowledged that until now..
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 10:51:49 am
Just take a needle and a metal tube. Put HV on it, but dont let it spark. If you put the needle in the exact middle of the tube, you should notice airflow. Its basically a non moving parts airfan. Sometimes you see a purpuple glow...thats ok, as long as it is not too much.
If you have build that, i ll tell you the rest.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 11:11:29 am
@Mogli,
You as member of the Anton Group. You are reading this topic as well. Is there any info you can share to improve my generator?
Regards Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 12:14:03 pm
Watch this video on modifing a 4 stroke engine to run proper on HHO. They advise to rebuild the engine into a 2 stroke.....
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 21:29:28 pm
Steve have you been able to run the engine on HHO for a long duration, smoothly?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2010, 21:53:32 pm
Watch this video and notice that it doesnt bring anything in my current and also previous setup...
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 10, 2010, 20:22:02 pm
What kind of ratio of HHO/Air/Exhaust did you use?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 10, 2010, 21:16:29 pm
Just tried many settings, Donald. I didnt get any improvement at all....
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 11, 2010, 07:21:20 am
Hi Steve and Donald, when I was working on hydrogen boosting diesel engines we did a lot of exhaust gas measurements. We normally found that Nox stayed the same or slighty increased, CO2 very small reduction but CO was almost eliminated along with hydrocarbons or HC. This was inline with our theory of the hydrogen promoting better combustion. We also found a point which I called the top of the bell curve where we had no further improvement of producing more hydrogen (around 4 to 5% of the total fuel value) as it had reached the maximum burn and then became a very inefficient fuel replacement. (fuel gains dropped off and began to reverse) This is well and good when burning diesel. We also got a similar performance increase when we just injected a little water vapour mainly on power and efficency We also tested injecting in EGR systems etc etc. Now when it comes to recirculating HHO exhaust fumes, appart from a few HC from the crankcase oil, and a little water vapour, there is nothing benificial in recirculating it. This would explain why when burning HHO as opposed to fossil fuels you will see little improvement. With the Anton cell the thing that interests me is the reporting of amonia fumes. This occurs if you are using urea or some other similar compound in the fuel. However in their case I have no way of explaining it as the must be forming a little NH3 somehow. I know you know all of this Steve but I hope it might be of help to you Donald Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2010, 21:40:44 pm
Hi Steve and Donald, when I was working on hydrogen boosting diesel engines we did a lot of exhaust gas measurements. We normally found that Nox stayed the same or slighty increased, CO2 very small reduction but CO was almost eliminated along with hydrocarbons or HC. This was inline with our theory of the hydrogen promoting better combustion. We also found a point which I called the top of the bell curve where we had no further improvement of producing more hydrogen (around 4 to 5% of the total fuel value) as it had reached the maximum burn and then became a very inefficient fuel replacement. (fuel gains dropped off and began to reverse) This is well and good when burning diesel. We also got a similar performance increase when we just injected a little water vapour mainly on power and efficency We also tested injecting in EGR systems etc etc. Now when it comes to recirculating HHO exhaust fumes, appart from a few HC from the crankcase oil, and a little water vapour, there is nothing benificial in recirculating it. This would explain why when burning HHO as opposed to fossil fuels you will see little improvement. With the Anton cell the thing that interests me is the reporting of amonia fumes. This occurs if you are using urea or some other similar compound in the fuel. However in their case I have no way of explaining it as the must be forming a little NH3 somehow. I know you know all of this Steve but I hope it might be of help to you Donald Mark
Interesting stuff Mark. Tell me; did you test for H2 in the exhaust when burning with Diesel or Petrol?
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2010, 22:47:29 pm
@Logic, no we did not test for H2. We did note condensation building up in the exhaust. I was working with diesels at the time only. A lot of the fuel milage increases were due to the H2 cleaning up the engine. You could get the same with water spray injection. In one case w achieved a 13% increase in furl savings over a three month period. When we took the device off we still got 11%. This was decause the engibe was kept clean. if you just ran a cheap gasoline engine on HHO ,unless you treaded the contact surfaces of that engine you would suffer corrosion or hydrogen embrittlement. Kind Regards Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 17, 2010, 12:03:15 pm
Look and have a good time. I like this man!
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2010, 15:31:46 pm
Great video, i always like these things to inspire the immagination. I came away asking the question...what if we created the vacuum in a sperate cylinender to the motor and applied it via valve oppenning and some hosing. .I<E< explode the HHO in a very strong external cyliner (explosion proof) then use that vacuum to suck the piston up? No need to counter the intial expansion. However like all good things you would then miss out on the benefits of the possitive pressure that occurs in the first instance. Mark Good fun Mark
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 07, 2010, 22:15:10 pm
After the last big blow-up, my setup didnt perform anymore as before. I tested the gas and that seems fine. The whole wfc is airtight and no leaks.
The only thing left was to take the engines head of. There was 1 part of the valves that was bend by the forces of flashback. The other thing was that the valves where not closing very well. I ll guess that mr Chinaman is not sanding the valves perfectly into the seat for us.
My advise to you all, who are running engine tests: Sand your valves and seat BEFORE you start testing with HHO!!!!!
Here are pictures of my engine refurbishing project. After mounting all components back on the engine, you could here the valves closing and opening better then ever....Plopping sound.... (yeh, i am weard.....)
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 08, 2010, 20:11:19 pm
Great Job Steve,
now before you assemble it, you should shave the heads so you can get higher compression.
just remove those 2 pins, get a straight block and some sand paper and get sanding.....
I used to do it all the time on Dirt Bikes to get more power.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 08, 2010, 21:29:59 pm
Electrojolt Did you use the Figure "8" pattern, when sanding those heads ??
I have found that the figure "8" pattern will maintain the original flatness of whatever you are sanding.
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 09, 2010, 16:03:04 pm
Electrojolt Did you use the Figure "8" pattern, when sanding those heads ??
I have found that the figure "8" pattern will maintain the original flatness of whatever you are sanding.
No not really, I just place a large piece of sand paper on a large iron flat surface and holding the head on my hand would sand it as I would rotate it. never had a problem with leaks...
but I do agree with you sanding it in figure 8 would be better, but also harder....
another think I used to do was to drill holes on the wall of the piston to make it lighter...
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 09, 2010, 22:24:13 pm
now before you assemble it, you should shave the heads so you can get higher compression.
just remove those 2 pins, get a straight block and some sand paper and get sanding.....
I used to do it all the time on Dirt Bikes to get more power.
Thanks, Jolt.
The head is already back on the engine. I just wanna see if my results are back on track. The engine has already a very good compression and its difficult to pull it on with the cord.
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 17, 2010, 20:55:44 pm
Small update:
New rebuild ionizer was failing on me. I had it hooked up to my engine. It seems to work on the lab, but it didnt had any effect on my single cylinder engine. I had to take it back to my lab. Took me some time to figure out what was wrong. Seems that i was lucky in hitting this system right in the first place........ ??? :o Now i know. ;)
Its now back in its casing and ready for the next test. The engine is rebuild. The ionizer runs as it should be. Now need to find me some time to make the test. 8) 8)
Steve
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 18, 2010, 23:06:30 pm
And sometimes it hits you......... >:(
You all ask yourselfs now: Steve, go tell us......what hit you?
I ll tell you. That sometimes the most simple things are overlooked!!!!! You feel terrificly stupid afterwards.
Me trying to run a 6.5bhp or 4.9kW engine with a HHO system that totally consumes a 1800 till 2kWatts..... Am i crazy here? My engine ran anyway pretty nice. Ok, not fullforce, but pretty nice for sure. But a selfrunning system it never will be, i think.
If i had an engine of 2kW and i could make it run full force, then that would already have been OU, because an Otto engine or ICE is like 30% efficient. In this example it would do a 170% over OU.
What i am trying at my current setup is to get 300% OU = 3 times more energy out then in. (4.9kw/2 = 2,45*100% + 70%) Maybe, i am a little bit optimistic here....
I need a different electric generator!!!! Please donate and help me out here. Just need 400 dollars :) :) :)
Title: Re: 6.5hp generator made ready for HHO
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 15, 2011, 13:18:23 pm
at the link ar esome interesting files: http://core-tex.org/alt_energy/ (http://core-tex.org/alt_energy/)
http://core-tex.org/alt_energy/HHOGenplans.zip (http://core-tex.org/alt_energy/HHOGenplans.zip) in part 3 of that pdf is an interesting section on tuning a ICU engine. it has a section of even what type and rating of sparkplug to use