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Engines On Water => 100% Hydrogen running engines => Topic started by: Steve on April 28, 2010, 18:58:35 pm

Title: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 28, 2010, 18:58:35 pm
Hi,

A couple of Germans claim to run their small generator set on HHO and is selfsustaining.

Go have a look at their video's.

Steve
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2010, 01:40:19 am
Question: are they the ones that make the cells? and do they sell them?

In my opinion if the answer is yes then this is a publicity stunt to sell their cells.

Stevie, you should be able to prove them right or wrong soon.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2010, 09:44:29 am
It's an open source cell and i have no doubt in their intentions as it's the admins of PESWiki and Overunity.com that are creating the hype about it when the researchers said that they don't want it.
It's also not sure if the generator is really self-sustaining.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2010, 11:26:40 am
Its a very basic drycell with big holes for gas output and waterinput.
My estimation of the efficiency of that cell is max 80% accoording to Faraday's law.
My new drycell will be around 100% efficient.

Still looking for some gears like those guys have, Claudio... They are difficult to find.
I choose the same concept of the ignition system as they have, as you know.
The ideas of who we talked about does not include a variable timing system.
I am cutting now everyday  gaskets for the new cell.......I need 100 gaskets. Because they are small in bordersize, its a very difficult job to cut them properly.

Cannot wait to run tests again with my genset with help of the new cell, ionizer and PFC circuit.
Then i will prove if it is possible or not to have a selfsustaining system.


Steve


Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2010, 15:32:16 pm
Hello,
Sorry but what is the format of these video ?
Thank you
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 15:13:37 pm
Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 15:23:39 pm
The video format is .flv
It should work if you append the file extension onto the name.

They don't claim to produce hydrogen with an efficiency of >1, although the ANTON cell is more efficient than available Dry cells. See measurement videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia/videos According to the forum entries they were just as surprised as anyone else that the motor ran in a closed loop. Btw i have all the parts they used in that video (except the generator) and if i finally have some time i'll try to check how much of "HHO" gas i need to run something like this.

btw Steve can you answer my PM? I have lost the account information of my main account.

Quote
If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?
The units of this literally don't make sense.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 15:35:03 pm
Thanks for the clarification, I guess I read it that they could keep it going on a truly self sustaining basis, which led to the observation about creating more hydrogen energy than they were consuming in making the HHO to begin with.

I have seen this done many times on a short term basis, so by the title it appeared they were doing something extraordinary.

It will be extraordinary when we can put in 10 KW of electricity to make 1 Kg of H2.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 19:33:25 pm
Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 19:35:08 pm
The video format is .flv
It should work if you append the file extension onto the name.

They don't claim to produce hydrogen with an efficiency of >1, although the ANTON cell is more efficient than available Dry cells. See measurement videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia/videos According to the forum entries they were just as surprised as anyone else that the motor ran in a closed loop. Btw i have all the parts they used in that video (except the generator) and if i finally have some time i'll try to check how much of "HHO" gas i need to run something like this.

btw Steve can you answer my PM? I have lost the account information of my main account.

Quote
If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?
The units of this literally don't make sense.

Dear Haithar,

I have answerd yr pm today.

Steve
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 20:29:53 pm
The video format is .flv
It should work if you append the file extension onto the name.

They don't claim to produce hydrogen with an efficiency of >1, although the ANTON cell is more efficient than available Dry cells. See measurement videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia/videos According to the forum entries they were just as surprised as anyone else that the motor ran in a closed loop. Btw i have all the parts they used in that video (except the generator) and if i finally have some time i'll try to check how much of "HHO" gas i need to run something like this.

btw Steve can you answer my PM? I have lost the account information of my main account.

Quote
If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?
The units of this literally don't make sense.

Dear Haithar,

I have answerd yr pm today.

Steve

thanks, i got my account back.

Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve
I'm really not sure since they have been running a rather large block heat and power plant with a few combined dry cells:
Not saying that is special energy-wise, but it shows that you don't need unbelievably huge amounts of gas to run motors.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 21:43:05 pm
I am sure it was an experience that generated "real world" data and knowledge, which helps greatly in assessing other claims like the Germans. Thank you for the update.

My earlier comment was that if we could produce 1 Kg of H2 at an energy cost of under 10 kWh, that Kilogram of hydrogen will deliver enough btus of energy to make hydrogen a reality as a source of fuel.

I think we all agree that 10 kWh/Kg H2 would change all of our worlds.

By the way, the HEC engines are pushing 43-46% efficiency running on pure H2.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 21:53:58 pm
I am sure it was an experience that generated "real world" data and knowledge, which helps greatly in assessing other claims like the Germans. Thank you for the update.

My earlier comment was that if we could produce 1 Kg of H2 at an energy cost of under 10 kWh, that Kilogram of hydrogen will deliver enough btus of energy to make hydrogen a reality as a source of fuel.

I think we all agree that 10 kWh/Kg H2 would change all of our worlds.

By the way, the HEC engines are pushing 43-46% efficiency running on pure H2.

Prowlingbear,

Why you ask this to specifically?
I never seen anybody talking in kg H2 as a way of measuring...
Whats your background?

Engines doing a 43% efficiency is a good result!
Whats that for a kind of engine? Are you involved in that project?

Steve
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 21:59:53 pm
Prowling,

We are here using hho as fuel. Untill somebody is seperating the oxygen from the hydrogen, it is not possible to compress the hho into a liquid. It simply explodes under pressure.
However, H2 can be compressed savely. Then kg / H2 is applicable.

Never try to compress HHO from a drycell or Meyer type of cell!!!

Steve
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 22:38:23 pm
Steve,

Thank you for the heads up on compressing HHO, we are focused on getting out the H2 and using it immediately as fuel, hence our interest in separating out the oxygen so that we can burn just H2.

The reason for the quantification of H2 in Kg, is because it converts easily over to GGE measurements against diesel and gasoline and natural gas and makes comparisons effective. In addition, it is easy to compare the relative btu values of each fuel in understanding what makes sense as alternatives to what we use now.

I am in Green-tech but come out of a product integration background on a macro level rather than on the CTO level. We have made much progress in the HHO generation area and I am now looking ahead to see how we can separate the O from the Hs:)

We are also very interested in transportation and you guys across the pond are definitely ahead of the game on the macro level.

If you are using the HHO as fuel, is it pure HHO without any other hydrocarbons?
Or are you supplementing existing systems with HHO injection?
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 23:24:19 pm
Steve,

Yes I am working with the Hydrogen engine company on ground based power applications and the hydrogen fuel requirements are much higher than 15 SLM.

We are looking at 600 to 1000 liter production requirements on site and on demand.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 23:47:19 pm
Steve,

Thank you for the heads up on compressing HHO, we are focused on getting out the H2 and using it immediately as fuel, hence our interest in separating out the oxygen so that we can burn just H2.

The reason for the quantification of H2 in Kg, is because it converts easily over to GGE measurements against diesel and gasoline and natural gas and makes comparisons effective. In addition, it is easy to compare the relative btu values of each fuel in understanding what makes sense as alternatives to what we use now.

I am in Green-tech but come out of a product integration background on a macro level rather than on the CTO level. We have made much progress in the HHO generation area and I am now looking ahead to see how we can separate the O from the Hs:)

We are also very interested in transportation and you guys across the pond are definitely ahead of the game on the macro level.

If you are using the HHO as fuel, is it pure HHO without any other hydrocarbons?
Or are you supplementing existing systems with HHO injection?

Thanks for yr clarification on your background, so to speak, PB.
The whole idea of using water as a fuel is the get ride of the carbon part.
However, pure hydrogen or hho gas will get into the metal of yr engine.
Its better to add some oildrops in the running proces.
Some use alcohol vapour to get some carbons in the proces.

For me, i have ran my two engines, who i had available for this hobby, pure and only on HHO and ambient air.
My add-on to improve the burnrate of the hho/ambient air mix  and to get a much better efficiency was an ambient air modifier.
It got me up to 40% better engine performance when it ran on HHO only.




Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 23:52:47 pm
If there is no noteworthy effect when combusting HHO in an internal combustion engine, why use it? And if it is used for energy storage purposes, why not use a fuel cell?
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 28, 2012, 01:21:56 am
Haithar,

First, there is a benefit of mixing HHO into a carbon based fuel stream, particularly diesel fuel, as you can get real world 15-24% fuel economy increases diesel fuel savings, and you cut significantly into the emissions and particulates coming out of the exhaust, and extend engine life. The ROI is often less than a year and the savings can run into serious money.

The storage medium for hydrogen is the water, if you can make the hydrogen very cost effectively, make it onsite, and make it on demand fast enough to meet demand, your storage issue goes away.

The problem with fuel cells is their CAP EX is too high, their run time is too short, and if the hydrogen is matched to a long running quality hydrogen engine and genset, the comps are going to push the fuel cells to very narrow specialty applications.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 28, 2012, 13:30:47 pm
Steve,

Thank you for the heads up on compressing HHO, we are focused on getting out the H2 and using it immediately as fuel, hence our interest in separating out the oxygen so that we can burn just H2.

Didn't Meyer in his patents seperate the H and O with static electric fields placed on membrames? I do not recall exactly which patent it was but i have read it in one of them ....
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 28, 2012, 16:27:11 pm
Sharky,

That works okay on low volume HHO production. But when you get north of 100 SLM the in cell membranes are overwhelmed and you get lots of production but it is HHO.

Thank you for the recall of the design and membrane in cell design.

Bear
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 30, 2012, 16:41:42 pm
Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve

Even if they had a carbon-based but transparent water-like liquid in their bubblers, that whole process would still be pretty efficient, wouldn't it? How much of this liquid could get into the engine per minute? Probably not much.
Title: Re: Germans claim a selfsustaining generator with drycell
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 30, 2012, 18:56:20 pm
Steve,

How did your last build go with regard to getting to self sustaining?

The German video appeared to be straight up electrolysis so it would not be likely that they could get to a self sustaining state. If best case real world is 50KW/H2 Kg, and Faraday was 33KW/H2 Kg, and 1 Kg of H2 has 12-19 KW of power value in it, they would appear to be a good ways away from anything close to self sustaining?

No, i was not able to run a selfsustaining system with hho and drycells and ionizers.
That is simply not possible. An engine is like 30% efficient. My drycells are around 120% faraday efficient. Much more then the anton cells, btw.

The germans have been tricking us all.
And i think i know how.
To be honest, their result is not bad. However, theY didnt tell you what was in the bublers.....

Steve

Even if they had a carbon-based but transparent water-like liquid in their bubblers, that whole process would still be pretty efficient, wouldn't it? How much of this liquid could get into the engine per minute? Probably not much.

Yes, Haithar. I totally agree with you.  :)


Steve