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Projects by members => Projects by members => Haithar => Topic started by: haithar on March 30, 2010, 17:27:45 pm

Title: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 30, 2010, 17:27:45 pm
Hi there,
now as i have a much better knowledge of electronics, semiconductor parts, circuits and calculating everything i have setup something again.
Made a tube ready (see pic) and built the vic circuit.

Unfortunately there is no superelevation of voltage at coils or cap.
The coil is around 0,2m long, bifilar wound with ferrite core (i believe). Gap of the cell is around 0,001m.
Diodes are 1N4007 (1000V,1A). One freewheel diode and the blocking diode.

Problems as of now:
- My selfmade signal generator using a mikrocontroller isn't stable, frequency is switching
- No transformer yet, the only one's i have is 12 V : 230 V
- don't know the capacity of the cell. Ohmic resistance is there, but also not measurable because it's not linear (draws 0,5Amps at 3,9V and 1 Amp at 5V)

Next steps:
- I'll connect the cap to 230V / 50Hz plug-AC and measure the current and then calculate the capacitancereactance of my cell at 50Hz
- I will use the transformer i have, the dude on hyiq.org did the same and it seemed to work for him.
- Also, I'll have to build another signal generator.

I'll be posting regularly
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 02, 2010, 19:38:04 pm
alright.
frequency of the generator is stabilized a bit,
i have the transformer (12V:230V), which strangely enough creates sine-waves from square pulses. 12V in around 150V peak to peak out.
measuring that with the oscilloscope is fine, but as soon as the diode get's in it becomes 75V direct voltage. probably the diode is acting as a capacitor, don't know. frequency was 220kHz.
when connecting the tube cell there is no voltage at the cell and no voltage at the transformer, i guess too much power needed to have the voltage stable.
what bugs me most is that with the diode i cannot measure any pulses or half-waves even.

pictures to come :)
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 02, 2010, 20:44:30 pm
alright.
frequency of the generator is stabilized a bit,
i have the transformer (12V:230V), which strangely enough creates sine-waves from square pulses. 12V in around 150V peak to peak out.
measuring that with the oscilloscope is fine, but as soon as the diode get's in it becomes 75V direct voltage. probably the diode is acting as a capacitor, don't know. frequency was 220kHz.
when connecting the tube cell there is no voltage at the cell and no voltage at the transformer, i guess too much power needed to have the voltage stable.
what bugs me most is that with the diode i cannot measure any pulses or half-waves even.

pictures to come :)

Looking forward to your progres and pics!   ;)
My 2 cents:
You have a deadshort condition when you hook up the wfc to yr trafo....
When you measure the cells resistance, or when you do dc tests and you measure amps and voltage, you will know resistance.
Something like 1 ohm for a parallelcell or even less......
However...if you go from a 50% duty towards a 5% duty cycle, you might be able to pulse very short bursts and you prevend the current from going thru the cell.....


Steve



Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 02, 2010, 20:56:28 pm
My idea was similar. The resistance of the cell is very low (maybe even 1ohm as you said). Therefore at 75V dc it would need 75 Amps direct current. The transformer obviously isn't able to deliver 75A and thus the voltage breaks down to zero, similar to a dead short like you said, even if it isn't a real dead short.
I'll try the smaller pulses, duty cycle was around 40% at the moment.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 02, 2010, 21:41:22 pm
Pics:
(http://j.imagehost.org/t/0566/IMG_6969.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0566/IMG_6969) and (http://j.imagehost.org/t/0622/IMG_6967.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0622/IMG_6967)
Container with tube in it. Didn't have a better one or money for a better one. I put calcium in the water for conditioning (white insulating layer). Will probably wrap the inner tube with thin plastic. Brown muck is generated slowly, but nearly nothing anymore.

(http://j.imagehost.org/t/0039/IMG_6971.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0039/IMG_6971) (http://j.imagehost.org/t/0633/IMG_6972.jpg) (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0633/IMG_6972)
PWM Generator, Multimeters, Bifilar coil, Transformer.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 03, 2010, 14:59:34 pm
Took some measurements today.
Coils are both 1,2mH, the cap without water is 4,2mF (!).
That means it built a resonance circuit for 50Hz without water, unfortunately with water the capacitance is > 300mF and the resonant frequency shrinks to 5Hz.
Damnit i never have thought that the capacitance can be too big. I hope the LCR-meter used the wrong method and calculated a much larger value :/

does anyone have a good way of measuring capacitance? my plan to use 230V grid voltage wouldn't work out that well, if the cap is really 4,2mF then it would draw > 250Amps at 230V. Not a good idea.


Update: had the great idea to use my 230V:12V transformer and measure reactance in series with 12 ohm resistor on the 12V side. Didn't work out as my cable on the 230V side overheated and broke in a second. Anyway i then took apart the tubes and dried them. The white coating already started to build nicely, but on the inner side of the outer tube.
I put everything back together dry again and this time my RLC meter showed a more stable value (no water) of 270pF or 0,27nF which is much more likely.
If insulated and filled with water the capacitance should be around 21nF +- 2nF and the resonant frequency in the range of 22kHz.

Update 2: Found out that RLC meters use direct current and measure how long the cap needs to be charged fully. Not the best method and it only works if it's absolutely sure that there is no charge left on the cap. So i think the 270pF is probably the more accurate value.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 03, 2010, 15:31:42 pm
I've read a lot of posts where people can't get the right capacitance, one thing i remember reading is that some instruments will measure the impedance and not the capacitance, and then people start talking about how the cell is a resistor as well as a capacitor and so on...

Your project is coming along good, I hope you find some results soon :)
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 03, 2010, 16:26:22 pm
Some say you have to calculated the surface of the tube...

Steve
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 03, 2010, 18:43:14 pm
I don't think the mathematical approach works here, too many imperfections.

Anyway, i got ~130V out of the transformer and probably 50V to the cap. When i played around with duty cycle and frequencies i noticed a point where very few little bubbles seemed to come out of the tube, amp meter showed 0,1mA like always on the hv side, but i guess i must have been mistaken. couldn't find the point again later.
i wrapped the coil in saran wrap btw, 12V dc / <0,1A current.
next step is to find out how the bifilar behaves and then how it works together with the cap. i'll also change the frequency generator to 100Hz steps, i'll have a range from 0 - 100kHz then. the 1n4007 gets hot when there's a current >1A at the primary, will need to change it too.
the good thing is with the saran wrap the voltage on the secondary does not break down.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 00:48:14 am
Is your transformer designed for 50-60Hz?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 00:56:07 am
yes it's a regular grid 230V : 12V transformer. I know the losses at high frequency will be higher but i don't have a better one.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 02:14:10 am
It may help to use higher frequencies in tune with 50-60Hz such as 120Hz, 240Hz, and so on. You just double the number and you will have the next octave. If your trying to resonate the secondary coil with a diode in the mix, there is a way to test in such a way to simulate working parameters and not needing a cell in the circuit. Try using an Avramenko Plug attached to one leg of the secondary leaving the opposite end open or unconnected. Connect a neon or higher voltage light bulb between the diodes of the Avramenko plug and adjust the primary frequency.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 15:34:35 pm
yeah i'm actually in the kHz range, my frequency generator is set to 0..200kHz in 500Hz steps.
gave the tank circuit another look, unfortunately my supply voltage doesn't double. will have to see what the problem is.
the transformer is really strange, instead of giving out round squares when fed with 50% square waves (picture on tech brief page 81) it's creating the sinus wave, which i can't use really. and the voltage isn't stepped up by factor 19 - didn't really expect it with squares - but only with the factor 2/3 if that at all.

when not using the transformer at all i can see the discharge pattern of the cap nicely, like on jnaudins page.
won't have time till tuesday or wednesday, will make an update then.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 16:25:49 pm
The secondary will always give you a sine wave type signal no matter how the primary is excited. That is why you need at least one diode on the secondary side. Ultimately, you need not worry about voltage and the use of transformers once you understand how the chokes work. I have attached a document that may shed some light on the subject.

Happy Easter!
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2010, 18:17:36 pm
thank you Bubz.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2010, 03:16:54 am
Hi Bubz,

I read the charge pump pdf.  It's funny there's no mention of Nicola Tesla in there.  He did a lot of ground breaking work in that area.  It's amazing what he was able to accomplish considering the materials he had at hand.

Regards,
Andy
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2010, 15:23:34 pm
Okay i had two hours time today.

The dc resonant charging circuit from richieburnett didn't work the way it's shown there.
the cap and diode have to be in parallel with the switch (mosfet). after i had figured that out i got 50V voltage pulses from a 12V dc without the transformer and with one coil (not bifilar).
next step was to insert the transformer (12V:230), i had 800V peak pulses without anything connected to the high side of the transformer, when connecting everything it was around between 200V and 500V at the cell (measured with oscilloscope, you could clearly see the fast cap charging and slow discharge pattern), changing with use of components (bifilars, single coil, frequency, primary voltage).
resonance wasn't hard to find, the voltage at the cap was double the voltage at one coil (when using bifilar). but i think the resonant charging part didn't work correct with the transformer in the circuit.
Anyway, i saw bubbles! A steady stream of very tiny bubbles coming out, was euphoric of course because i had the oscilloscope showing the voltage peaks of several hundred volts. Unfortunately my (non rms) amp meter displayed a current of 0,1Amps, which would be enough for the hydrogen created there, which makes me think it's normal electrolysis.
On the other hand one tube was wrapped in saran wrap and the current COULD have been the displacement current. Don't know as of now what it was.

Next steps are:
- altering the frequency generator yet again (0 to 100kHz in 100Hz steps)
- prove resonant charging with transformer in place (will probably substitute the watercap with a regular one first)

I'll keep you updated :)

edit: Oh i see that Steve has made a thread with a similar resonant charging circuit, so he has encountered the problem too.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2010, 17:42:02 pm
Today i tried the bifilar coil alone with the diode and without the cap. At the right connection pattern the coil created 85V spikes from 12V at 300kHz (frequency can be significantly lower), 50% duty cycle, current 0,1A. Other connection draws way more amps and not this high voltage spikes. Incredible.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2010, 17:52:15 pm
good news, keep at it!
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2010, 21:10:22 pm
Okay i had two hours time today.

The dc resonant charging circuit from richieburnett didn't work the way it's shown there.
the cap and diode have to be in parallel with the switch (mosfet). after i had figured that out i got 50V voltage pulses from a 12V dc without the transformer and with one coil (not bifilar).
next step was to insert the transformer (12V:230), i had 800V peak pulses without anything connected to the high side of the transformer, when connecting everything it was around between 200V and 500V at the cell (measured with oscilloscope, you could clearly see the fast cap charging and slow discharge pattern), changing with use of components (bifilars, single coil, frequency, primary voltage).
resonance wasn't hard to find, the voltage at the cap was double the voltage at one coil (when using bifilar). but i think the resonant charging part didn't work correct with the transformer in the circuit.
Anyway, i saw bubbles! A steady stream of very tiny bubbles coming out, was euphoric of course because i had the oscilloscope showing the voltage peaks of several hundred volts. Unfortunately my (non rms) amp meter displayed a current of 0,1Amps, which would be enough for the hydrogen created there, which makes me think it's normal electrolysis.
On the other hand one tube was wrapped in saran wrap and the current COULD have been the displacement current. Don't know as of now what it was.

Next steps are:
- altering the frequency generator yet again (0 to 100kHz in 100Hz steps)
- prove resonant charging with transformer in place (will probably substitute the watercap with a regular one first)

I'll keep you updated :)

edit: Oh i see that Steve has made a thread with a similar resonant charging circuit, so he has encountered the problem too.

Yes, i made it working.

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1355.0.html

The key to production with HV is that you have to have a basic current flowing.
The current creates from water a conductor. Then you can hit it with HV.
The HV MUST be HF as well. Try to keep it higher then 10khz.
Electrons will travel on the OUTSIDE of the conductor, aka watermolecule path.
Google on tesla's skineffect.

Steve




Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2010, 22:23:00 pm
Yes i know the skin effect. So the current at high frequency will travel on the outer layers of water and not right through, together with the vic the current will be limited this way and not much current through the water.
Now the important question is, does pure voltage split the water?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2010, 11:22:24 am
Yes i know the skin effect. So the current at high frequency will travel on the outer layers of water and not right through, together with the vic the current will be limited this way and not much current through the water.
Now the important question is, does pure voltage split the water?

Yes pure voltage spits water!!!!!!!!

Do you understand the meaning of my publishings? ((" It was to show you how to get voltage across the water, ")) Now its your job to take that information and make it work.

Now you can see voltage across the water do nothing, It just sits there. You know there is voltage there so why is it not splitting the water molecule? Go find your answer as you've been given the path.

When you succeed in Kv across your cell, Make them Kvolts do something and forget amps and current, Get current out of your head, Forget it. Alter the voltage not the current. How can voltage be altered? How must the molecule want the voltage to perform???

Take for example the microwave oven, Why does the water become heated?
Take for example the Vic, Why does the water become seperated?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2010, 11:28:16 am
Taken from the internet www

When your fingers are close enough to the door handle, a spark jumps. Or in other words, the intense electric field in the space between your fingers and the metal handle will tear the air molecules apart. First the field stretches the molecules by attracting their alike charges while repelling the unlike ones. Then finally an electron pulls loose from one molecule. This electron takes off at extremely high speed, driven by the e-field. It quickly strikes another air molecule, which liberates more electrons, which then repeat the process. It resembles a landslide, where one pebble strikes another, freeing it to strike others. This "electron avalanche" glows violet, since some electrons are recaptured by air molecules, and they emit violet light typical of ionized nitrogen/oxygen mixtures. Some of the light is ultraviolet, and this light knocks electrons off neighboring air molecules. Also, the region of space that's filled with electrons and positive ions is a conductor, a plasma, and so it distorts the flux lines of the electric field. Plasmas typically take the shape of a long filament, a "lightning leader," since the tip of the plasma filament is somewhat sharp, and it causes the e-field to concentrate there (which promotes faster creation of plasma.)

The electron avalanche and the plasma filament can start out on the car door, then reach outwards toward your fingers. Or it can start out on your fingers and leap towards the door. Or it can be triggered by dust motes in the space between the two, and then leap in both directions. Charge polarity doesn't make too much difference, and the visible "leaping" of sparks is NOT a motion of charges, it's not a visible current. Instead it's an outbreak of glowing plasma, and this outbreak can go in either direction.

Finally the plasma filament touches your finger and the car door. It's a conductor with a typical resistance of a few tens of ohms. This conductor EXPLODES. It has shorted out the capacitor plates formed by your body and the metal car. The e-field in the space between you and the car then collapses inwards towards the spark. Electrical energy that was in the space near your hand is flowing inwards towards the spark. (Energy doesn't flow across the spark, instead the energy behaves like a cylinder shape that surrounds the spark and shrinks inwards.)

A huge electric current appears in the spark, and temperatures in the air (and in the dead skin surrounding your salty conductive flesh) rise to immense values. The air emits sound and bright light, while your dead skin is cooked or even vaporized by the electrical energy pouring into the spark. The pain you experience is not necessarily electrical, it's similar to having your finger poked by a white-hot needle. If you grasp a metal coin or some keys, and let the spark jump to the metal, you'll feel almost nothing. The metal prevents the burn while doing little to stop the current.

Painful finger-sparks can measure a few amperes, but they only last for a hundredth of a microsecond. The worst ones can range up to many tens of amperes, with peak energy flow up in the megawatts. But these sparks last for incredibly brief times. Your nervous system only responds on time scales of a tenth or a hundredth of a second. Your nervous system "blurs" the energy and charge flows, and it "thinks" that the wattage and current of the spark is roughly a million times weaker than it actually is. Hurts though.

For more info about the typical "human finger sparks" used by manufacturers for stress-testing new appliances, search for HBM or "Human Body Model": Google: ESD, HBM, CDM, MM
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 08, 2010, 17:54:58 pm
thanks Warp. I read your posts concerning the voltage disassociation of water and will continue doing so.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2010, 11:46:11 am
set up the meyer / naudin circuit again. this time using distilled water without further insulation, capacity is fairly good though. 300-500V peak come out of the transformer, works fine.
the problem is again, no voltage at the cap (not more than 2.4V of that 500V peak!), even at relatively low 20kHz. used a 3,6k resistor in series for charging the cap and also reducing current further. current on the high side is then around 90mA (measured without rms meter so not necessarily correct).
this has got to work somehow, the other problem is that if i replace the wfc with a real capacitor it doesn't charge to 2*Upeak like it should, i don't know what i'm doing wrong.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 10:46:50 am
set up the meyer / naudin circuit again. this time using distilled water without further insulation, capacity is fairly good though. 300-500V peak come out of the transformer, works fine.
the problem is again, no voltage at the cap (not more than 2.4V of that 500V peak!), even at relatively low 20kHz. used a 3,6k resistor in series for charging the cap and also reducing current further. current on the high side is then around 90mA (measured without rms meter so not necessarily correct).
this has got to work somehow, the other problem is that if i replace the wfc with a real capacitor it doesn't charge to 2*Upeak like it should, i don't know what i'm doing wrong.

Hi haithar,

I had the same issues with the Naudin circuit.
I even had contact with Naudin, but he didnt want to say much about it.
Here is the copy of text of the email about the insulation:


Dans un e-mail daté du 27/06/2008 09:52:48 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), stevie1001@hotmail.com a écrit :
Does this mean:
1. only the outside of the innertube is insulated with tape?
2. the whole innertube is NOT touching the water at all? Inside and outside insulated?
 
br
Steve
 
Dear Steve,
 
The cathod is FULLY insulated and also its wire connection, this is a stainless steel rod fully covered on all sides with insulation.
 
Sincerely,
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: jnaudin509@aol.com
Web site : www.jlnlabs.org




Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 10:48:36 am
My other email with him:


Re: wfc replication?
Van:  JNaudin509@aol.com 
Verzonden: vrijdag 27 juni 2008 7:00:41
Aan:  stevie1001@hotmail.com

Dans un e-mail daté du 25/06/2008 17:07:43 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été), stevie1001@hotmail.com a écrit :
Dear Jean-Louis Naudin,
 
Over the years, i have been reading your website with lots of interest.
I am bussy with the wfc technic for some years and you made me a happy man with your publication about Stan meyer.
Thank you for publishing your results of the Stan Meyer replication.
I made a topic of this on my forum http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,459.0.html
I hope you have time to read some of the postings there and maybe you can answer some questions?
We are all very enthousiastic but some are sceptic.
 
I was hoping that you could answer some of the questions:
1. what were the exact numbers of the consumed power and gas production?
2. Is your conclusion that when you raise the voltage to higher levels that production would raise as well?
 
Thanks in advance and
Sincerely yours,
 

Dear Steve ,
 
Thank you very much for your comments and for your interest in my WFC experiment published in my web site. The current test report about the WFC is a only preliminary test report to explore the feasibility and the working of the Meyer's device on the lab test bench.
 
I have published on June 26 all the technical details (diagram and size) about the current WFC cell under tests and some additional datas about the transformer that I have used at : http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm
 
I have also added some links about Ravi Raju and Dave Lawton WFC replications at the bottom of the WFC Project page.
 
You will find also there experimental data results at : http://www.liberationtechnology.co.uk/wfcdata.htm
 
Today I am convinced that the Stanley Meyer's WFC works as he claims, I am now working on a new WFC reactor v2 and on the new electronic circuit based on my latest measurements published in my web site. The new setup will allow me to do measurements about the gaz flow at the WFC output.
 
Stay tuned, I shall soon post some news and updates...
 
Sincerely,
Cordialement,
Jean-Louis Naudin
Email: jnaudin509@aol.com
Web site : www.jlnlabs.org
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 11:42:07 am
maybe you should try something similair like this:

Instead of SCR, use a FET.

http://teslahv.com/DC%20Resonant.htm
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 13:58:15 pm
where's the difference to the stan meyer circuit / dc tesla coil circuit? it doesn't work because you have to short out the cap first to "charge" the coil and then connect both in series to get 2*Ud onto the capacitor. That's what the richie burnett circuit does with the spark gap, it shorts the cap when the spark gap fires so the coil can get the magnetic field and then the cap is charged with Ud + Magnetic Field voltage. At least that's my own explanation and the only one i could make why it does not work.


anyway, i blew my last hv mosfet because i forgot the flyback diode, not good at 300V. now i'll have to order new ones, so i'm delayed another week. the 30 seconds everything was working gas was created, but also 1A current. Higher frequency -> lower current, but also higher voltage spikes which blew the mosfet.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 17:30:18 pm
where's the difference to the stan meyer circuit / dc tesla coil circuit? it doesn't work because you have to short out the cap first to "charge" the coil and then connect both in series to get 2*Ud onto the capacitor. That's what the richie burnett circuit does with the spark gap, it shorts the cap when the spark gap fires so the coil can get the magnetic field and then the cap is charged with Ud + Magnetic Field voltage. At least that's my own explanation and the only one i could make why it does not work.


anyway, i blew my last hv mosfet because i forgot the flyback diode, not good at 300V. now i'll have to order new ones, so i'm delayed another week. the 30 seconds everything was working gas was created, but also 1A current. Higher frequency -> lower current, but also higher voltage spikes which blew the mosfet.

Now you are getting there, Haithar.
In our simulators you must add a resistor in parallel with the cap for make it leaking.
In real time, your wfc will leak. Thats why you need a parallel setup of tubes.

To make you feel good:
I also blew up 2 FETS and 2 very expensive diodes....argggg

Maybe a small tip. In powersupllys from computers you can find many usable components.......

Steve





Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 21:49:59 pm
when you gate the pulses, will that not let the cell drain off as if it was shorted? i think the gating is an important thing to think about, he will pulse it a few times, then gate it as soon as the voltage peaks... or the cap is charged... what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 22:28:52 pm
when you gate the pulses, will that not let the cell drain off as if it was shorted? i think the gating is an important thing to think about, he will pulse it a few times, then gate it as soon as the voltage peaks... or the cap is charged... what do you guys think?
most of the charge / voltage will drain off, yes. probably to save power, probably to give the gas time to leave the bath, who knows ;)
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 23:20:52 pm
It's fairly easy to answer these fundamental questions for yourself.  It's not guesswork and it doesn't cost a lot of money.  All one needs is a cheap pwm with variable frequency and pulse width and cheap inverter circuit without transformer to explore the relationship between frequency and pulse width or gating.  I documented what I did in the thread ca 1234774.  AC can be used if one treats the wfc as a center tap transformer with 2 positive legs and a central ground leg.  2 or a multiple of 2 sets of tube sets are necessary to do that.  I used 6.  I have room for 16 in a 4 inch tube and 3 points for support of the array.  My output measurements were unimpressive to me at 12-14 volts.  I expect better results with voltages of at least 20 and water circulation between a reservoir and wfc.

Andy
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 00:17:55 am
i was referring to the gating as triggering the resonance in the manner that a spark gap triggers resonance in a tesla coil
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 00:31:06 am
Hi Donald,

We may be talking about different things.  Gating is sometimes referred to as pulse width.  Tesla's disruptive spark gap is something else.  It has unusual properties in a circuit that can be seen in the hairpin circuit.  There's a few replications of Karl Palsness' circuit and they all do the same weird things.

Andy
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 00:49:51 am
It's fairly easy to answer these fundamental questions for yourself.  It's not guesswork and it doesn't cost a lot of money.  All one needs is a cheap pwm with variable frequency and pulse width and cheap inverter circuit without transformer to explore the relationship between frequency and pulse width or gating.  I documented what I did in the thread ca 1234774.  AC can be used if one treats the wfc as a center tap transformer with 2 positive legs and a central ground leg.  2 or a multiple of 2 sets of tube sets are necessary to do that.  I used 6.  I have room for 16 in a 4 inch tube and 3 points for support of the array.  My output measurements were unimpressive to me at 12-14 volts.  I expect better results with voltages of at least 20 and water circulation between a reservoir and wfc.

Andy

Ok so why not try out your theory and experiment ?

I believe all the circuits and schematics for exactly such a thing are on this site and can be made at home .
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 01:13:21 am
Hi Dankie, I reported my findings elsewhere here.  I intend to explore other ideas further soon.  I will report here findings good or bad.  I get a drill press on Tuesday coming up so I can get on with a new build of a resonant cell of 16 tubes.  I found that attempting a build by hand wasn't possible (by me) as the clearances between the tubes are critical and all the sleeves have to be on the money otherwise shorts occur.  And you're right everything is here it's not voodoo science as far as circuits go.  I will be following Stan's instructions more or less.  Lawton and his crew were close but they didn't have enough information.  I never got any buildup on my tubes as water cleaned the tubes (and rods) as the water was processed.  They were always clean every time I took the cell apart for inspection.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 01:58:22 am
16 tubes for a resonant cell? sounds like fun!
each tube set has to be driven with it's own VIC and frequency though
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 02:24:31 am
I don't think Stan immediately jumped to his individually driven resonant cavities.  My purpose is to attempt to insulate the tubes and prevent electrical leakage much like dry cells do.  Since I'm using ordinary tap or distilled water pumping isn't that critical as far as internal components of the pump go.  The tubes act as pumps as well by themselves.  It's not corrosive electrolyte.  It won't be that much fun :p

Andy
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 03:46:43 am
the only time stan ever ran more than one tube was when he used the alternator, all VIC's were for one tube set only. even his brother Stephen used 2 alternators for 6 tubes where each tube was driven off of a single phase. I think your 16 tube set would be awesome, but i just wanted to point out the research behind making the decisions, because you can spend a lot of money on a cell, it just depends on what you are trying to replicate and which system you are experimenting with... and the delrin insulated resonant cavities were always small and individually driven, and used over 1000 volts.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 05:11:00 am
Understood Donald.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 17, 2010, 11:08:09 am
900V Mosfets came today, this week i got hold of one Arduino Nano board and started programming a little PWM with gating. Works fine, i'll add the button interrupt and try it, the flickering of the frequency on my other pwm module was really annoying, probably even 10-turn potentiometers aren't the best for precise settings.


PWM works now, very clean until 10kHz with gating, without gating it could be pushed much further (at least 100kHz). One can define that each 3./4./5./n. th pulse is left out, so it's stable compared to the Dave Lawton PWM and uses only the mini-board, 2 resistors and 2 push-buttons.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 17, 2010, 17:57:02 pm
Turns out the old Mosfet wasn't damaged. The preamplifying stage didn't work. My first mosfet was generating a sawtooth pattern with very little voltage at higher frequency. Have to think of another way to preamplify it.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 18, 2010, 17:55:59 pm
Time for new tests. The setup is like that of JNaudin and i got more or less the same results. However i'm unsure what to think of it.
Power input on the transformer low side: 29,9V * 0,75 A = 22,4W

600V on the high side of the transformer, no problem measuring it at the bifilar coil, probably even higher voltage there. There were 150V+ voltage spikes at the capacitor, not bad for a start.
Bubble output was nice, like 0,5A dc visually. Since it was only 0,75A on the low side it couldn't be that much on the high side, could it?
Since i couldn't use an ampmeter for measuring rapid impulse currents i used a 3,5Ohm resistor and measured the voltage over it with an oscilloscope. The 3,5Ohm resistor was in series to the cap, between both coils.

My line of thought was the following. If i knew the voltage at the resistor, and had the voltage waveform on the oscilloscope i knew that i could calculate the current (it's in phase to voltage).
Okay so the voltage spike was basically a reverse sawtooth shape.
Started at 35V and then oscillated to zero in 0,4ms.
The area of the voltage over time is (triangle) A = 0,5 * 35V * 0,4ms = 7 * 10^-3 Vs
The resistor is a 3,5Ohm type, so the Charge transferred in the pulse is Q = I * t = U * t / R = 2 * 10^-3 As
Now the time from one pulse to another was 3,5ms.

The current transferred at constant is therefore I = Q / t = 2*10^-3 As / 3,5 * 10^-3 s = 0,57A which would match the amount i determined visually.
Note that the voltage pulse at the cap and the current pulses are in phase, so the tube is acting not as a capacitor, but only as a resistor (no insulation, tap water).

The strange thing is that the current is so high, the "constant" voltage would be 22,4W(in) / 0,57A = 39,3V on the high side. Maybe i'm making an error of thought here. The current was okay if it charged the capacitor plates, but since it is in phase with the voltage that is not the case.
It's also strange that the pulse frequency on the low side is ~30kHz, but the pulses appear in 3,4ms intervals, which would be a frequency of 285Hz.

Will do more tests with insulation soon.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 18, 2010, 19:50:45 pm
Insulated tube, ~600V, no gas production.
Last thing i'll try is 300V halfwave-ac with not insulated tube (like the plate cell).
If it doesn't work either i'm done with wfcs.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 18, 2010, 23:24:40 pm
Insulated tube, ~600V, no gas production.
Last thing i'll try is 300V halfwave-ac with not insulated tube (like the plate cell).
If it doesn't work either i'm done with wfcs.

I know the feeling.....But i am addicted to wfc's........
We all have found 1 million setups that doesnt work.. ;)
Go for it. Who knows you find the right setup.



Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 03:19:56 am
Insulated tube, ~600V, no gas production.
Last thing i'll try is 300V halfwave-ac with not insulated tube (like the plate cell).
If it doesn't work either i'm done with wfcs.


If it doesn't work you're done with wfc's... Thats Ok, But if what doesn't work? The Overunity Cold electrolysis or the normal electrolysis?

I can see your frustrations.. 

This is a way of showing obligation to something, I can clearly see your obligated to the point you're frustrated with not knowing the truth. Not knowing what the secret is.


Once someone as long as you has been at it long has you have been these are the type of comments one makes, BUT, you simply can not leave it alone, or let it be. In the back of your mind you will always be trying to figure the secret out.

Eventually, you will wind up on the Atomic level, Everyone will. It just takes some longer than others to wind up there. You start to understand stan Ran his car , The Bug, on Normal electrolysis, Then realize he also had a different claim under his sleeve, The voltage potential claim.

When you mix the running of the bug on normal electrolysis with voltage potential, Your mind corrupts. Till this day peoples still have not realized what stan done. Once it is confirmed that he was generating normal 3 phase on board the bug, and it is confirmed that the amount generated was enough to create massive amounts of gas using simple series plate cells everyone will agree this is what he done. Then it will be realized that water can be broken using voltage potential, That stan was on the right track with it even if he didn't have a working vic. We will never really know if stan could pull water apart using little electricity, But we will one day be able to use the potential stan spoke of.

In most places, It is illegal to generate 3 phase from single phase. Electricity is cheaper when you're generating 3 phase.

There is a GAP in 3 phase that people are not familure with, , , And,,,, the utility companys do not like this gap!

Did you know most commercial companys using 3 phase is not billed by the Killowatt meter???? Why don't you look into commercial utility billing for most higher voltage companys like 3 phase and study why they're not billed the same. Perhaps, when you make man made 3 phase from single phase there is a Hole, A Gap where you get FREE power, Perhaps, Things Perform differently under a 3 phase source.


For Example, Would you rather have a 120 volt Air compressor or a 220 volt one?
Perhaps,,, a 3 phase air compressor would just completely Smoke 220. Everyone thats mathematically challenged should know 220 is way cheaper than 120, And anyone skilled in the art knows that there is something unique when comparing 3 phase to single phase, There is clearly a hole there that can not be "Billed" properly using a normal utility meter.  So whats the excuse for the Billing method used when it comes to 3 phase and beyond, Why can these voltages not be billed as the normal 120 220 voltages?

BECAUSE THEY"RE COMMERCIAL, Lol, No none commercial is going to have 3 phase, It is highly disliked! So, it isn't really billed different because its commercial electricity, , , Theres something they arent telling you, They're just throwing ("Commercial") Billing in (a clever way of wording) rather than saying, The Utility meters dont work with commercial electricity...

Stan had commercial electricity on his bug, he created it just as someone in a country shop would.


Reasearch into how commercial companys get billed, its more of a time issue rather than meter issue, It also matters the time of day it is to the best of my memory.


On the other part, Don't just think you understand how the microwave oven works, (Take time to really understand it.) Hopefully this will get you on the (Atomic side of things.)


And FOR THE LAST TIME
SOMEONE POST THAT BIG 3 PHASE GEN THAT WAS ON STANS CAR. I can't remember if it was a photo or a video clip, Just post it and bring my attention to it if you happen to find it.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 11:20:23 am
Thanks Warp. As i said i'm not interested in running a car on .. whatever gases it were in Stan's car .. but only in the magical electrolysis process, which seems to be nonexistant.
I'm good at electronics and software and horrible on everything mechanical or chemistry, someone else has to figure that part out if the electrolysis is not overunity.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 14:18:11 pm

 Warp, You talking about that Rediline Rotary Inverter ??
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 14:30:44 pm
Thanks Warp. As i said i'm not interested in running a car on .. whatever gases it were in Stan's car .. but only in the magical electrolysis process, which seems to be nonexistant.
I'm good at electronics and software and horrible on everything mechanical or chemistry, someone else has to figure that part out if the electrolysis is not overunity.

NoneExistant could very well mean misunderstood. For example 1 watt is equal to 3.412 Btu. Lets say you measure 18 amps at the heat pumps input at 220 volts which is 3,960 watts of electrical energy usage. This is an input of 3968 * 3.412 (13,538 Btu's.) Thats 1 ton. And say for example you get from the system 2 tons of heat, 24000 Btu's.

U see the input power was doubled at its output, But is it an overunity device, No. Its marked off as a Heat transferring device which takes the heat from outside air and brings it indoors. These types of devices has their problems due to the "weather."

The Cold electrolysis proccess is like the heat pump. Please study heat pumps to help grasp the ideal that nothing is overunity. We would take Voltage potential, Then use no current flow to pull water apart, and when I say no current thats just what I mean, Current plays no role in pulling apart the molecule, Current in such a setup is Truly void. Somewhere along those lines it will be paid for, Just as the heat,,, Heating the home was extracted from the outside (heat transferee) air.  The voltage electrolysis process will be extracting something from some where once you get it to work.

Just as the Heat pump pulled heat from the outside air haith, The Vic could very well Pull electrons Via Antenna and earth ground, (energy extracted from the ambient surroundings.) A energy transferring unit so to speak, (Just and example.)

If it is a cold process perhaps the electrons are not being used, Perhaps its a brand new form of voltage in a circuit that keeps increasing on the molecule, Perhaps this voltage applied across the water molecule could come from somewhere OTHER than the vic. Perhaps the VIC is just a tool used to extract the voltage from our surroundings, Much like the heat pump is a tool to extract heat from our surroundings.

When this device gets cracked, (And trust me it will) even if its after we're dead and gone, The device will be well explained and the meyer VIC method will not be labeled for an overunity device, It will truly be used to run the world just as the heat pump is running it now.

Just as the microwave Oven alternates across the molecule causing it to heat up, Using some form of a (Push Pull) motion method on the water molecule causing it to heat up, Perhaps the Invisible electron flow from the magnetron causes a Friction upon the molecule causing it to heat? Could it be that if you remove this push pull and just make it push on one side and pull on the other the molecule could SPLIT rather than heat. Microwaves ovens In right in there with heat pumps, We use the both almost every day, And one day,,,, We will use the vic as well, perhaps we will even use it to cook with,, Lowering the flame temperature of hydroxy down to a temp of propane can mean lowered fuel cost, It could cut the needed hydroxy flow in half.

Whats not clearly understood, When a car engine is ran on hydroxy, The timing does not have to be advanced. If you mix (Hydroxy) with (Petrol Fumes) this creates a synthetic fuel where the (Petrol) does not become consumed rapidly. It takes very very very Little (Petrol vapor) and very little Hydroxy Gas to run a ((((V8)))) engine. People do not want to accept the use of petrol and gas mix so they stir clear of the mix. I've ran my Geo from a Petrol Hydroxy Gas mix. When the hydroxy wasn't no where near enough to idle my bug, A touch of gas vapor gets the job done.

As far as the Construction side of the WFC, constructing such a cell isn't really needed. What is lacked is the brains. You could use 2 quarters if you wanted to,,, It is not the fuel cell or type of metal in the cell that makes the process unique, its the proper circuitry and understandings that will make it work. It is possible you don't need anything in the water, It is possible to just aim a gun at the water and shake it apart. The SS electrodes do not carry current into the water, Just allow Fields to be produced in the water.

If you compared a Magnetron to stans VIC, how similar would they be? Where the resonate cavity is inside the magnetron, and in stans version it is a wfc. If you compare those 2, perhaps pure water is too much for the cavity, Perhaps you would instead need a water vapor and inside a lightening storm is brewing. And maybe for every Bolt electrons are released and gas is born, just as someone dropped a big sledge hammer. Just an example of what could be.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 24, 2010, 10:53:59 am
conditioning process was going on fine (i imagined the gas output was getting more  ;)) and the new stable pwm worked as it should when today a cable had a resistance of 1kOhm. that's one of the cables mounted to the tube so i have to disassemble it, assemble it again, glue it with silicone to make it waterproof and then let it dry for two days.
damn it..
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2010, 11:56:28 am
did someone else notice that even if the tube cell is switched off the power supply and shorted (no charge on plates) there is still gas production going on (though very little) and there are around 0.75V on the plates. strange thing. let it stand for half an hour and it was still producing.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2010, 15:42:42 pm
did someone else notice that even if the tube cell is switched off the power supply and shorted (no charge on plates) there is still gas production going on (though very little) and there are around 0.75V on the plates. strange thing. let it stand for half an hour and it was still producing.

Thats the result of charging your waterfuelcell, Haithar  :D
Nice to read your insides...
Looks very similair to my journey, some years ago..

Steve




Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2010, 17:23:40 pm
did someone else notice that even if the tube cell is switched off the power supply and shorted (no charge on plates) there is still gas production going on (though very little) and there are around 0.75V on the plates. strange thing. let it stand for half an hour and it was still producing.

Thats the result of charging your waterfuelcell, Haithar  :D
Nice to read your insides...
Looks very similair to my journey, some years ago..

Steve
Yes, and you did run a generator on HHO? ;) It didn't self sustain did it? I read of the "Anton Cell" today, very similar to your dry cell and they were able to self run it for 40 seconds. may be interesting if they can overcome the gas "buffer" and make it run forever, although i suspect they can't.

By the way, do you know what the brown stuff is? The production of it seems to be constant with time, if you let it electrolyse for 1 hour and clean the water and do the same again, the amount of brown stuff seems to be the same both times, does it really stop building after some time?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2010, 22:46:40 pm
did someone else notice that even if the tube cell is switched off the power supply and shorted (no charge on plates) there is still gas production going on (though very little) and there are around 0.75V on the plates. strange thing. let it stand for half an hour and it was still producing.

Thats the result of charging your waterfuelcell, Haithar  :D
Nice to read your insides...
Looks very similair to my journey, some years ago..

Steve
Yes, and you did run a generator on HHO? ;) It didn't self sustain did it? I read of the "Anton Cell" today, very similar to your dry cell and they were able to self run it for 40 seconds. may be interesting if they can overcome the gas "buffer" and make it run forever, although i suspect they can't.

By the way, do you know what the brown stuff is? The production of it seems to be constant with time, if you let it electrolyse for 1 hour and clean the water and do the same again, the amount of brown stuff seems to be the same both times, does it really stop building after some time?

It did run an generator. When my new drycell is ready, it will again run in comby with the airprocessor.
Hopefully it will selfsustain it self. Signs are good. New cell will be higher then 100% faraday... :-)

The brown stuff is part of the chemical reaction.
It happens more when you use tapwater.
Destilled with KOH or NAOH do almost produce no brown scum.
On my tapwater configuration, i had a waterfilter in line to filter the brown scum out. Nasty stuff.

I never heard about  teh Anton cell. I will google on it.
What is it for a cell?

Steve




Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 25, 2010, 23:01:49 pm
did someone else notice that even if the tube cell is switched off the power supply and shorted (no charge on plates) there is still gas production going on (though very little) and there are around 0.75V on the plates. strange thing. let it stand for half an hour and it was still producing.

Thats the result of charging your waterfuelcell, Haithar  :D
Nice to read your insides...
Looks very similair to my journey, some years ago..

Steve
Yes, and you did run a generator on HHO? ;) It didn't self sustain did it? I read of the "Anton Cell" today, very similar to your dry cell and they were able to self run it for 40 seconds. may be interesting if they can overcome the gas "buffer" and make it run forever, although i suspect they can't.

By the way, do you know what the brown stuff is? The production of it seems to be constant with time, if you let it electrolyse for 1 hour and clean the water and do the same again, the amount of brown stuff seems to be the same both times, does it really stop building after some time?

It did run an generator. When my new drycell is ready, it will again run in comby with the airprocessor.
Hopefully it will selfsustain it self. Signs are good. New cell will be higher then 100% faraday... :-)

The brown stuff is part of the chemical reaction.
It happens more when you use tapwater.
Destilled with KOH or NAOH do almost produce no brown scum.
On my tapwater configuration, i had a waterfilter in line to filter the brown scum out. Nasty stuff.

I never heard about  teh Anton cell. I will google on it.
What is it for a cell?

Steve
I read several times that the brown scum won't appear anymore after a conditioning phase, but if it's because of the water that wouldn't be true.
Distilled water is not so good in terms of energy.


The Anton cell thread is here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9099
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 01:01:00 am
Hmmm,

Nice topic on those anton cells.

Steve
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 14:22:58 pm
Doing conditioning for several hours a day now. At first the bubbles were like a stream of liquid fog, very very small. It shifts now, the bubbles become very large compared to the beginning, the small bubbles are still there but more and more large bubbles, like describes in the attached presentation ("charged water cluster"). It reminds me of the Joe cell stuff where the brown muck was created too and the bubbles started to change over time.
The current consumption went down from 1A to 0.9A in the last 3 hours without change on the power supply.

Brown stuff generated at the same rate, proportional to applied current.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 16:33:15 pm
what voltage do you have between the tubes?

are you using plain tap water? or some additives?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 17:08:52 pm
Voltage depends, first it was 20V/1A overall, dropped to 19.5V/0.9A with time.
I have the old and long tube pictured in this thread in series with 4 new tubes in a separate container, both old tube and new tubes getting about half the voltage (~10V). Doesn't really matter it seems, the gas production is dependant on current, not voltage. the change in production is pretty interesting though.

The water is tap water mixed with distilled water (what was left in my container), no electrolytes.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 18:15:38 pm
Haithar, have you thought of using some sort of resistance right after the cathode? Are you trying to reproduce the results of Ravi?
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 18:28:39 pm
Indeed, as that's the only thing left worth trying to replicate.
But i remember it was advised to not use any resistance on the negative side?! The current is low enough anyway.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 18:47:55 pm
Who advised not to use a resistance behind the cathode? That seems weird, for what the result of the coating is adding resistance to the cathode. It just appears to me that passivization or whatever it's called, is the hard way of going about it. Do you by any chance have another tube set to compare to in different trial setups? It would be enlightening to see the same effects with much less work, wouldn't it? I think you are doing a great job of experimenting instead of armchair antics which we see all to often. Hats off to you sir!

P.S. I didn't mean to add resistance to the passivated cathode, I was implying to skip the passivation process by just using a resistance in a similar fashion to get the same results. Using current to resist current... Quite a strange concept to me.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 19:07:07 pm
Who advised not to use a resistance behind the cathode? That seems weird, for what the result of the coating is adding resistance to the cathode. It just appears to me that passivization or whatever it's called, is the hard way of going about it. Do you by any chance have another tube set to compare to in different trial setups? It would be enlightening to see the same effects with much less work, wouldn't it? I think you are doing a great job of experimenting instead of armchair antics which we see all to often. Hats off to you sir!

P.S. I didn't mean to add resistance to the passivated cathode, I was implying to skip the passivation process by just using a resistance in a similar fashion to get the same results. Using current to resist current... Quite a strange concept to me.
Ah now i see what you are talking about, i thought you were talking about a resistor added in series on the negative side.
Indeed the coating creates a resistance on the cathode as it's non conducting and limiting the current to a certain degree over time. I have by far not the coating intensity seen in Aaron's or Ravi's videos.
It seems that you cannot simply add saran wrap to inhibit current and create gas (whatever type it is and properties it may have) instantly, did that already and even at voltages above 600V nothing happened really. Same thing with > 10kV, see the water fracture apparatus thread for that.

I'm not even sure about the bifilar in series as it was added to the later Lawton circuit, probably because Meyer did it that way, but there is no blocking diode and the coating-setup is somewhat different from Meyers. Also in the Free-Energy PDF it states that Dave Lawton tried the circuit without inductor and alternator and it worked as good as before.
I do have two different tubes, the first being conditioned for two weeks already and the others were put into use some days ago. Unfortunately i have no way of putting it into a sealed container and measure the difference in gas production, it seems visually that the conditioned tube produces more at the same current, but i really can't say if it is true.
I also cannot say how the efficiency really is and if the charged water cluster observation in the pdf is true then it's not electrolysis anyway and efficiency calculation not possible with faraday's law.

It would be interesting to find out what the white coating and what the brown muck is.
Further experimenting will be delayed as i now have 10 hour-days at university for the week and a full weekend  ;)
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 19:13:25 pm
Voltage depends, first it was 20V/1A overall, dropped to 19.5V/0.9A with time.
I have the old and long tube pictured in this thread in series with 4 new tubes in a separate container, both old tube and new tubes getting about half the voltage (~10V). Doesn't really matter it seems, the gas production is dependant on current, not voltage. the change in production is pretty interesting though.

The water is tap water mixed with distilled water (what was left in my container), no electrolytes.

Ok, I see, you performing the same tests I did a few years back. from my experiments I found that the brown stuff is created by the contaminants in the water and the use of higher voltage (over 2.8 volts). I actually think it is the bleach found in tap water.

I have used water from air conditioning drippings and all the way up to 150 volts and the water stays clean, but as soon as I use tap water and voltages over 2.8 volts, the brown junk starts to build up. So my conclusion is that it has nothing to do with conditioning.

if you add some additives like KOH to your tap water, then you drop your voltage to under 2.8V the production is more efficient and no more brown junk.

 
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 19:39:39 pm
University you say? Is there anyone there you work with that might have access to a testing facility for these strange byproducts produced by our cells?

When Ravi was more in the limelight back in the day, he revealed he was noticing a faint glow radiating from inside the tubes. At the time, I was less educated in the art and I went to investigate cavitation and sonoluminescence. But, now I know he was seeing a coronal discharge of some sort. I am currently researching coronal discharges and have just recently found that it is very possible the UV created from the coronal discharge may in fact be causing a photoelectric effect from the cathode or maybe even the anode. At this point I can only assume that any coating on either electrode would inhibit this effect. If in fact, we can photo-ionize stainless steel with UV, then we will have an abundance of free electrons in the medium which may be influenced by high voltages and certain frequencies to cause further ionization by collision. That's just an assumption so far though.

Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 20:38:37 pm
forgot to add this...

http://thesiliconweb.net/SiliconWeb_Contents_files/Sec%2012.4.2.pdf
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 20:47:12 pm
I don't think the photoelectric effect has anything to do with it. I once read Ravi did his youtube videos at night, cell's wouldn't work in a dark room without uv light and when i was in school the teacher had a large uv lamp shine onto the metal to get the electroscope to move.
I don't know anyone from chemistry yet whom i could ask for identifying the coating.

Probably 2.8V and electrolyte would make the process more efficient, but if ravi's findings and the pdf-explanation are true it's not normal electrolysis.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 26, 2010, 21:23:21 pm
I don't think the photoelectric effect has anything to do with it. I once read Ravi did his youtube videos at night, cell's wouldn't work in a dark room without uv light and when i was in school the teacher had a large uv lamp shine onto the metal to get the electroscope to move.
I don't know anyone from chemistry yet whom i could ask for identifying the coating.

Probably 2.8V and electrolyte would make the process more efficient, but if ravi's findings and the pdf-explanation are true it's not normal electrolysis.

I believe that Ravi results are fake. just BS
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 27, 2010, 07:42:01 am
If you view ravies videos you will see Bubbles at startup. This Indicates Distilled water and a very small gap. I use to think the water had dish soap in it, I later learned that Distilled water had this affect.

At one time I uploaded a video showing this same affect, My video that contained distilled water looked Identical to ravies Gas production when compared. It has nothing to do with conditioning.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 27, 2010, 07:49:45 am
This Video I am using Distilled Water.
Title: Re: Tube cell reloaded
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 29, 2010, 10:05:41 am
Tried DC today, same amount of current = same amount of gas.
With conditioning it's more like switching from less efficient to more efficient and not from very efficient to overunity.

I'm out of the wfc stuff now as there's nothing promising left to follow, will watch Donald's thread though. I'm directing my energies into the more 'real' types of renewable technologies now.