Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: johnd on February 18, 2010, 17:55:10 pm

Title: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 17:55:10 pm
After getting frustrated with transformers and chokes i decided to try Kevin West's method . Well im finaly getting lots of bubbles :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlKJArWt8VE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlKJArWt8VE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTsE84b6e4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTsE84b6e4)

Happy days

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 18:07:54 pm
After getting frustrated with transformers and chokes i decided to try Kevin West's method . Well im finaly getting lots of bubbles :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlKJArWt8VE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlKJArWt8VE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTsE84b6e4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OTsE84b6e4)

Happy days

John

Ok, John. Well done.
First step is done in making HHO!

Steve



Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 18:13:26 pm
How much power do you need for that?
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 18:45:07 pm
How much power do you need for that?

Thats using about 1.5 amps

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 20:04:13 pm
By Kevin Wests method you mean pulsing a rewired (higher voltage) alternator?

Looks good!

Do you notice an increase in production from pulsing the alternator compared to not pulsing it?
Are you finding an kind of resonance with your pulsing?
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2010, 20:34:43 pm
Yes , its the rewired high voltage alternator method . Loads more bubbles by pulsing it . Getting the step charging effect on the scope , i'll post some pics tomorrow .

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 11:28:55 am
How much power do you need for that?

Thats using about 1.5 amps

John
1.5 Amps total? Or only circuit or only alternator? And 12V for both? thanks  :) Also pulsed current, direct current, alternating current? It's all important for power calculations.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 13:24:01 pm
Hey, good work, those results are nice to hear.

I may try some pulsing with my alternator soon, there are lots of things I want to try as soon as I get the free time.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 13:32:28 pm
what is the frequency your alternator puts out without it being pulsed?
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 18:43:29 pm
@ haither .... There is 1.5 amps going into the alternator (12v pulsed ) , about 100 volts out .

what is the frequency your alternator puts out without it being pulsed?
I dont know sorry . but it does produce some bubbles without being pulsed . I was hoping to do some tests today but havent had time .
John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 20:48:03 pm
Hi about the frequency of the alternator signal it puts out.
Ran a test with just a variac and full bridge on the rotor. This is 120hz solid no duty. If half bridge is used would be 60hz 50% duty and will try that soon.
Standard 36 well alternator but windings connected in series and a diode between winding 2-3 to see if this winding method worked that was posted by H2opower at another forum.
Well it worked pretty good and only 1 diode. Its more of an AC signal but has DC in it.
Frequency the scope saw was 345-350 hertz pretty solid.
Motor is 3450 rpm and the pulley ratio is near 1:1.

Wish I could vary motor speed, will try other pulley sizes soon.
Efficiency best with 1 tube set and lowers when other tube sets are connected. Thats one reason to see if motor speed would effect the efficiency rating.
Basing efficiency on current in phase with voltage signal.

Also would like to see what changes when more winding and smaller wire is used.
Its fun but there are so many variables to play with.

Right now trying to concentrate on the foam produced.
Waiting for others to post findings and maybe start talking about the foam and how to fully convert it.
Also why is there so much foam is it the water contaminents (type of water) holding it together?
Not ionized enough?
I'm sure you guys have seen plenty of foam right?

If the foam got converted there would be that much more fuel available for several methods of use.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 22:22:18 pm
Hi about the frequency of the alternator signal it puts out.
Ran a test with just a variac and full bridge on the rotor. This is 120hz solid no duty. If half bridge is used would be 60hz 50% duty and will try that soon.
Standard 36 well alternator but windings connected in series and a diode between winding 2-3 to see if this winding method worked that was posted by H2opower at another forum.
Well it worked pretty good and only 1 diode. Its more of an AC signal but has DC in it.
Frequency the scope saw was 345-350 hertz pretty solid.
Motor is 3450 rpm and the pulley ratio is near 1:1.

Wish I could vary motor speed, will try other pulley sizes soon.
Efficiency best with 1 tube set and lowers when other tube sets are connected. Thats one reason to see if motor speed would effect the efficiency rating.
Basing efficiency on current in phase with voltage signal.

Also would like to see what changes when more winding and smaller wire is used.
Its fun but there are so many variables to play with.

Right now trying to concentrate on the foam produced.
Waiting for others to post findings and maybe start talking about the foam and how to fully convert it.
Also why is there so much foam is it the water contaminents (type of water) holding it together?
Not ionized enough?
I'm sure you guys have seen plenty of foam right?

If the foam got converted there would be that much more fuel available for several methods of use.

Komtek,

Can you tell us what kind of water and/or chemicals you use?


Steve

Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 22:43:32 pm
No chemicals!
Last test spring water but doesn't matter tap water is the same, plenty of foam.
Will try rain water but I'm expecting the same result.

Looking at all others tests its the same stuff nice white foam bubbles filling the cell water bath.

Most of these tests appear to be straight no chemical water, spring tap or rain.
Look at Kevin West same stuff. For several years of water-cell video's its the same stuff. Meyer video's, Ravi's, Lawtons all of them.
Plenty of white foam.
I'm interested in converting the foam but no added chemicals.
Maybe filtering and processing, maybe another voltage zone.
But no chemicals, or how would an anti foaming agent work?
Has to be a way to keep it simple don't you think?

The foam has the appearance that it is split but the waters surface tension won't let is all release.
Some gas comes out but not all.


 
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 22:57:21 pm
LOOKS GREAT!!!

FOR MOTOR SPEED CONTROL YOU CAN USE:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=43060

And maybe some GAS-EX for the foam!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 23:28:52 pm
In my tests with different water types and voltage type,
i seen that foam too. Its mostly because of the water pollution and high voltage, like 12v.
If you would use max 2volts, you will see much less foam.

All voltage above 2V create steam and NO hydrogen.
Not sure what you want to achieve with the foam.

Steve
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 23:38:32 pm
komtek, if you are able to set it up so you have a pump forcing water through the cell, that will definitely break surface tension, and help move the hydrogen out.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2010, 23:58:01 pm
This is gonna require more than that if you are to do it without running into a wall of impossiblity .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive

You basicly need a high frequency synchronous motor and a high current 3 phase drive if you want anything remotly efficient  past the 400 hz AND controllable with a knob wich is a must , you also need alot of series batteries or an massive house dc supply . Single phase motors should be avoided because theres less torque for the same amount of energy. We are talking a minimum of 1000 watts and lots of money here with the most efficient technique . Use a single phase chopper pwm with a pulley and you will hit the torque maxima , go too fast and you might break the alternator , its basicly hell on earth . Just running this @ 400 hz with house current is an achievement on its own , nice Job Komtek .


Either that or you go linear amplification , but that too has its problems specially with those big parallel caps in the Stephen Meyers system , you basicly need a 0 feedback amp or some compensation with loads of current gain to get those transistor nice and full and keep that nice sine wave , add the bias to that and you see the efficieny dropping and snowball overheating issues come into play ... Quite complex .
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 00:38:25 am
Steve you say all the voltage above 2volts is making steam?
Then all the foam is totally relateable to steam?

If so I do not understand why the steam is in small bubble form.?
That foam is like an entrapment of a combination of process, steam, and hydroxyl.

Maybe I should try to get the pump connected and check but I think there's plenty of hydroxyl locked into those bubbles.
Will have to work on some connections to pump in and or out in the near future to learn about this foam stuff more.
Its a parasite and everyone using multiple tubes has ran into it, I'm sure.
(Maybe a good test would be to connect the tubes in series?).

Many things would not make sense if its all steam, why are people making hi-voltage alternators for tube sets.
Its not all steam! (Needs to be looked into some more).   
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 01:11:59 am
Measure the temp? if it's steam it will have a high temp, that'll settle it. I don't think it's steam though.

I wouldn't really worry about the trapped bubbles too much, because the water is only going to hold so much once it start running, and then all the production after that saturation point is going to be forced out... so if it takes 5 minutes to saturate with bubbles, all the gas coming out after that would not be trapped...
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 01:27:10 am
I agree if there's a lot of steam temp will rise.
Have ran it maybe 20-30 minute tests and havn't noticed a temp change.
Only measuring the outside with a IR thermometer.

The saturation point sounds good and you can see the stuff already going back into the tube sets.
It still makes me want to find a filtering method because it does happen.
Makes me wonder about a hi-voltage static filtering device that Meyer used.

Will work on one step at a time.

Also that speed control that Askmehhow pointed out may have possibilities. Very affordable. 
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 04:37:09 am
I think the foam is a good thing! It's possible that when the bubbles are circulated back though the tubes the gases may be ionized. It takes about 20Kv to ionize oxygen but, on the other hand, hydrogen can be easily ionized around 12-15V. I have no real proof this is what may be happening as the bubbles recirculate through the cell until I find an ion detector for an actual measurement of some sort. Also, pressure may have a role in the overall process. Thank you for the frequency measurements!
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 10:06:12 am
Steve you say all the voltage above 2volts is making steam?
Then all the foam is totally relateable to steam?

If so I do not understand why the steam is in small bubble form.?
That foam is like an entrapment of a combination of process, steam, and hydroxyl.

Maybe I should try to get the pump connected and check but I think there's plenty of hydroxyl locked into those bubbles.
Will have to work on some connections to pump in and or out in the near future to learn about this foam stuff more.
Its a parasite and everyone using multiple tubes has ran into it, I'm sure.
(Maybe a good test would be to connect the tubes in series?).

Many things would not make sense if its all steam, why are people making hi-voltage alternators for tube sets.
Its not all steam! (Needs to be looked into some more).

Steam or watervapour.
Thats all you get above 2V.
Dont forget....you do electrolysis and nothing else, so all the laws for that proces count.
The funny thing with wfc's is that if you apply a higher voltage, your wfc will pull more amps and thats good. But your efficiency will drop dramatically, because all volts above 2v create watervapour/steam.
At the end, you will have a mix of HHO and H2O. Its burnable, but not comparable with a wfc who is doing electrolysis between the 1.5 and 2.5V per cell.

Because you work with electrodes in a BIG bucket of water, the temp will not rise very quickly. The heat is consumed by the water reservoir.
I had the same foam, and if you burn that foam, you will get a big bang, because of the hydrogen, which is trapped in there.

About Bubz point, i had 3KV across my HHO gas and i didnt see any change in flame color, height or temp.
So, what make you think you can ionize hydrogen at 12V and what would you expect as results?
Just curious... ;)


Steve








Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 16:14:49 pm
What your calling foam is actually hydroxy gas.I wouldn't call it foam.Foam would be what shows up on top of the water.If your talking about the white tiny bubbles in the water,then thats hydroxy,and thats normal.The scum that builds up on top of the water would be considered foam.
Don
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 20:10:02 pm
Seems to me out of the hundreds perhaps thousands of experimenters of this early tube set-up had run into the tiny white bubbles and there are no posts anywhere suggesting processing or reprocessing to further this.

The tiny bubbles are contained in sticky water surface tensions that have properties. Minerals, chlorides, florides or whatever.
Also it appears that they are split but not split to freedom meaning they wan't to restabilize again.
Like they the tiny bubbles are in a stage between hydroxyl and water and maybe all they need is that little push of completion.

Just a tiny bit more to go, or they are in a state of too many electrons, mass stabilization process caught up in the inbetween.
At the point of split or crack the oxygen has realeased the h2 and the electrons are being pretty fussy trying to restabilize and maybe the tiny bubble stuff is a make up of various oxygen hydrogen stages. Which it is.
Has to be part of a natural process.

I would love to focus some energy on how to deal with those stages of process.
Maybe step 2 might be removal of electrons as suggested by Meyer.

Don't know until its tried.

 
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 20, 2010, 23:19:09 pm
if you go to "resonant action" where particle impact is brought on by charged particles subject to voltage attenuation, the gasses will be jet propelled out of the resonant cavity and out of the water... would solve that problem...
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 01:22:48 am
You know Don your probably right.
Still working on that part.

If I saw it I probably would not know anyway because I don't know what it is. (Yet).
Maybe one day we'll stumble on to it.
Got to keep picking away at all those variables, and keep reading.

Meanwhile I'm working on what I can with this tube set to keep pushing hopefully in a positive direction.

These tubes may have to be more tuned in. Meaning the individual capacitance of each tube set when built should have been matched. The weight of each tube could be matched so each is the same mass in each set.
Many things could have been better prepared.
Now I should match each with its own coil to try to fix my mistakes which I think is possible.

If done properly from the start this may have been a lot easier.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 01:40:39 am
Hi JohnD,
Hows it coming along?
Have you taken any more measurements of your system.
I know you said you had 1.5a on rotor.
But also can you take a current reading of the secondary side?
How many diodes are you using 3 or 6?

Lots of questions!
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 13:14:29 pm
Hi JohnD,
Hows it coming along?
Have you taken any more measurements of your system.
I know you said you had 1.5a on rotor.
But also can you take a current reading of the secondary side?
How many diodes are you using 3 or 6?

Lots of questions!

Hello Komtek , ive just done some more tests . On full tilt this time it peaked at about 1.8 amps going into the rotor and about 4.5 amps out . I said before that i was getting about 100v out but that was with distilled water . Im using spring water now and the volts out  has droped to 25 v .
Here's the scope on the output with no pulse :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4375712552/

And here's what looks like the step charging effect with the rotor pulsed :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4374964543/in/photostream/

Ive done another video clip thats a bit clearer too :

John

Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 13:18:34 pm
Oh yeah ....... and using a 3 phase bridge rectifyer .
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 17:59:08 pm
John, I just love the Lawton type enclosure how it blends together.
I'm interested in the fine details of the complete build.
You have done a exceptional replication job.

Saw those chokes you put inside the alternator is that a standard 100 turn wind and on what core and material wire size?
Do you mind with details?
Can we email or PM?
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 19:30:57 pm
Chokes? I didn't see any chokes. Do you still get the step charge effect without the chokes? Great stuff!
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 20:38:17 pm
Yes looking through the site where JohnD posted he has several pictures.
You see the chokes. Great idea JohnD!
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 20:41:57 pm
if im not mistaken john, you said you wound your alternator like kevin west? if so you only have a rewound 3 phase alternator just providing higher voltage whith no amp restriction corret?.. can you give some specks on the wind and wire size?

if this is true then i cant wait to see what happens with a 3 phase wound like what me and donald are working on.  the way i see it when you incorporate the bifilars into the alternator is you end up with a alternator that gets 3 times the aid each loop since you get the aid of neg choke, pos choke and secondary in each cavity per phase since electrons are all traveling in the same direction due to them being wound where current all goes one way and you will also a capacitance effect occuring in the stators bifilars..  this will allow the charge to capacitiate in the wires and give it a form of resistance stronger then a capacitor when it goes to discharge since the opposite charges do not have a gap separating them from discharge (they are in wires right next to each other giving them a stronger electromagnetic couple then a cap provides)and i also think that stan may of had an exterior choke hooked to the altenator to increase resistance and up voltage even higher.. not sure on that but will experiment soon..

check out kevin west video where he hooks his hv alternator to a microwave cap and to a tube cell,,  hes getting big buble output from it..  i think if kevin has a microwave core that had bifilars of same length instead of using thr primar on one side of the cell and the secondary on the other he would see even more production..

goto 6:20 seconds to watch the single tubes output
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 21:12:03 pm
if im not mistaken john, you said you wound your alternator like kevin west? if so you only have a rewound 3 phase alternator just providing higher voltage whith no amp restriction corret?.. can you give some specks on the wind and wire size?

if this is true then i cant wait to see what happens with a 3 phase wound like what me and donald are working on.  the way i see it when you incorporate the bifilars into the alternator is you end up with a alternator that gets 3 times the aid each loop since you get the aid of neg choke, pos choke and secondary in each cavity per phase since electrons are all traveling in the same direction due to them being wound where current all goes one way and you will also a capacitance effect occuring in the stators bifilars..  this will allow the charge to capacitiate in the wires and give it a form of resistance stronger then a capacitor when it goes to discharge since the opposite charges do not have a gap separating them from discharge (they are in wires right next to each other giving them a stronger electromagnetic couple then a cap provides)and i also think that stan may of had an exterior choke hooked to the altenator to increase resistance and up voltage even higher.. not sure on that but will experiment soon..

check out kevin west video where he hooks his hv alternator to a microwave cap and to a tube cell,,  hes getting big buble output from it..  i think if kevin has a microwave core that had bifilars of same length instead of using thr primar on one side of the cell and the secondary on the other he would see even more production..

goto 6:20 seconds to watch the single tubes output

Hello outlawstc , yeah its just a high voltage alternator like Kevins , 27 awg 47 winds per loop . Ive got a small bilfilar inductor (externaly ) but doesnt seem to make much difference . I need more wire to make a bigger one .
I was following the thread about incorporating the bifilars into the alternator , really keen to see the results . I would like to try it myself .
Ive tried the microwave transformer like in Kevins blog but im not getting enough volts now to see any change . I'll condition the tubes and add heat shrink around the outer tubes next week , hopefully this will help with the volt drop .
John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 21:22:40 pm
Yes looking through the site where JohnD posted he has several pictures.
You see the chokes. Great idea JohnD!

That was just a test with the internal chokes ( it didnt work) . I think it really needs to be like outlawstc and donald are working on . It makes more sense to have it wired that way . A bit tricky to do though me thinks . I need to get another alternator to have a bash at it ...... My wife will be pleased hehe .

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 21, 2010, 23:53:46 pm
Hi JohnD,
Hows it coming along?
Have you taken any more measurements of your system.
I know you said you had 1.5a on rotor.
But also can you take a current reading of the secondary side?
How many diodes are you using 3 or 6?

Lots of questions!

Hello Komtek , ive just done some more tests . On full tilt this time it peaked at about 1.8 amps going into the rotor and about 4.5 amps out . I said before that i was getting about 100v out but that was with distilled water . Im using spring water now and the volts out  has droped to 25 v .
Here's the scope on the output with no pulse :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4375712552/

And here's what looks like the step charging effect with the rotor pulsed :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4374964543/in/photostream/

Ive done another video clip thats a bit clearer too :

John

Hi John,

Nice pics and vids!
Can you tell us how much power the electromotor is consuming which is driving your alternator?

Steve


Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 00:28:11 am
Hello steve , its a 1.5 Kw which is 2 HP (1500 Watts) single phase motor so its quite a bit . I read in the paperwork that its about 8 amps @ full load .

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 00:57:16 am
John, I just love the Lawton type enclosure how it blends together.
I'm interested in the fine details of the complete build.
You have done a exceptional replication job.

Saw those chokes you put inside the alternator is that a standard 100 turn wind and on what core and material wire size?
Do you mind with details?
Can we email or PM?

Ive sent you my email address
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 01:32:00 am
Hello steve , its a 1.5 Kw which is 2 HP (1500 Watts) single phase motor so its quite a bit . I read in the paperwork that its about 8 amps @ full load .

John

Yeah thats the issue with this , it was designed to be a fuel saver add on thats ran with your petrol enginer , maybe you could switch halfway after getting it running right if you had all the gas processor tech to go along , never will it be overall OU even if it was resonating and producing extra gas .

You could use that much power and a cooling system and produce 15 LPM with some parralel car batteries plain electrolysis .

In the industry we never use single phase , its a complicated and costly device to maintain and has less torque and speed for the same amount of energy than 3 phase . I would suggest to find a 3 phase motor with some big gears and a make yourself a 120 volt high amp DC powersupply or some batteries and buy a 3 phase speed control driver pwm . You will save about half the wattage this way and you will get higher torque and speed and be able to reach higher frequencies , you cant experiment properly without a speed control driver , that thing is a must . These are common in the industry and usually cost about 150$ for a nice driver .

I am currently looking into this , I believe can switch my oscillator into a 3 phase pwm driver with 9 extra components and a pcb for all those and mosfet drivers not ring too much .

Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 02:47:21 am
I got some thoughts worth considering once its substanciated on the secondary power requirements.

Let me explain a little:
Right now I get 15 and less amps on the secondary.
The o,scope says I am applying 10vrms.
That suggests to me I am using 15a @ 10vrms = 150 watts power.
Less than 1/4HP.
So a fractional motor can be used in the end using less power requirements just to turn the altenator.
For right now experimantal situation its just fine to use an overbearing motor.
The more I play with this I can see the power requirement going down and efficiency slightly rising.

I agree with Don and Outlaw on that wind method very hybrid type and seems downright that it has to be efficient.
I can tell just by the basic method I did that this cut current by half from my last years experiments and production appears the same if not better.
Thats a huge jump in the right direction.
Also I am at a point of its not just automobiles were talking about this is fuel and can be used for many things.

I'm dreaming a little but could be reality soon, that my setup running through a manifold with small outlet tips pointing to the bottom of a several cast iron small saucers heating them red hot with a grill above and I cook me a steak on that bad boy.
Its not out of sight to do this.

Now use the same idea and make a heating manifold and box heat exchanger and power some small 12v fans for circulation.
Not to far out of sight.

Hyroxyl torch, very easy!

There are probably countless other uses that cannot be discounted for this tube method.
For me to feel any accomplishment this tube set must produce at least one of these methods. Don't think mine is automobile set-up at all.

Now with all new informations you see ammonia being mentioned which makes 100% sense.
That is the real start of the revolution.
Next step beyond the cell.
Cell can go further for processing real easy also which is what I'm working too.
But processing to go to the next step is: air mixed with HHO and creating ammonia NH3.
Too make a small test you already have the HHO now you need a basic ionizer on the air and mix the HHO into the air after the ionizer and maybe also install some photon source and you have a small test apparatus.
Do it on a small scale to test.

This has been strongly on my mind but have to finish some old experimental stuff first.
The most efficient alternator wind is on top of my list and don't know whats holding up Don and Outlaw but hope they find the time here real soon as I'm itching to hear a result and have a feeling its going to be good.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 04:28:11 am
heres whats on my mind and where im at with my rotary vic project.. i ran out of wire when i was winding my coils and had to wait for some work to get more wire. yesterday i ordered some double sided copper clad for my diode board, some insulating paper, and some more wire..  i am using 27 gauge and will have 30 winds secondary and 30 winds for each bifilars..  this will give me a total of 90 per cavity.. i have a big alternator like stans and i am hopping that 90 total will not be to much...

john, did u have a hard time getting 47 in the cavity or did you find you still had room? i would rather take the time to reduce the winds now rather then later if i need to...
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 09:08:17 am
heres whats on my mind and where im at with my rotary vic project.. i ran out of wire when i was winding my coils and had to wait for some work to get more wire. yesterday i ordered some double sided copper clad for my diode board, some insulating paper, and some more wire..  i am using 27 gauge and will have 30 winds secondary and 30 winds for each bifilars..  this will give me a total of 90 per cavity.. i have a big alternator like stans and i am hopping that 90 total will not be to much...

john, did u have a hard time getting 47 in the cavity or did you find you still had room? i would rather take the time to reduce the winds now rather then later if i need to...

Definately had room for more , but obviously it depends on the stator . You need to be able to fit 2 loops in one channel the way Kevin does it (trailing edge of last loop and leading edge of next loop) .
John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2010, 22:41:13 pm
Hello steve , its a 1.5 Kw which is 2 HP (1500 Watts) single phase motor so its quite a bit . I read in the paperwork that its about 8 amps @ full load .

John

Yeah thats the issue with this , it was designed to be a fuel saver add on thats ran with your petrol enginer , maybe you could switch halfway after getting it running right if you had all the gas processor tech to go along , never will it be overall OU even if it was resonating and producing extra gas .

You could use that much power and a cooling system and produce 15 LPM with some parralel car batteries plain electrolysis .

In the industry we never use single phase , its a complicated and costly device to maintain and has less torque and speed for the same amount of energy than 3 phase . I would suggest to find a 3 phase motor with some big gears and a make yourself a 120 volt high amp DC powersupply or some batteries and buy a 3 phase speed control driver pwm . You will save about half the wattage this way and you will get higher torque and speed and be able to reach higher frequencies , you cant experiment properly without a speed control driver , that thing is a must . These are common in the industry and usually cost about 150$ for a nice driver .

I am currently looking into this , I believe can switch my oscillator into a 3 phase pwm driver with 9 extra components and a pcb for all those and mosfet drivers not ring too much .

The motor is purely for testing purposes , i will be using the setup on a car . I know single phase motors are not the best . There is a way of using a three phase motor on a single phase using caps .... its called rotor verter , i havent dug deep into it but looks easy enough :
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2010, 02:42:43 am
Dont dig deeper than you already have , that thing is a scam

Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2010, 09:24:43 am
Dont dig deeper than you already have , that thing is a scam

Thanks Dankie , there is a hell of a lot of disinfo on the net ey .

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2010, 15:59:15 pm

The motor is purely for testing purposes , i will be using the setup on a car . I know single phase motors are not the best . There is a way of using a three phase motor on a single phase using caps ....

You can use a one phase freq regulator to a three phase motor like I've used in my setup:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1074.0.html
Works great and uses less energy because its only using that much energy to keep the rpms stable.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2010, 21:05:15 pm

You can use a one phase freq regulator to a three phase motor like I've used in my setup:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1074.0.html
Works great and uses less energy because its only using that much energy to keep the rpms stable.

Looks interesting , can you buy them off the shelf ?
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 24, 2010, 17:02:04 pm

You can use a one phase freq regulator to a three phase motor like I've used in my setup:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1074.0.html
Works great and uses less energy because its only using that much energy to keep the rpms stable.

Looks interesting , can you buy them off the shelf ?

Yes! I use a "Schneider Electric Altivar 12"   ATV12HU15M2

http://www.schneider-electric.ch/custom/upload/docs/document/DIA2ED1080901EN_ATV12_pano.pdf (http://www.schneider-electric.ch/custom/upload/docs/document/DIA2ED1080901EN_ATV12_pano.pdf)

http://www.schneider-electric.com/sites/corporate/en/products-services/automation-control/products-offer/range-presentation.page?c_filepath=/templatedata/Offer_Presentation/3_Range_Datasheet/data/en/shared/automation_and_control/altivar_12.xml (http://www.schneider-electric.com/sites/corporate/en/products-services/automation-control/products-offer/range-presentation.page?c_filepath=/templatedata/Offer_Presentation/3_Range_Datasheet/data/en/shared/automation_and_control/altivar_12.xml)

See my version: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1074.0;attach=4236 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1074.0;attach=4236)
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 24, 2010, 20:59:06 pm
I think i need to invest in one of those in the near future  :)
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2010, 16:41:21 pm
Well ive done a few more tests but they have been slightly disapointing . The first was a lpm test which was only about a 1/4 lpm  :( . Then i got some tubes and covered 2 with heat shrink insulation and 2 without ..... The tubes without the heatshrink seemed to produce more ! The last test was puting a big bifilar choke between the alternator and the cell . This raised the voltage from 25 v to 100 v ish but produced less gas ....... sigh ......

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 03, 2010, 19:24:32 pm
Johnd I think you did well with insulating the tubes, as this will have less leakage from the tube to the water bath and isolate the signal much more into the tube-set.
You would figure the raised voltage potentials would create a better effect on the water molecules elongation.
Stronger effect more seperations.?
The only thing you did not cover was possibly a change in frequency, change in motor speed!
This may effect the point of resonance. Thinking that point would produce more gas, would be nice. (I don't know).
You have the same LPM I have measured. (funny as it seems like it has a much higher potential volume with all that bubbling going on).

Steve suggested using KOH mix. Distilled and KOH, or Naoh. Potasium or sodium hydroxides.
Its possible that all those tiny bubbles will escape with ease instead of saturating the water-bath.
Again I'm hesitant to do this because of any corrosion that may happen.
I suggest its worth one time test try and measure the LPM difference.
Steve might know a mixture and somewhere I hear 28% whatever that means?

That also leads to the area that all the tiny bubbles locked in the water bath and how to get the bath to release these.
I added a photon device for starters but the bubbles are still in the bath.
Its possible the photons had some other effect. 
Hoping it is strengthening the fuel by possibly having the electron bands further out from the nucleous.
Each atom should have a stronger charge to release when the fual is fired.
Thats my guess on adding photon bombardment into the cell.

The only other method related to Meyer was a static filter he had on a 3-24 3-25 cell.
Thinking that it was not only a static filter but if it effected the static charge on the water molecule in a positive fashion as to aid to the release of these tiny bubbles would be beneficial.
Again I have not tested this and I am not trying to be misleading.
For those bubbles to be sticking in the water bath thay are attracted to the charge the water currently has.
Water is a dipole (neutral), but if it had taken on a positive static charge and the gases had a positive static charge when they leave the tubes those bubbles would not stick in the water.

If anyone has tested a hi-voltage static field on a cell with static filter as described can you post the effect it has on the tiny locked bubbles in the water bath.

That static filter has to have an effect on the water wouldn't you think.
Surely would love to see the bubble activity leave the cell without adding chemicals.

Let me add a couple of other science facts that deal with health but may be of importance:
Check youtube for ionized water.
You find that standard water comes in water clusters that consist of 12-16 component type molecular cluster.
Ionized water changes the cluster arrangement to roughly half 6-8 type molecular cluster and also on top of that leaves much more free hydroxyl's.
The less clustering health wise can penetrate the body cells deeper with ease and can help deal with acidic wastes of the body and promote a healthy condition.
Fact that ionized and alkalinity produces more single hydroxyls, is this a good thing in a cell? (I think so).
Might very well be an answer to the over saturated standard water problem in cells without the use of rash chemicals like koh and naoh.

(This may be all sales hype for ionized water and micro-clusters and not substanciated by scientific fact).
Have to check for yourself then decide.

I'm only guessing and thinking out loud, not suggesting anything.
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 04, 2010, 20:08:17 pm
was you using red led's with your cell ?
Dynodon mentioned water was pumped through the resonant cavity . I wonder if this helped or if it was just to take the milky water to the plugs ?
Whatever we do though , 1/4 lpm is no where near enough production . I might just bite the bullet and rewire my stator like donald and outlaw .

John
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 04, 2010, 21:48:02 pm
John, looking around at the PDF's and references of photons oxygen and hydrogen there are several points of absorption.

I is noted in many of the documents absorption in a certain frequency kicks the electron further out meaning it gets to another N-band further from the nucleous. Which kind of tells you that nucleous took on a charge and because of that pushed the electron out further.
Now its noted that if the process is done right it can absorb the right wavelength and kick the electron even further. Then again and over again if you have figured the wavelengths properly. (for oxygen there are several wavelengths in the visual spectrum). Hydrogen too but not as much as oxygen.

Thats a lot of science, so when I looked at this process and said to myself what if I have a photon source that instead of being focused into one wavelength was a spread spectrum source. So it had multi-wavelength output.
Over time that led me to flash bulbs, and arc-lamp type sources.
Reading up on a xenon gas arc-lamp it has a huge spectrum spread, pretty low in UV band too, but not at the low hydrogen absorption point but will cover many details or the spectrum spread.
I chose xenon flash to experiment with and one big reason being the dollar amount.
Although I have collected and saved many xenon short arc-lamps I decided a xenon gas flash lamp will have multi-spectrum photon frequencys.
A short-arc lamp can cost $100 and up per piece. A xenon flash maybe $5 and up.
Xenon flash is used in photography because it has a wide spectrum and the picture would come out nice. If you used a single spectrum light source you would end up with a picture with that reflected color band for a back light.

There are several ways to use a WFC and pumping water through the cell can be pretty interesting just like Kevin West does. Did you notice his new 7 pair cell looks real nice.
Still you have tiny bubble water or milky water.
Its not changing anything whether the milky stuff is in a cell or another container or sprayed and misted its still milky and still water attached to bubbles because unlike charges attract.
Thats the problem no-one has dealt with to overcome. They just don't see it the way I am seeing it. People say oh its a good thing and its good to let it reprocess through the cell again. (didn't change anything).
Well I'm telling you that it doesn't work that way for me because thats not the answer I'm looking for.

If I'm working with old cell technology then lets bring up the ante some and find out what it takes to remove the milky bubbles into the gas form they should be.
So it made me wonder why KOH and Naoh allowed the water to release the bubbles that much easier. Now you have metallic substance potassium or sodium and a high alkalinity and easy current flow through the water because of the metallic substances.
This may be the reason why the water easily takes a positive static charge and the gas made takes a positive static charge and 2 like charges repel each other its fundamental, and something to do with alkalinity I think.

So that now leads me to ionization of water which in theory should produce the same effect as using chemicals.
Eventually I will build the few parts to get this tested, I have convinced myself that this theory is at the worst partially correct if not hitting the nail on the head.
Ionization of water also changes the clustering structure of water (questionable). Its a step process and a good one to keep working the molecules down further and splitting them up to smaller pieces until eventually its all split.
Isn't that the idea of this whole ordeal?
Then use the product in with many different energy and fuel processes.

   
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2010, 02:15:04 am
Still wanna get rid of those bubbles eh? Maybe you would like to try ultrasonics?


Bubz
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 05, 2010, 05:01:20 am
Its worth a try I'll figure something out, have no room on the bottom but there is a serperation plate that I could easily mount the fogger inside.

Looking into water ionizers and appears pretty easy to make a seperator.
A unit that will seperate acidic from alkaline.
Worth trying in a cell and the alkaline is great for human consumption, supposed to taste like rainwater.
The concentrations of hydrogen change between the 2. Also the fact that the water changes to micro-clusters sound good too.
Another step in breaking it all down.

More reading on the subject of micro-clusters shows that its bunk bogus hype non-substanciated or un-noteworthy claims not by reputable science industry.
Most likely a way to get you to spend dollars for their device.  A sales pitch.
Oh well!

Alkaline water seems promising in many ways. The calcium oxide build up on cells, Ravi, Dave Lawton.
This is a alkaline build-up.
Naoh and Koh alkaline solutions produce plenty of fuel but consume much current and the same with other salts.
They are all alkaline and many other minerals are.

Still pondering methods of water polarity charge.

 
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 06, 2010, 15:10:30 pm
Still wanna get rid of those bubbles eh? Maybe you would like to try ultrasonics?


Bubz

Now that is interesting !!! Thanks for the link bubz
Title: Re: Finaly getting results
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 13:06:47 pm
ultrasounds? ::) ;)