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Projects by members => Projects by members => Webmug => Topic started by: webmug on January 19, 2010, 18:46:42 pm

Title: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2010, 18:46:42 pm
This thread is created for the Resonance WFC setup

First read the attached patent:
WO1992007861A1   CONTROL AND DRIVER CIRCUITS FOR A HYDROGEN GAS FUEL PRODUCING CELL

Thoughts and experimentation, how to make a real Resonance WFC (resonance cavity)

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 20, 2010, 14:57:03 pm
Here is one of my thoughts from a few weeks ago, since this design I have come up with several changes to improve it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/DelrinWFC.jpg)

I'll be building something like this eventually...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 20, 2010, 22:52:46 pm
@donaldwfc
Nice to read you are thinking about a real Meyer cell design too!

I haven't figure it out how to make a good base for this cell where/how the plate connections are put. Water entry below the cell...

I have ordered Delrin for the cavity and inner rod. This cell will be small in size, what Stan was talking about as a typical size. Frequency is altered when bigger sized.

If we want to replicate the resonance cell we must isolate the outer plate, when not, the cell will leak voltage to the surrounding water (dielectric).

I still don't know what Stan means in the patent, about the resonance frequency. He is talking about two. 1. pulse (resonance) 2. gate (resonance)
1. pulse frequency for Lcr resonance.
2. gate frequency is used to separate the water molecules.
I think this is when resonance is occurring between the plates described as voltage waveguide...

Well, I first want to make the correct cell, then match the VIC to the cell. I think this is the right approach, just what Dynodon already said in other threads on this forum.

Still have not seen this type of cell replicated by other researchers, only that they condition the tubes...
When two tubes are used there is always voltage leakage at the outer and inner tube top and bottom. Then this is a shorted capacitor, how do you charge a shorted capacitor???

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 00:53:23 am
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 04:45:20 am
your question on not knowing what resonance he is talking about...
What if he was talking about harmonic resonance??? your already causing the tubes to vibrate... maybe that is what the "grooves" were cut in the pipes for...
On the other note the grooves could simply be there for one of his many "add in's" to confuse anyone trying to replicate his work.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 04:53:48 am
your question on not knowing what resonance he is talking about...
What if he was talking about harmonic resonance??? your already causing the tubes to vibrate... maybe that is what the "grooves" were cut in the pipes for...
On the other note the grooves could simply be there for one of his many "add in's" to confuse anyone trying to replicate his work.

That shape probably opens up the exit point in an advantageous manner for the gas to exit , Who can imagine he crazy waves at that end point , echoing criss crossing etc ... It might change the dampening factor of those tubes , if they are to vibrate physically there wil be a resonance and a dampening  .

This is not something you can answer without being there and compare the two.

As for the comments of Outlaw , the gating and the pulsing frequency could be working in tandem . I have tought of that before myself . Is that what you were trying to communicate outlaw ?

That pulse train might appear as its own frequency . Quite similar to amplitude modulation but easier to accomplish . But that would be very cryptic since Stan always says how he controls gas volume by getting more gate time .

Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 09:04:02 am
JUST A THOUGHT ON THE NOTCHED TUBES, WITH A REGULAR CAPACITOR THE PLATES NEED TO BE MATCHED OR ARCHING THROUGH THE DIALECTIC OCCURS. STAN MAY HAVE BEEN MATCHING THE VOLTAGES BETWEEN THE TUBES TO  MAINTAIN  HIGH FIELD STRENGTH BEFORE A CONTROLLED  DISCHARGE.......JUST A THOUGHT
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 11:26:29 am
Have you guy's came to realize how to make the tubes actually vibrate yet?

Here's a Equation that only pertains to air flow, "Not Water."

CFM = Area * Velocity

Take for example a square duct. Say the duct is 4" x 4" and has an area of 16 square inches. 16"
To Use such a formula, Area Inches must be converted to Area Feet. Here is the Equation.

16" / 144 = 0.11111111111111111111111111111111 Cubit feet

Now that we Have the Area in feet, we can now use the equation mentioned like so.


CFM = Area * Velocity
0.11111111111111111111111111111111 * 700 = 77.7 CFM

This Equation Is based on 100 Foot of Duct, Not 8 or 14 foot.

The Point is, If the Velocity Gets to high then things tend to "Vibrate." And it can get violent and cause all sorta problems! They're Called Velocity Limits.

I have also other Equations, For Example... Say you wanted a velocity of X with an 8" tall tube. Well then what should the CFM be threw the tube to cause such velocity to happen?

Things also tend to have Velocity Limits, When constructing certain devices it has to be taken under consideration, Or else violent vibrations may go into affect.

If in your mind, you could take a moment to imagine a short tube with water being forced threw it, Would it then be possible for the tube to vibrate? Imagine a micro tube, and a micro vibration. All though The Equations aren't linked with water flowing threw a tube they can be, and they probably already have been.

The Equations that I know is Equations that I Created, I'm not saying they're not out there, They can be found if you know how to read very techniqal Equations, With symbols that will blow your mind. For me, I created my own rather than having to deal with their unknown symbols. My Equations are correct and Blunt.

My Current Equations for reverse engineering the above is digitaly stored, and at this time I cant seem to access them. I'll post if needed. What equations am I speaking of?

Example; Build me a duct that will have an output of 400 CFM with an Velocity of 700. This Duct Has to be 8 Foot in length. I have equations for that.

You could very well incorporate this into the wfc. One could take these and learn the water formulas, You could learn allot about vibrating tubes when water flows threw them.

What you Want to know, You want to know the Velocity Limit of a Particular Tube, You want to Exceed that limit to cause the tube to go into vibration.

Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 12:30:27 pm
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?
First I want to make it simple, just one design. Two identical cavities but half sized clued on top of each other.
Thus water input at the bottom and gas output at the top of the delrin cavity.
Important is that the tube and rod are isolated from the outside water bath. This cavity could be put into a vase...
I want to see if this cavity can preform as a capacitor with water as dielectric.

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

I read multiple times that the RVIC tubes-set is compared with a "Resonance Cavity Cell"
I think this is false. The RVIC tubes-set is not a resonance setup. Try it yourself to maintain resonance manually with a variable capacitor (remember the potential values, larger field more gas, less current)

The RVIC and the PLATE WFCs are only made to demonstrate the different process to plain electrolysis for getting patents.
Stan made big improvements to the used polarization method. This produced the resonance idea and from this ultimately the Injector system.

I think the so called Tube notching on top of the tubes for the RVIC setup are gas flow vents or something? Not resonance fine tune notch...don't see how a notch is made at the side of the outer tube in a cavity...I am open for other theories.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 14:11:53 pm
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

br,
webmug

Where did you read that again ?

Plz quote me this document .

What was that theory again warp of your efficient RVIC discovery that turned out to be not working apparently ?
 That old story of yours remember ? God dam you tried hard with that thing ... Dam ol Warp  ;)

That RVIC was car powered , or gas motor powered, not electric motor powered . Nobody is gonna turn an RVIC at more than 400 hz with a house current motor .

I made a superior power supply to test those 3 phase concepts that you can all purchase soon .

What was that theory again warp ?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 14:36:55 pm
Good stuff webmug

The RVIC setup may not be resonant, but it did run the dune buggy, so the merit is there. Also we don't know what is in the control box for the RVIC set up, so there is much to learn there as well.


back to the topic of the resonance wfc, the insulation is there to eliminate "voltage coupling" to water bath - not just current coupling... meaning you want the electric field from the tube to be contained in the delrin and focused in the cavity, the point being, I am under the impression that the delrin should be sufficiently thick, and that a thin casing my not prevent the so-called "voltage coupling" to the water bath. This may or my not be an important factor in the design of the cell, it won't stop you from reaching resonance.... but it is something that may be of value.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 14:56:36 pm
That picture I posted, those two parts would be made out of delrin with a 3" OD, there is a 1" hole for the outer tube 3" long, with this you can choose any gap you want by the thickness of the outer tube and then you can see the half inch holes for the longer 1/2" inner tube. So it will be a completely incased and insulated cell. I've made mental adjustments to my design to make it simpler, and to set it up for a water pump to force water through the bottom. Also a 3" OD acrylic tube will mount on the top of what is shown, for gas viewing, and then a simple delrin cap on top of that. For the electrical connections I'll just do it like Dynodon mentioned, a bolt that goes in and touches the side of each tube.

Have you seen Dynodon's Cell? It's a nice cell and a good example. When do you plan on having this cell running?

For the resonance part...Stan writes that the cavity can resonate at a multiple numbers of frequencies (harmonics) so there is not one.

br,
webmug

Where did you read that again ?

Plz quote me this document .
What I mean due contaminants in the water the frequency is not one. Stan calls this "harmonic effects". These are different frequencies (bandwidth).

"Because resonances of different waters, water volumes, and capacitor cells vary, the resonant scanning circuit of Figure 8 is useful. The scanning circuit o Figure 8 scans frequency from high to low to high repeating until a signal lock is determined. The ferromagnetic core of the voltage intensifier circuit transformer suppresses electron surge in an out-of-resonance condition of the fuel cell. In an example, the circuit scans at frequencies from 0 Hz to 10 KHz t 0 Hz. In water having contaminants in the range of 1 ppm to 20 ppm, a 20% variance in resonant frequency is encountered. Depending on water flow rate into fuel cell, the normal variance range is about 8-10%. For example, iron in well water affects the status of molecular disassociation. Also, at a resonant condition harmonic effects occur. In a typical operation of the cell with a representative water capacitor described below, at a frequency of about 5 KHz at unipolar pulses from 0 to 650 volts at a sensed resonant condition into the resonant cavity, conversion of about 5 gallons of water per hour into a fuel gas will occur on average. To increase the rate, multiple resonant cavities can be used and/or the surfaces of the water capacitor can be increased, however, the water capacitor cell is preferably small in scale. A typical water capacitor may be formed from a 0.5 inch in diameter stainless steel rod and a 0.75 inch inside diameter cylinder that together extend concentrically about 3.0 inches with respect to each other.

Shape and size of the resonant cavity may vary. Larger resonant cavities and higher rates of consumption of water in the conversion process require higher frequencies such as up to 50 KHz and above. The pulsing rate, to sustain such high rates of conversion must be correspondingly increased.

From the foregoing description of the preferred embodiment, other variations and modifications of the system disclosed will be evident to those of skill in the art. "

patent WO1992007861A1.pdf

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 15:28:03 pm
 It would be simpler to design a system that will turn a little pot nob no ? 20% is not far away ? How fast does tht lock need to be ? It aint fast with all those cmos chips thats 4 sure , that circuit needs an update for 74hc . IMO There is no resonance changing in a single pulse train burst , that circuit would never have the speed for that kind of rapid change  . Its more a long term thing is what I'm trying to say .

It seems like harmonics is more cause and effect , the resonance is always in a range of 20% frequency .
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 16:22:43 pm
It would be simpler to design a system that will turn a little pot nob no ? 20% is not far away ? How fast does tht lock need to be ? It aint fast with all those cmos chips thats 4 sure , that circuit needs an update for 74hc . IMO There is no resonance changing in a single pulse train burst , that circuit would never have the speed for that kind of rapid change  . Its more a long term thing is what I'm trying to say .

It seems like harmonics is more cause and effect , the resonance is always in a range of 20% frequency .
Yes, but Stan writes this as an example...
"From the foregoing description of the preferred embodiment, other variations and modifications of the system disclosed will be evident to those of skill in the art. "

Seriously, the electronics used are almost 20 years old, these can be better/faster build.
Didn't Stan made the circuits the KISS method?
A frequency generator with a POT is not a KISS method for keeping it in resonance, I don't want to adjust the thing all the time manually, when you have multiple cavity cells. 8)

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 16:50:03 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/4x3inchDelrinWFC.jpg)

New thought for a 4 tube cell. Then again the delrin thickness between tubes *might* be too thin for proper isolation and insulation.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2010, 22:59:15 pm
Capacitance of Concentric Cylinders

"where the capacitance per unit length is not a function of either the charge on the system or L itself. The only parameters that matter are the radii of the cylindrical shells. This should be expected because capacitance is a feature of a system's geometry and does not depend on applied charges or potentials."

http://www.davidpace.com/physics/em-topics/capacitance-cylinders.htm (http://www.davidpace.com/physics/em-topics/capacitance-cylinders.htm)

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1298.msg14419.html#msg14419 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1298.msg14419.html#msg14419)
Chapter 4 "quote":
There are actually two principal mechanisms by which electric fields can distort
the charge distribution of a dielectric atom or molecule: stretching and rotating.

What happens to a neutral atom when it is placed in an electric field E? Your first guess
might well be: "Absolutely nothing-since the atom is not charged, the field has no effect
on it." But that is incorrect. Although the atom as a whole is electrically neutral, there is a
positively charged core (the nucleus) and a negatively charged electron cloud surrounding
it. These two regions of charge within the atom are influenced by the field: the nucleus
is pushed in the direction of the field, and the electrons the opposite way. In principle, if
the field is large enough, it can pull the atom apart completely, "ionizing" it (the substance
then becomes a conductor). With less extreme fields, however, an equilibrium is soon
established, for if the center of the electron cloud does not coincide with the nucleus, these
positive and negative charges attract one another, and this holds the atoms together. The
two opposing forces-E pulling the electrons and nucleus apart, their mutual attraction
drawing them together-reach a balance, leaving the atom polarized, with plus charge
shifted slightly one way, and minus the other. The atom now has a tiny dipole moment
p, which points in the same direction as E. Typically, this induced dipole moment is
approximately proportional to the field (as long as the latter is not too strong):
p=aE. (4.1)
The constant of proportionality a is called atomic polarizability. Its value depends on the
detailed structure of the atom in question.

For molecules the situation is not quite so simple, because frequently they polarize
more readily in some directions than others.

Problem 4.1 A hydrogen atom (with the Bohr radius of half an angstrom) is situated between
two metal plates 1 mm apart, which are connected to opposite terminals of a 500 V battery.
What fraction of the atomic radius does the separation distance d amount to, roughly? Estimate
the voltage you would need with this apparatus to ionize the atom. [Use the value of alpha in Table
4.1. Moral: The displacements we're talking about are minute, even on an atomic scale.]

For H atom!!!
E = 500V
x = 1 10^-3
Atomic polarizabilities H = 0.667 -> table 4.1 (Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 78th ed.)

1 eV = 1.602 10^-19 C
1 debye = 3.33564 10^-30 Cm
p = dipole moment
E = electric field
E0 = 8.85 10^-12
R = bohr radius 1.0 10^-10
alpha = atomic polarizability

Problem 4.1
E =V/x =500 / 1 10^-3 =5 10^5
Table 4.1: alpha / 4 pi E0 =0.66 10^-30, so alpha = 4 pi (8.85 10^-12)(0.66 10^-30)= 7.34 10^-41
p =alpha E = e d => d =alpha E / e =(7.34 10^-41)(5 10^5)/(1.6 10^-19)=2.29 10^-16 m
d / R =(2.29 10^-16) / (0.5 10^-10) =14.6 10^-6

To ionize, say d = R. Then R = alpha E / e = alpha V / e x =>
V = R e x / alpha =(0.5 10^-10)(1.6 10^-19)(1 10^-3) / (7.34 10^-41) =1 10^8 V

So that's a lot of Volts for ionizing the H atom. When ionized, it becomes a conductor, so I think SM didn't ionize the water molecules. Only polarize the molecule (dipole moment point to the direction of the E field) thus rotating the molecule...

The dipole moment of water is 6.1 10^-30 Cm (polar molecule) but torque is N =  p E in a uniform field E. If the E field is non-uniform, so that F+ does not exactly balance F-, there will be a net force on the dipole, in addition to the torque. Of course, E must change rather abruptly for there to be significant variation in the space of one molecule.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2010, 13:55:51 pm
Voltage Dissociation of The Water Molecule

Placement of a pulse-voltage potential across the Excitor-Array (ER) while inhibiting or preventing electron flow from within the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (AA) causes the water molecule to separate into its component parts by, momentarily, pulling away orbital electrons from the water molecule, as illustrated in Figure (1-9). The stationary "positive" electrical voltage-field (EI) not only attracts the negative charged oxygen atom but also pulls away negative charged electrons from the water molecule. At the same time, the stationary "negative" electrical voltage field (E2) attracts the positive charged hydrogen atoms. Once the negative electrically charged electrons are dislodged from the water molecule, covalent bonding (sharing electrons) ceases to exist, switching-off or disrupting the electrical attraction force (qq') between the water molecule atoms. The liberated and moving atoms (having missing electrons) regain or capture the free floating electrons once applied voltage is switched-off during pulsing operations. The liberated and electrically stabilized atom having a net electrical charge of "zero" exit the water bath for hydrogen gas utilization. Dissociation of the water molecule by way of voltage stimulation is herein called 'The Electrical Polarization Process".

Subjecting or exposing the water molecule to even higher voltage levels causes the liberated atoms to go into a "state" of gas ionization. Each liberated atom taking-on its own "net" electrical charge. The ionized atoms along with free floating negative charged electrons are, now, deflected (pulsing electrical voltage fields of opposite polarity) through the Electrical Polarization Process … imparting or superimposing a second physical-force (particle-impact) unto the electrically charged water bath. Oscillation (back and forth movement) of electrically charged particles by way of voltage deflection is hereinafter called "Resonant Action", as illustrated in Figure (1-10). Attenuating and adjusting the "pulse-voltage-amplitude" with respect to the "pulse voltage frequency", now, produces hydrogen gas on demand while restricting amp flow.

Do we read for PULSE -> GATE frequency?

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2010, 19:45:21 pm
the gate acts as a switch, so yes, gating time = pulse time
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2010, 10:56:04 am
Calculate the capacitance of the resonance cell:
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpcapacitor/cylindrical_capacitor_equation.php (http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpcapacitor/cylindrical_capacitor_equation.php)
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html)

Note. This is an example!!!
Capacitance is changing due, temperature, pressure, water flow, gas production, water contaminations.
We should make a calculation for the used bandwidth, if we know/assume values.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2010, 16:56:54 pm
webmug,

check out this little program i found on the net like a year ago... it calculate the capacitance for you.. all you need to enter is outside dia  for the inner tube, inside dia for the outter tube, the gap in mm,
dielectric constant in pF/m, and the legnth of the tubes.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 04, 2010, 15:46:02 pm
Update, things are going slow... got my resonance cell materials: delrin, rod and tube.

@outlawstc
How is progress on your cell?

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 04, 2010, 17:01:28 pm
Nice to see webmug!

What kind of gap are you going for?
those are 3 inch tubes?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 05, 2010, 01:27:25 am
im still waiting on mine to be finished.. i had to meet up with my buddy and discuss the inlet and outlet of the tube... hes a busy man but he expects to have it done within this next week i believe...im having mine made where the inlet taps in from the side with a fitting so i can pump water into it. then the top is gonna have a bunch of holes drilled in it
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2010, 15:23:27 pm
Nice to see webmug!

What kind of gap are you going for?
those are 3 inch tubes?

Tube is 20mm; 120mm length; 1,5mm thick; 316L, rod is 13mm; 130mm length; 316L.
Delrin 35mm; 160mm length; white. Dielectric Strength:450 V/mil per ASTM D149.
Gap is 2mm.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2010, 17:45:25 pm
mm mean nothing to me :P
so I converted that to inches so I could understand

Tube
0.787" OD
4.724" Length
0.059" Thick
0.728" ID
Rod
0.512" OD
5.118" Length
Delrin
1.378" OD
6.299" Length
0.296" Thick (w/ hole)
133200 Volts Dielectric Strength

Gap
0.108" or 2.75 mm
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2010, 19:59:13 pm
A little update from me...

I have a new idea for the resonance WFC.

I'm thinking to use electrostatic loudspeaker (ESL) transformers. The transformer is a audio step-up HV transformer and is connected behind a audio amplifier.

The resonance WFC which I'm building has a nano Farad capacitance, so a choke in the mH range to get the LC into resonance in the audio range (300-20.000Hz) is necessary.
The diode is acting like a frequency doubler.
The HV from a ESL transformer is about 1:125 (kV) and has mA currents.

A nice part is that I can use software on a PC/MAC to generate a sinus waveform and adjust the WFC into resonance.

opensource:
http://rbytes.net/software/sinegen-review/
http://static.rbytes.net/files/s/i/n/sinegen/SineGen.zip

Let me know what you guys think.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2010, 21:41:16 pm
Those are too expensive , the ESL 's , specially the toroidal .

I say these high frequency xformers must be made at home , price are too much .

My new power amp uses transformers of audio type , it can be used foir w/e else and all can be used backwards and forwards ...

But I believe I saw a 50:1 esl EI type for about 50$ .




Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2010, 22:10:00 pm
did you build your cell yet? any gas?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2010, 23:31:20 pm
did you build your cell yet? any gas?

No Donald I did not build my cell , Perhaps we can trade services to make a cell for me , I will be about ready to test .

I am still not sure How a proper mounting point that can be a bit moveable should be made , maybe you have some ideas .
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2010, 04:14:25 am
Here is the sine wave gen I use , this method is rock solid and always gives a 100% pure sine , it will never drift if your pot is not total crap . I estimate its cost @ around 8$ when purchasing single components .

I basicly dont like the idea os having a sound card producing a sine wave , bad for noise , ground plane  have to extend it with a wire .

As for my amplifying stage I cannot reveal it , top secret /: , too much research went into it .

Noticed mistake : the clock and input are inverted , the 74hc4060 feeds the input and clock is from ltc .
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2010, 05:16:05 am
why do you need a sine wave? stan uses square waves with a pll

at some point this summer i'll build some resonant cells, starting off i'll do more tests with my current cell, but when i build the resonant one i could build another one if you wanted...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2010, 05:53:39 am
Stan uses a square wave *in resonance* , its like if you had a resonant filter .

Thus a sine wave .

I dont know why a sine wave should be used , its just cool I guess .

Transformers love sine waves . You cant run a television set witha  square wave inverter , it gives glitches , you cant run a motor with square AC , it loves the pregression of the sine . Radio waves dont penetrate matter with square AC , the best penetrator is the sine ...

I just some compkicated electrical physics physics , fast rise + impedance mismatch = reflexion .


Stan was a radar techician remember and he  , he would be a master at these short pulses pulses , I bet he could solve these issues that we can barely understand , it really is a specialised field . Thats what happens with radars, they use square cause it bounces bakc instantly .

 if you physically bend the coax cable not smoothly enough you get reflecion , bends on coax are real smooth for minimal reflection , electricity is more than just flow of current etc ,..




Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 09, 2010, 15:02:56 pm
Update:

The dimensions of my resonance cell I have build...

free space permittivity = ?0 = 8.85 pF/m
permittivity (?)    =    708     picofarad/meter     =    7.08E-10     farad/meter
length (l)    =    120     millimeter     =    0.12     meter = 4,72 inch
outer conductor diameter (b)    =    17     millimeter     =    0.017     meter = 0,67 inch
inner conductor diameter (a)    =    12.7     millimeter     =    0.0127     meter = 0.50 inch
Gap is 2.15 millimeter = 0.085 inch
 
Total calculated capacitance (C)     =     1.8305852039534E-9     farad  = 1.83nF
Got strange measurements when I used a LCR-meter! It measures 573uF in H2O tap water!
Can measurements be done using LCR-meters on a WFC? Also the resistance is not constant! Can we use the calculated values or the measured ones?

You can see my HV transformer and my Amplifier I want to use for the resonance cell. The Amplifier delivers 50Watt per channel 20V Vpp AC signal, so I can use 10 Vpp DC as a pulse signal going into the HV tansformer. (20-20kHz) The HV transformer is an ESL one step-up 1:125. Input resistance on the primary is 1ohm and sec 3k Ohms (input frequency dependent).

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 09, 2010, 15:32:52 pm
nice work, i read that the C meter will read the impedance of the wfc, not specifically the C, JLN shows a difference between his calculated and measured too, and he actually found resonance, apparently, maybe his results would be worth another read for you at this stage in the game, maybe get some more ideas.

Also, I'd be interested to see if you can reproduce mine and warps results on your delrin cell, because I found lots of em interference being thrown off the cell, the delrin is probably supposed to direct all that energy into the water gap.

Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 09, 2010, 16:36:04 pm
OOOO MY webmug , I will warn you of something right now .

If your amp is the ab push pull type then you should watch carefully the commutation period between both waves with that large transformer . start with a high resistive load at first .

A transformer like that stores alot of energy , I have discovered that class a push pull transformer coupled with much static current is the only thing that will result in pure sine and not be affected by the bemf since its already conducting a large static current of lets say 700mA to 1 A , transformers only pass through the oscillations on the secondary and not dc , kinda like a coupling capacitor , but it will not be forced to throw out high voltage spikes if lets say the current goes from 1 A to 2 A at the max peak oscillation . The water itself it very resistant and always over 100 ohms , even with 6 large tubes in parallel in regular tap water .

Once those 2 transistors are at their transistion phase there is a time of very high resistance , and the transformer might give out a destructive pulse .

If you blow up that amp , Pm me and I will send you a design , it is not efficient but it is better for this type of application .
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 09, 2010, 20:53:43 pm
WM,

I would go for the calculated C and not for what your LCR meter is showing  :-)
I seen the same on my meter.

Steve
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 09, 2010, 22:06:02 pm
Measurements are difficult to do on a WFC, I think I will go for the calculated one then... 8)
I want this setup to go into resonance in 20-20kHz range so a choke L in mH range could work.

My idea is to connect at least 25W or more (4-8 ohms resistors) on the Left and on the Right channel at the amplifier output. (amplifier doesn't work if one channel is connected) Then connect to output channel (Left or Right) a diode (rated 3Amps) to make the sine wave signal DC pulsed. This will go into a HV transformer (1ohm 15-25Watts). Amplitude can be adjusted, going into the amplifier input.
Finally the signal would go into the blocking diode, choke and resonance cell.

My idea for a test signal going into the HV transformer could do AM modulation (gate) This on-gate signal does not fall to zero Vpp DC. So voltage amplitude would be present in the on-gate to keep potential on the cell. Off-gate signal is then Vpp max.

Isn't it so that the first diode (before HV transformer) could block/prevent a bemf from the HV transformer going into the amplifier?

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 10, 2010, 02:42:48 am
Measurements are difficult to do on a WFC, I think I will go for the calculated one then... 8)
I want this setup to go into resonance in 20-20kHz range so a choke L in mH range could work.

My idea is to connect at least 25W or more (4-8 ohms resistors) on the Left and on the Right channel at the amplifier output. (amplifier doesn't work if one channel is connected) Then connect to output channel (Left or Right) a diode (rated 3Amps) to make the sine wave signal DC pulsed. This will go into a HV transformer (1ohm 15-25Watts). Amplitude can be adjusted, going into the amplifier input.
Finally the signal would go into the blocking diode, choke and resonance cell.

My idea for a test signal going into the HV transformer could do AM modulation (gate) This on-gate signal does not fall to zero Vpp DC. So voltage amplitude would be present in the on-gate to keep potential on the cell. Off-gate signal is then Vpp max.

Isn't it so that the first diode (before HV transformer) could block/prevent a bemf from the HV transformer going into the amplifier?

br,
webmug

What kind of amp is this ?

Is the amp going to do a unipolar pulse ? aka relay type with pnp or n type mosfet . If so then yes it stands a chance of working since you can put a freewheel diode , no need for static DC.

But is you had the idea of puting  transfo from grround of supply to your push pull amp with true AC then No , this cannot be done  easily , perhaps a series parallel resistor or something , paralle resistor and cap .

but then resonance and noise gets multiplied a thousand fold ....

You never know enough about amplifiers to keep you prepraped for what problems are headin ur  way lol ....
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 10, 2010, 15:38:53 pm
Measurements are difficult to do on a WFC, I think I will go for the calculated one then... 8)
I want this setup to go into resonance in 20-20kHz range so a choke L in mH range could work.

My idea is to connect at least 25W or more (4-8 ohms resistors) on the Left and on the Right channel at the amplifier output. (amplifier doesn't work if one channel is connected) Then connect to output channel (Left or Right) a diode (rated 3Amps) to make the sine wave signal DC pulsed. This will go into a HV transformer (1ohm 15-25Watts). Amplitude can be adjusted, going into the amplifier input.
Finally the signal would go into the blocking diode, choke and resonance cell.

My idea for a test signal going into the HV transformer could do AM modulation (gate) This on-gate signal does not fall to zero Vpp DC. So voltage amplitude would be present in the on-gate to keep potential on the cell. Off-gate signal is then Vpp max.

Isn't it so that the first diode (before HV transformer) could block/prevent a bemf from the HV transformer going into the amplifier?

br,
webmug

What kind of amp is this ?

Is the amp going to do a unipolar pulse ? aka relay type with pnp or n type mosfet . If so then yes it stands a chance of working since you can put a freewheel diode , no need for static DC.

But is you had the idea of puting  transfo from grround of supply to your push pull amp with true AC then No , this cannot be done  easily , perhaps a series parallel resistor or something , paralle resistor and cap .

but then resonance and noise gets multiplied a thousand fold ....

You never know enough about amplifiers to keep you prepraped for what problems are headin ur  way lol ....
Do not know the amp class. It's a car audio amplifier. It also can be bridged.

The idea is to connect one channel to a large resistor (at least 25W 4ohm) then halve rectify the voltage formed over the resistor (unipolar pulse). This is then going into a transformer.

Can this be done? If the transformer is connected in parallel over the resistor?
Am I thinking wrong here? (too simple ::))

br,
Webmug

Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 10, 2010, 19:43:12 pm
why the resistor in parallel with the transformer?
it only eats up power
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 10, 2010, 21:24:17 pm
why the resistor in parallel with the transformer?
it only eats up power
First eat up some power and do tests on a smaller transformer before I connect the HV ESL transformer!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 29, 2010, 13:34:00 pm
Update,
My audio amplifier is producing a sine-wave signal. I connected one 6.8Ohm/50W resistor per channel in series. I use one channel where I connected a diode in series with the resistor. Now I have halve wave rectification. See below.
I want to do full wave rectification so I made a diode bridge, but the signal is not what I had expected. Resistor was connected in series to the input of the diode bridge. It is still halve wave. Any ideas? Does the amplifier require/wants two resistors for pos and neg halves with diode bridge in between?
Problem is that the signal is below zero volts! Also when higher frequencies are used the signal gets distorted (type of diodes are BY254)
You can also see the AM modulated signal that is generated (just like in the patent) for input signal to the step-up transformer. (Unipolar pulse from a rectified sine-wave) Eventually the amplitude doesn't go to zero/below volts!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 10, 2010, 09:53:41 am
Yeah exactly , like I said  ...

Class b puhs pull aint good , that backspike spike right there could *  up everything .

Push pull is like this , transitor falls below .7v , reverse voltage . reaching negavte -0.7 , imedance rises 10000 fold , , OMG INDUCTIVE SPIKE ... It works for music but this is water science , your shit better be pure ... This is not like o it will probably make no difference , just make it pure and forget about it you know ...

Here is a common and easy way to run a transfo , class a . type single ended .

BUT single eneded needs a big *  transfo with gaps otherwise it gets aturated quick , dont expect to make a power type of these seriously , it will cost ur arm .

I am not using single ended but push pull type class a  , but both work well , difference is that single has a larger a larger more expensive transformer . The type you need to make yourself you know ... That esl transfo must have been ... rofl ...

Here is the simplicity of class A single ended .

Puharich probably used pure class b with tubes , however , such an ampifier is at best 78% efficient , you might get more like 72% in real life . So whatever gas he had it better have been good ... You need more than 120 % faraday here ... Amps were most likely very low if ceramic was there... but remember there is other losses other than simple volts by r , coupling , radiation . Its hard to say the true potential of Puharichs's technology .

class a has its problems with AM also , check out this example , basicly the lower power you go the more dc is flowing , it does follow a certain rectance tho since the enveloppe will be moving , but a low frequency am  will make alot of wasted current . dc is unaffected by the primaryes reactance . It just flows straight down V/ wire resistance + 1 ohm safety resistor ....

edit rofl , forgot to attack images











Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 10, 2010, 19:50:54 pm
forgot images edited
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 02, 2011, 16:49:33 pm
Update on my resonance WFC progress...

Made new coils as seen on the VIC box. One of the problems I have is the core! You can see I have not a UU/UI core.
Instead I want to measure what's happening with signals from the VIC coils with a I core.
The coils orientations on the core are very important.

Take a GOOD look at the circuit made by Stan (fig.7-8 690) I have never seen someone model this !!!

Do we have a clue how this circuit works as a model? If you do, you know we need a PLL to make it work...
This VIC is a dynamic system with feedback. Not simply a LC system with one fixed frequency!

To make it clearer:
- sec (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- prim (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- choke 1 (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- choke 2 (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- pickup (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- core
- cell C and R

There are a lot of parameters in this VIC system interacting on each other (not all parameters are shown here).
If someone can model and simulate "simple" magnetic coupled coils please try and model fig.7-8 690 and take a peak at the chokes what they do and how they interact on/with the wfc. Then look at the diode function on the chokes. What happens at sec. coil when unipolar pulses go into a prim coil in the VIC on resonance. "VIC resonance" is the key. Then look at the wfc C (amp restriction and voltage takes over).

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 02, 2011, 17:12:47 pm
Driver for a MOSFET from pulse output from a PLL or 555 timer circuit to pulse the VIC primary coil.
I wanted to feed about max. 1 amp into the primary L1 coil at 12V.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 04, 2011, 14:08:27 pm
Update on my resonance WFC progress...

Made new coils as seen on the VIC box. One of the problems I have is the core! You can see I have not a UU/UI core.
Instead I want to measure what's happening with signals from the VIC coils with a I core.
The coils orientations on the core are very important.

Take a GOOD look at the circuit made by Stan (fig.7-8 690) I have never seen someone model this !!!

Do we have a clue how this circuit works as a model? If you do, you know we need a PLL to make it work...
This VIC is a dynamic system with feedback. Not simply a LC system with one fixed frequency!

To make it clearer:
- sec (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- prim (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- choke 1 (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- choke 2 (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- pickup (Cd / L / Rp /Rs)
- core
- cell C and R

There are a lot of parameters in this VIC system interacting on each other (not all parameters are shown here).
If someone can model and simulate "simple" magnetic coupled coils please try and model fig.7-8 690 and take a peak at the chokes what they do and how they interact on/with the wfc. Then look at the diode function on the chokes. What happens at sec. coil when unipolar pulses go into a prim coil in the VIC on resonance. "VIC resonance" is the key. Then look at the wfc C (amp restriction and voltage takes over).

br,
Webmug
I have been experimenting with this for a few months and this is my VIC model for the resonance wfc.
(note. There are a lot of parameters in this model before you can build this. All parameters in the real VIC are not simulated in this model. This model is showing the simple version)

We can see the Charging Chokes 1 and 2 at work and the function of the Blocking Diode as Stan has written in the patent (remove the diode and see what is happening).

You should play with GATE frequency to see what happens with the charge in the cell also change the values in the chokes and the cell capacitance and resistance. Gate frequency is low (change it and see why)
The voltage can be 10kV when you change the input voltage from the Pulse to 200V (this is the stepup coil 24V to 200V) Stepup can also be simulated (voltage can go up, current is restricted, CHARGE IMPULSES)
Experiment with the gate to let the cell discharge to min. of 2kV (when correct values are found)

5kHz is what SM has written in his patent, why that is choosen has to do with the core material (iron) higher frequency has no purpose here (core saturation at max.10khz)

Note that capacitance and resistance of the cell is changing (not in this model) the resonance frequency so this has to be compensated by a PLL to run the SEC at resonance. A pickup coil is on the core between the PRIM en SEC.
The changing has to be compensated because the charge is altered in the cell (voltage has to be HV) this is done with the GATE frequency.
Magnetic coupling is not shown, all the coils are magnetically coupled (coil interactions). This changes also the resonance frequency of the SEC coil due the core magnetic fields.

This is as close I can go for a simple model at this time...

Feedback is welcome!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 04, 2011, 16:54:33 pm
Impressive work webmug, keep going!
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 17:44:34 pm
Impressive work webmug, keep going!
Thanks Donaldwfc,

This simulation shows resonance effect.
Don't know if resonance can be simulated at the transformer secondary in this simulator.
I simulated resonance in the primary only. Thus 1:1 (should be 1:10 step up ratio PRIM:SEC)
Looks like http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm)

I used the same model as above.

Energy transformed in the transformer from primary to secondary is important what frequency and core is used.
For me it is a huge problem right now making the transformer.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 18:13:54 pm
3M resistance is too much. more like 10kohm max





Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 18:21:18 pm
Webmug that looks good, I am not in a position right now to dive into the details to follow along, but I hope you are able to find a few more clues and translate that into a working system!



Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 19:04:36 pm
3M resistance is too much. more like 10kohm max
I have measured my cell, spec are in my project thread.
It is 2Mega Ohms 1.8nF. If you look at the jnaudin cell it is 2.94Mega Ohms. 250mm length 5.19nF. Mine is 140mm.
It is also variable because voltmeter is charging it. 10kOhm is too low for charging the cell to HV in my opinion.

My gap size is 2mm. If you have smaller gap size then it is possible you have lower reading.
Remember: SM talks about dielectric properties of water. We are using these properties for charging the water by means of plates.

Open for discussion...

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 19:09:39 pm
Webmug that looks good, I am not in a position right now to dive into the details to follow along, but I hope you are able to find a few more clues and translate that into a working system!
I will do my best and I hope that others will simulate it too... I'm convinced SM did it too before he eventually build it.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 20:02:53 pm
I use this schematic for my VIC PLL controller, only needs a gate pulser attached.
Has a transistor driver, but I am using a MOSFET driver now. See my thread.

R1 R2 connected at 4046 chip regulates the resonance frequency bandwidth I use trimmers for all resistors.
UP DOWN is a Triangular wave generator for scanner. The lock-in circuit is off chip. PHILIPS had a chip with lock-in build in.
When locked-in, the chip 4016 switches are flipped to hold the signal into the PLL.

Home made bobbin and matched iron core  :o

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 21:07:51 pm
Again, I have to say ... great to see good work actually following Stans systems (instead of being all over the place!)
is that circuit built or still under simulation? for the vic are you matching inductances?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 21:50:05 pm
Again, I have to say ... great to see good work actually following Stans systems (instead of being all over the place!)
is that circuit built or still under simulation? for the vic are you matching inductances?
That VIC PLL circuit is drawn from SM his schematics without the gas throttle regulation etc.
This is a minimal circuit for one resonance wfc cell I have build.
The PLL pulser, pickup, scanner, driver are functional at this moment. But my VIC coils are not for now.
I'm working on it. As you can see, I have a lot of trimmers (see blue round shaped on breadboard 10%) to adjust the signals. Adjusting sawtooth/pickup driver/PLL pulser signals from the pickup coil.
Front board is the MOSFET driver (see thread for circuit).

Thanks for the tip!
My SEC has same inductance as one choke... what do you think?
Chokes connected to SEC affects inductance so SEC self resonance is changed.

What is your opinion?

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 06, 2011, 23:08:01 pm
the circuit you are building is for the 3-23 vic, i tried to make this vic, but i didn't match things, and i didn't have a decent circuit to pulse it... i will try again after i build some other things, but we have a close up picture of stans 3-23 vic from dynodon now, so i would try and make it as close to that as possible, the C1 C2 and Sec are all the same, and all the coils use the same wire size, i am sure there are some details to the design of this coil that require some careful consideration, i am sure your simulations will help you there too
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 13, 2011, 18:03:12 pm
the circuit you are building is for the 3-23 vic, i tried to make this vic, but i didn't match things, and i didn't have a decent circuit to pulse it... i will try again after i build some other things, but we have a close up picture of stans 3-23 vic from dynodon now, so i would try and make it as close to that as possible, the C1 C2 and Sec are all the same, and all the coils use the same wire size, i am sure there are some details to the design of this coil that require some careful consideration, i am sure your simulations will help you there too
Found a interesting book about pulse forming networks.
(the PFN and charging choke are designed so that their combined impedance matches the output load as nearly as possible when the network is switched. The output line therefore appears as an infinity long transmission line when the switch is closed).

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?seq=458&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.b251410&u=1&num=436 (http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?seq=458&view=image&size=100&id=uc1.b251410&u=1&num=436)

Also a patent, how to make laminated core for a transformer.

I measured stans 3-23 vic with help of the db9 serial connector (estimate values).

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2011, 15:01:10 pm
Different Resonance Cell VIC simulation in LTspice...
If you have a LTspice transformer model with core material that would be great to put it here!
Primary, Secondary, Choke 1 and Choke 2 are coupled.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2011, 15:31:30 pm
Nice simulator! Thanks a lot man.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 18, 2011, 17:23:29 pm
Found interesting fact about the chokes.
Choke 1 and 2 are not identical!
What Stan shows us in his schematic we see a adjustable choke 2 (wiper arm?).
Why is shown in my screen shot below. If chokes are doing something of equal voltage potential to the wfc cell they must be different...
When we alter a choke inductance the resistance is also changed, so voltage potential too. Choke 1 and 2 are matched to voltage potential (see below). Don't know what happens when blocking diode is added in circuit?

That's why Stan has adjustable Choke 2. (equal and opposite voltage)
You can see the step-up and charging choke strengthen the input signal.

More to learn...

Update:
More precise plot (frequency response) of coils on resonance (not pulsed) L1 and L2 overlapped.
Depends on inductance and resistance of coils and water!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 07:09:23 am
you get an overlapping frequency response with different choke parameters?

*thinks*
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 14:58:42 pm
you get an overlapping frequency response with different choke parameters?

*thinks*
Yes, that's just what we see in the picture. It doesn't make sense... 8)
Stan adjusted the choke2 (fine tuned potential) (why did he adjust choke2, which factor determents choke2 become different?)
The two chokes have (almost?) the same wire length and resistance.
He calls it Dual in line RC network. Chokes are pulsing on the same core.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 16:22:43 pm
In my recent test,I have found that the positive choke is the only one that part of the LC resonance.The negative choke has no effect on the frequency for resonance.I added a capacitor across the chokes in parellel,as well as the cell,and found out that the frequency for resonance would change when put across the positive choke and the cell,but not the negative choke.The test was done using only one capacitor across one item only.
 
Putting the extra cap across the negative choke had no effect on the resonance frequency.So that leads me to believe that the negative choke has no effect on LC resonance.
Don
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 16:54:50 pm
In my recent test,I have found that the positive choke is the only one that part of the LC resonance.The negative choke has no effect on the frequency for resonance.I added a capacitor across the chokes in parellel,as well as the cell,and found out that the frequency for resonance would change when put across the positive choke and the cell,but not the negative choke.The test was done using only one capacitor across one item only.
 
Putting the extra cap across the negative choke had no effect on the resonance frequency.So that leads me to believe that the negative choke has no effect on LC resonance.
Don
Don, thank you for testing this!

Interesting...

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 17:27:26 pm
This is basically what happens at resonance, but this is not a good model for simulation of a VIC.
If choke 2 inserted, different resonance frequency is needed (not what tested, see above). Flux coupling is needed.
When Blocking Diode is placed resonance it is messed up.

So here is were I am right now...

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 19, 2011, 18:31:14 pm
with the diode the choke mag field is supposed to collapse, and this will interact with the other choke too, so maybe there is an interaction with the matched chokes that you will not see in the simulation, you would have to have them on the same core and see that magnetic field collapse across them

i do think the chokes have to be matched because in all the systems we actually see, the appear to be equal, in the 8xa they are equal bifilar, in the rvic they are equal bifilar, in the 3-23 they appear to be the same size, although separated... no indication of tuning? in the 6-1 coil he does not use the tuning symbol on the second choke anymore does he? he always says they are in balanced electromagnetic intensity, physically same size and shape

interesting stuff you guys are playing with for sure, but i wonder about the diode and matched collapse of the field which is not in the simulation, just another piece of the puzzle
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 22, 2011, 12:05:32 pm
Archive information
I have some measurements to give you for the coils.
Using the above pictures as a referance the dementions are as followed.
 
The length of the large coils(left to right) 1.312 inches.
The width of the coils (top to bottom) 1.5 inches
The height of the coils(table up) 1.16 inches.
 
Coil base size measures .360 x .675 inches.
 
Length of small feedback coil (green) is.380 inches.
 
Wire size was 29 gauge .0115 inches.
 
My calculations for the primary wire is between 600-650 turns, wire resistance measured 10.5 ohms
 
Secondary 3000-3200 turns, wire resistance measured between 70-75 ohms between the three coils (2 chokes and secondary)
 
Now get busy
Don
Kali'
Your way off with your turns.
 
Here's the resistance values that I took from the coils with a Fluke meter.
Primary-10.5 ohms
Secondary and chokes-70-75 ohms
Feedback-11.5 ohms
 
Now 29 gauge wire measures 81.83 ohms per 1000 feet,so I come up with the following
 
Primary- 128 feet
Secondary and chokes- 884 feet
 
As for number of turns I come up with
Primary - 600-650 turns
Secondary and chokes - 3000-3500 turns
 
Because they are hand wound and not precision,these should be very close.
 
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don
The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
 
As for the NVR1550 diode,there is actually a MUR1550 and a MUR1560.The first is a 500 volt,and the second was a 600 volt.
 
Kali,as for your explaination of the voltage step up up 1:5 with 12 volts in and 60 volts out was a little confusing.But I believe I understand what you were getting at.
 
You are stating that if you apply 12 volts to the primary coil,with a step up ratio of 1:5 you will then get 60 volts out to the blocking diode.Now in my testing of my coils,I have a step up ratio of 1:10 or as I would put it 10:1.So if I apply 12 volts to my primary I should get 120 volts out of the secondary.Right?
 
Well when I test the output of my secondary without any load on it,I get a much greater step up than 10:1.I've seen several hundred volts.No just maybe that is what Stan is hoping for with his set up.Maybe because we are restricting amps with the choke coils that this high voltage from our secondary is able to stay high,because of the very low load.
 
Under normal step up coils we are appling loads to the secondary output which pulls the voltage down to the actual ratio of the steup.So just maybe with the chokes restricting the amps,we are able to keep this higher voltage than the stepup ratio produces.Maybe it has something to do with the coils all being on the same core that allows  this greater voltage to be produce.
 
Now again with my coil set up,of 100 turns primary,1000 turns secondary,and 2000 turns chokes,I have seen between 1kv-2kv at the cell.It it hasn't had any ill effect on the blocking diode.And my diode is the same rating as a MUR1560.
 
Thats some of my thoughts on this matter as I have seen it with my own testing.
Don
Primary : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 1.43mH, Core Inductance 8.01mH
Feedback : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 2.98mH, Core Inductance 10.4mH
Secondary : 3000 turns, 78.2?, Air Inductance 87.2mH, Core Inductance 358mH
L1 : 3000 turns, 75.9?, Air Inductance 83.1mH, Core Inductance 359mH
L2 : 3000 turns, 76.9?, Air Inductance 85.5mH, Core Inductance 359mH

So the secondary side total inductance is 1076mH
My testing coils are as follows:
Prim. 850uH 1ohm 200wnd AWG23 (100ohm series resistor) coil former 35mm length max.30mm height
Sec. 150mH 46ohm 2000wnd AWG30 coil former 35mm length max.30mm height
Pickup center tapped 2x 15mH 2x11ohm  2x500wnd AWG30 coil former 20mm length max.30mm height
Choke1 150mH 46ohm 2000wnd AWG30 coil former 35mm length max.30mm height
Choke2 150mH 46ohm 2000wnd AWG30 coil former 35mm length max.30mm height
core hole 10x8mm

Copper wire insulation should sustain 2k5Volt.
Inductance depends on core material used (measured values are without core)
Going to try ferrite core ( UU core )

My wfc cell is insulated in delrin. Wires are fully insulated.
It is 2Mega Ohms 1.8nF.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 25, 2011, 18:58:44 pm
Update:
I glued 6 ferrite Nickel Zinc (Ni-Zn) rods together as UU-core.
http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_1.htm (http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_1.htm)

This is the ferrite material I could get:
Material    ?i    Bms(Gs)    Hc(Oe)    Br(Gs)    Tc(?)    ?(?-cm)    Frequency    (MHz)    ?ur x 10-6/oC
A2G         300    2800    0.52       1500    160    1*107    0.1~3    20~45
Rods are 5cm long  O 8mm

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2011, 00:54:42 am
Webmug,

I've been were you are going.  I've had good luck building iron powder mixed with epoxy VICs.  They will not saturate at high frequencies and really can transfer some current if needed.  They run cool at 5khz.

NASCO has the finest iron filings to make a thick paste for a EI core mold.   

I've made mine disassemble-able so I can experiment with different coil arrangements, etc.

just a thought
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 14:34:37 pm
As already mentioned here on the forum, that voltage potential is not enough for dissociation of the water molecule, a resonant action must also be accomplished. This is what Stan describes in one of his patents.

Somehow the distance between the plates of the exciters will have, or can be adjusted to have, a wavelength, or a multiple wavelength, related to the motion of the water molecule in traveling from the one plate to the other.

The water molecule will be set in motion and enhanced in motion in the resonant cavity and exceed the impediment of water.

The enhanced physical action on the water molecule in the resonant cavity will directly affect the breaking up of the molecule into its gaseous atomic structure.

The water impediment now is relatively insignificant.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 17:04:05 pm
My understanding this "Resonant Action" reassembles to the "Theory and Formula of Aqueous Disintegration" by Keely.
Perhaps Stan used the "Vibration into Thirds at Nodes" for molecular disintegration resolving the water molecule?
Keely goes further with the process, just as Stan did to go to Sixths (new element) second order and yet even further to Low atomic ether!!!
Yet still going further second atomic harmonic!!!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 17:16:35 pm
Wemug,


Thanks for posting the disintegration pdf.  I'll be studying it because I've got a nice tube cell in RO water with kv high voltages at resonance and have systematically tried hundreds of permutations of pulse train length, gating length, etc and am stuck with what I still think is normal electrolysis.
again,  much obliged.


kb
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 17:25:13 pm
Wemug,


Thanks for posting the disintegration pdf.  I'll be studying it because I've got a nice tube cell in RO water with kv high voltages at resonance and have systematically tried hundreds of permutations of pulse train length, gating length, etc and am stuck with what I still think is normal electrolysis.
again,  much obliged.


kb
Are you sure, you have equal but opposite voltage at the chokes, for tuning it into resonant action?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 17:41:57 pm
webmug,


yep, using the 8xa circuit with 4.62H each side on toroid, equal length wire, 1.7KV peak to peak as I type, res at three distinct frequency spots...  highest is at 11.75khz
kb
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 17:42:52 pm
hey webmug, right on, this is where stans famous statement, restrict the amps and allow voltage to take over, comes into play, with amps flowing through the water the voltage can not grab onto the water and oscillate it, first amps must be completely cut off, then, and only then, with even 7 volts or around there, really low, as he mentioned in the 661 patent, the water can be set to oscillate between the plates, and be broken apart. Higher voltage just means the "amplitude" of the oscialltions is increased, more force.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 18:32:05 pm
webmug,


yep, using the 8xa circuit with 4.62H each side on toroid, equal length wire, 1.7KV peak to peak as I type, res at three distinct frequency spots...  highest is at 11.75khz
kb
I doubted that with equal length of wire for the chokes you created equal en opposite voltage. It is peak to peak choke A and peak to peak choke B and voltage choke B is 180 degrees shifted seen at choke A. So maximum potential of equal voltage but opposite to each other is formed between exciters at the same time.
Choke B has lower potential as choke A. How that is can be due the magnetic coupling or plate capacitance area at the resonant cell POS and NEG exciters. But that's my guess...

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 18:44:20 pm
Why has Stan used a 3 inch long resonant cavity? Any ideas?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 19:45:39 pm
webmug,


I said it was a 8xa choke, simple bifilar, no disagreement, at 10 volts in seeing 800v ptp at tube on oscope....   higher voltages in produces higher ptp volts but as you know amps creep in... and normal electrolysis
kb
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 04, 2011, 20:05:56 pm
I believe the resonance stan mean is called nuclear magnetic resonance, it happens on ortho water molecules due to the fact it has a spin of one while para molecules has no spin. When you inject a photon into the atom you create a resonance much like those in aromatic carbon rings, when the atom get exited it than collapses and emit another photon. I believe there will be an specific frequency.


Basically the atoms must be in a magnetic field and must receive energy in the wavelength needed to allow it to be absorbed. Probably UV and IR are the best options.


I think that to start the process we need to inject some photons to the energy to get started so we can populate the bath with energized atoms.


The acceleration of the atoms in the bath will emit waves, that can have enough energy...


To allow the atoms to collapse the field must be interrupted. (gate) This is the only way you can make the atoms to reestablish the equilibrium and emit the absorbed energy.


Energy in a electric field is said to exchange moment with the atoms thru exchange of photons.


If we make water to get positively ionized to explode and strike it with enough energy, a process of beta decay is what can happens with the liberation of electrons or positrons from the nucleus constituent sub particles (fermions).


Basically water has lot of chemical energy in the form of heat yet liquid, but it is apprisioned in the spin of the ortho water.


I'm trying to understand this further. 


Facts about resonance: subatomic particles,as discussed in subatomic particle (physics): Stable and resonant hadrons (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/570533/subatomic-particle/254787/Stable-and-resonant-hadrons):
These very-short-lived particles are called “resonant” because they are observed as a resonance phenomenon; they are too short-lived to be observed in any other way (see the figure). Resonance occurs when a system absorbs more energy than usual because the energy is being supplied at the system’s own natural frequency. For example, soldiers break step when they cross a bridge...

Related Topics[/size]hadron (physics) (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/251265/hadron) any member of a class of subatomic particles that are built from quarks and thus react through the agency of the strong force . The hadrons embrace mesons , baryons (e.g., protons , neutrons , and sigma particles), and their many resonances . All observed subatomic particles are hadrons except for...resonance (particle physics) (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/499398/resonance) in particle physics , an extremely short-lived phenomenon associated with subatomic particles called hadrons that decay via the strong nuclear force . This force is so powerful that it allows resonances to exist only for the amount of time it takes light to cross each such “object.” A...resonance (vibration) (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/499401/resonance) in physics, relatively large selective response of an object or a system that vibrates in step or phase, with an externally applied oscillatory force. Resonance was first investigated in acoustical systems such as musical instruments and the human voice. An example of acoustical resonance is the...strong force (physics) (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/569442/strong-force) a fundamental interaction of nature that acts between subatomic particles of matter. The strong force binds quarks together in clusters to make more-familiar subatomic particles, such as protons and neutrons . It also holds together the atomic nucleus and underlies interactions between all...a[/size][/i][/font]
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2011, 09:01:06 am
It does deal with NMR..Puharich talks about all of this in his unpublished PDF book. You guys need to read this, it will help all of u out Im sure of this. You can download if from my site. heres  a direct link to the PDF http://www.globalkast.com/docs/Andrija_Puharich_-_Elf_Magnetic_Model_of_Matter_and_Mind.pdf (http://www.globalkast.com/docs/Andrija_Puharich_-_Elf_Magnetic_Model_of_Matter_and_Mind.pdf)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2011, 20:02:10 pm
Yo yeah, thanks guys, i will take a further look into that.


Regards
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 07, 2011, 13:53:39 pm
Wemug,


Thanks for posting the disintegration pdf.  I'll be studying it because I've got a nice tube cell in RO water with kv high voltages at resonance and have systematically tried hundreds of permutations of pulse train length, gating length, etc and am stuck with what I still think is normal electrolysis.
again,  much obliged.


kb
Check out the similarities of Keely and Stan Meyer.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 09, 2011, 20:09:50 pm
Hello guys, i have some nice news, in the last days i've being busy cause i was invited to start a scientific initiation program in the RMN LAB in the university and i readily accepted... Yesterday I took my prototype to the university for measuring with a real oscilloscope, with a hand of an electronic and physicist bro who readily got interested in helping me to make the circuit better... in the end we burn't the transistors again when we start to put power into the unity. I'm really thinking about making a isolation transformer to drive the vic.....


I was there in the rmn lab when a distinct old man friend of the chief of the lab who gently asked me, about if i was only in the 1° year of university what i was doing there. I told him about my project, and he told me oh well in the sixties there was a mathematician priest that invented this and disappeared.. Man this priest is the inventor i know, who has now the patent on the subject. I asked some more old people in the institute and everybody remember him!!! He was in the papers at that time because of this and than suddenly disappeared. More than ever, now 100% even more certain i'm that this is, the man!


good weekend to all



Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 21, 2011, 19:16:29 pm
Well since this thread (board) has almost died, I show you my new build VIC transformer!

I matched the inductances to the specs from SM VIC coils data.
Also glued the core as a ferrite UI core

Now I'm making an exact replica of one Delrin encased resonance cell. This has to match capacitance coupled to the VIC transformer.
The VIC transformer must have the ability to operate with the WFC cell on different water types as dielectric between the exciters.
But first things first. I will go for tap water so the capacitance is the highest for this VIC transformer all the other water types should be lower.

Since all the specs in the patent tells for a typical cell 3 inch length but is 2.75 inch! And the air-gap is also different!
This effects the capacitance and is in the 20pF range, assuming this is the correct measurement value in the data.
The calculations shows this value in air.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 02, 2011, 18:54:54 pm
Does someone know where I can find the connections terminals SM used for the delrin resonance cell?

Br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 03:24:45 am
If you have a lathe you can manufacture them, but I am also interested in them or similar. I will see what I can find. But looks like a custom screw and with an of the shelf aluminium nut
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 04:20:25 am
Doubel End Screw: Here is one, a similar model, seen far left in the bottom of the image. It only need a hollow end and a spring.
http://dct-fastener.com/71-double-end-screw.html (http://dct-fastener.com/71-double-end-screw.html)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 11:14:14 am
Looks like it also is not of the shelf product. Should it be stainless SS304 spring and screw?
That made in china isn't SS.

Br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 03, 2011, 19:59:20 pm
This connection (or a similar one) is not in contact with water, so it can be made of aluminum. The spring will need to be SS since alu isn't flexible.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 06, 2011, 07:53:36 am
It looks a lot like the screw in type battery terminals & the end has been drilled out so u can put a spring in it...just a guess though.

(http://www.custombatterycables.com/images/side_extra_wire2.JPG)

(http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/large/ss/bssbltext.jpg)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 06, 2011, 17:31:55 pm
I don't know if they even made such a thing but
it looks like a press fit stud diode with one end bored out for the spring.

Does someone know where I can find the connections terminals SM used for the delrin resonance cell?

Br,
webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 09, 2011, 18:55:17 pm
I found Stainless materials company, unfortunately they do not accept orders from Europe countries.
Only Canada and USA  :o
Also they did not respond to my emails (or, they are on vacation), so if someone is interested buying some over there...

Looks like SM has used the following Stainless 304. If he used 316, the thickness is not .030"!!!

1/2" T304 ACD Stainless Round Rod
http://www.alcobrametals.com/display.php?id=1363 (http://www.alcobrametals.com/display.php?id=1363)

3/4" OD x .028" wall T304L CD Seamless Stainless Tube
http://www.alcobrametals.com/display.php?id=1187 (http://www.alcobrametals.com/display.php?id=1187)

If someone knows a European location for this Stainless Tubes where they sell, let me know.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 10, 2011, 14:57:14 pm
do you think .028" is close enough? That is what I went with.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 13:48:50 pm
Update:
Looks almost a compact VIC system.
There are still a lot of things to do.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 14:02:56 pm
Very nice!! is it tuning into resonance properly?
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 14:06:46 pm
Very nice!! is it tuning into resonance properly?
Not yet, I have a few issues with the TIP driver to solve.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 16:39:43 pm
Looks great, Webmug!

Looking forward to some testresults   ;)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 18:08:39 pm
do you think .028" is close enough? That is what I went with.
Dave,

There is not too much differences between .030"and .028" wall thickness.
(0.030 - 0.028) * inch = 0.0508 millimeters!  :-X
For a standard tube it could be a thickness measurement fault don't you think?
I think the resonance of this cell should not differ too much with .028" wall thickness, we will see...

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 13, 2011, 18:32:46 pm
@Steve, that's exactly what I was thinking  :)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 17, 2011, 07:16:10 am
Looks good!,
Just some questions,
If you are using resonance i am assuming you will be resonating for voltage...


Whats your operational voltage expected? also have you calculated in kickback from your cycles? Would hate to see all that work fried because you had more than your calculated voltage come back through the transformer...
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 19, 2011, 14:02:26 pm
hey webmug, right on, this is where stans famous statement, restrict the amps and allow voltage to take over, comes into play, with amps flowing through the water the voltage can not grab onto the water and oscillate it, first amps must be completely cut off, then, and only then, with even 7 volts or around there, really low, as he mentioned in the 661 patent, the water can be set to oscillate between the plates, and be broken apart. Higher voltage just means the "amplitude" of the oscialltions is increased, more force.
John Keely's Laws of Harmony (1898)-> 40 powerful laws:
John Ernst Worrell Keely direct relation to Stanley Allen Meyer and Dr. Andrija Puharich etc.

Law of Chemical Dissociation
"If the pitch of either atom, in a molecule, be raised or lowered; or, if they both be unequally raised or lowered in pitch until the mutual ratio be that of a discord; or, if the oscillation amplitude be augmented by heat until the atoms are with the concentric waves of attraction, - the atoms will separate."

Law of Variation of Atomic Pitch by Electricity and Magnetism
"Electricity and Magnetism produce internal vibrations in the atom, which are followed by proportional changes in volume and, therefore, pitch."

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2011, 15:02:19 pm
Hi,

I see a all types of VIC cores, but never a list of used material. So please post your core material what you are using.
Personally I think the Initial permeability (μi) should be high. I never tested high μi. Look for Mn-Zn.

Soft ferrites
Ferrites that are used in transformer or electromagnetic cores contain nickel, zinc, and/or manganese compounds. They have a low coercivity and are called soft ferrites. The low coercivity means the material's magnetization can easily reverse direction without dissipating much energy (hysteresis losses), while the material's high resistivity prevents eddy currents in the core, another source of energy loss. Because of their comparatively low losses at high frequencies, they are extensively used in the cores of RF transformers and inductors in applications such as switched-mode power supplies (SMPS).

The most common soft ferrites are manganese-zinc (MnZn, with the formula MnaZn(1-a)Fe2O4) and nickel-zinc (NiZn, with the formula NiaZn(1-a)Fe2O4). NiZn ferrites exhibit higher resistivity than MnZn, and are therefore more suitable for frequencies above 1 MHz. MnZn have in comparison higher permeability and saturation induction.

http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_1.htm (http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_1.htm)
http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_3.htm (http://www.bnf.com.hk/new_page_3.htm)

Ferrite - Manganese Zinc (Mn-Zn)

My VIC core materials:
----------------------
Iron
----------------------
Plates (silicon alloy steel lamination)
----------------------
Ferrite - Nickel Zinc (Ni-Zn)
Material //    μi   // Bms(Gs) // Hc(Oe) // Br(Gs) // Tc(℃) // ρ(Ω-cm) // Frequency(MHz) // αur x 10-6/oC
A2G      // 300 // 2800      // 0.52     // 1500   // 160     // 1*107    // 0.1~3  // 20~45
----------------------
400HH material 67 u=40 (Initial Permeability 40) B=2300 H=20 Br=800
----------------------

Br,
Webmug

Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 07, 2012, 19:08:05 pm
I totally agree. Please post magnetic parameters of cores used (AI appreciated).

There is no chance to compare wind counts without those magnetic parameters.

pragma
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 07, 2012, 21:42:26 pm
Looking into the "Resonant Action" process gives me the conclusion we are missing a part of the electronic circuit where SM could adjust the voltage amplitude.

If you look at the attachment we see Fig.16 voltage (Va) "Low gas-yield" voltage amplitude above (0V) and is variable to (Vn) "High gas-yield".

"Simply moving liberated atoms back and forth uniformly through the electrical polarization process in a repetitive manner establishes Resonant Action within the Fuel Cell".

This is only when there is a (maintaining electrostatic field) voltage (PULSE to restrict current) to maintain the polarization process.

If we simply adjust the voltage amplitude to the Transistor it gives Fig.9A (PULSE)
Fig.9B is the (GATE) for Resonant Action and should be multiplexed on Fig.9A (PULSE) to finally get Fig.16.

We now use the (official) circuit replicated from the photos from (Dynodon). This signal coming from this circuit is not the Fig.16 signal!
We all use (PULSE) Fig.91 and this is gated to 0V!

The transistor should have an voltage offset signal,

All you electronics tech guys, please reply...

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 10, 2012, 22:24:02 pm
"The lower level amplitude Va is not 0V the zero level; the amplitude level Va is sufficient to maintain resonance with a matched repetition rate of the duty cycle pulses."

PULSE (Va >>0V) generates the voltage for VIC coils resonance (frequency). This applies on the used core material and coils, we want to maintain oscillating electrostatic field. Duty cycle is 50%.


"The duty cycle pulse being variable in pulse repetition rate to match the distance in wavelength of the spacing of the plate exciters 86 and 87."

"...and means for varying the amplitude of said duty cycle pulses to a minimum level to maintain resonance between said pair of plate exciters; and means for varying the repetition frequency of said unipolar d.c. voltage pulses to vary the rate of generation of gases.

GATE duty cycle generates "Resonant Action" between the exciters and adjustable voltage amplitude in the GATE duty cycle vary the rate of generation of gases. ""Low gas-yield" Va..Vn "High gas-yield".

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2012, 02:49:32 am
That is interesting about the gating and the resonant frequency. 
What document is that from?

There is a difference between the resonance of an actual resonant cavity and the resonance of the cavities which Meyer worked with.

For instance, Meyer's resonant cavity tubes have a gap of 1/8", this correlates to a resonant frequency of around 24GHz.

What one discovers when they study resonant cavities is that the addition of a dielectric material between the walls of the cavity will reduce the resonant frequency of the cavity. This is known as dielectric loading, also, cavities which incorporate dielectrics are known as dielectric resonators.

There is a lot more study to do on such topics before they can be understood in relation to Meyers resonat cavities, but I think that is what were looking at.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2012, 03:36:00 am
I like the conversation, I just want to remind everyone that the coils have a large capacitance that will really have a large effect on the circuit. The addition of the water cap shouldn't have a huge effect.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 11, 2012, 12:21:37 pm
That is interesting about the gating and the resonant frequency. 
What document is that from?

There is a difference between the resonance of an actual resonant cavity and the resonance of the cavities which Meyer worked with.

For instance, Meyer's resonant cavity tubes have a gap of 1/8", this correlates to a resonant frequency of around 24GHz.

What one discovers when they study resonant cavities is that the addition of a dielectric material between the walls of the cavity will reduce the resonant frequency of the cavity. This is known as dielectric loading, also, cavities which incorporate dielectrics are known as dielectric resonators.

There is a lot more study to do on such topics before they can be understood in relation to Meyers resonat cavities, but I think that is what were looking at.
Yes, we have two kinds of resonance;  resonant motion of hydrogen and oxygen atoms of the water molecule;  coils (chokes) resonance.

I like the conversation, I just want to remind everyone that the coils have a large capacitance that will really have a large effect on the circuit. The addition of the water cap shouldn't have a huge effect.
The water capacitor should not have much effect on the resonance of the coils due the high inductance and high capacitance of the coils.
It's purpose is to create a oscillating high voltage electrostatic field at the exciter plates. This is the coils resonant frequency.

Then gating frequency (duty cycle) is used to create a stress field what resonates with the motion of hydrogen and oxygen atoms of the water molecule. This is what Keely and Puharich talk about by disrupting the balance of the molecules between 360..720Hz.

NOTE. The voltage amplitude level between the gate duty cycle above the maintained voltage amplitude Vn adjust the Low gas-yield to High gas-yield. Thus the rate of gas production. The disrupting electrostatic field is intensified and stresses the balance of the electrons and protons and the orbits are elongated on top of that; the free floating electrons from disrupted molecules intensifies the electrostatic fields. (VIC function)
If there is no electrical polarization (the molecules are lined-up) (current limit) before the disruption can occur; the electrons and protons leak outside the water capacitor through the chokes, that's why the chokes (limit current) are on resonance and work as a electron valve. Once the valves are closed and the disrupting electrostatic field takes place than the molecules can be stressed (are charged) enough etc.

In my opinion, it is not the physical resonance of the exciter plates, in the GHz frequency range, that disrupts the water molecules.

Br,
Webmug
 
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 12, 2012, 13:45:55 pm
John Worrell Keely-dale pond pt1 of pt18 end
list=UUun4GbKWi2lHzxvzzqtCEQw&index=92&feature=plpp_video

John Worrell Keely-dale pond pt5
(frequencies and harmonics of matter)

John Worrell Keely-dale pond pt6
(harmonic tone and enharmonic tone dissociation or disruption of molecules)

http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2121.msg22253.html#msg22253

Vibrations that Split Molecules produce Energy
http://www.artofhacking.com/IET/NEWTECH/live/aoh_puha1.htm

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 26, 2012, 15:24:36 pm
Hi,

Since the "Steam resonator" works like a "normal" VIC circuit, except it DUAL (at the same time) swings(flips) voltage polarity between the exciters and has also current limiting circuit.

Looking at the "Dual Switchover Circuit" for the "Steam Resonator WFC 427 DA" I noticed a DIODE placed over the SECONDARY COIL.

SM talks about PULSING TRANSFORMER, why did he put this in the figure 1-2?
Could this be the part that creates UNIPOLAR PULSES used for the Resonant Charging Chokes?

Just an idea.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2012, 12:24:41 pm
It seems to me as if the secondary shall be bypassed thru the diode for a pulse being produced from the lower chokes left and right. due to the upper excitor plates the circuit design is asymetric though upper and lower transistor enforce amp flow for the secondary in 2 directions.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 06, 2012, 19:13:37 pm
Looking again at the circuit "voltage amplitude control" there is something adjusting the voltage amplitude when GATE is ON.
When resonance maintained is active (pulse frequency) there is little or NO step charge. Voltage is PULSED on resonance never long time 0V but always pulsing between 0V to 54a.

When voltage amplitude is higher in the GATE ON time 53n there is step charge. The gas production can be regulated because voltage amplitude is regulated on user level (gas pedal).
This voltage going into the TIP120 transistor is variable in the GATE ON time, but never 0V level.

When PULSE is 0V there is no amp restriction on resonance, so there always should be a pulse signal on minimum voltage amplitude.

"Resonance Action" is adjusted with the GATE duty cycle and gas production level with the voltage amplitude.

Any comments?

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 07, 2012, 06:30:32 am
I know that as the engines RPM increases, it increases the voltage amplitude and gate's duty cycle proportionally.
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 08, 2012, 21:21:40 pm
I know that as the engines RPM increases, it increases the voltage amplitude and gate's duty cycle proportionally.
Tony, All,
 
did you study the "digital control means (signal M)", "analog voltage generator (signal J)" and the "voltage amplitude control" circuits in detail?
There must be a connection between voltage amplitude (signal J) and PULSE frequency (signal G to K11) (resonance maintained) and GATE (duty) that keeps the PULSE voltage amplitude on offset Vn.

So most of us have a missing circuit to pulse the VIC coils properly, I guess.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2012, 00:17:03 am
(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Figure_3-11_Analog_Voltage_Generator.PNG)

(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Figure_3-14_Gas_Volume_Control.PNG)
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 09, 2012, 14:52:25 pm
(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Figure_3-11_Analog_Voltage_Generator.PNG)

(http://globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Figure_3-14_Gas_Volume_Control.PNG)

Yes, "Resonant Action" is directly proportional to the "analog voltage levels" and "variable duty cycle" (Fig.3-14) and is calibrated.
But, do you have an idea why Fig1-4 has pulse between GATE OFF and Fig3-21 has no pulses? (STEP CHARGING EFFECT)

(crossover voltage from two separate power supplies)

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Resonance WFC
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2012, 22:04:48 pm
I cant remember if I had posted this before... Even though most of the subject matter deals with bifilar wound coils, the effects are what are most inspiring.

http://electropub.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/polarization-and-non-inductive-coils-revisited/

Quote
Say you have a ground plane, with a 1/4 wave antenna vertical to it, radiating significant RF power. Now, at the “input end” of the antenna, near the ground plane, there is a large current flowing from your RF source (coax, whatever) and a rather low voltage. If you were to touch a coin to the antenna at this point, you would see very little or no spark, due to that low potential difference. However, touching the same coin to the tip of the antenna would draw a long spark, since potential is at a maximum (while current, at resonance, is theoretically null).

Quote
I have dumped several thousand amps through one of my coils, in the cancelling mode, by discharging a huge bank of fully charged HV caps through its small resistance. The first observation one makes after this event is that the temperature of the coil goes from room-temperature to untouchably hot in an instant.

If I do this in the normal (summing mode) with the two coils in parallel, the coil EXPLODES, and shreds to hair in a shower of sparks. This is fascinating in light of the fact that, in this mode the coil has INDUCTANCE as well as its original (bucking) RESISTANCE: this means that FAR LESS INSTANTANEOUS CURRENT is present in the coil’s windings, at any moment during the discharge.