Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!
Electronics => Electronics => Circuit simulator => Topic started by: Donaldwfc on December 29, 2009, 08:59:22 am
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I've been playing with it for hours, really interesting.
Here is my latest, my basic idea is that the bifilar chokes are a 1:1 transformer connected in a sideways orientation... so far I can't figure out how to get it to resonate with DC
I've gotten this circuit to resonate up over 650 KV, just flick the switch in the center a few times and the voltage jumps up, but I don't really understand what it's doing. I've been trying lots of different things, and will continue to experiment!
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Yes, Donald.
Its so much fun!
Its such a nice way of testing, without soldering..
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Ok, here is an almost working VIC!
There are two things left to figure out with this circuit, and then it will be working as best as I currently understand.
1. Add in realistic resistances.
2. Calculate proper resonant frequency with resistance added.
I played around with this circuit for about 1.5 hours, or maybe more, trying lots of resistances, and the I realized that as you change resistance, it changes your resonant frequency! So if you solve these two things you'll see all the waveform clues stan was showing and talking about.
It has step charging, it has resonance, it has equal and opposite voltage, it has additive magnetic fields for the chokes, it has gating, it has continued resonant action during power-off stage (Stan says he was able to produce 19 times more gas on the power-off stage once excited into resonance)
To see all the above effects with this circuit you need to play with the resistance, but then resonant changes, so you can see all of these, but not all at once, until you match the resistance with the resonance, then you should.
Two more things with this circuit
3. The chokes are modeled as a 1:1 transformer sideways, and they do not increase the voltage with inductive reactance in this simulator, as far as I can tell.
4. The cell is modeled as a capacitor for each plate, so you can distinguish the voltage, with a resistor in parallel for the leakage. The resonant effect can be seen on the wire in between the resistor and capacitor.
Finally, the problem Dynodon and Webmug have with their real circuit.
5. The resonance is an AC swing! even though the voltage on the plates is always unipolar, the resonant voltage is AC... I don't know how to fix it in the simulator, but it's at least comforting to know this happens in the real circuit too...
Maybe with more playing around we can fix this.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture35-1.png)
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Just some comments on the VIC in general, after trying to model it in the simulator...
The chokes are a 1:1 transformer, positive voltage of any waveform and magnitude is sent through the positive choke and creates a 1:1 mirror version of this in the negative choke.
The negative choke is grounded, so it has nothing to do with the secondary, even when it is connected to to the secondary without a ground, it still produces the same waveform because the secondary goes from zero to positive, and the negative choke goes from zero to negative.
The secondary can be used to create any voltage setup you want, this is then sent into the positive choke, so long as the chokes are 1:1 you will get this mirrored on the negative.
The reason the magnetic fields of all the coils are aiding is simply because that's how you create a negative voltage. To illustrate this point, think of a center tapped transformer that is grounded in the middle, all the coils are wound in the same direction, magnetic fields aiding, but on the bottom side of the transformer you pull out a negative voltage equal and opposite to the top side of the transformer.
This is why the VIC still works without a center tapped secondary... you might think, and I did for a while, that it doesn't make sense to get an equal and opposite voltage out of each end when the secondary+positive choke is two coils above ground when you only have the single negative choke below ground... and it's because the secondary is irrelevant to the chokes 1:1 bifilar action.
Of course in the perfected design the secondary is resonating with the chokes, but I wont get into that now, I just wanted to point out how the chokes work in this manner.
The chokes also have other important characteristics and functions that i'll play with more later, such as distributed inductance and capacitance, inductive reactance, frequency doubling with blocking diode and collapsing magnetic fields... lots of fun.
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Single resonant charging choke with blocking diode, resistor for wfc, shows frequency doubling and voltage doubling with spike.
Will try the VIC Matrix Circuit next...
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Just some comments on the VIC in general, after trying to model it in the simulator...
The chokes are a 1:1 transformer, positive voltage of any waveform and magnitude is sent through the positive choke and creates a 1:1 mirror version of this in the negative choke.
The negative choke is grounded, so it has nothing to do with the secondary, even when it is connected to to the secondary without a ground, it still produces the same waveform because the secondary goes from zero to positive, and the negative choke goes from zero to negative.
The secondary can be used to create any voltage setup you want, this is then sent into the positive choke, so long as the chokes are 1:1 you will get this mirrored on the negative.
The reason the magnetic fields of all the coils are aiding is simply because that's how you create a negative voltage. To illustrate this point, think of a center tapped transformer that is grounded in the middle, all the coils are wound in the same direction, magnetic fields aiding, but on the bottom side of the transformer you pull out a negative voltage equal and opposite to the top side of the transformer.
This is why the VIC still works without a center tapped secondary... you might think, and I did for a while, that it doesn't make sense to get an equal and opposite voltage out of each end when the secondary+positive choke is two coils above ground when you only have the single negative choke below ground... and it's because the secondary is irrelevant to the chokes 1:1 bifilar action.
Of course in the perfected design the secondary is resonating with the chokes, but I wont get into that now, I just wanted to point out how the chokes work in this manner.
The chokes also have other important characteristics and functions that i'll play with more later, such as distributed inductance and capacitance, inductive reactance, frequency doubling with blocking diode and collapsing magnetic fields... lots of fun.
Well, that's the most difficult part of the equation!
I'm still learning things about transformers.
As we know, all inductors have capacitance and all capacitors have inductance at specified frequency. We do want resonance to occur in this circuit, Yes? So why do we see a LCR circuit as different parts?
Did Stan designed his VIC transformer inductor to have "parasitic parallel capacitance" or "distributed self-capacitance" which also resonates with the choke "parasitic parallel capacitance"? Then you can see the LCR circuit without a Capacitor symbol in it. Don't see one in Stans circuit, but he talked about resonance, right.
I was testing a little transformer.
Prim. 1,8Ohm 3,25mH - Sec. 16Ohm 41,07mH. Used in an old PHILIPS TV.
Pulsing (DC 0-12Vpp 50%du)
When hitting resonance at about 150kHz it's generating a beautiful sine-wave 210Vpp AC signal. So the transformer acts like a LCR circuit.
If you put a DIODE at the AC output, you get different frequency (Unipolar Pulse) signal, then feeding into a choke... also hits resonance on that. To only thing the transformer must do is step-up the voltage from 12 or 24V DC to more, we want that, because it's creating huge EMF in the choke. The WFC cell acts as variable resistor (dielectrics), when little current is passing it increases resistance to a certain value the cell has...(electrolysis part) it steps-up voltage? When this value is reached you could gate this circuit (restrict more current).
The main problem/solution could be the "parasitic parallel capacitance" value of a inductor.
Why did Stan used cavities? Did he match capacitance (lower frequency)? PLL could be used for keeping it in resonance too.
Correct me, if I'm thinking wrong here.
Question @Dynodon:
Dynodon, have you seen capacitors at Stans place, connected at/in some circuit (alternator/VIC)?
Think about a FBT resonating at 15kHz AC, that connected to a diode and choke, resonating on "parasitic parallel capacitance" for optimal amp restriction, diode has no influence in this circuit.
Remember what's happening when you put a diode in a LCR circuit, it doesn't resonate!!!
br,
webmug
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I still have lots more to play with and learn, but so far I have seen pretty much all the waveform and effects that Stan has talked about while trying to simulate his circuits, which is great news. I want to figure out how these different effects relate in the right context so that I can come up with the correct configuration. I'll have to re-read the patents and tech brief and try simulations of the stuff exactly as I read it so that I am not mixing different stuff.
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webmug,no caps in anything I saw there.Just the coils's he always talks about.
And yes you can get a lcr circuit to resonate with the blocking diode.I've been doing that for months now.But it still creates a negative component when viewed with a scope.
Don
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Two resonant charging chokes...
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I was playing around with an idea for the electron extraction circuit.
Obviously you can't replicate this in the circuit simulator because the capacitor wont give you electrons ;)
Basically, as you already know, the EEC pulses opposite to the VIC, so that when the VIC is off, the positive plate can be used to extract electrons when a positive potential is applied across the resistive load.
In this situation the water, being the source of the electrons, acts as the 'ground' or negative connection to the circuit.
The idea.
Step 1: Put the resistive load... light bulb... in between the top choke and the positive plate.
Step 2: Separate the VIC in between the secondary and bottom choke, so that each has it's own individual ground.
Step 3: Pulse the VIC continuously.
Step 4: Gate the ground on and off for the bottom choke, while the secondary is always grounded.
This results in the positive half of the VIC always being pulsed, and the negative half of the VIC being gated on and off. This means when the negative is gated off, the EEC comes into effect automatically, and starts pulling them through the light bulb.
Of course you have to have a working VIC, and voltage level high enough to be ionizing the water.
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Hi Donald,
A wfc in my opinion is not an ordinary capacitor nor is it acting as one. Besides your experiment, Tim Walker described an interesting experiment too on another forum. Take a tube or pipe and take it to your kitchen stainless steel or copper or even aluminum, connect positive lead of a voltmeter to the pipe and ground lead to for example a stainless steel sink or other earth ground. Run water thru the pipe from the faucet and see if a voltage is measured. What is the significance of that?
Regards,
Andy
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Its not a capacitor , its a resonant cavity .
Its not just some tube and some pulsing .
Notice the perpendicular tubes in the Stephen meyers patent , the same phase goes to 2 different tubes , wich are totally opposite from eachother in a 3 phase manner , they are always facing their twin brother .
Now why not just go 3 tubes , why the 2nd generator ?
Looking at the tesla antenna system once more I wonder ... From the lattice etc ...
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Hi Dankie,
It's a capacitor, it's a resonant cavity, it's whatever the application calls for. No argument from me.
Not sure what you mean by perpendicular. I see 3 tubes one inside the other. The inner tube and outer tube oscillate and the middle tube is the ground. Two generators doubles the output. I was at my cousin's house the other day and her husband was showing me his workshop. His grinder is an electric motor with a center shaft and 2 grinding wheels attached. Exchange the grinding wheels with generators or alternators simple. So why not 2 generators? Get 2 for the price of one...
Regards,
Andy
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to have the 2 alternators connected to a solid rod that is generating both alternators you would think there would be some type of phase alignment done in the mechanincal perspective of things... we know a 3 phase is showing .33 of each phases peak wave right? would you want to match the peaks or off set them? to off set will double the frequency while i think matching them will double your amplitude of the single alternator freq. for them to be belt driven would not allow any phase matching between two alternator due to belts slip
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Hi Outlawstc,
Why? I'm referring to Stephen Meyer's patent application and his modification of his brother's method. Each phase is connected to a separate set of 3 tubes so minimally it can handle 6 sets of 3 tubes each as described in the patent application with 2 generators. Yes, there would be a 1/3 or 33.333...% pulse width so we agree on that. KISS is best.
Regards,
Andy
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to have the 2 alternators connected to a solid rod that is generating both alternators you would think there would be some type of phase alignment done in the mechanincal perspective of things... we know a 3 phase is showing .33 of each phases peak wave right? would you want to match the peaks or off set them? to off set will double the frequency while i think matching them will double your amplitude of the single alternator freq. for them to be belt driven would not allow any phase matching between two alternator due to belts slip
Yeah ur right , it all seems very troublesome , Thats why Im gonna do this solid state . 400 times the frequeny range and 10 times less electrical power needed for exciting that cell anyways .
Problem with that is you need transformers to isolate the impedance , a push pull amp wont like to drive the wfc straight up . I sure will try tho , it depends on the phase angle at the source , normally this is meant for speaker coil or transformer , an inductive and resistive load . Try running a pure capacitor tho and you will run into trouble .
Still trying to locate a high frequency 3 phase transformer , wish me luck lol .
I have located a bunch of audio trans ranging from 25 to 75 euros each . Rather annoying but the range is needed here , 200 hz to 30000z is all we need . Theres a 6 amp fuse there on the patent so im aiming at least for 5 , that means those tiny trans are no good , those are really common and cheap .
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Dankie, It appears to me that you are putting a lot of effort into a product you want to sell when there is no demand for it. Stan made a 3 phase RVIC and then a single phase solid state VIC, you do not need a 3 phase solid state VIC. Stephen didn't use one, Stan didn't use one, if you do it, you will be the first.
As far as I can tell you are just making a pulsing circuit, but the frequency is only part of it, you need the coils, and you have to make them yourself, you can't buy a 3 phase solid state VIC transformer, you would have to buy a normal transformer and rewind it. And you would simply have three primaries and 1 secondary, because no matter how you wind a single transformer you will not be able to run three secondaries on separate phases because the waveforms will combine. So what ever you come up with might look similar to a Bob Boyce transformer.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? because it doesn't make any sense to me.
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Hi Donald,
Not necessarily true. There are 3 phase transformers commercial for sale designed for around 50-60 hz AC. The primaries and secondaries may be wired in a variety of ways depending on application. The transformers are usually expensive. Dankie would have to probably build his own but that's up to him. Tesla has a patent for conversion of one phase to 2 phases to run 2 phase motors. I would tend to agree that KISS is better and more economical. Using off shelf parts and modifying is usually better that fabricating from scratch. Bifilar alternators and motors are off shelf for example. Wiring them can be hairy sometimes depending on what the goal is. But you're probably discovering that.
Regards,
Andy
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Yeah I already expected that there would be no demand . The little demand there will be will pay my tubes . I worked for a few months this year so thats cool
This is for scientific purposes , it is the tool I am making for me for the Stephen Meyers replication . I am not about to play with pulleys and 1000 watt motors to run 100 watts of electrolysis @ 400+ hertz . I am not doing any of Stan's junk , I am working on the 'quote : 'back to square one' design of his brother ..
If it can be done with an alternator , I will do it with my synthetizer , thats what puharich had , once its isolated theres no difference whatsoever . It will work just fine as is anyways if the impedance is meant to be matched , . The water bath has so little phase angle and capacitance anyways that it will do fine as is , It dont like pure capacitive phase angles but it can handle any type of coil as is or LRC as is , how do you think those little LRC signal generator experiments get done lol , little op amps have fets inside em . Transformers isolate AND can step up , so its a double wammy . Stan Meyers work revolves around high voltage .
A patent is an open ended book , those with 'skill in the art' can see variations of the system . As far as I know Stephen mentions a 3 phase generator , and hes running at 496 hz , times 2 , synchronized . He mentions higher voltage gets more gas , so hes stepping it up anyways .
Would it make more sense to you If I ghetto rigged a double belt driven pulley system @ 10:1 gear ratio , times 2 , well synched 20 volt alternators , operating from an inefficient single phase motor @ 1700 rpm in my house lol ?
.. oops the breaker busted again ...Sorry everybody , dont mind me Im doing some Stanley Meyers experiment ... Ermm can I run an extra wire from the kitche ? .... Ill pay the power bills promise ... OMG I told you guys , dont cook or make toasts when Im experimenting ... OMG FIRE FIRE ...
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Fun Fun :D