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Projects by members => Projects by members => Donaldwfc => Topic started by: Donaldwfc on December 01, 2009, 03:34:54 am

Title: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 03:34:54 am
I am collecting all in one place, information useful for building this Demonstration Cell.
I will plan to build it at some point in the future.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture7-2.png)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/plateviccopy.jpg)
1. Power Switch
2. 10 A Circuit Breaker
3. Neon Lamp
4. 150K Ohm Resistor
5. Variable Transformer Powerstat Type 21 [$150] http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/VAR103PD/Variable+Transformer+Powerstat++Type+21.html
6. Full Bridge Rectifier nb12a2 5v 40 [can not find]
7. 100 Ohm Clarostat VP25K [$8.33] http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=10M5288&CMP=AFC-TL10000001
8. SCR gec35m [can not find] 400v 35 amp ... http://datasheetz.com/data/Discrete%20Semiconductor%20Products/SCRs/S4035J81TP-datasheetz.html
9. D1 [no compnent value]
10. Diode 1n118a
11. Optocoupler H11D1 [$0.76] http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/504303-optoisolator-w-base-6-dip-h11d1.html
12. EC52 Core http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/ec52.pdf http://www.allstarmagnetics.com/srch.asp?catky=9598503&subcatky1=2217676&subcatky2=7452355
13. Two 3x12 inch 304SS plates [$8.98] http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-1917-8279-24ga-0024-304-stainless-steel-sheet-2-finish.aspx
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/platevic2copy.jpg)
14. Step-Down 120v-12.6v 3 amp [$29.95] http://www.itsonsale.com/Items/item.aspx?SKU=RS_273-1511B_10PACK
15. Bridge Rectifier br605 100v 8 amp [says 6 amp ...not 8 amp] http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/400/BR605.php
16. 1000 uf 25 volt http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/400/BR605.php
17. 7805 Voltage Regulator [$1.59] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062599
18. Capacitor .33 mf
19. 7812 Voltage Regulator [$1.59] http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062600&CAWELAID=107590987

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/platevic3copy.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture13.png)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/8XA_Scope_Shot_from_Don.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture15-3.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture16-2.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture17-1.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture18.png)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/MeyersPics013copy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/PICT0103.jpg)

Electronics World & Wireless World
(January 1991)


Eye-witness accounts suggest that US inventor Stanley Meyer has developed an electric cell which will split ordinary tap water into hydrogen and oxygen with far less energy than that required by a normal electrolytic cell.

In a demonstration made before Professor Michael Laughton, Dean of Engineering at Mary College, London, Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, a former controller of  the British Navy, and Dr Keith Hindley, a UK research chemist. Meyer's cell, developed at the inventor's home in Grove City, Ohio, produced far more hydrogen/oxygen mixture than could have been expected by simple electrolysis.

Where normal water electrolysis requires the passage of current measured in amps, Meyer's cell achieves the same effect in milliamps. Furthermore, ordinary tap water requires the addition of an electrolyte such as sulphuric acid to aid current conduction; Meyer's cell functions at greatest efficiency with pure water.

According to the witnesses, the most startling aspect of the Meyer cell was that it remained cold, even after hours of gas production.

Meyer's experiments, which he seems to be able to perform to order, have earned him a series of US patents granted under Section 101. The granting of a patent under this section is dependent on a successful demonstration of the invention to a Patent Review Board.

Meyer's cell seems to have many of the attributes of an electrolytic cell except that it functions at high voltage, low current rather than the other way around. Construction is unremarkable. The electrodes --- referred to as "excitors" by Meyer --- are made from parallel plates of stainless steel formed in either flat or concentric topography. Gas production seems to vary as the inverse of the distance between them; the patents suggest a spacing of 1.5 mm produces satisfactory results.

The real differences occur in the power supply to the cell. Meyer uses an external inductance which appears to resonate with the capacitance of the cell --- pure water apparently possesses a dielectric constant of about 5 --- to produce a parallel resonant circuit. This is excited by a high power pulse generator which, together with the cell capacitance and a rectifier diode, forms a charge pump circuit. High frequency pulses build a rising staircase DC potential across the electrodes of the cell until a point is reached where the water breaks down and a momentary high current flows. A current measuring circuit in the supply detects this breakdown and removes the pulse drive for a few cycles allowing the water to "recover".

Research chemist Keith Hindley offers this description of a Meyer cell demonstration: "After a day of presentations, the Griffin committee witnessed a number of important demonstration of the WFC" (water fuel cell as named by the inventor).

A witness team of independent UK scientifc observers testified that US inventor Stanley Meyer successfully decomposed ordinary tap water into constituent elements through a combination of high, pulsed voltage using an average current measured only in milliamps. Reported gas evolution was enough to sustain a hydrogen /oxygen flame which instantly melted steel.

In contrast with normal high current electrolysis, the witnesses report the lack of any heating within the cell. Meyer declines to release details which would allow scientists to duplicate and evaluate his "water fuel cell". However, he has supplied enough detail to the US Patent Office to persuade them that he can substantiate his 'power-from-water' claims.

One demonstration cell was fitted with two parallel plate "excitors". Using tap water to fill the cell, the plates generated gas at very low current levels --- no greater than a tenth of an amp on the ammeter, and claimed to be milliamps by Meyer --- and this gas production increased steadily as the plates were moved closer together and decreased as they were separated. The DC voltage appeared to be pulsed at tens of thousands of volts.

A second cell carried nine stainless steel double tube cell units and generated much more gas. A sequence of photographs was taken showing gas production at milliamp levels. When the voltage was turned up to its peak value, the gas then poured off at a very impressive level.

"We did notice that the water at the top of the cell slowly became discolored with a pale cream and dark brown precipitate, almost certainly the effects of the chlorine in the heavily chlorinated tap water on the stainless steel tubes used as "excitors".

He was demonstrating hydrogen gas production at milliamp and kilovolt levels.

"The most remarkable observation is that the WFC and all its metal pipework remained quite cold to the touch, even after more than twenty minutes of operation. The splitting mechanism clearly evolves little heat in sharp contrast to electrolysis where the electrolyte warms up quickly."

"The results appear to suggest efficient and controllable gas production that responds rapidly to demand and yet is safe in operation. We clearly saw how increasing and decreasing the voltage is used to control gas production. We saw how gas generation ceased and then began again instantly as the voltage driving circuit was switched off and then on again."

"After hours of discussion between ourselves, we concluded that Stan Meyer did appear to have discovered an entirely new method for splitting water which showed few of the characteristics of classical electrolysis. Confirmation that his devices actually do work come from his collection of granted US patents on various parts of the WFC system. Since they were granted under Section 101 by the US Patent Office, the hardware involved in the patents has been examined experimentally by US Patent Office experts and their seconded experts and all the claims have been established."

"The basic WFC was subjected to three years of testing. This raises the granted patents to the level of independent, critical, scientific and engineering confirmation that the devices actually perform as claimed."

The practical demonstration of the Meyer cell appears substantially more convincing than the para-scientific jargon which has been used to explain it. The inventor himself talks about a distortion and polarization of the water molecule resulting in the H:OH bonding tearing itself apart under the electrostatic potential gradient, of a resonance within the molecule which amplifies the effect.

Apart from the copious hydrogen/oxygen gas evolution and the minimal temperature rise within the cell, witnesses also report that water within the cell disappears rapidly, presumably into its component parts and as an aerosol from the myriad of tiny bubbles breaking the surface of the cell.

Meyer claims to have run a converted VW on hydrogen/oxygen mixture for the last four years using a chain of six cylindrical cells. He also claims that photon stimulation of the reactor space by optical fibre piped laser light increases gas production.

The inventor is a protegee' of the Advanced Energy Institute.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 05:29:18 am
were did you get all the component part numbers from   did you figure them out yourself  why are some unavailble
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 05:51:40 am
Dynodon just posted them earlier today, I'm sorting through it a bit trying to understand it better.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 09:45:09 am
Where did you find the last photo of the 80's stand alone chokes?
I wonder if it is wound like seen in fig 8XA
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 13:12:13 pm
natural water would be any water???  i do know there is such thing as living water and dead as well.. which has to do with the structure of water its self... if it has to do with that meaning water must be in a energetic mode which can usualy be found in nature and not in confinded pipes there is a simple solution to make dead water alive once more..    by putting it in a vortex state you alow water to restructure itself as well as oxidize any germs in the water.. the eye of the vortex is like a endo action as to a water fountain being a exo action. the eye of the vortex feeds the water oxygen better then a fountain due to the fact it tends to pull oxygen in under the rules of gravity and centrifical force i beleive.. meaning more atomized oxy is getting in the water.. pluss the water is being moved in a natural way.. (vortex)
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 13:34:34 pm
@Donaldwfc
8. SCR gec35m [can not find] 400v 35 amp ... http://datasheetz.com/data/Discrete%20Semiconductor%20Products/SCRs/S4035J81TP-datasheetz.html
9. D1 [no compnent value]

It's a Thyristor Module (D1 in SCR).
"Thyristor (SCR) / Diode Modules" I can not find the original type "gec35" data sheet.
Something like this: http://www.dynexsemi.com/products/pressure_module/index.htm

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 15:12:26 pm
Dielectric constants of water in different thermal states

WATER 4-88

WATER (32° F ) 88.0

WATER (68° F ) 80.4

WATER (212° F ) 55.3

WATER (390° F ) 34.5

WATER (80° F ) 80.0

WATER (STEAM ) 1.00785
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 16:31:24 pm
The D1 diode didn't have a number on it.Just a normal diode rated for 4amps will do.As for the SCR,it's just a 400v 35amp.The GE ones aren't available anymore.35 amp is over kill.The vari-ac is only rated for 5 amps,so thats the limit the whole system can handle.
The choke coil picture I took.And I measured the inductance as well.760 uH was taken with a BK Precision LCR meter.The full bridge rectifier is just a 25 volt 40 amp.
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 16:39:48 pm
Heres a pic for you
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 17:16:36 pm
i have built every part of this circuit eactly and to the point i even etch the identicle boards  it doesnt work  the coil was also correct

it didnt work i messed with for 4 months

the problems with just  the circuit board is

1 their is an led that goes in series with the  100k pot which is not on the schematic
2  the 555  7490 and 7404 is all 5 volt not 12v
3 the 7404 has an led on it through to ground
4 the 7404 with led  is 12 volt dropped down and what is called current sunk
5 the 12 volt is seperate fed for the scr  is also reason for so many capcitors on the voltage regulators
6 the schematic is missing 3 key parts that make it work 
7 d1 is a freewheel diode  value doesnt matter  just keeps emf from blowing scr or keeping it latched open
8 18 volts goes into coil  17 volts come out amps is 1.36 to cell

i used all components of equal value to don has given
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 17:51:23 pm
theirs also an led that goes from power rail on 5v to ground  to indicate power is working
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 17:55:59 pm
Thank you Don!
Thank you everyone for helping on the component values!

Steve, "natural water", I think just means any water, rain, well, river, whatever, tap, sea water... the "natural" word means "no chemicals added" ... so you "don't process the water in any way" ... you just take the water and put it in.

dudleyengineering, I am interested in your work and experience with this circuit, all your efforts would be extremely useful, would you be willing to share some of your work with us here in this topic? any pictures or component values or descriptions of how it is built would be fabulous. If it didn't work for you then maybe we can take another look and figure out how to make it work?

This is great news, and thanks for the picture Don, beautiful!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 18:00:51 pm
theres one thing about this set up that interest me at the moment that i think many may overlook..  we know that it is stated that this works due to the amp inhibiting effect  which is created by the bifilair chokes stated by stan many times.. dynodon has given is the specs for the wind count and size for this prototype, even the core type...  but one thing i notice he has done that has played in other roles of why things dont work right.. he has delrin encasing the bobbin from the looks of it..   air may be resistive to current, but when i core is being rung at into higher potentials would it not have energy loss in the core, but to isolate the core is to make it into a tank circuit in it self?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 18:19:10 pm
the delrin case is on the bobbin as  a means of attaching the core to the box

the circuit will produce gas but not the amount you would think  it isnt an overunity because it uses 5 amps going into the inductor  which is restricted to 1.36  the  other 3.7 amps are wasted as heat  and magnetism of the core

the unit will get hot the reason the units are so tall is to make it take a long time  because the volume of water and metal are higher
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 18:32:13 pm
The D1 diode didn't have a number on it.Just a normal diode rated for 4amps will do.As for the SCR,it's just a 400v 35amp.The GE ones aren't available anymore.35 amp is over kill.The vari-ac is only rated for 5 amps,so thats the limit the whole system can handle.
The choke coil picture I took.And I measured the inductance as well.760 uH was taken with a BK Precision LCR meter.The full bridge rectifier is just a 25 volt 40 amp.
Don

760uH you mean each choke ?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 19:15:22 pm
Quote
The full bridge rectifier is just a 25 volt 40 amp.
Don

dynodon i have a spec sheet for the bridge rectifier (mb12a25v40)..  it is a single phase 25 amp 400 volt
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 20:22:38 pm
sorry your right about the bridge.400 volt 25 amp.Just typed it in too fast.
Radio Shack sells them in that rating.I have just that size already.
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2009, 20:47:40 pm
the delrin case is on the bobbin as  a means of attaching the core to the box

the circuit will produce gas but not the amount you would think  it isnt an overunity because it uses 5 amps going into the inductor  which is restricted to 1.36  the  other 3.7 amps are wasted as heat  and magnetism of the core

the unit will get hot the reason the units are so tall is to make it take a long time  because the volume of water and metal are higher

yea, i agree, i don't expect this or even the tubular array to be over-unity, but just to prove the concept that it is voltage doing the work, and that by changing the spacing you change gas production. This doesn't work with electrolysis, so it proves it is "different science" at work, and would be the point of the demonstration. good for showing scientists/engineers/investors as well as personal understanding from building it

also from understanding this system, the next step would be to increase the gas production to the point where you cross the unity mark, and refine it and design a better one...

when you really look at the efficiency though, it would be "fair" to look at the volts and amps through the wires right before they enter the cell and compare that to your gas output, because the "power supply" side of the system can be 99% efficient or 1% all by it's self, but that is power wasted by the power supply, and not power used to split the water, and then you just design a more efficient power supply and you can bring the "whole apparatus" to an over-unity point :)

so you say "it doesn't work", did you mean the circuit wont function like expected, or it does produce gas, just it's not overunity? If there is a huge problem with the circuit then that might make me look in other directions, but i will be happy with less than unity gas production when i build this
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 02:13:12 am
I remember hearing Stan's brother Stephen say in his audio interview that he remembered seeing a strange band on the middle of the two plates. Dudley, have you seen this with yours?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 02:38:19 am
i think he said ribbon like bands during production...somthing like that
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 03:31:22 am
So you got the original chokes  , the cell , the power supply , everything you need ?

Its time to  connect the leads and see if it works , didnt the owner do that already ?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 04:02:34 am
Why did you edit your post ?

4 the 7404 with led  is 12 volt dropped down and what is called current sunk

Nice Dudley , so what is better than brute force for the same  amount of energy ?

Why mention this  , isnt this normal for leds to be current sunk .

What do those Leds do anyways ?

thx
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 04:17:03 am
nope never saw the band cause i used a tube

#4 being current sunk throught to led  means

he was putting 12 volt thru a resistor to drop it down then goes into 7404 and back out to resistor then  led and last ground

basiclly he did it to make an indicator light for the 12 volt for scr   it also will create slight delays on certain outputs of the 7404

all the leds were indicator the one on the pot would go brighter or dimmer with adjustment a
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 14:08:01 pm
Quote
nope never saw the band cause i used a tube

dudley,

from what i have gathered dynodon stated that this unit will only work with plates .. stans schematic that dydnodon also provided states 3x12" plates..   

Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 16:13:06 pm
it s a demostration unit it has flat plates purposly so you can see the ribon
the circuit  will work on anything conductive size or shape doesnt matter

 

Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 16:22:04 pm
so dudley you are telling me the fields transmitted from a round tube  encased by another is the same type of field that is transmitted between 2 linear objects such as plates..

i would think that a round outer tube will have concaved  field lines while the inner would have expansive electric field line..

not sure how this would make a difference but i do believe there is a difference in reactions between the two's geometrical configurations.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 18:17:47 pm
if the electrical field is important after all. in the test report it is mentioned that the tubecell used 500W energy (12.5V x 40 Amps in, 4.4 Amps per tube), which is a lot but also a lot hydrogen. Nevertheless 4.4 Amps per tube is not pure electrical force obviously.

On the other side it's not mentioned how the power was measured (12.5V/40 Amps after the alternator or before?). most of the calculations for the tubecell (p. 60/61) don't make sense anyway.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 19:12:10 pm
all the electrode do is give an area for the electrical energy to exit the reaction is not of the surfaced of the electrode  cause their is no bubble formation on the electrode surface

some surfaces are better than other due to the fact the dont allow for electrical leakage

in stans history he used many types of cells   plates ,corrigate plates, tubes, spheres , cones

all the electrodes worked some just better than others due to  electrical leakage

that is why he started insulating electrodes

the 500 watts  mentioned in his tube cell in the report is just a flat out lie   
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 20:18:09 pm
outlaw, yea, as dudley says, all the shape does is contain the electric field differently, with plates you have a huge fringe effect at the edges which makes losses, with a tube you only have a fringe effect on the ends

stan insulated the back of his plates (you can see the are screwed to a acrylic plate), and later insulated the tubes in solid delrin, this focuses all the electric fields into the water gap to make it more efficient

a patent and TB and video says he tried spheres, but i have never seen any pictures of the actual devices, i would like to...
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 20:48:07 pm
ok so this set up will be appropriate for a tube cell then?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 02, 2009, 21:53:28 pm
you can hook this up to a tube cell, yes
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 03, 2009, 17:44:09 pm
the delrin case is on the bobbin as  a means of attaching the core to the box

the circuit will produce gas but not the amount you would think  it isnt an overunity because it uses 5 amps going into the inductor  which is restricted to 1.36  the  other 3.7 amps are wasted as heat  and magnetism of the core

the unit will get hot the reason the units are so tall is to make it take a long time  because the volume of water and metal are higher

Great to read you build this Demo Cell, dudley!

I'm thinking:
If you restrict to 1.36 amps and 3.7 amps are wasted as heat, you can design a better system if you know how this demo cell operates? So you didn't used plate cells, how can you adjust the gap size? Why plates? How to lower the current and raise voltage potentials between the plates? If you can adjust the gap size, you can match the plates (di-pole) with the choke and restrict more amps. Isn't that the purpose of this setup, to verify and demonstrate his invention and see that there is a difference between this setup and normal electrolysis process?

Sure you can connect all types of cells (voltage zones), but the choke must also be matched to the system. This choke was matched to operate with the adjustable plate cell.

Stan wrote that his system can produce lots of gas in the milli amp range and used Kilo volts. So he went from this design (lots of Amps, Voltage, gas) to a better one (less Amps, more Voltage, more gas).

I'm curious, what kind of tests have you performed more on it?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 03, 2009, 18:35:10 pm
Yea exactly, it would be good to build this, then modify your chokes to match your cell, and keep trying to improve the efficiency based on your results, you could add in a step up transformer to take that 4 amps and drop it down to 1/2 amp and then use your chokes to restrict that... even higher voltage... lots you could play with once you get the basic system going

and the variable plate gives you variable capacitance so if your tube cell capacitance is within the range of the plate cell capacitance then you could design chokes to match that particular gap, or any other you are thinking about trying.

Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 03, 2009, 19:38:29 pm
If you restrict to 1.36 amps and 3.7 amps are wasted as heat,
i dont know the circuit he used, but in a meyers type (series resonant) circuit there cannot be any amp losses.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 01:31:32 am
I'm so not concerned with circuit resonance as much as I am looking for the "Resonant Action" that happens between the plates. That's where the magic is. If it can be done with this demo cell, I would like to see it. Is it confirmed he could convert 5 gallons a minute with a 3 inch cell? I would pay money to see that!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 03:20:06 am
*5 gallons per hour

the plate cell won't do that much!

that cell is a phase lock loop resonant cell, with a pump pushing water through, probably pretty high voltages too
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 16:41:46 pm
Dudley , I would like to know how you are sure this is 'special electrolysis' and if ribbons did form with a closed tube set .

How can you be sure they were ribbons between tubes and was there electron phasing vs voltage across the tubes  ?

I would  like absolute confirmation that this was indeed different than regular electrolysis .

thx





Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 17:29:38 pm
well at one point i did use a 2 plate cell i have alot of cells that range from a 1 tube to 101 plate and you can see bubbles dont form on the electrodes  you could also see bubbles forming above the gap  lastly you can see  little mist shooting out off the water

when i used a meyers circuit i couldnt see anything because the circuit shown above dosent work as stated  their are components missing from the diagram



Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 17:39:13 pm
well at one point i did use a 2 plate cell i have alot of cells that range from a 1 tube to 101 plate and you can see bubbles dont form on the electrodes  you could also see bubbles forming above the gap  lastly you can see  little mist shooting out off the water

when i used a meyers circuit i couldnt see anything because the circuit shown above dosent work as stated  their are components missing from the diagram

May I ask what were those components lol?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 19:01:37 pm
well at one point i did use a 2 plate cell i have alot of cells that range from a 1 tube to 101 plate and you can see bubbles dont form on the electrodes  you could also see bubbles forming above the gap  lastly you can see  little mist shooting out off the water

when i used a meyers circuit i couldnt see anything because the circuit shown above dosent work as stated  their are components missing from the diagram

Can you be more precise what is missing from the diagram? And what doesn't work? What can we do about it to make it work?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 21:02:36 pm
scrs need a circuit to turn them off 

with the circuit shown in the diagram the circuit will turn on  and will stay on until the voltage goes back to zero again  which makes the circuit absolutly useless cause your doing the exact samething with the bridge rectifer without the circuit

their  are numerous ways to turn scrs off some are resonant turn off, commutation or reverse biasing the gate pin of the scr  crow baring  the possibilites  are endless  thats why their is no diagram of the scr network card

the circuit  card shows 4 opto coupler so their are more than likely  more than one scr  so the circuit  could be a  phase angle latching circuit

i have 7 phonebook size books on scr type circuit   none of the ones in the books

Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 21:56:58 pm
yes there was four opto's,but there was only one hooked up to the circuit.
The other three weren't hooked up,just mounted on the board
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 22:07:59 pm
were their 3 stud mounted diodes
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 22:55:41 pm
no,there was only one stud mounted diode on a heat sink in the left rear corner of the box beside the scr on it's own heat sink
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2009, 23:25:00 pm
the unit will not work  as described in the schematic that much is definate the scr will stay latched open till cycle ends

any form of scr turn of circuit needs at least 2 scr to turn off  when you wanted it to   

or  the unit would have to have 2 optocouplers hooked up  to one to turn on scr and one to reverse bias the gate turning scr off   making the scr  into  a GTO thyristor

the only other way is to crowbar from positive to negative which will blow that little scr to hell

my quess is some one took something out of the box 
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 05, 2009, 04:10:18 am
from what i thought i understood about scr is they need a  second scr to fire  as they call it back to back in order to shut a scr off in a standard load (amps)  from what i understand is one must drop current to turn off a scr ?so if there were enough impeadance in a coil would it not be able to shut it self off due to the fact the coil it is apply power to restrics current?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 05, 2009, 16:29:42 pm
the back to back method you mentioned is called inverse parralell    that circuit will not turn off with out forced commutation

yes outlaw the circuit will not turn off because of the retricted amp flow   also back emf will keep it latched open 

 the circuit would have probably some type of snubber   a large elctrolytic capacitor  and resistor  if it is only using one scr
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 05, 2009, 19:53:14 pm
So Dudley , what is the basic goal of that scr , to gate properly and to not interfere and cut a off beat wave ?

What did your circuit do anyways ,what was its purpose in detail plz ?

You said something about the voltage reaching zero , is there a  problem with that ?

Did you connect the  bifilar as shown in the diagram ? The 'scalar' type bifilar .
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2009, 00:30:18 am
the basic goal of the scr is to switch on and off

when i built the circuit as shown it did nothing. i gave up working on the circuit about a year ago  . i played with it for four months  i tried about 40 diffrent scr  methods each one created  a diffrent wave.

their are very few scr ciruits that involve one scr i tried all the ones i could find none did anything that would be considered great

i had a coil of close to what dynodon has described
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2009, 01:26:15 am
the basic goal of the scr is to switch on and off

when i built the circuit as shown it did nothing. i gave up working on the circuit about a year ago  . i played with it for four months  i tried about 40 diffrent scr  methods each one created  a diffrent wave.

their are very few scr ciruits that involve one scr i tried all the ones i could find none did anything that would be considered great

i had a coil of close to what dynodon has described

why ? ..

Ok it shouldnt be hard to switch something on and off  , what is the voltage going there seriously lol ?

OFC good synchro will be needed ... So what does it do when you get it pulsing right , wich is rather simple  , you were mentionning 'ripples' .

How did you see those ripples in a closed tube ?

What was production and power used @ source ?





Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 07, 2009, 04:36:08 am
Question: Is there anything "special" about this pulsing circuit, compared to say, a pulse generator, or a Jolt Circuit?

Because I have a Jolt Circuit (tho I never got it operational, because I'm inexperienced with that stuff, i'll play with it when I get a scope going), and I may be able to get my hands on an old Pulse Generator from my engineering lab (not sure if it still works but worth a try).


But then if I get the blocking diode, and build those chokes.... will I be in action?

I'm thinking I'll build a variable plate unit, I can see a lot of potential for good tests. I am thinking I would make the space-adjusting-device a lot simpler, by having a rotating knob come straight out the side.

In fact, I just decided to draw a picture of my first impression of how I would design the cell.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/VariableSpacingPlateCell.jpg)
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 28, 2009, 06:10:19 am
This isn't really on topic, but I just read this post and it caught my eye, so I want to save it, and i'll come back to it in the future

stevie1001 - i agree with you (that the VIC is a modified transformer).  I am new to the forum, and have been in researching mode for about 3 months now.  My theories are these:

1. the VIC is a modified "flyback (LOPT) transformer" - like those found in old B&W televisions
    1a. the modification being the chokes
2. the key to high gas production is resonance of an LRC circuit (the WFC being the capacitor and the FBT being the inductor).

My research and circuit modelling has been 100% dedicated to reproducing the following S.Meyer electronics:
1. The VIC
2. The PLL (phase locked loop)
3. The "resonance scanning circuit"
However, i am not doing this with a cell; this is pure modelling and trying to understand.  I am endeavoring to have complete working replicas of these circuits before attempting any water fracturing/electrolysis.  This may seem asinine to some, but it makes sense to me...


I currently have a working PLL circuit which will lock phase between 85Hz and 1040Hz.  This is way too low for use in a WFC, so I am currently working to expand the range since in a WFC we'll need something which can go to ~20-50KHz (and a FBT has a much more narrow freq range - unlike regular transformers).  ...I can put together a schmatic of my PLL and post if anyone is interested, but its usable freq range is limited.  Its basically a phase comparator, an op-amp, a voltage control oscillator (VCO), 4 resistors, and two capacitors.

Stan's "resonance scanning circuit" is my main focus - but i've had (very) limited sucess.  It's basically an AC sweep and a circuit which calculates the resonant freq of any LRC circuit where the capacitance of C is an unknown quantity.  Once the res freq is "found" it would then feed that back to the PLL which is connected to the VIC (aka FBT) primary winding.  Right now i am using fixed capacitor quanities in dedicated LRCs to test my RSCs on (not a WFC).

I have not done much to date with the VIC (beyond beliving it is a modified flyback transformer) and as such have begun to collect and dismantle old B&W television sets (when i come across them).

I believe the (left-side) schematic of the VIC in Stan's International Patent (I'm referring to the PCT World Intellectual Property Organization [WO 92/07861] document) looked (to me) strangely identical to a schematic of a flyback (LOPT) transformer I came across at:  http://www.powerlabs.org/flybackdriver.htm (http://www.powerlabs.org/flybackdriver.htm)

Then simply doing a goolge search for "flyback transformer", i got these links:
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flywda (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flywda)
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flyhft (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/flytest.htm#flyhft)

...some very interesting qualities in a FBT...

I remembered Stan lecturing (1st
lecture video on:  http://www.waterfuelcell.org/index.html (http://www.waterfuelcell.org/index.html)) on how the VIC worked, and he was talking about how industry has known for years that Voltage (not Amperage) can be made to do work.  He then cited CRTs and a particle accelerator.  So i said "hmmm".  Take a flyback transformer and then add some chokes to it...  the pickup winding on the flyback is connected to the PLL...?  Since a FBT "self-resonates", are we looking for the resonance of the WFC, or the VIC?!...  TBD...

In any event, sorry for being a "loiterer".  I was just researching - there is a lot of "misleading and/or junk" out there.  As i said, i have not actually built a cell yet; so hydrocars needn't worry about my stealing anything.  And i'm not trying to make any money on this - just trying to learn electronics and participate.

My main goal is to get a working "resonance scanning circuit" built - I promise to post anything I get to work.  I believe resonance is key, and since the capacitance in the WFC/LRC will always be variable due to physical configuration of the cell, contaminants in the water, consumption of water during gas production, and any other electronics in the LRC (including the VIC/FBT).  I believe the RSC circuit (and the PLL) are therefore key (to "high gas production").  Otherwise, it is just "efficient electrolysis" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing either...)


I am working these circuits b/c most attempts I've seen at S.Meyer reproductions are focused solely on the:  1) Cell, 2) VIC, 3) Alternator (or other power), 4) Pulse/Freq gererator (or other PWM).  ***but not the resonance***  I figured i would try to do something else to cover more ground...


also apologies in advance if i am redundantly covering anything already covered.  I'll admit i have not read through the entire forum...


If anyone happens to have both an unrectified FBT and a cell, i'd be extremely interested in seeing what kind of gas output you get from:  12VDC pulsed sq.wave 50% duty through the FBT into the cell (w/o chokes or any other electronics).  worst case - i'll end up trying this myself, but it'll be a while yet, since i still have to build a cell.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture30.png)
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 16:45:02 pm
More thoughts,

Why do I get the feeling that Stan successfully created/used longitudinal impulses to charge a di-pole.
These so called longitudinal impulses are actually TIME IMPULSES. When the pulse is shut off, the collapsed SPIKE is pure voltage potential with NO current. That is why it is virtually a straight line. You're converting work back into potential. Was the so called BLOCKING DIODE used to double the voltage potential and not the frequency?

I still do not believe that Stan used so called resonance to create large currents through the WFC. This explains that his WFC didn't get hot. Remember that batteries can be charged with only current (hot), but also with only voltage (cold). A battery is also a di-pole, just like a WFC.
The transformer creates high voltage pulses and sends these in a inductor, which is creating a SPIKE when high voltage pulse is shut off. Then charging the plates. When SPIKE hits the DIODE the SPIKE charges the plates again, thus doubles the potential. Because the plates must be hit equal, Stan used two identical inductors to SPIKE the plates (di-pole) the same but opposite voltage potential seen as inductor L2 is connected to ground?

I still can not see a KISS solution 8) how to connect the parts (FBT, CHOKE, WFC) and get them to resonate.

First, a FBT resonates on about 15kHz to generate 20-30kHz (BW 20kV) 1-30mA depending on load. So we are only using/consuming current in the primary. Could be 4Amps at 24V.
So if you PULSE the FBT into resonance, what kind of signal do we generate on the output? AC is it?

Second, when HV AC is fed into a HV LOW CURRENT DIODE, this signal is halve rectified, thus we generate pulsed DC. Then sending it into a choke. When pulse is shut off the choke is SPIKING big times, HV DIODE is blocking it...this doubles the voltage at the plates. Because HV DIODE is BLOCKING it, the step charging occurs...?

The main problem (of many other problems ::)):

Do we want to control the pulse into the FBT? YES. The FBT is resonating at 15kHz?
Do we want to control the pulse into the choke? YES/NO Is it also in resonance with the plates etc. ? Why did Stan use a PLL, to get efficient frequency...but where did het connected the PLL?

When the step charge occurs, the resistance of the water changes, so does this has effects on the FBT secondary load? When YES, the resonance frequency has changed and a PLL must adjust this frequency?

So Stan used voltage potential to charge the di-pole and stress the water dielectric to tear the water molecule apart and used no current at all. Gating was used to temporally stop the SPIKING (charging).

Does someone pulsed and gated a FBT and seen the output signal?

br,
webmug
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 18:09:26 pm
Good thoughts.

I think someone should try the above flyback circuit, and see what it does to a tube set, if it self resonates, then all you need is a gate.... maybe it'll work?

I wonder where the HV diode is in a flyback, and how to get it out!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 18:25:09 pm
Good thoughts.

I think someone should try the above flyback circuit, and see what it does to a tube set, if it self resonates, then all you need is a gate.... maybe it'll work?

I wonder where the HV diode is in a flyback, and how to get it out!

Do you want the DIODE out of the transformer? Is it a BLOCKING DIODE?
Most FBT work on mains voltage 110V/230V. It is possible to modify this FBT for 12V.
http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/fly/index.html

br,
webmug


Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 23, 2010, 23:45:52 pm
The resistor before the optocoupler, it's 100 ohms... but it's also 25 watts, 25 watts is huge for a resistor.

Does it really need to be this large?

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=10M5288&CMP=AFC-TL10000001

The closest thing I have on hand is a 204 ohm (measured, 220 marked) 20 watt resistor, it's white ceramic type material. Could this work?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 05:47:31 am
I've been doing some math, trying to figure out how I'm going to get this optocoupler set up.

The resistor that Stan uses... 100 Ohm Clarostat VP25K [$8.33] http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=10M5288&CMP=AFC-TL10000001

appears to be too low a value and too low a wattage rating.

Dynodon demonstrated the setup running up around 80 volts, which will put 800 mA through the H11D1 optocoupler, which is rated for 100 mA, so say 50% duty cycle, it's still getting 400 mA. Also that resistor, as large as it is at 25 watts, would be getting 64 watts.

Re-doing the math for what I would expect it to be, this should be a 1000 Ohm resistor, possibly missing a zero on the posted value?

This resistor, http://www.newark.com/ohmite/l25j1k0/power-resistor/dp/02F2291?matchedProduct=VP25K+1000&whydiditmatch=rel_default
listed as "Alternative for VP25K 1000" (compared to VP25K 100), is probably what is required.

This will give 100 mA to the opto at 100 volts, with 10 watts (now within the 25 watt rating), and 10 mA to the opto at 10 volts, the collector needs about 4 mA to work, so this would probably work fine from 10 volts to 100 volts on the variac.

Or... considering a 50% duty cycle all the time, we could drop the resistor value by half...

a 500 ohm resistor: http://www.newark.com/ohmite/l25j500/power-resistor/dp/02F2288
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 10:40:45 am
Did you notice the 100 Ohm Clarostat VP25K is a wirewound resistor compared to the other two you linked to are ceramic. Could the wirewound aspect make a difference in the circuit? Where is this resistor in the circuit? Between the op-amp and the optocoupler?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 12:48:35 pm
can someone explain what a longitudinal pulse would be?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 15:51:42 pm
The animation below depicts a longitudinal pulse in a medium.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 17:02:09 pm
Donald I don't think the opto is carrying the amps you see on the amp gauge.That power goes through the SCR.The opto is only triggering the SCR.The resistor just drops voltage down to within the range of the opto.Stan stated in a video I saw, in Stans collection, where he says it take 30 volts for the gas to start.
The part number for the resistor came off of it,so it's right.
Thats how I see it.
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2010, 17:55:15 pm
Ah yes, I see my mistake, I was assuming the full voltage would be across the resistor, but it's not, because it's not grounded anywhere there, it's only the voltage across the SCR which is much less.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture2-3.png)

So I can probably try my 204 Ohm 20 Watt resistor without too much trouble.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2010, 15:55:50 pm
I'm planning on using a ~10 A transistor out of an old power supply or computer, forget just where I got it.

Will this work fine compared to the SCR? What might the difference be?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2010, 16:23:56 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture15-5.png)

Just adding this to the collection of info on this set up. Here it shows the 30 volts required to start the EPP that Dynodon just mentioned.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2010, 20:24:30 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/StanMeyerCircuit.jpg)

Can't remember where this is from.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 16, 2010, 22:49:40 pm
That drawing is from the evaluation report.And no I don't think the transistor will work.The SCR is there for a reason.It has something to do with how they need to be switched on and off.It allows the 120hz line voltage to pass through as you cycle the trigger on an off with the frequency generator.If you stray from the original,It's not going to work the same if at all.
Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2010, 00:52:15 am
Also the variacs nuetral or ground is connected threw, its not isolated I believe.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2010, 02:41:35 am
Ok, I'll have to learn more about that then,

What about this set up, It has a DC input, which made me think of a smoothing cap after the bridge, then he has a Transistor, the box that says voltage amplitude control, i'm not sure what that would be since it is a DC setup, you would have to be pulsing it then through a transformer then through a smoothing cap to change the DC voltage again. I guess this one might be suited for a 12 volt car battery.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture14-3.png)
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2010, 02:50:53 am
In any of Stan's designs he never uses a smoothing cap. In fact he has made statements as to the signal not being smoothed. The picture above is somewhat misrepresenting the power input. Even though the box is labeled after the DC input it will still be a variable transformer and a bridge. Don't let the drawing confuse you, the way it is drawn is backwards. Yet, it is just a block diagram not to be confused with a detailed schematic.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 17, 2010, 03:48:31 am
Ok, thank you for the explanation, I think I am going to re-read some patents again and gather some more details
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 18, 2010, 16:08:25 pm
would a range of 0-10,000 Hz with intervals of 10 Hz be good enough?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 16:47:45 pm
depends on the values. you can measure the wfc-capacity WITHOUT water with a RLC meter (be sure to short it first so there is no voltage across it) and then multiply it by 80 to have a rough estimate. The coil inductance is also measurable.
Then calculate the resonant frequency, it may be off several thousand hertz but it gives you a range to work with.

Also does anyone know how much amps the plate cell consumes at a specific voltage / frequency? Dynodon said something about that in the second video but i couldn't understand it.
The use of decade counters and so on isn't necessary anymore, it's not state of the art and it won't perform magic. Interesting that Stan advised to not use filter caps. I will remove them from my device.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 19:03:21 pm
According to the data sheets on decade counters they are good into the megahertz range.  I'm all ears as to what a state of the art circuit that would do similarly synchronizing a moderate sine or square wave on the front end with a much faster switch on the back end.  It seems Stan carried over the decade counters from his original circuit to the pll circuit so there must be a reason for that.  Hopefully the answers will be forthcoming soon.

Andy
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 20:43:47 pm
depends on the values. you can measure the wfc-capacity WITHOUT water with a RLC meter (be sure to short it first so there is no voltage across it) and then multiply it by 80 to have a rough estimate. The coil inductance is also measurable.
Then calculate the resonant frequency, it may be off several thousand hertz but it gives you a range to work with.

Also does anyone know how much amps the plate cell consumes at a specific voltage / frequency? Dynodon said something about that in the second video but i couldn't understand it.
The use of decade counters and so on isn't necessary anymore, it's not state of the art and it won't perform magic. Interesting that Stan advised to not use filter caps. I will remove them from my device.

What about filter caps , My power supply has these to keep the dc straight ?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 11, 2010, 20:48:14 pm
the circuit of the plate cell is apparently working from half-wave dc or |ac| and not straight dc. will test both when the mosfets arrive.



@ decade counters: probably mikrocontrollers can do the job as one ic block without the need for a large circuit board with resistors and caps and so on. but this would be for later anyway, after one can replicate the proof of concept device (tubecell or plate cell).
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 12, 2010, 17:48:02 pm
Dankie, in cases like these, the perfect sine wave or smoothing with caps does not apply and defeats the main purpose of the signal. Listen through a speaker the difference between a square wave and a sine wave or even a sawtooth wave. The square wave has the sharpest and most pronounced sound, does it not?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 22:22:44 pm
Borrowed some 18 gage wire from the Motor Repair Shop, Here are some of my cores i'll be playing with:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture3-6.png)

And I wound the Resonant Charging Chokes just as Dynodon described.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture4-4.png)

Should have everything hooked up soon, I need to pick up a few more parts.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 22:55:44 pm
Looking great Donald.. :)

Hope you see some nice scopeshots!


Steve
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 19, 2010, 22:57:48 pm
I don't have a scope yet, but I'll probably get one this summer.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 09, 2010, 16:37:35 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/plateviccopy.jpg)

NEW VIDEO:

This is Figure 8XA: Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) from page 22 of the International Independent Test Evaluation Report. The Cell being used is a smaller version of Exhibit E2: Tubular Cluster Array from page 28.

The circuit functions. The gas production results are yet to be evaluated.
The small meter is for amps, the big meter is for volts, measured as indicated in Figure 8XA
The SCR being used is a ECG 5418, and operates fine, with no latching issues. D1 has not been used, but it still works.

This is distilled water, however the purity is questionable.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 09, 2010, 19:53:28 pm
Power consumption is not 12 W - many times more!
siwa
I mean is not 12 W in your video Don
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 10, 2010, 02:34:48 am
Power consumption for Stan is 80 volts * 5 amps = 400 watts for this set up.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture15-5.png)

I'll be sorting out my results soon enough.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 10, 2010, 04:00:33 am
Added D1, it appears that when I go above 50 volts, the choke stops making noise, so maybe the SCR is latching, and dropping the voltage just a bit will bring it back.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 04:09:42 am
well done donald thanks so much for sharing some videos!!  are you controlling the gating with stans circuit that goes along with 8XA or are you using another circuit to gate the scr?
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 04:33:53 am
just a pulsing circuit, no gating there
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 06:09:31 am
tell me what you think of this device donald.. we should be able to hook the gat of a scr right to these and have like 5hz-10mhz pulse range with gating i think..

http://cgi.ebay.com/Datapulse-101-Systron-Donner-10MHz-Pulse-Generator-/370386664122?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Signal_Sources&hash=item563cc3faba
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 06:18:39 am
looks like it might work for a test set up, eventually you will need pll, not too expensive, give it a try if you want!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 06:42:16 am
just grabbed one for 53 bucks and will be here in around 4-7 days..  im gonna get some scr's and the parts to wire up my new variable next.. i also have a delrin bobbin and some 18 gauge i can wind on it as well as a ferrite e-core.. then i have the single resonant cavity
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 09:15:16 am
nice work!
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 12, 2010, 17:05:42 pm
(http://i.ebayimg.com/18/!BoywwRQ!Wk~$(KGrHqYH-D4Eu,Uf!0ErBLo5TrDy(g~~_35.JPG)



thought i would throw a pic of it up so people can see the possible useful tool for playing with gating

    * 10Hz to 10MHz repetition rate
    * Pulse delay of 40 ns to 10 ms
    * 0.5 to 10V output into 50-ohms
    * Rise Time: 5 ns
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2010, 01:05:52 am
i completed my order of componets.. got a couple different optos, some scr's and the stuff to complete my variable source transformer conections such as a inline thermal 10 amp breaker, neon indicator light, a standard house socket for output

i plan to connect the pulse generator to a opto and have the opto drive the gate signal of the scr so i have the isolation betwween the hv and my pulse gen..

donald i love the videos.. in the second one have you noticed how the voltage is climbing in sync with the ringing on the video? also how once the voltage step up to around 12.3 volts productions kicks on as if you just turned on the switch..


check out whats going on in new mexico the 29th of next month..
http://teslatech.info/ttevents/2010conf/program2010.pdf
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 13, 2010, 03:09:39 am
the loudness increases as the amps increase because the coil is vibrating with a stronger force
i don't adjust the frequency until the end of the video
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 07, 2010, 22:43:31 pm
I have a question about the 8XA circuit. Ok all the IC's (555, 7490, 7404) use 5V, so what was the 12V from the power supply for??
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 08, 2010, 02:17:35 am
According to the picture you drew, they use 12 volt and the 5 volt goes to the last chip?



Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 08, 2010, 02:34:37 am
yea when I drew that up, it was before I took any electronic classes. The 555 can handle the 12V but the 7404 and 7490's are 5V. I've hooked up 12V to my pulsing circuit before but the 7404 and  7490's got warm so I just went back to 5V.  If you the 12V were to run the IC's then what would the 5V before? Ya know what I mean? lol  I really think we are missing something here with this circuit.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 08, 2010, 11:25:26 am
its a mistake on the print i believe they make a 5 volt 555 timer called the tlc555 or somthing like that... you gotta get that one and the circuit is 5v..  there is also a revised version of the circuit that dydnodon posted when he was working with the guy selling the car..
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 14, 2011, 14:41:14 pm
Hi guys
 
I want to build the 8XA circuit but can't find the components suggested, I found a diode 1N1186 or a DSI35-08 it's a 800V 49 amp, a H11D3 only 200V.
Would those work instead of the others?
 
Thx :)
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 15, 2011, 10:09:08 am
Hi,
I am trying to replicate the 8XA variable plate setup but run into problems with the SCR. The GEC35M is no longer available so i am using a 2N6403G SCR instead. This has kind of the same properties as the original GEC35M used. The problem is however that the circuit only works on frequencies below the source frequency but above that the SCR just stays in the "ON" state and does not turn off anymore. With source frequency i mean 100Hz, ... as in 50 Hz AC rectified gives a 100Hz DC pulse. So below the 100 Hz the SCR turns on and of and i see gating hapening on the 100 Hz dc source. When i get above the 100 Hz i would expect the rectified ac pulses been split up into seperate pulses accoording to the pulse frequency. Anybody having the same problem? Have others been able to make the SCR switch above 100/120 Hz and split the rectified AC pulses in parts?


Regards,
Sharky
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 15, 2011, 10:14:27 am
@scalance
- The diode you mention is way over dimensioned, a 400V/16A would be more than enough.
- The H11D1 is still available at some suppliers but if you can not get them, ... i also use a MOC3043 optocoupler as a replacement


Regards,
Sharky
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 15, 2011, 16:38:42 pm
@ Sharky (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1940)
thx verry much for your reply bro, I found a spanish site and my ant will send them for me from there, but instead of SCR C38M I will use ECG5418 it's a SCR 400V 10A think it's enought too cause the cell will be only drawing  5A .
 
I tried to do the same thing as the 8XA using a 220v 32w bulb, 2 bridge rectifiers (one to rectify 110v from the transformer and the other as a blocking diode) it workes for a while I was happy with the results I got, but the day after I try it again and after a while the transformer and the bridge working as rectifier burnt out, I think this because the refctifier was not enought to handle it's a one found on an old pc power, but the one I used as blokcing diode is a 50A and still works.
 
I'm going to buy a new transfo and an other 50A bridge to rectify 110v this time and see if it's gonna handle this time.
Title: Re: Demonstration Cell - Variable Spacing Plate Cell
Post by: Login to see usernames on June 15, 2011, 22:23:58 pm
Nothing better than answering your own questions ....  ::)  An SCR will stay in the on status as long as the current does not fall below the holding current, ... even if the gate pulses are removed. Thus the seen effect that the SCR does not split the rectified AC wave into parts since during the wave there is still current so the SCR will not switch off. To make this work either the 8XA circuit is not complete (missing turning of circuit or second SCR) or there must be a GTO Thyristor used instead of an SCR. Any opinions on this??
Regards,
Sharky