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Projects by members => Projects by members => Webmug => Topic started by: webmug on November 02, 2009, 19:51:36 pm

Title: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 02, 2009, 19:51:36 pm
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High Voltage Circuit VIC - Updated 18/12/2009:
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Factors to consider in my mind:

-Sharp pulses (<< rise-time) sharp pulses more EM field generated

-Pulse frequency (f1)  Resonance Frequency of the primary coil! Max. AC voltage from coil.

-Gate frequency (f2) Frequency for optimal water molecule pulling/tearing (gap size depended) HHO production? Don't know if gating modulated over pulse will work on primary coil? Require more start current when used this type of gating. Maybe we must use external gating for this?

-Duty cycle pulse (f1) (+40%-+60%) -50/+50% Optimal Electron Bouncing Effect in the choke (controlling feedback current)

-Duty cycle gate (f2) for optimal water molecule pulling/tearing (gap size depended) HHO production?

-Voltage input Amplitude (primary coil step-up transformer) (T1) (more voltage more HV more and faster HHO production larger EM fields) but develops more current in the primary coil.

-T1 step-up factor (generate HV from LV)

-T1 inductance

-T1 resistance

-Choke (L1-L2) bifilar

-L1=L2 inductance (>>10H?) higher means lower resonance frequency, higher capacitance, larger WFC resonance bandwidth, simpler to adjust (pulse/gate).

-L1=L2 resistance (11k6Ohm?) higher potentials, lower currents.

-Core type (iron, laminated) EI-core!

-WFC cell adjustable gap size (determines HV necessary to pull the water molecule apart, resistance factor in series with choke) .

-WFC pipe/plate length/height (voltage zones skin-effect).

-DIODE High Voltage Low current (20kV /10mA)
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I want to share this info...

I tested a simple made toroid coil with ferrite core. I connected this to my new PWM pulser, controlled with micro-controller. The difference I saw in compare of my 555 pulser is that this coil has now High Voltage as output. Use of the 555 pulser signal had no HV!!!

I think this has occurred: because of the extra sharp pulses (rise-time) from the PWM the core reacts different to the sharp pulses.
Sharp pulses are important. Duty cycle of pulse signal was 5% at low frequency to restrict amps. 50% and I have no HV at secondary only amps consumer. ;D

@warp
When I use this secondary coil winding and connect (positive) to diode to my +WFC and (negative) to -WFC, the voltage drops to zero on the scope, but when I short the (-WFC) lead to the (+WFC) I can see sparks, so little current at HV is flowing through the WFC cell. No bubbles are detected in the cell.
So I think I have work to do, make a bigger step-up coil, and bif-chokes at a designated resonance frequency adapted for this WFC cell. lol :-\

One thing that works is my micro-controller controlled PWM. ;D

br
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 02, 2009, 20:14:14 pm
I see resonance on your scope from your secondary, It dies, Resonance doesn't last forever.

2 Neat Tricks Exist for gaining Hv across your cell. You need 2 tools.

1. A fluresent lamp, "This is used to confirm voltage adjasent from the diode." And positive lead of cell.
2. Your fingers, Your fingers in parallel with the choke. This is used to detect shocks emited from the choke.

My choke works just above the shock region, where RF is usually emitted from the choke.

The choke restricts amps to the fuel cell, Without it, it is possible to short the secondary abusing the primary. With it, Diodes stays cold, primary winding stays healthy.

When the choke is placed in the circuit, A Lamp is Then used to check for voltage on the Positive terminal. If there is no voltage at the positive terminal it is either due to Freq, Or wrong choke core. The Lamp always detects voltage opposite from the diode, just before the choke,, Even if no choke is used. If you have no voltage there, your step up is weak, Or, check your diode type.

There is always voltage at the negative terminal, Grab a lamp to confirm this. The Trick is getting voltage to the positive terminal just after the diode, Once you gain voltage there, you now have hit a high voltage zone and the circuit is functioning properly.

See my other post about how I compare a magnetron to a choke.

Facts, When a coils connection is Broken Hv is emitted, high amp discharge. This is out ignition coils work.

When points open, the condenser absorbs the shock keeping the points from burning away, It is possible that when you broke the connection is when you seen the arc, its possible the cell wasn't aborbing the blow, Maybe because to wide of gap or series wired.

Without the Choke, you will not read Hv across the cell, voltage will drop to a charged 2 volts and about 2 volts will be read in the Milliamps. It is when the power is removed voltage starts to take over, its then when the chokes are at resonance.

The important thing to do is Probe the choke leads, it is the most important component.
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 02, 2009, 22:53:39 pm
Webmug,measure those resonance ripples in the off duty cycle.That is the frequency that your system wants to resonate at.Tune into that frequency and then see what happens to your voltage.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 02, 2009, 23:14:28 pm
Nice, webmug! Very nice!

Steve
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 06, 2009, 19:18:47 pm
@Dynodon
Thanks for the advice, I check as soon as possible. The control software can go to 5kHz max. at this moment due to pulse precision. Lower frequency better pulse precision.  I must reprogram the PWM software. I checked the frequency in the OFF pulse on the scope.

@Warp
I'm making a new transformer step-up coil and a Biflair choke (copper). I want to see what's happening with the choke in this nice circuit. Testing how to connect the Bif to use/re-use the EM fields.
When I check for HV before or after the diode (between transformer and choke) with FL, the FL is not lit. there is no HV when a choke is connected. Connected to the choke the FL is lit.
To much things to test at this moment.

What I think:
No voltage potential is measured over the WFC di-pole, but when seen from the ground there is +HV and -HV is that correct? But when the WFC is charged the capacitive value is changed so you can measure a potential. Lets assume there is +1200 volt and due to changed value -900 volt. Now we measure 300 volts over the cell. The +/- potentials must be maintained equal in opposite value to get the voltage to take over at the stainless di-poles. This potential can go beyond 20kV till your chokes blow, see it as a valve. It charges the WFC di-poles and tears the water molecules apart.
When tearing or pulling occurs we can adjust the gating frequency or and the primary transformer voltage to speed up or slow it down, thus adjust the gas output a.k. "Thermal Explosive Energy-Yield"

I'll try to make a new step-up transformer (no toroid) 1:13 primary 22AWG / secondary 26AWG. Choke biflair 22AWG 850wnd (no toroid) .
That's what I have at this moment. I think of placing s/s rods into the coils. One I-core glue them and spray water on it to get it to rust is also better to prevent Eddy Currents=loss of energy.
These coils can go on ferrite, iron cores too. What kind of difference is made when I-core or UU-cores are used has to be tested, I think UU-core make a nice magnetic loop? What SM did was to take the Bif-choke to restrict current and that he connected them in series on a Bobbin Cavity, restrict more. The Transformer was wind under the Bif-chokes in the same EM field so called multi-layered coil on a Bobbin iron laminated core (to prevent Eddy Currents=loss of energy)

Well that's just my mind-fart guys... ::)

TO ALL:
Who made/used a choke of (430F/FR s/s) 36AWG (.006inch) 11k6Ohms 189wnd similar used by SM. Described in the WFC memo 426 and tried to replicate.
Has somebody seen the effects measured with a scope on other chokes in THE circuit? Not in theory, but the real thing.

Please post your results/findings on this nice forum and we try to replicate the "Electron Bounce Effect".
I know it was used for the water-injectors (small). I guess it's also possible to apply it on a normal SM WFC cell (big)

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 06, 2009, 19:24:46 pm
do not forget stan center tapped his secondary also.

Yes, you can read high voltage across the cell when no ground is present. Google isolated ground vs ground, Not sure what it does myself but it has an effect.
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 06, 2009, 19:53:58 pm
do not forget stan center tapped his secondary also.

Yes, you can read high voltage across the cell when no ground is present. Google isolated ground vs ground, Not sure what it does myself but it has an effect.

Center Tap creates opposite voltage potential +POS and Tap (secondary neutral) and -NEG from the secondary transformer windings when windings are equal, necessary for charging the di-pole through the chokes.

When HV present over WFC, then there is perhaps no equal opposite voltage potential. The transformer and or choke are not equal wound? Potential is ZERO?
Seen from Tap there is +HV and -HV?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 07, 2009, 01:42:28 am
Webmug I think you are right on track!
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 09, 2009, 18:47:39 pm
My new step-up transformer 2x90 wnd primary 22AWG / 2x1000 secondary 26AWG center tap.
Choke bifilar (22AWG 850wnd and 26AWG 850wnd)
50 s/s rods into the two coils as core.

I got HF over the WFC cell and little bubbles are created, nothing serious! ;)

When I connect the FL lamp between +WFC and -WFC it does not glow, when I put my finger in the middle of the FL it does glow from finger to -WFC and +WFC connections. When I let go it stops glowing. When I only connect the FL to the +WFC and put my finger on it in the middle it glows from +WFC to my finger opposite with the -WFC connection.

Looks like i have NEG and POS voltage over the FL lamp.

It is obvious that my chokes are not restricting current at the moment. That's what I have to figure out now and get resonance in the choke first. When I know the resonance frequency and see it on a scope I make a step-up transformer with the same resonance frequency and fiddle with the PWM signals (duties, gate, pulse) and input amplitude voltage and get the total coils in resonance.
When I have that figured out, I have to match the impedance of the total (WFC connected) system. I think then the 430F s/s wire is needed, to match the WFC capacitance to get WFC and choke in resonance. I hope the gap size of 1mm  (1.524-0.254mm) is small enough to match on. A pickup coil can also be used, to see if the system is in resonance, when not frequencies must be altered.

Basic first thing I do is fiddle with a choke right now, then we go a little step further. ;D

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 09, 2009, 19:37:56 pm
I'd suggest a smaller simpler VIC to play with first, stan talks about more than 1000 volts with only 100 turns on the chokes, it's not a step up ratio that makes the voltage, it's inductive reactance

You got 90:1000, is 1:11, so at 12 volts you get 133 volts, then into your huge chokes, but if your chokes are not neat the the wire wont lie exactly next to each other and be the same length, would be must easier to play with 100 turns than 850!!

You could try
P: 200 turns
S: 600 turns
Choke 1: 100 turns
Choke 2: 100 turns

These are the numbers from the fuel gas patent

sounds fun though :)
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 18, 2009, 22:07:32 pm
A little update,

I have tested resonance on my STEP-UP transformer coil, here are a few scope shots...
As you can see, my PULSE signal is not perfect and you see a little ripple on the secondary coil output signal.

One coil 2x90 wnd primary 22AWG / 2x1000 secondary 26AWG center tap no s/s core used, when used more amps are drawn.

Basic configuration:
Primary 2x90 series connected (180wnd) 22AWG
Secondary 1x1000 connected 26AWG

Upp in=15V DC PULSE
du=~55%
I in=0.3-0.44Amps
resonance frequency = ~126kHz
Upp out=~650-690V

This is just a little test to see what happens when resonance occurs, guess most people here already have seen it.

Can someone explain the DIODE used as a frequency doubler? ;D
And what could happen when this signal is going into the bifilar choke?

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 23, 2009, 21:14:11 pm
Ok,

I connected a bifilar choke to secondary winding. In-between a diode.
When STEP-UP coil is in resonance, AC signal is generated, see above.

First I had no core in the coils, AC signal is generated on resonance frequency... So now inserted a few SS rods into the STEP-UP transformer. Generates a AC signal, different resonance frequency.

Then connected a separated (other core) bifilar choke with a few SS rods (need more, but takes time to cut). PULSE duty-cycle +50% GATE duty-cycle +100%... AC signal at lower resonance frequency!

Now adjusting the GATE duty-cycle +30% low frequency...as you can see, there is little step-charge and a big current generated in the OFF GATE PULSE!!! My current is 0..30mA @15V. FL lamp is ON.

Don't know at this moment why there is still AC signal on the WFC, assuming there must be DC step-charge???
I think that my choke has low resistance. Need to make one with smaller wire and more windings.

Nice to see this effect.

Update:
Add picture of my choke L1-L2 bifilar, I made two of them. Top one was connected.

Br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 23, 2009, 22:41:56 pm
webmug,now your seeing what I'm seeing.An AC sine wave when at resonance.
I am generating the same kind of signal,but at 4kv peak to peak.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 23, 2009, 23:06:06 pm
that would be the right waveform if it was rectified? (light blue) is the diode not keeping it DC?

i understand the voltage is not acting as expected... but I'm wondering how to fix it?

I noticed with the 3 phase rotary vic, your voltage will have an overlap, so this will (should) inherently prevent it from swinging past ground as the next phase caries it over
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 23, 2009, 23:08:46 pm
Ok,

I connected a bifilar choke to secondary winding. In-between a diode.
When STEP-UP coil is in resonance, AC signal is generated, see above.

First I had no core in the coils, AC signal is generated on resonance frequency... So now inserted a few SS rods into the STEP-UP transformer. Generates a AC signal, different resonance frequency.

Then connected a separated (other core) bifilar choke with a few SS rods (need more, but takes time to cut). PULSE duty-cycle +50% GATE duty-cycle +100%... AC signal at lower resonance frequency!

Now adjusting the GATE duty-cycle +30% low frequency...as you can see, there is little step-charge and a big current generated in the OFF GATE PULSE!!! My current is 0.30mA @15V. FL lamp is ON.

Don't know at this moment why there is still AC signal on the WFC, assuming there must be DC step-charge???
I think that my choke has low resistance. Need to make one with smaller wire and more windings.

Nice to see this effect.

Br,
Webmug

Thanks for sharing these nice scope shots, Webmug!

Steve
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 01:49:07 am
webmug,thats where I'm at now.Wondering if the diode isn't stopping the reverse voltage,and making ac.I'm thinking that the diode isn't closing for the reverse voltage because the current is too low.Diodes only work in stopping current flow,not voltage.Do we have enough current flow to cause the diode to block?I'm looking into that now.May need a different type/size diode for low current high voltage.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 02:32:33 am
That is a great example of resonance damping .

Very similar to the hydrox refill  patent .

I think the missing element is the physical ringing of the cell .


feature=related

feature=related
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 03:24:15 am
notice the sine wave starts off with the sine wave dominantly in the negative field then notice it is a little more then the positive on each consecutive cycle.. then notice how when the pulse stops you get a high swing to positive..
somthing about that has to do with the building of the displacement?  once the primary is switched of and there is no longer an external field then the displaced potental seems to show the high positive as it goes for equilibrium (0v) due to newtons laws whats in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an external force (resistance, attactrion, repulsion)..   the displacement is a potential that has been built up no different then the force of gravity itself..  so could we say that an electron is matter  and applies with newtons laws? 
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 09:25:40 am
webmug,thats where I'm at now.Wondering if the diode isn't stopping the reverse voltage,and making ac.I'm thinking that the diode isn't closing for the reverse voltage because the current is too low.Diodes only work in stopping current flow,not voltage.Do we have enough current flow to cause the diode to block?I'm looking into that now.May need a different type/size diode for low current high voltage.
Don

Yes, you may be correct on the type of diode.
The diode I used now has 3Amps rating.
Because of low current the diode does not block.
I think we could use HV diodes used in microwaves.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/45/45545_2.pdf

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 13:25:12 pm
Diode or not, that is a discovery .

50/50 isnt always good . Tuneable duty is a must to start the ringing  .
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 16:03:07 pm
In Stans resonant cell,there is no way that cell will ever ring.Both tubes are locked down solid.The outer tube is covered in derin,and the inside tube is supported top and bottom,it will  never ring!
Keep thinking though
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 24, 2009, 17:03:10 pm
But the puharich cell and the hydroxyl refilling have the elements ringing physically .

I dont consider the Stan Meyers cell the perfect and most advanced design .
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 29, 2009, 00:05:47 am
@Dynodon

Don, have you considered to rectifie the HV AC signal (Vpp) from the resonating STEP-UP transformer?

Then we could have HV pulsed DC (+POS) signal.  ::)

This signal is going through the HV DIODE (De-Q-ing diode??? :o) and into the (L1-L2) CHARGING choke.

I think full HV rectifier bridge could work, since we GATE this signal to CHARGE it with only DC (+POS) potential.

If this works with DC(+POS) voltage, it could also be equal opposite DC(-NEG) voltage.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 29, 2009, 16:07:41 pm
webmug,I am looking into that exact thing right now.Just rectifing HV then switching it.But the problem comes into play of finding a HV mosfet that can handle the 2kv or higher.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 29, 2009, 16:39:48 pm
webmug,I am looking into that exact thing right now.Just rectifing HV then switching it.But the problem comes into play of finding a HV mosfet that can handle the 2kv or higher.
Don

Don, aren't you switching already the STEP-UP transformer in resonance with the PULSE frequency using a MOSFET (fixed gate-voltage Vmax @12V from PWM signal generator) with variable Voltage DC (0..30V) on the primary coil?
I'm measuring HV AC (Vpp) on the secondary coil.

Problem/solution:
Rectify this HV AC to HV POSITIVE UNIPOLAR VOLTAGE (4 HV diodes needed).

I assume GATE frequency/duty on the primary coil STEP-UP transformer (already in resonance due PULSE frequency) is used to (resonate) CHARGE the choke and WFC.

Result in GATING the HV POSITIVE UNIPOLAR VOLTAGE is to create a pulse train from the STEP-UP coil.

So you don't need to pulse HV with a MOSFET.

Update:
Signals from transformer. First thing I would like to see is signal Fig A)1) converted into Fig A)4) going into the CHOKE.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 29, 2009, 22:07:18 pm
Under "Electrodynamics"
Analog Circuit Simulator Applet
Demonstrates various electronic circuits.
http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,857.msg7864.html#msg7864

Run this Java program --> http://www.ionizationx.com/circuit/index.html <--

Import this code into the program and see how the capacitor reaction in the CHOKE looks like connected to WFC and the use of the BLOCKING DIODE.

====================Begin===================
$ 1 5.0E-6 6.01975421667673 52 5.0 50
T 384 128 480 128 0 0.2019 1.0 0.005562787066292237 0.005562787066947436
c 512 128 512 224 0 1.62E-10 -90.03223836134137
c 352 128 352 224 0 1.62E-10 -90.03223836100754
w 352 128 384 128 0
w 480 128 512 128 0
w 384 224 352 224 0
w 480 224 512 224 0
w 240 128 240 32 0
w 512 32 512 128 0
w 320 128 352 128 0
w 544 224 512 224 0
170 128 128 80 128 2 89940.0 90990.0 5.0 0.1
w 320 128 320 368 0
T 240 128 128 128 0 1.0 0.01 -4.2327252813834093E-16 -363.7470027251377
d 240 32 352 32 0
w 352 32 512 32 0
w 240 224 352 224 0
g 128 224 128 272 0
c 320 416 544 416 0 5.0E-8 -314.81269499291193
w 544 368 544 416 0
w 320 416 320 368 0
r 544 368 320 368 0 100000.0
w 480 224 480 160 0
w 384 224 384 160 0
w 240 160 240 224 0
w 128 208 128 160 0
w 128 224 128 208 0
r 544 224 544 336 0 0.1
w 544 336 544 368 0
o 18 64 0 99 1280.0 0.1 0 -1
=========================End======================

It's not my code or program!!! Try and fiddle with this program, especially the Frequency Sweep Generator frequency bandwidth to see voltage @ the WFC.

Remember it's only a simulator. ;D

br
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 29, 2009, 22:53:02 pm
i'm pretty sure stevie also hosts this tool on this site
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2009, 00:48:49 am
webmug,I'm just looking to bypass the step up transformer all together.Just start with HV DC and switch it,and send that through the chokes to the cell.
But yes right now I'm pulsing the Meyer step up/choke coils now.But I'm just getting an AC swing to the cell.
And yes,your drawings are right on the money,exactly
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2009, 01:04:01 am
The AC signal is coming from the back emf?  And the chokes are wired parallel what happens when they are wired anti-parallel?  Isn't that what Stan indicated?  I've tried the chokes both ways only difference I noticed is the coil buzzed in parallel configuration.  I haven't tried a step up transformer yet.  The time I did the pwm I was using started buzzing so I turned it off. 

Andy
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 13, 2009, 10:55:27 am
Update,

I want to show my new VIC coil that I made. Because I have no lathe, I made it on cardboard ;D
Thanks to dynodon for the VIC specs.

If you want HV, do it this way!

Specs of the VIC coil:

Primary
2x110 wound 0,6mm

Secondary
No cavities yet
2x2255 wound 0,15mm

Choke
BIF1 2298 wound 0,15mm
BIF2 2298 wound 0.15mm
4cm 12 cavities

Input
12V DC 300mAmps

Output
Measure +1000 V over WFC FL lamp lit. No gas yet!

Also I'm building a adjustable plate cell, so I can match on the VIC choke.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 14:54:49 pm
Hey guys,

I finished my adjustable plate cell.
I used two plates with dimensions of 40mm x 100mm stainless 316L. The gap is adjustable from 0,1mm to 10mm.

If my calculations are correct I must have a WFC cell capacitance of C=2,83nF with 1mm watergap.
My VIC internal choke has about 26,6mH inductance so resonance frequency must be f.res2=18,3kHz.

As aspected my VIC step-up transformer wouldn't resonate on the same frequency (f.res1) as (f.res2), so it never will 'ring' with my VIC internal choke resonance frequency (f.res2). So I have no High Voltage on this WFC cell resonant circuit to do tests on, must figure out how to get HV working.

I also used HV DIODE 20kV / 10mA, these also don't work in the LV circuit, YET!!!

Again, more tests to do... ::)

@steve
I hope to try and test the LC circuit without a solid capacitor! Just choke and WFC.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 15:06:07 pm
Sounds great, wegmug. If you cannot find resonance, you always can use an external cap and use the wfc as resistor.

Lego forever!

Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 15:17:07 pm
Sounds great, wegmug. If you cannot find resonance, you always can use an external cap and use the wfc as resistor.

Lego forever!

 ;D
Yep, that's an option!

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 21:23:07 pm
Lego WFC, brilliant!

Nice work!

do you mean an external cap in series? if so...
I don't think you can use an external cap to make the wfc resonate properly, the reason is that you have two resonant charging chokes, each resonanting with one side of the cell, or it is resonanting on/from both sides of the cell at the same time, as well as you need equal and opposite voltage on each plate, so if you add a cap and use the wfc as a resistor then it will change the point at which you are resonating about, and have different voltage on each plate.

if you used two identical caps on each side of the wfc in series with the chokes then you could get it to resonate on both sides with that

or if you used your external cap in parallel with the cell that might work
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 21:29:35 pm
i agree with donald .. brillant idea  webmug!!
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 21:55:43 pm
i started searching  for a plastic vise and i came across one that has the product label-- Mini Plastic Vise for use with Water    haha

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/zon/zon37-210.htm
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 21:58:58 pm
Lego WFC, brilliant!

Nice work!

do you mean an external cap in series? if so...
I don't think you can use an external cap to make the wfc resonate properly, the reason is that you have two resonant charging chokes, each resonanting with one side of the cell, or it is resonanting on/from both sides of the cell at the same time, as well as you need equal and opposite voltage on each plate, so if you add a cap and use the wfc as a resistor then it will change the point at which you are resonating about, and have different voltage on each plate.

if you used two identical caps on each side of the wfc in series with the chokes then you could get it to resonate on both sides with that

or if you used your external cap in parallel with the cell that might work

I think the two plates acts like one capacitor, thus choke coil L1 and (LEGO) WFC forms one series LC(R) circuit.
The L2 choke coil is also connected to the WFC but in opposite direction from L1, so it forms also a LC(R) circuit but magnetically coupled to L1 choke coil, so it resonates at the same frequency used for L1. It's extremely important that the L1-L2 choke coils are identical, so current is being restricted.

If a external capacitor is used then it must be parallel connected to WFC. But then the WFC is not preforming at max.

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 22:00:56 pm
i started seaching for a plastic vise and i cam acros one that has the product label-- Mini Plastic Vise for use with Water    haha

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/zon/zon37-210.htm

Also, good idea, but you will get wet hands. :P

br,
Webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 22:34:00 pm
Quote
Also, good idea, but you will get wet hands. :P

now with a little work of genius one would modify the knob to meet the needs of operation.. just a quick step for one without the tools to create such operation parmeters from raw material...


i have been thinking on current and how we need to match the impeadance of the chokes to meet primarys..  i think i have a good perspective to consider with current...  i think it can be seen in a basic way and in a more complex...

simple way is how a amp meter works.. its function is to tell you how many electrons are passing a given line in a local space (the wire) the count a amp meter will give doesnt consider the parameters  of the wire confining the traveling charge... 

the more complex view would be to consider how many  electrons are passing a given point in a wire.. when i say a given point i mean considering the interaction from the perspective of one copper atom in the circuit and the  count of its exchange of electrons in its unipolar direction (DC).. once figuring that out you know the actual speed of moving charge and you match that perspective of exchange for your primary and choke then can couple ground through its arbitrary connection (mosfet) along with primary to me this seems like a way to take out signal degration factor during pulsing..
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 20, 2009, 23:34:27 pm
That is some nice improv Webmug , I am using the method of photo stand and spacing them further apart with my hands , its a bit ghetto .

I have to think of a better mounting point so I dont mess up the damping factor , but everything is just a bitch to fit , have to hacks and saw plastic ... grrrrrr
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 17:14:43 pm
@Dynodon

Do you have progress on the HV transformer signal? Blocking negative signal with HV DIODE?
I have a few HV DIODES (20kV 10mA) but I fried my primary transformer coil.  ???

br,
webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 22:36:36 pm
Right now I'm looking at the alternator setup.I'm still pondering the other one though.More research going on now than anything.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 22:52:48 pm
Don, have you learned anything more about Stan's alternator?
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 29, 2009, 22:57:55 pm
Not yet,I'm looking to get back down there soon.Just waiting for the owner to get some free time,and I've been short on funds do to lay off.
Don
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2009, 07:53:20 am
outlawstc, I like the vice. what about taking the knob off and replacing it with a pulley. then belt drive it to the top of the cell.
Robert
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2009, 10:32:09 am
I've got a new dangerous part to experiment with, a Flyback transformer.
As you can see in the schematic we do have a few pickup coils to choose from...guess I could use to lowest Vpp coil. In the sheet we see the type of output pulse .
Could not find a detailed data sheet, usual PHILIPS parts data sheets are difficult to find.
Don't know if this part works on 230V...must inspect the circuit board were it comes from.
It's kind of dangerous to connect it to mains.

br,
webmug 
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2009, 18:17:28 pm
I can't wait to see what that does to the water!
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2009, 20:06:17 pm
I've got a new dangerous part to experiment with, a Flyback transformer.
As you can see in the schematic we do have a few pickup coils to choose from...guess I could use to lowest Vpp coil. In the sheet we see the type of output pulse .
Could not find a detailed data sheet, usual PHILIPS parts data sheets are difficult to find.
Don't know if this part works on 230V...must inspect the circuit board were it comes from.
It's kind of dangerous to connect it to mains.

br,
webmug
don't do it!
flybacks are normally driven by 12V-18V, if you use a square wave the voltage generated will be enormous, don't use 230V!
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2009, 22:03:25 pm
I've got a new dangerous part to experiment with, a Flyback transformer.
As you can see in the schematic we do have a few pickup coils to choose from...guess I could use to lowest Vpp coil. In the sheet we see the type of output pulse .
Could not find a detailed data sheet, usual PHILIPS parts data sheets are difficult to find.
Don't know if this part works on 230V...must inspect the circuit board were it comes from.
It's kind of dangerous to connect it to mains.

br,
webmug
don't do it!
flybacks are normally driven by 12V-18V, if you use a square wave the voltage generated will be enormous, don't use 230V!

Don't worry, haithar. I'm not connecting 230V.

br,
webmug
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2009, 15:17:20 pm
Quote
outlawstc, I like the vice. what about taking the knob off and replacing it with a pulley. then belt drive it to the top of the cell.
Robert


yea somthin like that.. i think it would be more wise to find some type of bearing seal  and send it right out the side of the cell from the bottom.... i wanna be able to seal the unit and i think having a sealed bearing under water is smarter due to the density of water compared to gases.. i think you can create a more reliable seal and a safer one in the water zone of the cell rahter then a spot where explosive gases reside.
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 31, 2009, 23:23:49 pm
Look at how the older faucet valves were constructed with seats and washers.  Usually there's an o-ring on the shaft where there is a groove and in addition graphite packing (looks like black rope) and packing nut that slides over the stem and screws into the valve body.

From what I can tell Stan's is geared and is adjusted from the top but it would probably have a similar construction to prevent gas from escaping.  It's easier to attach a valve construction to a flat surface than it is to a curved surface.

Regards and Happy New Year,
Andy
Title: Re: High Voltage Circuit (VIC)
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 01, 2010, 21:03:13 pm
Stans plate cell used a shaft down through from the top,and had string wrapped around this shaft in two plces top and bottom.Then the ends went through the one fixed plate,and one end tied to the  moveable plate, then the other end went through the moveable plate through a block on the other side and back through the block, and tied onto the moveable plate from the opposite side as the first end.Hope this makes sense.
Also there were several wraps of string around the shaft,and it was tied to it as well.So there was wraps above and below the tied point, wrapped all in one directions.
Don