Author Topic: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule  (Read 7251 times)

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The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« on: September 01, 2012, 16:23:42 pm »
I discussed with my teacher and i think i concluded how the reaction occurs in the water during the application of the electric fields of high intensity...

First as meyer said the molecules will try to align with the field

A dipole subjected to an electric field not only aligns but its first action is to oscillate rotating back and forth around its center of mass at a given frequency function of the electric field...  so there is a kind of resonance implied too... this oscillation believed to be damped by thermal agitation however...

Each pulse will input charge into the water molecule that has the ability of retain a charge... It starts to stretch and finally the bound switch off and monoatomic hydrogen is generated, as they were subjected to forces the hydrogen has a physical separation from the oxygen and thereto recombination is avoided. It would need a spark to recombine... 

The monoatomic atoms are reactive and will get attached to the first thing it collides with... as there was a region full of hydrogen atoms H2 will form liberating heat.... similarly for oxygen...


I argue with my teacher that argon for example will ionize under high electric fields and she said that the electric fields necessary can be calculated but is a quite hard task... i guess the result could be what meyer aways says that is not required too much electric field since the dipole of the water molecule is already bent and non stable in its nature... he says frequently that only a potential can disrupt the forces by changing the time share ratio of the covalent pairs...

I mean if you take the problem static the molecule has one force... but the calculation could show that the as it starts to be distorted by the field the attraction force can decay with non linear, or quantized fashion...  well different from models used by science because science only use the simpler as possible situations to study...

An example is the impossibility to calculate electron density in atoms with more than 2 electrons. hahaha





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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 16:53:27 pm »
Oh boy...

If at one electrode oxygen is generated and at the other hydrogen is generated in the middle of the cell the hydrogens liberated from the oxygen recombines with the oxygens liberated from the hydrogens at the other electrode... so if they recombine something got to happen... let me guess why meyer called it a water fuel cell that generates its own electricity....

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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 18:32:39 pm »
Quote
A. (ambient state) random

B. Alignment of polar fields

C. Polarisation of molecule

D. Molecular elongation

E. Atom liberation by breakdown of covalent bond

F. Release of gases
Seb,

You see the point of the step-like charging effect. It takes time to effect the water molecule with the voltage pulses. A to F process.

This is what Meyer said. And when the molecule is split the Oxygen and Hydrogen will not recombine.

Just all theory  8)

Orientation Polarization
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_4.html

Exercise 3.2-1 Maximum Polarization of Water
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/exercise/s3_2_1.html

Regards
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 19:51:30 pm by webmug »

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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 20:50:35 pm »
I believe the meaning of the step charging effect is what i described as successively increase in energy level as consequence of each pulse individually.

In the example you posted you show the electric field necessary to bring water to polarization... its a model considering the volume...

What i'm saying is that as the step charging takes place each step apply an electric field that charge the water while it retains this charge... so you don't need all that electric field calculated probably...

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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 22:54:31 pm »
I believe the meaning of the step charging effect is what i described as successively increase in energy level as consequence of each pulse individually.

In the example you posted you show the electric field necessary to bring water to polarization... its a model considering the volume...

What i'm saying is that as the step charging takes place each step apply an electric field that charge the water while it retains this charge... so you don't need all that electric field calculated probably...
Correct!!!

But I think we are not making progress in a practical way!
The WFC is still a very leaky water capacitor not holding any charge.
Got only some signals already shown from the VIC... ;D Looks like step-charging but no, I think it's not the step-like charging what Stan meant!!!

Also how do you test LC between resonant choke and WFC? Empy WFC?

Got any results with your VIC?

Regards

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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 23:09:26 pm »
Working on that... i want all perfectly matched before start pulsing because i'm afraid to burn the vic before the final tests...

The charge actually goes into the molecules and stay there when you apply an electric potential field and turn it off its called absorption... is a polarization effect... The energy goes to the micro capacitors... water molecules...

this is what reduce the voltage between parallel plates charged when you insert a dielectric..

similarly when you pulse the water the electric field you applied will create a opposite electric field of lower intensity that weakens the original field... when the voltage is disconnected... the electrons and holes in the electrodes neutralize within the water so the internal electric field become visible.. .

This don't happens if you apply a potential difference since the electric field you can sustain by flow of amps is too small.... 
The energy don't become heat only, it become atoms separation, oscillation.... increasing the electric potential or similarly decreasing the attraction force of the water molecule....

The far the charges are apart the weaker is the force between them right?

I meant step charging effect is the fact that you don't need to bang the water in one pulse... respecting a limit time it will let you do this job in few steps...


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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 13:27:06 pm »
Water high dielectric constant is responsible for the high solubility by dissociation into ions in water...

It works this way.. when salt for example is added to the water (an ionic substance) its ions will be surrounded by water molecules, that being a dielectric liquid 80 reduce the electric field attraction between the ions allowing them to keep somewhat independently separated from each other by thermal agitation...

It acts like a shield like. 

Also for the water ions...

« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 14:26:23 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: The effect of the electric field to the water molecule
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 14:18:18 pm »
Water high dielectric constant is responsible for the high solubility by dissociation into ions in water...

It works this way.. when salt for example is added to the water (an ionic substance) its ions will be surrounded by water molecules, that being a dielectric liquid 80 reduce the electric field attraction between the ions allowing them to keep somewhat independently separated from each other ...

It acts like a shield like.
Seb, do you think the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor?

regards!