### Author Topic: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?  (Read 12778 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

• Sr. member
• Posts: 427
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2012, 16:17:16 pm »
One thing that keeps bugging me is the fact that we are dunking water electrodes directly into water.  Whever I have done that, I have never seen the voltage across the electrodes go much above a few volts.  If we want a very high charge, we need higher resistance than the water is giving.  For the electron extraction circuit, we need the electrodes to be in direct contact with the water to pick up the electrons.  However, without the electron extraction portion of the circuit, wouldn't it be better to have another dielectric, an insulator, on the electrodes so that there is no loss?  I mean, we're not interested in conduction through the water anyway, we don't want the charges of the circuit to directly interact with the water.  We want the charges to influence the molecules with atomic forces.  So, if the electrodes were completed insulated from the water, they could be charged to higher values with less losses and be able to exert a greater force without the electro-chemical reaction with the water molecules.

Does this make sense?

TS

• Global Moderator
• Hero member
• Posts: 3636
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2012, 16:31:25 pm »
The problem adding insulation the way you described is that if you have two capacitances one big and one small in series the smaller will hold most of the field. For example you have a 100nf and a 100pf in series and charge this to 10kv. It works like a voltage divider, since Q=CV and in series the Q is the same for both. so V/((1/C1)+(1/C2))=Q=> V1=Q/C1 and V2=Q/C2  than C1 will have 9990volts and C2 only 10V.

Tay hee patent explain this.

reference

« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 16:59:23 pm by sebosfato »

• Sr. member
• Posts: 427
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 16:45:51 pm »
Ok, so what about the thin oxide layer that occurs with almost any and every material imaginable?  There will always be a secondary capacitive effect.

TS
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 17:06:18 pm by timeshell »

• Global Moderator
• Hero member
• Posts: 3636
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 17:02:40 pm »
This capacitance is way too big and too thin. So the strength is low and the capacitance too big if i remember well is 350uf/cm2 theoretically...

That patent also say that if the dielectric constant is huge compared to that of water a high field can be applied to it... in excess of 20kv...

As far as i understand it, the higher the dielectric constant the higher is the conductivity... so i dont know how they did it.. because voltage drop across the water would be much greater...

If your cell had 10kohm of resistance to dc you need to apply 1 amp to raise its voltage to 10kv so you spend 10kw

• Hero member
• Posts: 4547
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 21:42:17 pm »
Hi TS

The reason you not getting high voltage is because you are doing/comparing electrolysis.
If you look close, you notice a 3 seconds timedelay when you apply power to two electrodes, before electrolysis begins.
My suggestion is to have only very short pulses. H2O acts in that case as resistor.
Voltage can be high, as long as amps are restricted to flow....

• Sr. member
• Posts: 427
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2012, 03:45:57 am »
Hi TS

The reason you not getting high voltage is because you are doing/comparing electrolysis.
If you look close, you notice a 3 seconds timedelay when you apply power to two electrodes, before electrolysis begins.
My suggestion is to have only very short pulses. H2O acts in that case as resistor.
Voltage can be high, as long as amps are restricted to flow....

Ok, makes sense.  But isn't that what Meyers PWM was supposed to do, the gated pulse?

Here's where I'm at so far.

1.  I have calculated the approximate capacitance of my cell .
2.  I have created a VIC coil set with the chokes at approximately 8.78k of resistance.
3.  I have calculated my resonant frequency at 6.622kHz and found tuned resonance at around 6.4kHz.
4.  Ali has brought my attention to the self resonance properties of coils.  This is new to me and is an interesting parameter.  Could a coil designed to to self resonate at the same frequency as the circuit resonant frequency improve the effect?
5.  My Tony Woodside Vic circuit is presently damaged and I haven't had enough time to figure out how to troubleshoot it yet (the gate pulse isn't working) so I can only work with the resonant frequency ungated until I figure out whats wrong.
6. Now going back to your statement about shorter pulses. I can only assume you mean a lower gated duty cycle as we still want the resonant frequency to exist.

Opinions?

TS
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 20:40:08 pm by sebosfato »

• Hero member
• Posts: 4547
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2012, 16:50:09 pm »
yup.
very short pulses.
some space in between

• Global Moderator
• Hero member
• Posts: 3636
##### Re: Ok lets find the capacitance of our wfc?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2012, 20:40:30 pm »
Hi TS

The reason you not getting high voltage is because you are doing/comparing electrolysis.
If you look close, you notice a 3 seconds timedelay when you apply power to two electrodes, before electrolysis begins.
My suggestion is to have only very short pulses. H2O acts in that case as resistor.
Voltage can be high, as long as amps are restricted to flow....

Ok, makes sense.  But isn't that what Meyers PWM was supposed to do, the gated pulse?

Here's where I'm at so far.

1.  I have calculated the approximate capacitance of my cell .
2.  I have created a VIC coil set with the chokes at approximately 8.78k of resistance.
3.  I have calculated my resonant frequency at 6.622kHz and found tuned resonance at around 6.4kHz.
4.  Ali has brought my attention to the self resonance properties of coils.  This is new to me and is an interesting parameter.  Could a coil designed to to self resonate at the same frequency as the circuit resonant frequency improve the effect?
5.  My Tony Woodside Vic circuit is presently damaged and I haven't had enough time to figure out how to troubleshoot it yet (the gate pulse isn't working) so I can only work with the resonant frequency ungated until I figure out whats wrong.
6. Now going back to your statement about shorter pulses. I can only assume you mean a lower gated duty cycle as we still want the resonant frequency to exist.

Opinions?

TS

Sorry but seems improbable that resonant frequency... even more improbable that it is the same frequency you calculated, even more using the capacitance found  from the capacitance formula. And yet more unlike because of the high resistance.

What you are seeing as peak there, can be impedance matching...

An inductor has a characteristic that it resist to a change in amp flow, using AC because it takes a time t to get charged with current so every time the polarity flips it need to start over again. thus the greater the frequency the lower is the time thus the greater the reactance.

A capacitor impedes Dc current flow when it is charged to dc voltage but allow high frequency to pass..  And its reactance is not linear. A capacitor immediately charges when connected to the source, so every time the polarity of the source flips not only the capacitor gets discharged but also gets charged in the opposite direction so as the frequency increases the more times this happens the lower become the reactance.

Actually the reactance is a measure of how much energy can be transported reactively at a given voltage and frequency applied.