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Projects by members => Projects by members => fastimports3 => Topic started by: fastimports3 on September 17, 2021, 06:09:06 am

Title: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 17, 2021, 06:09:06 am
This is gonna be a new thread to discuss possible photocatalyst for electron extraction. I personally have accepted the water bath fuel cell is an ultrasonic device such as a pond fogged and the charged fog is the prestige dandy charged water Stan speaks on. See my post about 3000ml fogged for more info related to this.

This topic will deal with looking for photocatalyst that will produce an unstable isomer of water using pure water vapor.

Found this air filter that kinda operates in the way we’re looking for. It is a pic of a photocatalytic air filter.
Here’s a link explaining how they operate. We need a version that does reduction oxidation to pair the O2 and H2 pairs together.

This is a link to research concerning water splitting from light while producing an electrical output.
https://www.azocleantech.com/news.aspx?newsID=25862
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 23, 2021, 07:47:59 am
This is the study materials for this class.
Splitting of pure water vapor (fog) using photocatalyst.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2021, 19:04:20 pm
Here is inside electrode for submersed fuel cell. It has been flame spray coated with titanium dioxide, copper doped zinc sulfide and it looks to have iron oxide on it now as well.
The outside is free of coating at the moment I need to finish with electron bands and holes. Which I know about but don’t know the math or my electron bonds well enough to zero in on coatings. I’m just trying best known combination. This cell produces tiny bubble for awhile in distilled water for a period of time when completely dry.

So until the cells net charge is saturated and capacitor or cell is charged I need to try neon transformer again maybe with this cell.. Maybe???

I’m going to try coating outside with blue lin chalk through spray gun. Be nice if blue dye didn’t cook up when being applied.

Also I’d like to try a version where the cells are coated and fired in a kiln.

I used straws to space them. My method using weed wackier line would probably damage coat pressing them together.
Not that touching it with my fingers doosen’t since it’s essentially a semiconductor.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 27, 2021, 04:28:10 am
I built this before my 7 year vacation.
Solar Powered Water Fuel Cell

A version of Stan Meyer fuel cell. The inner cell has a flame sprayed coating of titanium dioxide and copper doped zinc sulfide. No electrical input and as of yet I have not tried to measure an output. I will post it when I get a measurement. It won’t be much at all given the bubbles being produced.

Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2021, 09:19:33 am
Ceramic glazed for mixing with photocatalyst to adhere n-type and p-type materials.
Link to publication

https://www.qualicer.org/recopilatorio/ponencias/pdfs/2012091.pdf

Suppliers of glazes for mixing photocatalyst with to have fired on cells.

https://uspigment.com/

https://www.theceramicshop.com/store/department/7/dry-materials/

https://digitalfire.com/glossary/flux
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 30, 2021, 08:23:33 am
I built this before my 7 year vacation.
Solar Powered Water Fuel Cell

A version of Stan Meyer fuel cell. The inner cell has a flame sprayed coating of titanium dioxide and copper doped zinc sulfide. No electrical input and as of yet I have not tried to measure an output. I will post it when I get a measurement. It won’t be much at all given the bubbles being produced.



Thats a cool technologz, FI3..
What part is consumed during the process?


cheers!
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 02, 2021, 00:46:21 am
Hi Steve,

   I don’t have the answer you’re looking for at the moment. The chemistry is complicated. I pulled this info concerning what I know for sure about what coatings are on the piece that generates under light. I made it by just trying different t mixes. There are a few other things in it like Copper doped Zinc Sulfide or glow in the dark powder. Also seems I should’ve fired it a couple times before using it to further cure it. After reading this I probably should’ve coated the TiO2 on top of the Ti4O7 and fired it on low temps to cure it to the surface of Ti4O7

Note : When the TiO2 is flame sprayed on the SS it turns into Ti4O7.

Info from:
http://tdma.info/what-is-titanium-dioxide/

As a photocatalyst, titanium dioxide can be added to paints, cements, windows and tiles in order to decompose environmental pollutants. As a nanomaterial (see below), it can also be used as a crucial DeNOx catalyst in exhaust gas systems for cars, trucks and power plants, thus minimising their environmental impact.

Researchers are discovering new potential uses for titanium dioxide in this form. This includes clean energy production.

As a photocatalyst, it has also been shown that TiO2 can carry out hydrolysis (breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen), and the collected hydrogen can be used as a fuel.



Info From
http://www.chinathermalspray.com/html/PRODUCT/list_15_1.html

The titanium black ceramic material has the following prominent characteristics:
      1. High electrical conductivity, similar to metal: Among them, the Ti4O7 phase, its single crystal conductivity can reach 1500 S/cm and its coating’s conductivity is better than graphite material’s in practical application.
      2. Excellent chemical stability and corrosion resistance: It has high stability in strong acids (H2SO4, HNO3, HCl even HF) and strong base solutions. For example, its semi-corrosion cycle can reach 50 years in 4mol/L of sulfuric acid at room temperature. It is the best chemical resistance conductive material.
      3. Unique electrochemical property: After hydrogen evolution and oxygen evolution, its electric potential is high, electrochemistry is stable and working potential window is very wide. This exceeds all common electrode materials. For example, in 1mol/L of sulfuric acid at room temperature, the difference between oxygen evolution potential and hydrogen evolution potential of the titanium black electrode is nearly 4. 0 V. This let it have good application prospect in area of positive and negative electrode, Electrocatalytic carrier and advanced oxidation process(AOPs). As the electrode matrix material, it can be electroplated, chemical deposition or coated various metal oxide or precious metal catalysts. And the chemical bonding with these catalysts is good. The catalytic activity is almost constant and the effect is excellent.
      4. Microwave absorption property: The titanium black have strong microwave absorption property under temperature of 800 ℃. This property is better than silicon carbide material’s. It is a new kind of microwave auxiliary heating material and microwave waveguide material.


Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 03, 2021, 16:44:54 pm
so what? photocatalyst are known for decades even rust can be used as a photocatalyst but you have to use light not electricity to activate the photocatalyst

Oxides of titanium can adsorb a lot of hydrogen on their surface so for any reaction that evolves hydrogen  it cause the hydrogen evolution to be much greater, especially titanium with noble metals such as palladium and platinum.

Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 03, 2021, 19:54:17 pm
Hi Geon
  Yes everything you say about photocatalyst is correct they have been around for decades. Stan talks about a resistive coating in one of his patents. He does not go into what the coating is. Only that it is resistive. In parts of his manual Stan shows the interaction of photon energy and the water. The gas processor uses lights to operate. It appears Stan has left something out of the obvious but has hinted through illustrations and his patent dealing with resistive coating with a blank to be filled. The only thing that makes sense is a photocatalyst. Many people much like Ravi have tried different things to build up on the cells over time. And I’m not sure it was used on cells in water bath at all. However the gas processor has all the makings of a photocatalytic device that except the coating used. Adding ceramic glazes to the different photocatalyst also creates restrictive coating that should allow one to use high voltage with limited amp flow, like an electron gun in a old tv.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 04, 2021, 04:40:35 am
It is this line from the patent number listed below that Stan leaves out a huge piece of info. The coating he mentions. Ceramics are often mixed with binders and the such.

“To alter the resistive value of the electron inhibitor 70/74, the resistive material 72 comprising a mixture with a binder is altered in the percentage of resistive material to binder. “


Taking from U.S. patent number 4,798,661

The electron leakage resistor will again raise the upper limit of 8.5 volts amplitude before breakdown as shown at L-5 of FIG. 8. In the generation of the hydrogen and oxygen gasses to an infinite limit, as yet not fully appreciated, the upper level of amplitude of the voltage is removed with the utilization of the electron inhibitor of FIG. 7.

In this embodiment of the current inhibitor connected to the inner plate having the negative voltage applied thereto, comprises a stainless steel sandwich 70/74 with a resistive material therebetween. The stainless steel is a poor conductive material and hence will restrict to some extent the electron flow. Other poor conductive material may be utilized in lieu of the stainless steel. The electron inhibitor 70/74 is connected in the same manner as resistor 60--between the inner plate having the negative potential connected to it and ground.

The resistive value of the electron inhibitor 70/74 is chosen empirically to a closest value, thereafter the total value of the resistance is fine tuned by the resistor 75 connected serially between the inner plate and ground.

To alter the resistive value of the electron inhibitor 70/74, the resistive material 72 comprising a mixture with a binder is altered in the percentage of resistive material to binder.

With reference to FIGS. 1 and 8, the pulse d.c. voltage of a repetitive frequency and the duty cycle pulses, together with the serially connected plate exciter techniques in the sequence for limiting the electron leakage is in relation to the positive exciter outer plate. The current inhibitor resistor 60 and the current inhibitor resistor 70/74 are in the negative voltage line connected to the inner plate.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 04, 2021, 12:45:42 pm
Yes, i know that drawing very well.
It is as far as i can remember, a part of the alternator setup and more of his early work.
Later he explained in a video that he was not using a resistive element anymore, but only coils / chokes / vic, etc etc

Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 04, 2021, 16:42:42 pm
for all I know meyer could have been mistaken about his claims

the questions is how to create hydrogen right?
Water can have many isoforms, because the angle between the two hydrogens can change and stays like this for a while they say it  has a memory effect, it's lattice order changes but the main uses for this effect is that it alters the wetting properties of water so water changes it's surface energy, this is the ability of materials to repel each other, these characteristics don't really change the energy required to do electrolysis but the surface energy may alter the voltage of a cell because the Helmholtz layer which is a thin layer of ions near the electrodes changes thickness, but again we're talking about faraday electrolysis with the faraday law of electrolysis , its taught in undergraduate thermodynamics lesson , you cant just electrolyze water and get net energy gain, much of it must be turned to heat.

if you want to use photocatalyst then you must make nanocatalyst by reducing metal salts preferably in the presence of something conductive like graphite or polyaniline as a capping agent so the resistive loss will be low, nanocatalyst have almost 200% gains in efficiency compared to regular catalysts

I've used TiO2 in non aqueous solutions and it actually adorbs a lot of hydrogen, it also adorbs water vapor but last time I checked the reduction potential is not high enough for water electrolysis, even though 1.2v may do you usually need 1.8v for it so you definitely need to custom make titanium oxides for photocatalysis of water

it means you replace electrolysis with photocatalysis where photons get turned into electrons and directly transferred to water so you can combine the two, I mean the UV from sparks may get turned into excitation energy for a photocatalyst but the main thermodynamic law will still apply turning most electricity to heat, you have spark turned into heat and light, electrons getting turned into heat in electrolysis and light getting converted back into electricity with the photocatalyst but you're producing heat in both methods so the net gain is negative

let's say meyer was turning spark directly into excitation energy for the photocatalyst which hasn't been done before, this means no actual electrolysis is being done and it's all done by the photocatalyst but why not just use a UV lamp with all it's losses to excite the photocatalyst to make the exact same lossy mechanism as electrolysis?

creating sparks means you have to spend energy in electron collisions so it's not a waste free method of creating photons!

water must be one of the most stable molecules in the universe and you're trying to break it apart, why not use alcohol with water as fuel? alcohol can be easily made by brewing sugar and the cost of making yourself is low, although its still illegal to run unregistered fuels
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 05, 2021, 07:07:49 am
Hi Geon
The second law is followed as if it were written in stone. It stops people from questioning things that don’t fit in the ridged structure of the rule.

For fun check out Ilya Prigogine
What is Prigogine theorem?
a theorem of the thermodynamics of nonequilibrium processes according to which the minimum level of production of entropy in a system, under conditions preventing the attainment of the equilibrium state, corresponds to the steady state of that system.

I’m not sure Stan’s claims are valid myself. However I look through his stuff wondering if he hasn’t hidden things in plain sight. Or that he hasn’t laid out an idea of how the total system works throughout his patents. Are the patents scrambled possibly intertwined.

The goal is not hydrogen as we think of it from electrolysis. It is a 4th state of matter plasma or different isomeric configuration.
Possibly We are looking for a strange compound arrangement. Intently chatted with Cynthia Kolb Whitney. I have posted from her publication several times here On the Several Nanostructures of Water. She referred me to Jerry Pollack and EZ water.

Structured water is also known as hexagonal water or EZ (exclusion zone) water, forming H3O2 rather than H2O. It naturally arranges its hydrogen and oxygen molecules into repeating and ordered geometric crystal-like formations.

Developed on a hydrophilic (water-loving) surface, EZ water forms when it is exposed to heat and light including infrared light. It forms a honeycombed lattice-like appearance and becomes more viscous, dense and alkaline than regular H2O.

There’s a possibility that what I’m trying to do is different then what Stan did. I have observed on several occasions a Stanley cell produces a fog. Fog produced by the WFC resembles the water coming from the cold fogger.The the properties of the water have been altered.

 I’m looking at the photocatalyst method only for stripping the electrons from the cold fog. I want to build a gas processor on top of the cold fog system.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 06, 2021, 19:53:10 pm
The EZ water term is not real per se, I make surfaces that always hold a hydration layer using polymers with polyethylene glycol , these are anti microbial surfaces, they always hold a more ordered hydration water layer near the surface than the rest of the water so there is an energy penalty for disturbing this structure, you don't make this layer by just throwing PEG everywhere but you space out the PEG on the polymer for water to break through, I really don't know if this would change how electrolysis works, in electrolysis there's always a Helmholtz layer which is full of ions, you may get different voltage for the cell but the energy efficiency cannot reach overunity. Tuning the hydrophilicity e.x. PEG and the hydrogen affinity e.x. TiO2 of the electrode surface will change the efficiency of electrolysis for better or worse but then again it won't reach overunity.

Using noble metals to boost hydrogen production means you have to keep out all CO2 out so even when feeding water you need to CO2 scrub it!!! Its not practical.
Using aluminum would sacrifice the metal and produce hydrogen, it has been proposed for running fuel cells and batteries but it's not practical.
The last trend is using ammonia as fuel which is again not practical because its too dangerous.

What has been tried and tested is running cars on an alcohol/water mixture, there's the possibility meyer didn't use only hydrogen! He may have added sugar and a fungus to make alcohol or something else, there are a lot of things you can use as a primary fuel and use the water as an expansive agent to match the power of gasoline. The light could also be used to activate the fungus for alcohol production, meyer may have had a super strain of fungi , maybe he was a brewer who knows. :P
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 12, 2021, 11:54:01 am
You can make an alcoholic solution by using electrochemical cells (hydrogen burns too fast for engines you can only get a little energy out)  the efficiency, however, is low! I mean 60 minutes to get a 1% solution when you need a 70% solution so with no special setup you will need 70 hours to run a car, a fungus needs 24 hours to make it so electrochemical methods are slower, the ideal setup is in situ production of fuel from water and carbon, the energy density is high enough to make it worth investigating. In short you make carbon dioxide to feed it through the cell and produce oxalates than reduce it by hydrogenation to methanol or ethanol, the efficiency is ultra low so you definitely need specialized setup for this! Custom electrode materials certainly, the electrolyte can be a metal carbonate. I believe the limiting step is hydrogenation so it definitely needs research because bubbling hydrogen through the cell is not easy, the hydrogen generated near the electrode is of very low concentration so if you concentrate it somewhere and feed it through again it can make the process faster but the storage and gas lines are complicated to build but the most important step if to design and make the catalysts for the electrodes. Current research is focusing  on chemisorbed species, it is hopeless, how do you avoid catalyst poisoning if you have 10 different chemisorbed ions?

In short without bothering with stoichiometry or charges

C + O2 -> CO2
2CO2 + H2O -> C2O4 2- + OH- + H+
C2O4 2-  + H2  -> CH3CH2OH + H2O  rate limiting step




Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 12, 2021, 16:35:37 pm
Interesting take on the alcohol. So why not just mix it in the fogger and call it a day. It appears Walter Jenkins had done it with as little as 5% fuel inside the fogger and fed to the engine. I figured when I was messing with the fogger one could burn less fuel similar to Paul Pantones design. Except your using ultrasonics to suspend the fuel. If I was in to the business of being popular of what I feel like is a scam or misleading. I could’ve done that years ago. Instead of mixing fuel I want to use the Hydroxy gas. Steve had even pointed it out again to me. Why not mix the fog and the HHO to see if it will respond similar to Walter Jenkins claims.

The other part is a gas engine itself is extremely wasteful in the form of heat, like 70%. We don’t need heat just a expansion of air to drive a piston. Or maybe a vacuum on the piston after top dead center. I haven’t gotten so far as to try and run anything solely on the water gas. I have seen plenty of motors run on HHO. They run cold. So some of that energy that is not available. Wasn’t needed in the first place to run the engine. Because most of the energy the gas provides the engine is lost as heat.
Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 16, 2021, 10:46:46 am
 if you want an engine to run you need the chemical reaction to be more exothermic than the previous ones and the net energy to be positive

when you try to break up water during electrolysis you give energy with 30% losses to heat to make the more unstable version of "water" which is hydrogen

when you burn it inside the engine you take back the energy you gave during electrolysis with 70% losses to heat

what does it take to figure out this can't work?

when you make alcohol you can start from a higher energy density chemical to a lower energy density chemical thus the net gain in energy will be positive, in theory you can convert sugar to alcohol and run the car with it, alcohol water efficiency may reach up to 70% because water acts as an expansive agent, you can't do this with gasoline or diesel. The problem is that you can't make alcohol fast enough with the current technology for the engine to burn. If enough money is spent I'm pretty sure cars could run on sugars, this is the fuel of nature.



Title: Re: Looking for the right photocatalytic combination to extract electrons
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 27, 2021, 22:45:38 pm
I’m not trying to use electrolysis to generate fuel. I’m trying to use sound waves to arrange another isomeric configuration that happened to be unstable. There is more going on with the fog generated with the ultrasonic diggers then is generally accepted. This is the main focus of my threads.

The combustion engine is highly inefficient turning most of the energy from the reaction to wasted heat energy. Why can’t we use what the engine has to offer to assist in preparation of the the unstable isomeric form of water. Using the engines vacuum to pull on the water molecule should elongate it for easier destabilization.

The easiest way is to add water to a know fuel to get better efficiency. That however is not what the original claims were. It is hard to imagine a person puts so much work into a fraud or even a scam. Not to mention a scam that fooled the US military to show interest. The world around us is perpetually in motion. The electrons are spinning away, all we need to do is interrupt its path with the work we want done.