Author Topic: Stan Meyer Water Fuel Cell Calorimetry and Gas Prodcution Calculation  (Read 951 times)

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 Some ideas on determining how much gas was  being generated by Stan Meyer's demonstration cells

Calorimetric Calculation

In the early experimental development of the vertical cluster array demonstration
cell there are several accounts of the  temperature of the cell during its operation.

1.There is a comment by a member of the British delegation that visited Stan's lab
reported in a publication of the time


2. Stan's tells a story  regarding the demonstrationbefore the patent examiners, one of whom Ran down and felt the outside of the cell
And yelled out "it's a cold processes!"

3. In the full version of the May 1989 Environmental Meeting, an investor John Gilvesey is asked to feel the outside
of the vertical demonstration cell asnd is asked how it feels  Seems to add credence to an unusual Process occurring



Unfortunately no temperature  measurements using a thermometer have been reported in the lab records of the time.



The dimensions of the demonstration cell are basically available or can be estimated
Sources:  Measurements by Don Gabel, Drawings in IITER

The dimensions of the stainless steel tubing are known and the volume of the brackets
can be calculated.

The amount of water can be estimated in this fashion:

1. Determine the volume of water in the demonstration Cell
    a. first determine the volume of water if there were no tubes added
    b. subtract from this volume the volume of the water displaced by the stainless tubes
    c estimate the volume of the brackets and ground plate
    d by subtracting values b and c from the volume a, the amount of
      water in the demonstration cell is obtained.

2.   Assumptions about initial  temperatures of water and air

      a The temperature of the cold tap water is likely to be close to ground temperature
        55 degrees Fahrenheit was chosen as tap water temperature.
      b.The ambient  temperature of the air is assumed to be70 degrees Fahrenheit.

3  Power input
    The watt input is reportedly less than ten Watt if not lower

QUESTION:
Given these parameters, is it likely that a significant temperature rise in temperature
would occur on 30 minutes? 

QUESTION;

Is the absence of heating evidence for A novel form of electrolysis ?

Comments? Or  solutions?


Formula for Volume of Cylinder

V=B (H)
V= Volume
H= Height of Cylinder
B= Area of Base
B= r2 ( pi)

So how many cubic inches of water might be in a typical Meyer Cell ?

V=  r2(pi)(H)

and after plugging in a few figures

V= 6.25 (3.14)(24)
V =471 cubic inches
 multiplying by 16.387 conversion factor
7718 grams of water

A calorie (small) will raise 1 gram of water 1 degree centigrade
and is defined as 4.1868 joule
So it I would take about 32314 joules to increase the water in a Meyer Cell  by 1 degree Centigrade

If we assume 55 degree temperature for cold water and 70 for the ambient temp
the temperature differential is 15 degrees Fahrenheit or  8.32 degrees centigrade

Thus it would take about 268,852  joulesor about 900 watts to heat up that quantity
of water in five minutes to room temperature.
---------------------------------------------------



How much gas was being produced ?

First approach.

From the videos, it is possible to determine the time to cloud up the
water above the tops of the stainless electrodes. If we think of the
clouded volume of water and compare it to a sponge with the holes in the
sponge being the hho gas and the matrix of the sponge being the water,then
the volume of hho gas being produced per unit time might be estimated.

One concept  that might be applicable is the concept of packing fractions
Example  how many ball bearings or marbles fit in at quart jar?

The shape of the hho bubbles are assumed to be spherical
The diameter of the bubbles are not known and their size
distribution also is unknown but might be estimated

In the case of air rifle BB's or marbles where the sizes are
assumed to be uniform, the volume of each of the spheres
can be calculated.and based on the geometry a packing
fraction can be applied to determine the number of BB's or marbles
that will fit in a given volume container.

If we make reasonable assumptions about the size of the hho bubbles
and calculate the volume of the clouded water, it might be possible
to estimate the amount of hho gas in the water above the tops
of the stainless steel tubing during operation

Furthermore, if we can get an approximate "time to cloud"
perhaps an estimate of the gas production per unit time is
possible.

Proposed solution using video evidence

1. Determine volume of water above the tops of the tubes

2.Determine volume gas that clouds the water for various
   dimension of bubbles.

3. Attempt to determine the size of the bubbles from video
  evidence

4. Based on observed size calculate the gas volume in
   the water above the tops of the stainless steel tubing

5 The use " time to cloud"  to estimate gas production




Let's take a look at the videos.


In the vertical cluster array cell we see a number of tubes
producing a large number of small bubbles.

Problem 1:
How many 1 mm diameter circles fit in a 10 cm square?

Assuming worst possible packing method, there would be
100 circles per side of the square or 10,000 circles.

Problem 2
 
Again with same assumptions, how many 2 mm circles
would fit in a 10 cm square?

100mm side/2 mm circle = 50 per side or 2500 circles

-------------

now for volume of sphere

V=4/3 (pi) (r3

so for a 1 mm sphere   Vol =    .52 ml
and for a 2mm sphere  Vol =    4.19 ml
 

10000 x .52  5210
2500 x 4.19 


so with the concept of obscuring bubbles

if we know  or estimate the volume of water above the top ends of the
vertical array tubes and know how long it takes to form a uniform mixture of bubbles can this be
a help in estimating the rate of gas  production? 


Second approach:   Pressure Change as indication of rate of gas production
if we know the volume of air or gas above the top surface of the water in a vertical
cell and can see the rise in /pressure in a given amount of time, can this be used
to estimate gas production/ unit time?   Boyle's /Charles laws


can these two measures be used to estimate bubble size?

if we know the surface are of the tubes can we determine the gas production
per square cm of tube surface


Another question for the mathematicians?

Determine the rate of production of HHO gas in Stan Meyer's Demo Cells.

1. Determine the volume of gas above the upper surface of the water in the demonstration cells
   We have dimensions for the cell from Dynodon
   We can estimate the vertical distance above the surface of the water with a little photogrammetry
   WE can calculate the volume of the cone at the top of the cell
   We can use the video of pressure change on the cells to measure increase of pressure over time
   We can make some assumptions about temperature of the outside or ambient temperature

    application of Charles and Boyle's laws may provide insight into the amount of gas being
   produced per second and also liters/minute

 show work

compare time to obscure and calculate min and max gas needed
to give  range of gas production

a..  window
b   surface area of vertical tubes
c   pakng fraction for column of water above top of tubes to surface of water
d  video of how long it takes to obscure

show work

 c
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 16:13:32 pm by jim miller »

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Re: Stan Meyer Water Fuel Cell Calorimetry Calculation Problem
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 15:58:48 pm »
Jim, have you seen and read the independant test doc?
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1871.0.html

Sorry for the big file, but it clearly stated that amps where consumed. More then 10watt.
The 10watt was just for energizing the rotorfield.
Not for turning the alternator....
That consumed much more.
4 amps per tube?

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Re: Stan Meyer Water Fuel Cell Calorimetry Calculation Problem
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 17:58:55 pm »
Thanks Steve

The bottom line is that the cell "feels"
Cool after running for some time

What is really needed is a comparison
Of brute force hydrolysis and the claimed
"Voltrolysis" with measured electrical
input ,water temperature reading
 and gas production.  Additionally
A control of  how temperature
Increases  with no input would
Be preferable

If maybe that the input
Of electricial energy is so
Neglible that tactile sensing
Of heat is not possible or
That that the volume of
Water is acting as a heat sink
And a rise in temperature
Is difficult

Also heat imparted to the escaping gas or
Adiabitic cooling as bubbles rise
Change the temperature of the water

This is a complex problem with
Many variables that can only be
Guessed at but perhaps an
Expected temperature range can
Be calculated to rule out or
Affirm the type of process that
Is occuring in the Wfc demonstrations

And perhaps the calculations
May not be conclusive in
Determining the processes that
Are occuring ...

There must be a physicist  or engineer
out there that enjoys a challenge....





« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 23:36:18 pm by jim miller »