Author Topic: Spiral Wire Electrodes  (Read 7305 times)

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2016, 05:10:00 am »
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Its not so very basic tho as we put our electrodes in some water and notice that familiar murky cloud start to form (or is it ) and wander what is going on.At first sight we want to think ....wow.... look at all that hydrogen.....which in a basic sense would be a correct assessment  but as we study and learn we come to discover its not just hydrogen in that cloud of water sinking to the bottom....

The cloud of bubbles in my cell doesn't sink to the bottom.  Only to the bottom of the electrodes.  Sometimes not quite that far, as the upwards acceleration at the center pulls the bubbles back in.  And it's more of a rolling circulation, rather than a sinking.  Too bad all of my video cameras have disappeared. 

Yes, it'd be interesting see the arrangement of your cell container...


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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2016, 02:17:44 am »

With mine, either way, I'm getting a strong boiling like effect up to the surface, even raising the water in the middle.  But most of the bubbles reflect back down into the water, rather than breaking the surface.  As a result, very little gas is actually coming through the bubbler.  When the cloudiness reaches its maximum, I still see the boiling from the top.  So the dispersed bubbles aren't inhibiting further gas production.  It's possible the bubbles are recombining into water, at some rate of equilibrium.  There's a mystery here and I intend to get to the bottom of it.

This cloudiness.... what is that and is that the mystery  here or is it the lack of production?

The cloudiness is caused by a large number of tiny bubbles spread out through the water mass.  Why they are reflecting from the surface of the water rather than popping was the mystery.  But the mystery surrounding this operation deepens when considering that the negative electrode puts off the most bubbles.

Yes, it'd be interesting see the arrangement of your cell container...

I'm using concentric spirals, just as shown in my opening post.  What I'm using now is about 2 1/2 times longer.

I made the long, tiring journey to Kingman on Friday, to get my month's worth of groceries and supplies.  I picked up a cheap video camera, but it's pure-de-crap.  I'm going to try making a video with my phone camera.

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes (Selling Out To NASA?)
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 22:43:18 pm »
My newest prototype is just about finished.  I still have to seal it up and add a valve, to run a hose to the bubbler.  Then I can test my tiny torch (which is already ready) and see if it meets my expectations.  And there isn't really any mystery as to what my unit is doing.  I've got all that figured out.  I even posted a clue.  (That was ahead of time, before I thought about using these spirals.)  But, to be honest, the actual composition of the gas IS still unknown.

The possibility that this system might be producing some amount of hydroxyl, as well as hydrogen and oxygen, is rather interesting.  Unless someone knows how to differentiate the gasses, I'll have to think about that one. 

Of course, I could team up with NASA and utilize their spectroscopy equipment.  The only issue I see with doing that is they will end up with full rights to use the invention, in the process.  (If it is an invention.)  Their resulting patent - under my own name - would start with "The United States government has certain rights to this invention".  (THEY decide if a patent will be filed.)  On the other hand, if I just file a patent myself, I would start it with "This invention may be used by, and manufactured for, the US government, for any and all governmental purposes, without payment of any fees thereon or therefor".  Otherwise, they could slap a secrecy order on it, and use it anyway.  The difference between these two approaches is that if I file the patent, it'll cost me a ton of money.  And they still get to use it for free.  But if they file the patent, they pay all the fees AND send me a check for $1,000.  Unfortunately, there's also a little fine print called the NPR program, or New Technology Report.  There's a federal law which says that if I'm working with NASA - or any other government agency which even partly funds my work - NASA also gets full rights to use ANYTHING I'm also working on during the contract period.  And this includes "conceptualizing"; if I even THINK about one of my other projects, I'm required by law to submit an NPR form about it.  If, by chance, NASA thinks something I'm working on isn't worth a patent, they can still open source it for me by publishing it in their Tech Briefs magazine, "so that other people can start a business and make money with your idea".  There's nothing wrong with that since trying to enable Cottage Industries everywhere, to help expand the economy, is the whole idea behind open sourcing something to begin with.  And if something is published in NASA's magazine, they'll send me a check for $350.  So I can open source something for free, on a small Internet forum where very few people will see it, taking the chance that someone will decide to file a patent on it anyway.  Or I can let NASA's patent attorneys decide if it's worth a patent, then open source it to their very large audience if it's not, with me making a little bit in the process.  Once a patent issues, I can publicly give everyone the right to use it.  And that is the safest method to open source something.

All of this sounds pretty tempting.  If they'll pay me a thousand bucks for every idea I have which can be patented, those checks could pile up pretty fast.  But there are some things I'm working on which I don't necessarily want to reveal.  If I change my mind later, I could be caught up in a big court battle trying to prove I didn't do at least some little thing during the crucial time frame.  So what should I do?  At one point, right out of the blue, my father told me:  "You've got to stop thinking about selling your stuff to NASA".  This might be a case of trans-temporal advice because it hadn't even occurred to me to try to sell something to the government.  But I value his advice more than what could quite likely be 'external input' urging me to contact NASA.

So I may use the tried and true method of public demonstration, or use, then waiting one year before disclosing the details.  By law, this puts something into the Public Domain.  Except in England, where you can't patent anything which has already been disclosed, regardless of when.  And that's how it should be over here.

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2016, 23:25:12 pm »
Just a 1000 bucks for all hard work done?
hmmmm...



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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2016, 04:05:14 am »
Reflecting back to Stan tweaking his cells with a 1/16 " gap....I can see a "tweaking " with your spiral cells ....adding an isolation tube within the center of the coil wrap giving the cell a thin wall of water to penetrate instead of the whole mass of water like in the video posted.
I guess you can imagine the spiral cells being placed in a container made of 2 pvc pipes of different diameters with a gap to drop the spirals in.....kind of exciting with a few more possibilities.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 06:18:27 am by tweaker »

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2016, 21:46:07 pm »
kind of exciting with a few more possibilities.

Real exciting, if someone else wants to experiment with such an easy to build setup.

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2016, 08:05:25 am »
kind of exciting with a few more possibilities.

Real exciting, if someone else wants to experiment with such an easy to build setup.

It is an easier build but still requires funds. I'm an out work coal miner in the USA .....things have been tuff for me literally all year...laid off since January and completely out of any income since August.
I have a few things laying around and given the excitement, I really want work with this idea.
I like to draw up the design and go from there so if you don't mind I'll draw up something along with some possible additions and post it.If you want me to start my own thread it's no problem.   

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Re: Spiral Wire Electrodes
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2016, 20:46:15 pm »
Just a 1000 bucks for all hard work done?
hmmmm...

Their theory is that if someone other than the government wants to use it I'll be able to collect royalties from those people.  But I'm not in the business of trying to make money from the members of our community.  Besides that, there would still be the possibility of a secrecy order, to keep anyone from knowing about it.  Open source is still the best way, so that's what I'm doing.
 
I can see a "tweaking " with your spiral cells ....adding an isolation tube within the center of the coil wrap giving the cell a thin wall of water to penetrate instead of the whole mass of water like in the video posted.

I guess you can imagine the spiral cells being placed in a container made of 2 pvc pipes of different diameters with a gap to drop the spirals in.....kind of exciting with a few more possibilities.

I thought about just putting a tube above the inner spiral, to prevent the bubbles from recirculating.  Then what I tried was using a baffle plate, with a hole above the middle electrode.  That's what worked, with gas quickly building up under the plate.  So now I made a new unit, with an output valve at the top and another below the high point of the slanted devider plate.  This took three days to build, because I don't have the right kind of glue which will stick to the type of plastic the soda pop bottle is made out of.  I did finally get it sealed good enough for a test.  I'm thinking I can test the two regions of gas separately, to determine their compositions.  Unfortunately, the hole in the plate is a little too small this time, so some of the tiny bubbles are getting into the bottom chamber.  And that does cut down on the overall gas production, compared to the other one.  I think I'll try using your idea, with a tube coming down from the baffle plate, but just past the top of the negative central electrode.  I still want to keep everything transparent for now, to see what's going on.

I've got a T joining the hoses from both valves, feeding both gasses into the bubbler.  I tried using my micro torch, but I'm getting blow back all the way to the bubbler.  The vaccination needle I bought appears to be too big, with the gas not streaming out fast enough to keep the flame out of the feed hose.  This is a good time to try making a quenching 'circuit', and my thought is to cram some wadded up micro screen into the hose, right before the torch.

I have a few things laying around and given the excitement, I really want work with this idea.
I like to draw up the design and go from there so if you don't mind I'll draw up something along with some possible additions and post it.If you want me to start my own thread it's no problem.

Post it here.  If it look's good, I'll build it too.  That's the whole advantage of having a forum.  And you can also build this with copper wire, with no adverse effects for the first few minutes.  Good enough for a test.  I'm using 1 mm 19 gauge wire.