Author Topic: Different kind of VIC Circuit  (Read 12706 times)

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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2011, 03:10:45 am »
I can only see 2 applications to resonance of the water molecule.


1, using high voltage AC as outlined in the Independent Evaluation.  But keep in mind this is a lot of energy store in the capacitor and welding wire used for the choke.


2, using the primary resonance of the transformer to allow the input voltage to rise 3.14 x input voltage.


Therefor gaining a little voltage boost in the transformer.  I don't know if cupping the secondary to the primary will cause this voltage rise to be lost or not.


Since I am primarily setup for the second option I will look into that first.


Theory would be: 12 volts input,  Primary resonance allows for 36 volts on the input side. 


2 volts needed on highly conductive water, 36 / 2 = 18.   
So I need a step down x former of 18:1.


Whatever the input current is should be about 18x on the secondary, for example 1 amp at 12 volts, allows 18 amps at 2 volts.


I need to allow a little voltage for the bridge drop and transformer efficiency. 


I also want to keep the resonating frequency low, under 20 khz, to keep the skin effect low and XL low.


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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2011, 04:38:32 am »
For this experiment  I simply cut out the transformer.  I used the primary winding as part of the tank circuit and placed the bridge and WFC between the tank inductor and tank capacitor.

The goal was to eliminate the losses of the transformer in this design.

This is for a single cell with plenty of KOH again.
Input voltage is read off the variac, while secondary voltage is measured at the tank capacitor.

V = volts
C = current
P = power
F = frequency

First setup Tank cap 4.5uf
Input V        Input C            Input P(W)              Output A                  Output F
  7                  1.9                     13.3                       2.4                           4.6 k
23                  3.2                     73.6                       8.1                           5.3 k
30                  5                      150                        13                              6.9 k
40                  7.6                   304                        18.8                           8    k

To lower the frequency and see what changes may occur I added to the primary cap.

Tank cap 9.0 uf
Input V        Input C            Input P(W)              Output A                  Output F              Output V              Circulating P (W)
12                  2.9                    34.8                       4.8                             3.3 k                    30                           144
17                  4                       68                          8                                3.8 k                    49                           392
20                  5                     100                        10.5                             4.3 k                    57                           598.5
26                  8                     208                        16                                5.2 k                    65                         1040
33                11                     363                        23                                6.3 k                    81                         1863

At 23 amps on the cell side I smoked my wires to the cell.  Planning on looking over this data awhile.

I am expecting as the ionization energy of the molecules is reached (next level) the cell resistance should drop, therefor allowing the cell current to clime higher and allowing the input current to lower. 

I am thinking I am starting to see the affect, but might be seeing what I want.  I know the plasma electrolysis seems to happen at 200 volts - so my goal is to see the input power required as the secondary hits the 200 v mark and above.  My driver is not made to handle above 200 volts so some updates will be necessary.

One disappointment, and hole in the theory already, is the primary current continues to clime as the voltage is increased.  The losses of the tank circuit should be fixed - therefor raising the voltage should not affect input current.

I am thinking this is my driver (partly) at higher voltage and some skin effect at the higher frequency.

Frequency should be the same regardless of voltage input, because the tank Inductance and tank capacitance do not change.

I guess this means the losses of the cell are less at higher voltage - assuming higher freq. represents less energy drop as a camera flash circuit works.  (as the load diminishes, capacitor charges,  the frequency of the camera flash circuit rises until beyond 20 khz, audible range).



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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2011, 05:29:42 am »
Here are 2 photos on the theory.  Wanted to note theory.

The first represents the water as a resistance.  As it gets closer to ionization the resistance drops.

The second is  input power theory, against tank/cell power theory.

As an example of what I am thinking: Example only.
Input power will need to clime to 2700 watts (30 amps @ 90 volts)  This would be the ionization stage of the water allowing the resistance to drop ( circulating power 250 volts @ 90 amps, 22,500 watts).

Increasing the primary voltage beyond this allows 180 volts @ 5 amps (900 watts) while the Hydrogen released is at a rate of 190 amps.  190 amps circulating in the tank circuit.

Of course there are limits to the current capacity, so multiple cells would be needed.

Also if this theory is correct we can start the cell tank circuit at the 180 volts and bypass the initially high current draws on the primary side.

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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2011, 19:22:33 pm »
Kiss the above theory goodbye.


I placed a meter directly across the cell today.  The voltage drop, therefor voltage reading, should decrease if the water is ionizing.

At low input voltage I am reading about 1.6 volts across the cell.

As I turn up the voltage I am reading 3.3 volts across the cell.

The 3.3volts across the cell was at 32 amps passing through.

So in all reality I can simply connect a 3.3 volt power supply directly to the cell and allow the 32 amps to pass, 105 watts.

The remaining power in the circuit is recycled by the tank setup however my system is taking 400 + watts to get this affect.


My tube cell has sprung some leaks - so maintenance is needed on that. 

I am really thinking of going back to series cells - as they have proven more efficient and simpler, just a battery, cells and wire.

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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2011, 20:55:37 pm »
Kiss the above theory goodbye.


I placed a meter directly across the cell today.  The voltage drop, therefor voltage reading, should decrease if the water is ionizing.

At low input voltage I am reading about 1.6 volts across the cell.

As I turn up the voltage I am reading 3.3 volts across the cell.

The 3.3volts across the cell was at 32 amps passing through.

So in all reality I can simply connect a 3.3 volt power supply directly to the cell and allow the 32 amps to pass, 105 watts.

The remaining power in the circuit is recycled by the tank setup however my system is taking 400 + watts to get this affect.


My tube cell has sprung some leaks - so maintenance is needed on that. 

I am really thinking of going back to series cells - as they have proven more efficient and simpler, just a battery, cells and wire.

Your conclusion is the same as mine.
As soon as the watercell starts to conduct, you talk about electrolysis.
Then you better use a drycell with strait or unregulated dc for better results.

But if you can prevent current to flow thru the cell, with very short bursts of volts, then maybe we come in the area of Meyer.
Maybe even with a low bias current......

Thanks for your results, WJ!

Steve



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Re: Different kind of VIC Circuit
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2011, 23:43:34 pm »
Hi, Did anybody try, using a PWM to power a neon DC Transformer ( 15KV  25milliamp) to get pulsed ,high Voltage to the Dry-Cell ? Would it produce HHO gas ?