Author Topic: AC electrolysis  (Read 23361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hidden

  • Administrator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3876
    • water structure and science
AC electrolysis
« on: August 28, 2009, 10:48:38 am »
Can it be done?
How efficient is this?
How does watermols react on such a system?

Please dump here your opinion.

br
Steve

Offline Hidden

  • Sr. member
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 14:29:13 pm »
i think it's of course possible, but the losses due to the much too high voltage are enormous. it's simple current electrolysis, but both hydrogen and oxygen are produced at the electrodes which is not the case with dc.

Offline Hidden

  • 50+
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 16:49:44 pm »
It seems like this is the next way to go , RF and reactance and all the impedance stuff only happens with AC . I am past the VIC with diode at this point .

This is not what puharich or Stephen was doing .

Offline Hidden

  • Sr. member
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 19:37:39 pm »
It seems like this is the next way to go , RF and reactance and all the impedance stuff only happens with AC . I am past the VIC with diode at this point .

This is not what puharich or Stephen was doing .
Reactance only happens with not-DC. Not only AC but also pulsed DC obviously. And impedance matching is just optimizing a circuit for minimal losses and maximum power or ruling out waveerrors in cables (reflexion and so on).

Offline Hidden

  • 50+
  • *
  • Posts: 84
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 13:28:21 pm »
I have tried to visualise what happens at the interface between the electrodes and water:

For a negative DC electrode:
A water molecule gains an electon from the electrode.
The enables 1 H atom to overcome the electronegativity of the water molicule and split off.
This leaves a neg. OH- ion in contact with the negativly charged plate.
As both are negative the OH- ion is repelled away from the electrode at extremely high speed.
Now there are billions of water molicules in the way, which the ion bumps into.
This causes the the kenetic energy of the ion to be changed into heat in the electrolyte.

Now picture what would happen If the electrode could be changed to positive extremly fast, before the negative ion leaves, or moves too far away:
The negative charge would be stripped off, adding power to the setup.
An extra electron would also be taken away; making a OH+ ion and perhaps splitting it into O and H?

So the question becomes:
How fast does the OH- ion move away from / break contact with, the negative electrode and thus how high does the AC frequency have to be to present a positve surface to said negative ion before this happens?

http://www.emsl.pnl.gov/news/highlights/zhang_weber20090714.pdf

From the link above it would seem that the ion moves away at an initial speed of around 2 million miles
in a minute!?

From this one can deduce that your AC frequency has to be insanely high for you to see any advantages to using AC.

Or perhaps the OH- ion bounces off the closest water molicule at a certain frequency and would then hit the electrode again if it were + at the right time?

 ???

So; whats the highest frequency AC one can produce?
 :)

Offline Hidden

  • 50+
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 20:27:49 pm »
Well in the patent app if those values shown are truthful , Stephen was using 600 hz main freq , but his cell ringing inductive kicks looked like 20 times that or more . It looks a bit like what stevie was having with his chips and what I see with a 555 with an inductive probe .

He uses 3 tubes ,remember , he also mentions something about "crossing the barrier" , he mentionned that in the interview and in the petent , he said what Stan did was figure out "a" way for the electrons to cross the barrier ??? ... I still am studying all his words to the letter .

Something about matching the electrical wavelenght of the electrodes , impedance matching of the water bath ( adaptive rf impedance matching ??) , and ringing effect ... All pretty straightforward from the looks of it lol ... At leats I know what I am hunting

Very touchy and complex eletrical and physical phenomenon but I am up for it , I think I can handle this eletrical stuff .
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 21:03:53 pm by Dankie »

Offline Hidden

  • Administrator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3876
    • water structure and science
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 23:13:16 pm »
Logic,

How high do you wanna go in frequency?
I think it can go up in ghz if you want to.

Steve

Offline Hidden

  • Sr. member
  • ***
  • Posts: 512
Re: AC electrolysis
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 05:59:12 am »
I have tried to visualise what happens at the interface between the electrodes and water:

For a negative DC electrode:
A water molecule gains an electon from the electrode.
The enables 1 H atom to overcome the electronegativity of the water molicule and split off.
This leaves a neg. OH- ion in contact with the negativly charged plate.
As both are negative the OH- ion is repelled away from the electrode at extremely high speed.
Now there are billions of water molicules in the way, which the ion bumps into.
This causes the the kenetic energy of the ion to be changed into heat in the electrolyte.

Now picture what would happen If the electrode could be changed to positive extremly fast, before the negative ion leaves, or moves too far away:
The negative charge would be stripped off, adding power to the setup.
An extra electron would also be taken away; making a OH+ ion and perhaps splitting it into O and H?

So the question becomes:
How fast does the OH- ion move away from / break contact with, the negative electrode and thus how high does the AC frequency have to be to present a positve surface to said negative ion before this happens?

http://www.emsl.pnl.gov/news/highlights/zhang_weber20090714.pdf

From the link above it would seem that the ion moves away at an initial speed of around 2 million miles
in a minute!?

From this one can deduce that your AC frequency has to be insanely high for you to see any advantages to using AC.

Or perhaps the OH- ion bounces off the closest water molicule at a certain frequency and would then hit the electrode again if it were + at the right time?

 ???

So; whats the highest frequency AC one can produce?
 :)

Stan Meyer referanced a decent patent ... lemme find that and see if it helps  brb